Read this: How do we fix the BBC?

Sounds music Radio podcasts hello, I'm Kimberley Wilson psychologist and in my new Park Complex I'll be your guide through all the information and misinformation that out there about mental health.

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I'm Katie razzall.

Hello.

This is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome this week.

We need to talk about the BBC it's not the director-general Nico of news on the same day that never happened before no have we ever seen the president of America threatening to Sue the BBC for a billion dollars and all of this is the BBC

Is fundamental questions about how it fits into a radically change media landscape and as it head into negotiations with the government over its future funding on today's edition of the media show we're going to know how it came to this and you and I you to a much greater extent than being wrestling with this story for BBC News how do you find covering Media stories when it's also covering colleagues about this before it is always strange for that reason covering colleagues your own employer but that does just come with the job as it does on this show this one's punishing will I have felt it punishing because although my rule is always you treat BBC stories like any other stories and also aware that there is a huge amount of upset inside the BBC for many Newsroom is a feeling that negative things are being said about BBC journalism and they feel that that is on fair, but the way I just here.

It is my job is to report accurately what has unfolded I'm going to keep that going to the gym.

Today's programme where we are going to focus on the BBC and I guess it's briefest form this story involved pressure building on the BBC through the year did not least because the BBC with a doctor about Gaza and the Bob Dylan broadcast at Glastonbury and the last week the Telegraph publishes a leaked memo this was written by an independent editorial advisor to the BBC's editorial stance someone who subsequently left at Roll It details our range of concerns including about a Panorama broadcast last year and how did edited a 2021 Donald Trump speech concerned of institutional groupthink and all week after the telegraph pub story the BBC said next to nothing then on Sunday director-general Tim Davie and see you at news Deborah Turness resigned, so there is a great deal to consider.

We need to look at BBC governance at BBC competence of BBC decision-making and the BBC culture and

Do that we are joined Now by John Shield he was seen a senior managing director to format that the former director of communications at the BBC someone was and I have dealt with many times on BBC One is over the years also Jamie Angus is former senior news controller at the BBC former director of the world service and former editor of the Today programme is currently living in the US and is a trustee Henry Jackson Society and we're joined who in the studio by to Montgomery podcast and creator of Conservative home and Jane martinson, author and journalist as well as being a better at City University and Jane is covered the BBC extensively for the Guardian if we can with Jamie and John first start with you.

What do you think as well look? I think looking at this is a story where you know that the Telegraph has this memo you know it's contents.

You know it's highly damaging.

You know that there are claims that you would want to refuse and equally you know that there's a piece of journalism in terms of the documentary that I think you pretty much except is a piece of editing.

I think you would want to start from a place where you immediately upon the fact that this is wrong the you accept that that you own the mistake.

That's been made you set out what you're doing about it and if you disagree with the rest of the memo that you set out.

Why you disagree with it and are you saying when you say you love him in the BBC but are you saying before even it gets to being published in the UK if you get an email like that sent to all the members of the board.

Which looks rather like a press release I think you'll notice that this is likely in some form or other to become a public quite quickly and you can be fairly assured that the destination that it ends up is not going to be a media outlet that instant interview wants to give you a hug, so I think all the the ingredients for this is going to be a challenging moment or in red lights right in front of you from the get go so you're saying if you'd been still here you've been saying this is quite likely to leak we need to get ahead of it.

I think it's it doesn't take any special wisdom for me to say that it's a basic that if you are confronted with something that's significantly critical and you know there is an issue in there and you might want to contest the rest of it.

That you would immediately commissioner line by line analysis of the entire document going over here the fact that evidently not everyone in the the agreed on what it should say and that's one of the reasons it didn't say something as quickly as it might have done shortly.

I mean sometimes big organisations getting agreement on can be challenging, but I think the clock is ticking the the media doesn't wait or give you the convenience of the length of time in order to decide what you're going to do and I think that you need to get there and be aware of what the critical moment.

It is and it was quite evident what that was and certainly I think if they couldn't agree then you know lock them in the Rumen and get there if I could bring you in at this point.

What was alluding to the two there was.

The sense that both of us and many people have picked up which was that when it comes very specifically to the Edit of the Donald Trump speech in Panorama that there was a different opinion about whether that edit was alright or not.

We now know obviously the BBC's come to the position which is it's apologised for it but through these months where it was brought up it appears to be a new executives.

Thought it was ok and I wonder how you can explain that.

