Read this: Play for Today relaunch, diversity in advertising, streaming consolidation, Bettany Hughes and Treasures of the World

Sounds music Radio podcasts welcome back to the home of the oxymoron.

Enjoy it BBC sounds.

Hi, I'm Katie and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 programme takeovers in the US streaming industry, and how they affect what we will watch and after a political round season MP accused of racism we take a look at the factor round represent.

In advertising, but we're going to start with a dramatic comeback the BBC play for today was once the beating heart of British television drama pretty write a lead and the challenge the status Quo now Channel 5 is reviving the format with for new single dramas taking everything from school burnout to retirement rebellion joining me to talk about our actors Nigel Havers and Anita Dobson who star in never too late the first play to air next month but first let's get a sense of Wight Channel 5 of decide this will suit their audiences needs the Telegraph TV and radio DG kibblewhite is here.

He's co-host of a podcast through the square window which explores retro British TV grand welcome.

Just one what play for today was and why it's still hold such a special place in many people actually start Canadian who created Sydney Newman and actually start on ITV

When he moved over to the BBC in the mid 60s he brought that format with him and it began as the Wednesday play 1964 and then just for scheduling reasons in 1970 in to play for today and it was a kind of a lot of British TV for that was very much install to the theatre and that lot of TV was adaptations and Play For Today really drunk and date of plays specifically written for this new medium of television and the including Abigail's party famously directly one of the absolute favourites and it's gave opportunities to write a new television you list some of them now and they are some of the legend Ian McEwan Dennis Potter and Bleasdale Andrew Davies Tony Garnett Ken Loach Jack Rosenthal so it was a really exciting sort of ground for bringing a new Talent but also bring in issues to tell you that have been explored for and Channel 5 bringing it back.

They've seen audience growth more widely, although the share.

Still very small compared to the bigger public service broadcasters here in the UK but how does this decision to bring back Play For Today fit into its wider strategy is really interesting you're the boss of Channel 5 very the operator and he's had a lot of success in bringing other old things back for example Creatures Great And Small and it's I find it fascinating because Really Channel 5 drama is mainstream and its mainstream and that's no bad thing some could argue sometimes.

It's maybe a little bit dated and it might feel like things that ITV or BBC were commissioned 20-years ago but again there's an argument that people want to see that kind of and say bring it back in the stalgia brands like Play For Today sort of makes sense and away, but I suppose the most Kenny thing.

Is is that if Channel 5 just commission for one of plays you won't be here talking about it, but the fact that they have permission for one of plays that they are calling Play For Today suddenly.

We're all interest in it well, please but I do want to hear a clip from never too late.

As I said stars Nigel Havers and Anita Dobson hi soon, what are you doing here with my flat? I guess we're neighbours have all the return of villagers in the world.

She walks into mine.

I just want to talk go away you go out as I said I'm delighted and I'd like to bring in the stars of that and needs adoption and Nigel Havers welcome to you both Anita you play Cynthia a woman with sharp wit and a complicated party moves into a retirement home did the fact that this was a revival of play for today even more appealing to you.

I lost play for today.

I was always a huge fan.

I think they did some wonderful work, so I was thrilled when they ask you to jump to bring it back again.

So yes very happy and Nigel presumably you to remember the original was that part of the appeal and I do remember I did a few my im.old and what was so great was that in those days you come up with an idea.

Go and see the head of drama who would control pay for the day and if you liked it.

Today I can't imagine that happening would have to go and see hundreds of people and it will take thousands of days of arguing and throwing for anything to get on it right lesson of this is if you have a good idea and you're a producer.

Just go and do it.

Just just do it and is great great television absolutely is an interesting point we are on the media show about high-end drama which is obviously incredibly costly and from an activists perspective.

I be interested in your views the value.

There is also having drama that doesn't cost hundreds of millions of pounds or spend years in development or need to go through all those people as as Nigel is mentioning only that could happen more and more I mean what was wonderful about doing the all of the Casting crew and all of them.

