Read this: Swear Words and Hearing Loss on Radio 4

sounds music Radio podcasts BBC sounds music Radio podcasts and welcome to feedback comments from listeners recently about explicit and inappropriate language on BBC audio, so who better to discuss it within the editor responsible for deciding on and can't be heard on the airwaves and also be talking to the producer of a recent episode from the Illuminated series about hearing loss always gets comments are a few of swearing and inappropriate language on asking why there seems to be so much more of it the new used to be earlier in the series you might remember a call Jonathan pie in the 6th comedy Sloth on Radio 4 which got a record number of complaints to feedback about adult themes and language at tea time so are BBC's airwaves really more potty mouth and

And have weirder society changed in what way are offended B will be interesting to talk to the person at the BBC who makes those calls Roger money is head of standards for Radio 4 Radio 4 Extra and on-demand speech and transparency Rodger is also feedbacks commission executive of the comments about a range of programmes beginning with the recent anatomy of a cancellation.

Hi, it's Rob McBride from Ellesmere Shropshire I'm calling about shadow world anatomy of a cancellation.

I've never ever before complain to BBC Radio 4 listening as I do often when driving left open my absolutely disgusted to have such loud so early on in the day the book.

We're talking about his some kids.

I taught and what they taught me by writer and teacher Kate clanchy.

It's A Memoir about Kate 30.

Teaching English and poetry to students often from immigrant refugee and working-class backgrounds a storm blew up online and some of the language used in the book.

There is no justification for the c word and f word to be aired even if it is to get over and excessively emphasise one of your obsession subjects which is race and racism whoever made the decision to allow this feels to be aired this early in the morning needs a stern talking hello.

I'm Martin Hughes Jones from Tiverton it was a close run thing but I did listen to the whole episode of anatomy of a cancellation.

I'm not an old prude by any stretch.

I do plenty of swear on my own.

I know location I use all the swear words in the programme social media is peppered with far too many of them, but they are completely inappropriate.

9:30 a.m.

They had absolutely nothing to the understanding of the storyline.

I had racist emails threatening ones it was so my Instagram I discovered had an inbox that I didn't know about and there was a whole flood of messages in there.

We were just seen honestly three angry Brown women aggressively trying to destroy this woman who done all this wonderful work.

What's happened to us age of euphemisms and how many preschoolers and kids off school for the day will within earshot? These are very bad editorial decisions and the only diminish and impoverished the BBC in my eyes.

This is Austin from Stourbridge could feedback please rapid review its position on foul language.

It seems to be spreading across the babies.

Like Wildfire even rare earth that song radio for 14th of November is that it true the subject of parasitic and lemonade hitchhiking on crabs have necessarily involve mention of animal feces, but Tom Hanks phrase you eat my S8 starty the Tutors Lee employees a common swear word tone at the start of a new series, please.

Do what is possible to see this unpleasant have it? Thank you James Lancing the grass is singing by Doris lessing was recent Gaston for extra Mary Turner is found murdered on the veranda have farmstead her house, but we having confessed to the crime but he seems to have no motive the story is set in Rhodesia in the 1940s the period of racial Annie's and with very strong discriminatory language.

It was first brought out of here 2008 warning.

But I do think it's indefensible the m word was bleached or first-out when it was his multiple times in both parts of the drama.

See your own life and see yourself as if you are a different person then a person outside you as much as someone you might meet Like a Stranger on a station or in someone's house.

I don't even though it's a work of art of reminding people of a word that Society has agreed not to utter in public at least that's leaving aside the current atmosphere of raised racial sensitivity aside from that wonderful it was broadcast again home secretary Shabana Mahmood was the guest on political thinking Nick Robinson it was just after it's your night changes to the asylum system she quoted explicit racial language in the House of Commons Taylor Street she said the extent of the problem they were.

Old at heart and she repeated them on next podcast I think that telling the truth about what the scale of a problem.

Is is the first step you have to take before you can think about what the correct Salou and disappointed me very much that so many people in the house.

There's still a minority but you know that they were pretty vocal were wanting to suggest that wasn't a problem at all it in the face of every experience that I have my family has and if they're my constituents have as well, but they are called what we're not going to repeat Shabana Mahmood exact words here but we will pick up people without that abuse fnp word in your face.