Can you explain that as somebody who's worked at the BBC I think this is a failure of governance as well as a failure by the executive.

So it's right that the editing of the panoramic.

It was highly misleading and one of the important point is that from Samir Shah zone statement this week, we know that they knew about this as long ago was February of this year and I think it's really important governance question about white took from February till November for this to be resolved and you.

The reasons for that was because the executive didn't think it was a significant mistake worth retracting which I and I think lots of other observers disagree with blue so I think it's a wider issue about defensiveness culture within the BBC the 10cc legitimate well Thought through criticism as Max by quote bad actors and honestly.

I've been guilty of this myself in my long career in the BBC is very easy to fall into this kind of siege mentality feeling well, if we can see you on there, then is going to turn into a long rang about something else and anyway the people saying this want to destroy us at the BBC I think that was also a factor in this certainly in effective thinking and arguably in the reason that it took such a long time to get to the outcome that we got two wouldn't it? Cost of just a bit a lot easier to retract Panorama in February would have been a 24-hour.

You cycle and broadly could have gone with dealing with somebody arguably more important issues in the microscope.com who ran for so long at the BBC would it have been a simple as that if they had retracted it at that point and said we made a mistake or if they were thinking of doing that then what would your advice have been will not I think you're much better owning your mistakes rather than other people owning them for you because at least you get the opportunity to say what you're doing and why you're doing it.

I think in comms there is always a debate about the quality of the journey.

So if you think you know what the Final Destination is just get there quickly and get there decisively and I think that's really really important.

Obviously I wasn't there and I'm not going to say what if I've been there it will be different but I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but I do think it would have been.

definitely better to have acted sooner and acted decisively at the beginning of the week and I think that could have led to some different outcomes complexities behind that I don't know and I don't understand so I'm quite surprised so one dimension of this is about how the BBC

Reach the composition and then spoke to the outside world about it your suggestion.

It could perhaps of Reach that composition earlier Jamie you've mentioned Jamie Angus you've mentioned the issue of governance and just to explain to her listening the BBC is run by the director-general and his senior team including the sea of news, but their work is overseen by the BBC Bordon it's job is to ensure that the BBC is meeting its mission and its public person overall when all the positions are filled.

It's 14 strong with 5 the chair and for non-executive directors being political appointees Monday after the resignations of the director-general and the CEO of news the day before I spoke to the chair Samir Shah who leads the board am I asked him if he thought they were forces were to destroy the BBC as some had already been suggesting.

No, I do not actually that's a fanciful interpretation or what happens if the board I make it clear that.

The Boathouse can I say you are not be able to choose a border group think it really does have a diversity of views as there are in the public in the conference board represents a public exactly is the price for the board has differences of opinion and quite strong.

He has Anthony showers also asked about this on all staff call on Tuesday one person pointed the BBC's values which include truck and a commitment to independence and impartiality and asked if the board adhered to them to me.

Shall I suggested even the question was slightly disrespectful which may come as a surprise to BBC journalist to spend their time asking questions that people with power submission as we heard in that clip.

Also emphasise that he wants different views on the board and that they are people who care about BBC and it's values and Tim Montgomerie let's bring you in at this point.

Do you have an issue with the Governance of the BBC the way it's structure of the way this works?

First bus to say about I think the BBC has been quite fortunate and I think it's been in this program is up, how much do trump story has dominated over the other and actually I think trump drawings of two mistake.

It was a breach of them good editorial practice, but some of the advert at more underlying issues that therefore haven't been talked about like quantitative Culture in the BBC on issue.

Like trans people who have a strong view on the transition the underlying issue, and this is what I think the BBC has put itself into a general problem started with climate change which is understandable cos of the science, but they taken positions on race and sexuality issues in tune with the sort of course.

That's come identity politics cold has kind of American university and that is the real issue and and where to go if you don't address that all the second.

Tins of a governor if you don't have your philosophy right Ros who is the management of that philosophy as a question and we'll talk about the culture of the BBC in this allegation of institution in a minute and I should say on the one of the issues you mentioned the BBC says on the review of sex and gender identity the editorial guidelines and standards committee noted much of the coverage met the BBC standards of impasse and accuracy and I also know that you don't agree with that Tim but on the the broader issue of how the BBC is governed.

Are you comfortable with the fact that some of those on the BBC board are political appointees in some of them had known political positions different politicians have different temperaments and Robin Gibb and either conservative appointment.