The lot of them had a chance to the train, but it hasn't actually been given a chance to cut their teeth appsolutely brilliant this job was a joy from beginning to end and we did it no time at all.

Nobody messed around talking about it fiddling around just got on with it was wonderful Nigel presumably wouldn't say no no, I would you say no if there is no whoever came calling but there is also value in this sort of drama that cost less.

I know what is Anita said great work with Anita it was fantastic, but as she says in a we just got on with it and I think that's one way of making very good drama and that it should do a lot more of it is and I was talking with Graham earlier about my please Abigail's party which famously was a play for today.

Incredible writing and performances that is still remembered Channel 5 as you mention a bit better and needs his champion in less established writers people working outside London as part of this new venture.

I'm sure both of you for your careers.

You've worked with some amazing right as you've now reached the top.

What is your view on whether there are enough opportunities like this for writers and actors in Britain now, but I don't think I think the effect of Child by doing this is fantastic, and I just hope it's not just a one off the it's called paper today.

So it's make many more people today.

That's the whole point Anita it seems everything takes longer to do these days.

I'm back in the day you got the Script you met the people everybody agree.

They wanted to put the car together bang off you when now it's so much talking goes on a meetings and listen that everything takes longer to do everything and I think we waste.

Time but I think it is nice.

There's as well.

You know when you've actually got a good story.

Just get on with it and do it and do so I just want to bring round kibblewhite in just to ask him.

We've got these 2 billion oz of stage and screen on the media show also on on the paper today does casting those kind of familiar name.

They are such stalwart of British talent for so many years does that help the gap between parts in a nostalgic viewers on Channel 5 and a new generation absolutely really because you know they need to Nigel of said this they given you writing opportunities new directors new creatives and the best thing you can do with that is is putting together with established name of the people know people want to see and the other thing we talked about is a brevity of channel the very quick turning the things around and it means that they can get people I can use your Nigel because there's a quite short jobs and that they work well within people schedules and timetable for the whole thing is very kindly.

And I'm talking about 4 minutes usually I introduce gas on the media show with some explanation of who they are in Anita and Nigel you are so well known.

Obviously I didn't do that Anita somi rolls of defined you recently your own Doctor Who that people with the memories will think of and then in EastEnders Nigel and everything and carrots of Fire Downton Abbey to Coronation Street with the media show and I'm really interested in your perspectives on the media and he's when your rolled out if you can put it like that to publicise a show for example.

Do you approach it with trepidation with interest have views on publicising your work changed over the years definitely doing the published 2 years ago with part of the joy of that just chatting to people saying how much you loved it and how good the writing was you know this all about now.

I find it takes everything takes so long to set up everybody has to see you hear you you will.

Thousands of but I just think I don't know why that's happening.

I world now.

Hope become incredibly difficult everything is complicated with maydown difficult.

Where is back in the day it seems to me it was much simpler than you just had a good script.

Got a good cars together and off you when I wonder what your approach with Janice Nigel I know you were victim of phone hacking by the mirror who settled with you both of you must have experienced some of the worst and Trojans of the tabloid Media its height has it affected both of you journalists.

No, not really.

I've got lots of friends and that's good to hear myself and I wish I should imagine it cos I know they got a job to do and it's getting any more difficult for you guys, but but you know it is part of our our job is to push the show that you're in so I do understand the problems and if you didn't really enjoyed it though, you are talking about I wonder if this is on the other hand that doesn't really hasn't really happened to me in my whole career since I've been very very lucky Anita your sense of journalist journalism, how you approach them people as they are journalist writer whatever you are whatever you do your another person in my life and I think you should treat people kindly and honestly then they will treat you in the same way, so I don't I just think and also if people do start.

And they're going down and Avenue you don't want to go down.

I don't really want to talk about that.

So let's just stick to the main vein and generally people.