Yes, and it has happened more in recent times to not just myself but Close family members.

I worry about headscarf wearing women in my family in particular.

I'm not alone in that every every Muslim I know these days.

What is a lot more about vocal.

Shouted at them in the street was also used on the Today programme including Shabana Mahmood quoting that racial slur in full it's not just racial abuse that listeners are a tune to Janet Jones from London has been collecting concerning language around disability.

I've learnt from recent reports of racist language used in there a racist terms BBC presenters quite rightly in my opinion and not allowed to use what's the BBC's policy regarding disabled slurs a complaint about the use of the offensive term withered arm on from our own correspondent this reminded me of previous complaints of mine on Sunday worship June 2024.

I heard the afflicted afflicted as a very offensive word and district disabled people shouldn't be dumped together in an undifferentiated group.

BBC Radio 4 master of the bleep Roger Marnie join Geordie night in the studio Rodger thanks so much for coming on the way back to give an overview of how the live programming aside for the moment with recorded programmes do producers have to make you aware of any swearing or racial abuse in a program.

How does it work for the strongest language program makers will always come and talk to Radio 4 and support that tends to be meeting about the language.

They want to include and we'll talk about why they want to include it and what the purpose of it is really list of swear words for abuse of terms, or is it up two producers to use their own judgement research and produce reports on how attitudes to language revolving and that's in that sort of ranks language, but that can be a slightly plants.

Tall is that so it's a bit of a guy to Burton

Everything comes down to the editorial purpose of the language and context it's wing used in and so you can't really should have just gone a single list you have actually judge everything on the on the facts of the case in front of you bloody in this interview does my long-suffering producer have to come and tell you about her daughter's that no no no no no you're not everyone will agree with so is it you then that makes that decision when a producer comes to you as to what stays in and what gets yeah? I will take a view on it and and and make the decision.

I will let the controller no for the strongest language as well.

So it will know about it and if he's got any explain the thinking to expert ultimately yes on a day-to-day basis, and I'm the person who needs a strong talking to me as I think Robert Abbott is there is there a

Balance across the week for example if you've got one very scary programme we had the anatomy of a cancellation recently.

Do you try and make sure that there isn't another similar similarly swear reprogramming that same slaughter across the day one of the things.

I should say it's for a comfortable with that we accept that those who dislike strong language.

Really dislike it and that comes across in some of the reactions.

We've been hearing and so we want to make sure that across the day in across a week plenty of contents that is there for people we all different sensitivities and all different concerns, so you've made it quite clear that there isn't a hard and fast rule here, but do you end up in a situation where you've got a producer a teams with thank you look really really need to use this language for this racial slur because of this reason.

You're single now.

I don't know I'm not sure I'm not sure that actually quite meet the threshold that can happen.

We try and discuss it and then put forward their reasons and sometimes.

I'll be persuaded what it's doing for us there other times you just have to say no actually and the threshold varies don't forget the threshold at 10 at night is different to the 9 in the morning.

So you know sometimes you just have to say I'm sorry you're just scheduled in the wrong place.

That's what's the time in front of me.

I think I've often and up staying on on this program is no watershed there isn't the coloured 9 p.m.

Watershed that there is on television, but are you aware and do you think about the fact that children are listening at certain times in the day didn't suggest the children don't listen to Radio 4 in big numbers and even when you're available to do so they may just be there so the difference is that.

If we are putting out language like that at a time when children might just be around we will work harder to inform the audience.

So they can take her a view about this is the sort of thing they want to be listening to bearing in mind who else might be in the house and I mean to go onto anatomy of a cancellation it had the standard announcements at the meaning of of the program and this was 9:30 in the morning the strong language doesn't come to that 20-25 minutes into the program.

So the presenter Katie Rosemary goes to some length then to all explain in her generation in the programme that there are some very strong language coming up cos we do accept that people come and go at that time of the day and may not hear the Startup program so tuning in and out all the time is there a hierarchy of swear words.

I mean of interviewed comedy writers particularly once you're doing these days at 6:30 slot on Radio 4 and they talk about maybe having to trade to other.