Have a good history plastova, Iain Duncan Smith's leadership personalities who go out to fight battles and other people build consensus and so I'm message.

Whether someone is over blue colour red colour, but if you have on a board that where people need to work together you have a pugilistic attitude.

That is what I will concern me in on that there are people of the sea is the stories on folded who have raised the issue of the board and the political appointments to the board I wonder how you read it and what weather you have issues with it.

I do have issues of political appointments and actually liked it has left alright.

I feel that this really at the moment the BBC was 100 years ago by Royal to be as far removed from government and Westminster because it is paid for by everybody in this country.

I also I really think I agree with what John and he was saying this was a failure to act whether it came in February or indeed in May when it went to the Standards Board and there was a report on it by Jonathan Munro or indeed ASDA

List of someone who understands the news cycle come Monday if the Telegraph is flashing on this story you have to get that answer out quickly it was about which is why the focus is partly been on that and so the fact that I understand it.

I think actually the head of needs did say right.

That's apologise.

Let's quickly say this is what happened.

There was not everyone agreed of Samir Shah not everyone agreed on the board and that's me as a failure and actually because what you need to do for the good of an organisation is make a decision make it quickly and get it out, but I just want to jump in here because you're and all of us focused on the Donald Trump edit the amputation as you're well.

No, it's not just around the Edit it's about how that it has to use one word.

That's been used been weaponized and the allegation Katie and you've talked about the

BBC news coverage is the is the people are trying to find out was it simply about a bad mistake that the BBC is owning or is the board trying to achieve the goal yes, I'm just going to say this is something that has been talked about across the airwaves at people have accused the BBC have been to self obsessed and looking in the wrong area on actually should be a dressing in whether it is institutional bias and addressing those questions, but certainly is true that some people have been saying clearly what it looks like is that the board lost confidence in its head of news and weather that had taken place over a long process.

It looks as if it had based on the fact that these issues around Donald Trump's the around Donald Trump had been raised for when they felt that they were in the answers 14 coming in it in terms of an apology but when it got to you know the last few days and the fact that as we understand it the news people the head of news wanted.

Apology out and was stopped from doing that by the board the questions are whether the did that because they had a better sense of how it should be done which was wait answer all the questions not just about it, but also about the other claims being made or whether it was a deliberate position too well.

Take a view that that that that would be I don't know the end might need to the departure of the news boss and that's the Debate that's the Debate around the narrative that we've heard I guess my question to you Jane is which narrative do you find most persuasive speaking to your contacts? I think you know I have to go onto the desk what team had said which to me.

He looks like getting a philosophy ride to me the BBC philosophy which is in destroying it shelter is the BBC to produce please that is accurate and the best of their ability in parcel, which means equal treatment and fair so those issues that he mentioned.

They are we are living in an incredibly.

Having to deal with matters like not climate actually that's not but the issue of Israel and Gaza and the trans rights debate even President Trump there I say it could be divisive figures that use social media to impact the way people think that is not to say that the BBC has not made the state of course there but to me those these principles are in shrine dinner in a charger and the BBC beyond actually any other news organisation in the world actually.

I mean you know we are arguing further sort of failures of an organisation and I'm actually in first they have so made mistakes over this but I also what the danger.

It's in having this discussion is we focused too much on the party allergy or otherwise BBC journalist who do more than any other journalism organisations around the world and

Which every single Trust barometer believes is the best able to provide trusted after at knees and Jane and John first if I brought you back.

We keep on the board for a little bit and your experience inside the working inside the BBC How Did it work.

Did you have concerns about the board? Did you how often would you hear from them? So I spent a lot of time with the BBC board and indeed presented and talk through many difficult and challenging issues with them and I always found that they were willing to have those debates and ask intelligent questions and be constructive around that so I'm not going to go off and criticise individual board members what I would say more broadly is the the lifeblood of the BBC is Trust

And impartiality and accuracy and I think the BBC is not an organisation.

That's kind of you know making tins of beans or something disrespect people it is making programs and it's making content and there are there a full of Oedipus Complex editorial issues and decisions.

I think the board could be strengthened by having more program makers more editorial figures on that and I think one of the one of the things that is a challenge for any chair at the BBC is they have a very little room for manoeuvre in terms of making still at bored so you have an effect has a chair where most of the seats at the table are already taken and you've got to ask weather in the long term the right or appropriate sounds like much of the public sectors to me that take over Wilde apartments.