Have you OK that's fine, you know I know I think it's learning how to deal with people I suppose you just passing journalist in a big lump and think I'm going to get you you know I don't think people are but I think if you open then obviously people are going to walk in and say what else have you got in a cup of darling would like to look at that you know you said something and be kind and that's a great thing you just kind of each other be really important and also important thing about this this film is there's no reference to Prince Andrew in it to get away from that on the 13th of November on Channel 5.

I hope you think that.

That you have come on the programme.

Thank you so much Nigel Havers Anita Dobson and of course Graham kibblewhite.

Thank you all so much for Johnny thank you very much.

Thank you darling.

Thank you now many of you will have had the prime minister amongst others accuse the reform MP Sarah poaching of racism she had complained I talk TV phoning that adverts are full of black people full of Asian people that's the quote she has sent apologised for her poor phrasing well, let's hear from Sara Denby director of The Oxford future of marketing initiative at the University of Oxford and dino Myers lamptey founder of the barber shop creative agency with advisors brands, what to do with their marketing let's start with you Sarah when it comes to representation in advertising what statistics have we got on this because I think there's a recent Channel 4 study.

That's track the levels of representation in UK

The advertising and it's one that I wasn't directly involved in myself, so I can be quite and biased in my in my assistant and certainly my quoting of it the findings are absolutely consistent and corroborated by other studies conducted on a much larger scale including our own global Research University of Oxford and then is that progressive representation in advertising has in fact been moving at a glacial pace no matter what are subjective observations might be in a mini scores with infect gone backwards in terms of representation of many large Communities so you're talking about represent action for example of people with disabilities because I've looked at this channel 4 is that right because I look to the Channel for studying and then it seems to say that on the proportion of UK TV adverts featuring black people jumped after the rise of black.

The movement from 37% in 2020 to 51% in 2022 and has remained relatively stable since to look at how they represented differently come back to the almost invisibility of people who live with a disability in advertising content but the key thing to note is in Channel 4 only 7% of add any person of Colour in a Leading Role and what black people appear in there be over half of TV head to the to the statue just caught in that casting roles 30 or is key decision-makers or voices of expertise and when they do feature black people 1 and 3 adds to pick them in a stereotypical way and even telling people which is the UK's largest ethnic group remain underrepresented and invariably represented as narrow very productive stereotypes.

Empty from the barbershop just explain why do brands and agencies want to cost in this way, what are they speaking to try and reflect and and then that point that was making that when it comes to people from ethnic minorities day on rarely playing a central role in an advert.

Yeah, I think it's quite clear advertising is out for getting effectiveness effect unless they can do on the screen and diversity isn't as well.

Just play the centre good for business.

So you know plenty of studies whether it's the channel 4 on the Kinsey of the light of showing how advertising with Diversity paid back but diversity not just on the screen, but behind in the boardroom as well and the real thing is the advertising mirrors global popular culture, so you know it's representing.

You know people film movies sports entertainment and women global brands of completing globally and a lot of it is influenced by the US and and beyond and a tapping into culture and the tapping into what.

People so it's no surprise that you know what you see the screen is as effective as the global population that's what's been reflected clearly this router has blown up around what Sarah pochin said and looking at the study at the Channel 4 Dead it said the minority population of the UK is 18% this obviously much are in London but and there is this high representation in adverts that say 51% it she was making this point when she apologises what I was trying to say it was unrepresentative of British society she said and I suppose the question is that matter by does it matter should adverts represent British society you're well advertising powerful.

So has the power to persuade and it has the power to lead people in the right direction so you like to think that advertising is a leading people the positive Direction whenever it has the opportunity to and I would say that a diverse multicultural Britain is what makes.

So actually we should be reflecting all sorts of unit of different people and different abilities on ice creams the thing that I think that is it is nice, but she shows a lot of interest in advertising but I think the real problem with me on just going to count in colour on screen and actually thinking about what's behind the screen you know what's in the boardrooms.