Sort of lower grade swear words to get a big expletif in it's not really the weight work horse-trading like that, but one of the considerations is that there is a cumulative effect which language is here impact so a single use of a a a piece of strong language may pass unnoticed if you put three or four of them together across the program.

It might be noticed if they come with in a minute then the impact on the on the listener tends to be much stronger are writing to us to say that there's a lot more swearing that used to be that certainly how they feel is that a perception or is that actually the case? I don't think any of this is particularly new before coming to talk to you.

I look back at it was very notable with John Lennon and his legendary tapes with jam.

When are the founder of Rolling Stone which was broadcast on Radio 4 and included the fair?

Records in the first 15 minutes at 9 in the morning that was almost 20 years ago.

I mean what we do it for us.

We have programs that reflect the world as it is and so language and the way people speak evolves that will be reflected in our output that we can point to things like the colour casual use of language or something like that might not have been used before and perhaps that is just a society is changing.

I mean we want informal and authentic voices out of present as well.

So perhaps.

You know they relax a little bit more and you might get things that you might consider at the lower end of course nes30 perhaps want to copy for most of us are many of us might be a bit more talent with swearing and we used to be less tolerant with Rachel and

I need a particularly a well-known example recently when the Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood she was talking to Nick Robinson for his podcasts thinking it was also used on the Today programme used an expletive and a racial slur in full which I'm not going to repeat but I think that if you know that her family came originally from Pakistan you'll guess what it is and she did it to illustrate abuse that she receives done.

It was quite powerful and when I heard it the first thing.

I thought I better end up talking about this on feedback was used on the Today programme.

I wonder as it doesn't live was it something that you thought I'd and considers before it went out.

Yes, I've been consulted about it with political thinking and also had a conversation with The Newsroom about the use of the clipper using that language in The Commons I mean you're absolutely right when we talk about how language has evolved over the years.

There's no doubt that the increasing sensitivity is about discriminatory language.

So what we're trying to do is balance the Lister clear putting the story across with avoiding unnecessary offence and the key were there is unnecessary.

We know that when you use that language some people be offended by but is sufficient editorial purpose and you might say what you could describe the language, but I think that Junior journalistic.

Do you would say there's an emotional impact that comes from actually bring the words and I think this was not just for Shabana Mahmood but it also goes for anatomy of a cancellation where that was a story very much about quick descent incivility in a very very in Trench positions on a highly divisive arguments surrounding Kate clanchy book and for the people hurt from

This discussion for Rob and the Martin who were very upset by it and understand to be so that sort of the point there after the radio with trying to convey the impacts on individuals of it popping up in your social media feed and you or appearing in your inbox aimed at you and if it was highly abusive and you get that more than actually hearing the words than just have been told that there was abusive language social mores perhaps change does this give you an old programme something when they're rebroadcast there is language sometimes that perhaps it would have been acceptable at one stage which we really are uncomfortable with today and I'm thinking of that sing peace the grass is singing it was a long time ago was first broadcast in 2020 on again recently but we had listeners to just felt that it wasn't.

Usable or defensible to use the n word when it wasn't bleeped or or Thursday even though it was an intrinsic part of the drama and of the time yeah, well, I think the point where it was an intrinsic part of the drama in the time.

It's a drama about 1940s Rachel politics in in Rhodesia and the language there is authentic to it and what are lines say is that we can reflect Prejudice where it is this but we shouldn't perpetuate it so the question for us whenever using any racial language and that comes with Shabana Mahmood is does this appear to condone it and in the in the audiences understanding of the setting of Doris lessing and you're talking about the first novel by Nobel prize-winning author here.

I think they said understand the purpose of his servant.

There is not to say normalise it but to authentically.

What was going on in Rhodesia at that time we don't hear the beliefs as much as we used to do it where we can strong language is important to the story and because it was in anatomy of a cancellation or actually it's not so important that you need to hear it.

You probably don't need anything I suppose the exceptions are in comedy.

You will have bleaching.

I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue because actually what you need to know is that the performer you was making this rated swearing exactly what they said.

It doesn't really matter just the fact that they they will sort of so exasperated or reacted in an over-the-top way that and that's the bleep there were actually the language itself doesn't matter it.