That's another question.

There's a question about who's on the board and whether it's the right mix.

There's also the question of the experience.

Is working within BBC journalism of the board Jamie Angus you held a number of senior roles at BBC News tell us about your interactions with the board if indeed you have them.

I did have Direct in touch with individual board members on individual stories and I didn't object that actually I bought it wasn't inappropriate although.

I think other people inside the BBC disagree.

I think the bigger issue.

Though is the board setup in such a way now that will allow the BBC to achieve what it needs to go over the next 3 to 5-years.

We are going into a Charter review period in a period of immense turn well and a lack of leadership at the BBC we have your correct me if I'm wrong Ross and Katie but I believe the chairman is still a part-time non-executive chairman of the BBC is now an appropriate structure should be moved to a structure where the BBC has a full-time executive chairman who looks much more intently at the longer-term strategic implications of

She's going round charter renewal is Finding its position in the market is international operation and a director general who like who does a more manageable job which is to run your organisation day today and chief and CEO I think one of the things that this whole and Repair has brought to a head is that the current structure possibly doesn't work and themselves are impossible as they are currently structured.

I think now is a good time to think about that.

I think there's a lot in that.

I mean if you think about the director general job and Tim Davies have on his plate where you have massive disruption in the industry new entrance disinformation culture walls society that struggles to agree on anything and Wear of course.

It's always a delight if your employer an organisation full of journalists and train them to ask difficult questions they tend to ask about the leadership of the organisation.

It's been really difficult and I think if you look back in history, which can be informative sometimes you know Mark Thompson did have a deputy who ran all of journalism and a few other things whose job it was to supplement the director-general and make sure you're across all of these issues and I think there is there is some sense in that of course there isn't a free hand on all these things because of the charter actually defines the job descriptions here.

We should probably say at this point in the media.

Show that we ask for a BBC take part in today's programme the BBC declined which means after 10 days of this crisis the BBC chair is giving one interviews that right Katie yes, and it's to you so that's available on the BBC website says listening want to watch it bag the director-general spoke prefix reporters outside the BBC and has done an internal all staff call but there was no interview Johnny you surprised that we've had one.

Executive interview in 10 days of a crisis like this.

I think ultimately you said right at the beginning of this conversation.

How did we how do we get here? I think the next logical conversations.

How do you get out and I think that involves displaying confidence going out and making the case for the PC being absolutely clear that where there are errors and issues.

They will be addressed that people will be accountable more importantly that the leadership of this organisation will fight for its future will do so vigorously and I think it will have lots of people outside cheering them on what I would people to do is is it's really easy to fall into a narrative of there are goodies and there are bad is and that's comforting as an out of because you can you can take it you can take a competent view you have to.

The reality of what you're facing and go out there and make the case what I would say I think we need to move on now to something that Tim Montgomerie raised earlier and talk more indeed about it because of course story begins with a memo that Michael Prescott a former independent advisor to the BBC's editorial standards committee wrote.

They got leaked and in it he raises concern about the BBC's approach on certain subjects trans issues being one of them as Tim mention israel-gaza being another Deborah Turness was asked about this as she walked into the BBC the morning after her resignation on trump on anti-semitism on women's right.

I'm sure that but for now.

I'm going to go and see you.

Everton essaying BBC News is not institutionally buyers you've already outlined why you think in some cases, it is tell us more quite often after I've done BBC programme cost to fill in a questionnaire to my gender and ethnicity etc has been and what kind of school I went to but actually the BBC's right organisations to deliver diversity because if you have a balance of people in a room you get different and more informed views, but it's a very narrow form of diversity of the BBC is pursued in the morning like lots of institutions.

It's been about the external characteristics rather than Bath background education religion really help determine our understanding of society and the BBC could say it's not institutionally bust.

She know exactly who you having your newsrooms whether you actually have an unexpected systematic bastard the kind of person that you haven't in anime all be able to salary of a gender have a viewing I think I saw this particular during the EU referendum when and a flagship programmes including Newsnight basically had thinking the same and that can't be healthy isn't the point of impartiality Saturday eyes again this thing that I have to accept that everybody has some sort of bias all but the point of being impossible Genesis you make sure that you reflect all views that you think about other people's perspectives and make sure they are reflected so what you're saying is the BBC isn't doing that BBC would not serve acceptable for a group of white men to sit together to the time to stand black women but it does that or doesn't.