What's it like making the adverts? What's but also? What is advertising funding as well, so you know this studies looking at television which is you know which is a small proportion of the total advertising market and yet will odds in the dark about what happens online in the ODEON in paid social environments and and digital spaces were a lot of advertising refunding the best things either and maybe detention to be to be a little bit more in that direction about are we influencing people in the right way by how we're spending money rather than just can't I'm sorry Debbie I know you mentioned you call for the study when you mention the study that you were involved in last year call the business case for inclusive advertising.

You want to conduct that was searching what what did you find that response to the guy was going broke rhetoric that was emanating from the States at the time where I was living in an area type Alliance un women but it was conducted in conjunction with my now colleagues that outside business school in future of marketing initiatives, but we were we were able to claim it was perpetuated by the media.

I'm afraid to say and politicians and there was a real push back against the idea that was coming out of the we were in a position where we were able to get the sales data from four of the world's biggest M5 of the world's biggest advertisers from across 58 countries 392 times over 4 years to analyse the impact of inclusive advertising on Commercial performance and brand equity and it was World first, but the study proved beyond.

Expectations inclusive advertising a short-term sales uplift which actually won't expect that was over 3% but a long-term sales uplift of 16.26% over time and is that because you're just appealing to more people you're not turning the normal are the people that were traditionally and adverts off but equally just appealing to more people not necessarily.

I think what we found an inclusive or at that consumers to be inclusive engaging more with customers and they were in ginger.

What does sales that lived but they were achieving higher customer loyalty so staggering figures with 23% lower chance of being abandoned after trial and 15% higher loyalty that would know by consumers.

They could charge 54% higher with the pricing power and they delivered a 62% higher likelihood of being a customer First toys cough.

The fact is you can't just buy the stuff you can't achieve it by blasting media and reaching more people you actually have to resonate with them.

They need to catch up with you, but I think what I found just to come back to the Channel 4 study what I found most encouraging is that the UK buying public which is what we talking about here because at the end of the stuff.

That's what marketing is a bad but 77% of the UK public agrees the diversity and inclusion is important in Ed which is up from the last volume 23 62% have noticed that Brown's place more emphasis on diversity, but 50% believe even more needs to be done so that means that even if you're changing your sexuality your religion your raised you want to see the community that you recognise around you and the society you live in reflected in heads and consumer.

Ashley Judd friends when they don't say that and dino is that your scent and do consumers want their brands to champion issues or they just refer to them to stick to selling products.

I think people when they got choices that will make sure of the brands that do the right thing and the Family Values I think you know largely people want to be entertained and they want to be and have things in the screen.

So enjoy they don't want to buy things that I don't believe in the Mol and the work is payable and I think you've got a lot of bandwagon brands that I think of symbolically done things in the past.

You know whether that was you know black squares for George Floyd whatever they've been seem to be doing it as level and I think that can be as damaging sometimes because they know the controversy and PR sometimes it gets them just a few likes and get some news headlines and get them to close does artificial clicks.

I think the troll brands progress beyond just the representation.

Looking about how the companies are formed the suppliers are likely they work with that also just answer the message in the Deep on messenger that they put train to the customers having and leave them in the right direction and the the brands that have to think the World Federation of advertisers.

They are facing pressure.

So there was no conversation called on that was formed by the word federation of advertisers.

They got together to try and come up with some rules and guidelines about how to make sure that advertise funding you know but bad things on the internet this information hate and and just not influencing things negatively and actually that that was disbanded because it came on the legal from Elon Musk accent and had to close down.

So there is this pressure that is global that's coming from all sorts of different places and ultimately because advertised as a big prize and it generates revenue for a lot of large companies have a lot of interest in it and how it's done and where it goes.

I'm just really sorry just as we wrap it Up should we do some people might be listening? Thank you, but she even expect dad's to be a vehicle for representation aren't they?