Just matters that there was some language of editorial standards for coming onto feedback and if you'd like to.

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Whenever you like a program following the Paul Farley's discovery of his own hearing loss was part of the Illuminated series on Radio 4 recently the programme with him to get it and try out new hearing aids.

Big impression on two listeners who got into three cheers for Paul Foley and Julia Donaldson raising the profile feature on the 23rd of November episode of illuminated I have of late wherefore I know not lost my ability to hear properly in public spaces like this one.

I hope it encourages more people to get their ears tested age related hearing loss and have been for 20 years as soon as I insert the eggs every morning the sound of the radio clarifies and it feels like magic BBC radio reception is usually fantastic except when the music and I don't think it was helpful for those of us with hearing loss trying to follow the dialogue clearly when some of the sound muffled.

This is cramped up on me anyway.

It's noisy like a cafe or anywhere.

There's lots of reflective services find me really having to lean into the to cut my hair or try to work out what they saying by body language gestures induction Loops to be mandatory for brilliant is the induction loop and you switch it to that when you run a venue, but has this wonderful thing called the induction loop you know if your to Theatre however far away the actors Claire Isabelle into your ears if the person's I do right next to you and a fact.

I think every public place by law should have it, but they don't I'm afraid I have given up going to the cinema and literary festivals and I avoid noisy cafes programs like this, please.

I mean that entertainment zone waiting to go in my used tested and sitting in an optician's are on the bike frames and I'm used to this position since I was 78 years old and I test theory test today.

I've no idea what to expect on the 23rd of November was brilliant.

I'm walking to the shop now.

Just confusing I cannot open the hearing aids of waterproof didn't occur to me to ask Jack about that kind encouraging programme about 30 years old be back well.

I am doing just that because joining me night is Geoff Burns his producer of hearing loss just thanks so much for coming onto feedback and the poet Paul Farrell work together.

I believe for quite a long time.

So did he come to you with the idea? Did you know already that he was struggling with his hearing.

I didn't know that he was struggling with hearing and it was one thing about working with the presenter over a long period you can come up with ideas in the car and the way to interviews and stuffing but this one was very much for that pulls saying here's the thing is going I think there might be a program on it and so all credit to him.

It was one of those stories that seems very small at first and it's very personal and illuminators a great space on Radio 4.

That's what is a great space for those kind of tiles to to flourish.

I think just one off very intimate very personal little story.

Hopefully have the power to connect with Geoff was one of the purposes of the program to try and courage other people to get a hearing test.

Do you think that might do that? It wasn't the Direct purpose dancing these kind of programs work very well, she going with her with a flight to fly if you like it, so but you know we wanted people to have a think and actually the week after it went out.

I went in and book a hearing test for myself, but then cancel because I've too busy but I am going to go and get a hearing test because you know it's very simple very straightforward and think what you hear Paul's reaction at the end.

Just how transformative it is to have these things to put in place and his hearing restored you think benefits of that incredible for such a small amount of effort and you know they're on the NHS these the whole process was free and he's always a great.

A real lover of birds and bird song and he to be able to hear bird song at the end, it was an absolute revelation 2 will not revelational just a return to his younger self and you were saying all about him being a poet and I love working with people with a pirate extensibility as presenters because you know what do with quotidien things as Paul does poems but would you got somebody like Paul and some other people I work with of that kind of mindset they can just take a little turn and suddenly your bank and he's imagining listening to the universe and it's just those kind of little steps to the side but for me thrilling as a producer and every kind of thing that I can I couldn't provide if I was in his shoes.

That's why I think it may have scored with people because you've got a combination of something that affect a lot of people that is very ordinary in.

Possible sense of the word but told with that kind of ion something more human a more sensitive and more quality.

Thank you so much for coming the feedback and you can hear at the whole of the Illuminated collection on BBC signs next week.

I'll be taking a look at this year's reflectors controversial before they even aired does a special archive on for celebrating the 70th anniversary of from our own correspondent over this weekend, so do get in touch with your comments and I will put them to the team next week.

Well.

That's all from me for this week.

Thank you so much for listening and giving us your feedback from BBC Radio 4 uncanny.

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