With a whole range of I'm only asking the BBC to go to The Logical next step of where it's been for some time on some measures of diversity and when it when you experience at the BBC were there some subjects were there was clearly a prevailing perspective.

Did you see bias? How does it manifest itself your answer to the question depends on pre-existing by that I mean I think the the BBC's institutional biases and much less to do with party politics and political issues and much more to do with Society and you know I think the BBC has struggles much more for example with how it's reported trans rights and gender critical views trouble much more with issues around the right to die reproductive rights visa issues that are not naturally party political, but there are very clear biases in The Newsroom based.

Slice of society of people who work in the BBC news from an ongoing take us into that because when you were in senior roles in the BBC newsroom the trans at this story is a trans issues with becoming more and more prominent and more and more heavily discuss, so you were right in the room as the BBC was working out how it's going to cover this story.

Why do you think the BBC and your view struggled on occasions struggle and I honestly I'm not helping myself up.

We will struggle to this with despite intentions.

I think the BBC should never be in the Vanguard of pushing societal change write the BBC should reflect the broader majority of where most of its audiences to the time why reflecting when there is a kind of disagreement about Society issues, but it should never be the organisation that is pushing the transformation of other Society

On political issues or on some of these kind of culture and wider Society issues, and I think it's difficult sometimes when certainly you know youngest are coming to be in to BBC News there are probably and about changing the society they live in Bay see that as a legitimate public service journalism the BBC has to strike a balance between allowing people to express their Enthusiasm back questions of identity for example and also retaining its views a public broadcaster for which people are forced to pay that it should never be the organisation that is pushing change on any issues and Jane martinson.

Do you think he is guilty of having push those sorts of issues, it should mean about absolutely it should be pushing it but surely the job of the journalist and the job that because he was trying to do was reflect issues like the trans debate that my goodness.

I mean it divided.

55 friends, so they got it wrong and at times absolutely they did but I really really struggle with the idea that the BBC work for as a whole were actually trying to push an agenda weather on trams Society has changed a group of men are asked to discuss what it's like to be a woman and lots of people and the BBC's are universal service and must must try to reflect different views or obviously another way so I go back to the jewellers in the journalism has to try to be as accurate as impartial as it can we are living in a difficult am I think they need to reflect the changes they get it wrong sometimes absolutely the definitely shouldn't be pushing it and I don't think to me the average age of a other BBC employer.

They were pushing an agenda and that the people in this building testify to that the felt that one side and actually been suppressed is partly because we don't see Justine in to BBC it's been in a lot of employment and other human resource at legislation overrule affecting all companies that she knows to institutions and organisations that promote certain thought that's ok.

If you're selling with kids, but that should your news organisation has profound implications and I just want to reiterate what I said earlier that on the review of sex and gender identity at the BBC shares its editorial guidelines and standards committee noted much of the coverage make the BBC standards mashallah teeth much and accuracy now.

We have demonstrating an awful.

Lot to talk about in today's programme about the BBC situation and next we must talk about Donald Trump he's threatening to Sue the BBC 4 1 billion dollars over that panorama.

And was asked about this on Fox News and they've admitted top hair salon, Westhoughton Tina Brown legendary magazine editor for the New Yorker Vanity Fair and other publications in about now right to substitute cold fresh hell, and she's joining si Tina thank you very much for being on the media show I wonder how this story is being framed in the US medium well.

I mean people here hugely and boring and dispensing of the BBC but it doesn't have the same obviously powerful connection that it does 2222 British people have grown up with it as they do.

So although he didn't obviously start this sort of scandal and friends as it were in The Daily Telegraph did and now he's a great job for him to drive through and turn this into one of the issues that he can own because for him.

It's another part of his kind of assault frankly on reputable media and truth which is really one of his particular campaign so he doesn't all the time which is undermining as it were you no truth for serious journalism and calling it and propaganda.

You know buyers all the things that he feels so stretched his own.

You'll be well aware that the CEO of BBC News and design on Sunday had big ambitions for BBC news in America do you think this story could impact that I think it will probably help it in the sense that.

You know there's a desperate lying right now in America for and another news outlet that they feel is trustworthy.

Is it parcel and just give them the news and it's there's a big opportunity for the BBC in America I believe because there's been so much disruption in the American media with you know change of ownership and and and hysterical lectures to the right and all the rest of it back for a change and M M out this so I think I think she does did have a big opportunity here.