What's a creativity and imagination that sell products? What would your answer be admin connect with consumers in consumers want to see the society and communities around the they recognise it doesn't have to have a purpose to represent all people that they in the community with dignity and respect and I thinking about earlier major part of shaping our perceptions and understanding of the world we see around as we received of media messages the day and visual narratives and if we want to normalise a diverse society and and fear diversity and inclusion list which is what this push back is all about we need to really normalise how we see those those Communities portrayed on screen in our advertising in by the brands that we investing justino's.

just before we wrap it up your thoughts on what size just said I totally agree but I think the first and foremost to believe that you trying to create the most effective advertising you can see your Brand and I've paid it pays not just in terms of how you represent yourself from screen you a global business your global brand reflect the world but also make sure that reflect on your company and the people you work as well to be true and authentic and what you do that dino from the barber shop and Sarah Debbie from Oxford University thank you now if you follow financial news you may be feeling baffled places mergers and takeovers in the TV streaming world big changes are happening behind the scenes in the US but they could affect what we watch how we watch it and who gets to make it to help us on packing all I'm joined by camila Lewis who's the CEO of curve Media who's worked across both traditional broadcast and global streaming platforms welcome, Camilla

To have you here well, let's just get a sense of you first for audiences that just don't know what's been going on one of the key take over development in the streaming industry right now and why is Warner Brothers Discovery I think so much attention to the latest on the Sky dance and an arms race Katie put simply that's what we're in.

It's been going on for some time and there's been a real emphasis on scale.

Everyone to get bigger and bigger and bigger the Warner Brothers and Discovery has always been quite like a bit of a weird one because bit of a mish Mash did they really fit there's Warner Brothers This you'd Hollywood behemoth who got Harry Potter and HBO amazing brand Batman Marvel Comics and then take them getting into bed so to speak with with the discovery which is obviously got a huge global audience but basically Unscripted it was a little bit like houses going to work and how they can be used later, but they wanted to be big as we need to be bigger than the other people the problem is now haven't had streaming services.

There's too many streaming services.

It's really difficult.

Who is now to choose where they want to go and work what I want to do they want to watch maybe the bear on Disney but then watch slow horses on Apple it will all crying out for everyone to consolidate.

We only have one that's catching sensibly having thank goodness at last with the with the bigger.

Can I don't know exactly where it's going to land but there's certainly wearing a pair of deep consolidation so tell us so it's been paramount.

This is latest one what happened with that so well paramount have been bought by Sky dance and what that looks like is really hard to say at this point this chest happened.

Obviously day.

We just had an hour loads of jobs being lost probably less important to the viewers and at this point than it is for the people actually work like me and him about budgets and programs.

I mean there was there was a lot of content and explosion in a lot of contents of hammerhead a lot of content creation.

It's now a time where I think we can start thinking about that you had me with money out this where's the prophet in all this so much content isn't leaving to profit.

Yes.

Guy dances the Warner Brothers saying there's Disney and Hulu it doesn't matter but in terms of who they are but start to talk from your perspective people in working in the UK production.

What do they use mergers and takeovers mean day today for coming the UK production sector which is under stress right now.

It's under stress and it means what it means delay.

So it doesn't mean things aren't happening it.

Just means things taking a long time to happen.

So if you are like me in production and you want to keep that stuff that you want to make that program not being told no necessary, but it's just a bit wait wait wait and have had a huge kind of delays in their commissioning.

It's Phil everything's waiting and waiting and waiting if we just had Nigel Havers and Anita Dobson talking about how it used to be quick you know you just decide things mean.

I'm not exactly the same.

I do remember the days when you went with a simple idea.

He said hey let's do the great British Railway Journeys open.

Bradshaws showed it to the commissioner.

They got excited we were commissioned within days.

I mean it was if there's a happy days.

That's quite a lot that was quite old but it still on here that's the good news is absolutely ok delay.

Delay delays what we're saying and in terms of UK viewers what audiences might see as a result of these corporate chef.

What does it mean because of content access pricing I mean it's insane in my work in the industry, so I subscribed to something like 8 different services maybe even more I mean because my proper children describing things.

I don't know about but what I think it means of you.

Need to be at get two appointments manageable you want no more than one.

Maybe two you've got high player that is so good and so strong as the number one fastest growing streaming service in the country that actually all the ones we need to raise their game you can't just be doing one or two good projects quarter.

It has to be that level you get with a U-turn on you can be watching a range of interesting acquisition stroke emissions at anyone.

High quality is just normal the other streaming services are delivering that anywhere near that at the moment and we talk a lot on the media show about what's happening to British storytelling Netflix with we're doing it look at adolescence some of the public service broadcasters are saying we're losing global it will losing British stories in this in this global Arms Race if you like around around streaming is there a risk many stories get sidelined as platforms chase global hits and you worry that consolidation could limit creative risk-taking and I really do worry about this having said that I tried to be without saying to a hope for a future where we don't want to just have American content all the time but more to all I mean historic.ly that's what ends up happening the American powerhouses end update all we're going to patronise that and then I just think that we have the power needs to be in La so that's why the power setting so it's very hard, but just to keep oracle content fresh exciting and diverse and that's where all the hits come from after all we really can't have.

Tell us what the future holds because we just don't know that algorithm business because presumably would you say some of the best programs if they were being driven by an algorithm? Wouldn't it? Tells you what happened? It's really good as telling data and data analysis is a really useful tool and definitely worth considering.

This is what happens if you don't want in the future.

I mean I've recently had a big commissioner telephone very excited to say and you big competition that but I did not quite anxiety-inducing about it.

Is that I know how to wait for long time because of this research.

We have to go and information stuff and I think that's not just transfer where every channel is doing similar sort of thing all the broadcasters are I want to have information to prove that nervousness in history with so much fragmentation.

It's understandable and do you think I mean? They must be doing that sort of thing because they think it works so it must be proving in some way and some

I don't know whether the average is that it works better flops in a monk's but I don't think I think it doesn't work as consistently as they like it because audience research.

Will take you down a path of self self proving itself so to speak and I think I'm in the bottom line is most ideas that exceptional on television now which were created that would not come from the Bible created by brilliant people having crazy thoughts based on huge experienced enough to remember when TV was more simple you your channels and you just turned them on we've now got the streamers, but are they now starting to behave do you think more like traditional broadcasters when that's a really good question and it's interesting to know that you say you wanted to watch the bone.

You could just for a short period of time stream the whole lot and then be done with it.

I think they're starting to do now is to make an interesting places on tonight and I will be at 9 on watching television because I'm not gonna miss that for the world.

I think that this is something that is definitely coming to the smartest streamers and then beginning to sound like regulate, when they when they said so much schedule stuff, so just because we going back to scheduling and everything's going to feel a little bit like it soon.

I think American cable to wait for slow horses in the morning.

It's really annoying I want them all out there, but no they don't do that anymore.

Do they know what they're doing.

They do me to thank you so much for coming on now to someone who has been bringing history to primetime TV for many years Bettany Hughes historian, author and broadcaster back on our screens for the fourth series of Channel 4 treasures of the world.

That's a clip has Bethany in Oman twice and the life of the ancient desert Lord Lord was found every Thursday it host camel sales for the local they do you still cries these.

All animals that one of the oldest in the region and write back possibly could have been around at the time of doesn't have been here since lego.cat and selling well.

I'm delighted to say professor Bettany Hughes joins us now in the studio and you've got to let me out of my misery first of all desert Lord or who is the to the mysterious desert Lord so he's 2300 years old he was incredible Trader and Nursery New Cross the Arabian Peninsula and he was buried is 2 camels are sacrificed and buried with him in super super super rich and I just got to the brilliant pub facts about him.

Is that he had no teeth on the size of his doors because he used to ride brandishing his sword holding the reins of the camels in his mouth his anyway.