I don't think it will look perfect in a damaging way.

No, I think it probably make people are more interested in it and he knows the number of high-profile publications and media businesses.

I wonder how you approach the issue of risk within the and listen that you were overseeing.

I mean I absolutely agree that was made in the editing of that editing 101 that you don't splash together quotes from different.

An interview without imprint between them or interior camera flash or something that shows you you're taking parts for a different place, so that wasn't very bad, but you know that would be down the director-general of the BBC and the pair of you know it was just a sloppy very very soppy video editing.

I think the one of the problems for the BBC has just been the slowness of ability to deal with each one of these problems that gets thrown it away.

It's a very unreliable frankly sort of Communications operation.

It doesn't seem to get a lift problems.

Speak out the same we have this problem with it was edited badly for which week really apologise boom move on nothing to see here as it work, but they're always done it dragging back foot you're dragging so slowly along that the thing takes fire in Andover so I think there is actually I never thought of the BBC really ought to be that they have to create.

Actually with much more nimble responses to complaints and and scandals because it's going to be every 5-minutes East India tea company somewhere in the Empire somebody something terrible just too big to be able to police everything that's going on.

Thank you.

Yes, I know you need to go that's Tina Brown live with his team is newsletter is called freshhel.

Thank you to come back on the media show on Tuesday impossible.job just to be clear.

It's not and it's a job that I believe is one of the but I wouldn't change a thing I have no regrets.

I'm so proud of you.

I wouldn't change a thing no regrets said Tim Davie but this moment at the BBC's in does ask profound questions about the BBC's current state and its future because we have to remember.

Trust is it says on RBC branches is the Foundation of the BBC it's one of the corporations values and discussions are now beginning to ramp up about the BBC's charter which runs out at the end of 2027 so let's just have in the final minutes of the programme question to all of you briefly.

Why does this matter should we start with you Jane what time does it matter because the news is provided by billionaires with an agenda.

Not living anywhere near the UK we BBC to provide proper in Barcelona service for every one of us living in Britain joined.

Thank you.

What about you as you've seen this story play out.

What is the prize if you like? What are the possible better outcome for you when I lived briefly in in America I became much bigger fan of the BBC of the was at home and I said I was struggling America by the lack of a national conversation.

And when I came back to her Britain from of how to be more positive not so well, and I think that is the biggest problems of the licence that we can all go to the internet and Tim international for different products if you've got those problems as challenges if you better had a reputation on certain sections you're making life difficult and so Tina Brown no love to cross-examine example.

She gave the splicing of the trump tape.

I just wondered if it was an issue rights and the objects and there was a sympathy in the overall.

We're not going to do it now turned the conversation between you and Tina is one I want to hear so perhaps we can do it again on them as we got a couple of minutes left one minute from you Jamie Amazon why this matters the United States president has overnight shattered all of the Americas in.

News broadcasting from the voice of America downwards the BBC World Service remains almost alone now in the world and vital source of information for people in multiple languages including BBC4 course always travel the world and Sudan Yemen elsewhere the arabic-speaking will the BBC World Service really significant funding challenges, they need to get resolved a part of my fancy settlement and that really matters to the rest of the world and John Shield yeah, I agree with what people have been saying and I think the BBC is a hugely valuable.

I think it sits at the centre of our creative Industries which are wild beating I think we should be investing in it that we should yes address the issues Terrace this is a fantastic organisation that brings us together and I think as a country we need to focus Evermore on the importance of institutions.

Just in the minute.

We got left in what would reform your support.

Phone number for motorway phone government do with the BBC basically leave it alone because this is that wasn't a fan of the BBC in the 80s.

She left the public support for something champion this week, because it is a popular organisation form of just to let the market forces in the globalisation of the media put pressure on the beauty to be better rather than to take it on directly see your news resign.

What's the next moment in the story with looking out for the DJ still here and he said he'll be here for some time overseeing transmitted to transition.

I would say it is going to take many months to find somebody to take on that job.

It could be a year until someone is in position meanwhile the charter review is up those conversations being had so there's a lot swirly.

The moment had I sent in the short-term as a select committee coming up in which we will hear from some of those people and indeed Michael Prescott who wrote that memo Jamie Angus and Jane Martin Anthony Brown thank you very much indeed that is it for this edition of the media shape.

Thank you very much indeed for listening.

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Thank you.

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