He's to try to understand that of course you.

You are north of course.

I don't mean just another job.

You're not just the presenter of their suits you have your own production companies House Global which makes the series Originals obviously full series and how did you come up with the four because it is a mix of history archaeology getting to know local culture.

Yeah definitely travel as well.

You know it was it was during lockdown and we just thought what can we do people are soda a really lost their kind of faith and hope in the world, but we knew they were still a big why beautiful world out there, so we can't invent a vaccine but we can do is formula for Cove he went festival to read zone's we worked our way back to the UK 3 red zones Amber zones green stones and we just want to say look we've been around as a species for at least 200000 years and we are resilient and we do get things right as well as getting things wrong.

It was a real puns and we don't know whether it was actually now and full series Office series.

32 films and not interest the obvious places that's what you're trying to do is just a history happens everywhere.

It doesn't just happen in Ancient Greece ancient Rome ancient Egypt was Tudors and answers.

What are the biggest challenges make me a show like that.

That's all behind the scenes stuff that audiences went realise.

I think it's that we go to pretty gnarly places so we all have a hostile environment training before we go we really are genuinely going down into teams that have never been opened before and you know what you're going to find it.

There's definitely going to be snakes and scorpions You Know and usually human remains do with that very carefully so I think the big thing for us one of the reasons we set up sandstone global was that we just wanted to work with respect so we wanted as it always acknowledge that we're guest in someone else's country like an enthusiastic raft that can help her carry stories.

You know literally across across oceans to people.

I think it's getting that balance right.

Always remembering that you're a guest in someone else's country has what viewers expect from historical series changed over the years and do they want more bells and whistles CGI re-enactments whatever it might be in some ways yes, and we just did a series on Channel 5 about the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World in collaboration with Snapchats with snap studios in Paris where they created incredible augmented reality from the CGI models that weed made very archaeological QR code on the screen, so you can't scan the QR code and suddenly all these kids had made reality versions of the Colossus of Rhodes all the hanging gardens of Babylon on their phone and kind of projecting it on there onto their kitchen tables and then sending videos of that to their mates.

So it's really lovely if you can do something like that where your kind of broadening the breadth of the audience for history.

People just like a good story as well.

They really do they love the idea of special access that you're sharing other people's lives that you're in a place that maybe they want to go to but babe.

You're telling the story authentically and I think that's you know you just been talking about that.

That's a big thing none of it is AI this is ancestral intelligence rather and Camilla Lewis is still here and I'm in place of your perspective on this really because history content don't seem to be going through a Renaissance period if you like.

It's a surgeon podcast YouTube channel substance obviously primetime TV like your program.

Why is exactly what you just said? I mean that we discussed earlier on but it's also I am trying to persuade to do a program.

So what am I getting is the truth dare? I say or a truth or something definitely incontrovertible in some sort of actual Manor and I think new as you know you could yourself a rough idea vessel.

Amazing information that you're really respected people know that they trust you you're the Real McCoy and I think in a world where we don't know what the truth is it's really lovely to feel you can safely with someone that's all Sammy how lovely thank you.

That's lovely of you to say that and it is you know we were to realise your shows the sandstone shows they've got out for 25% of the year on a Saturday night is just history shows that just telling history stories.

I think that's a bit bigger actually as well.

Is that we now Nova and as a species we are creatures of memory so so typically we carry memory right across our brains.

It's at the synapse network called the default mode network and that's where memory and identity and imagination sets so it's almost as if instinctively we understand that we cannot operate without accessing memory of some kind.

It's not saying he should live in the past is not having a kind of coin.

Nostalgic idea about woman before but it's understanding that we are fools if we don't admit that we live with the past and you know it the past memory gives us access to new ideas to the Future I just want to talk before we end on and we were talking about Sensation advertising that representation on TV as a strap buy something that Lucy was he said in an interview over the weekend the presenter and historian think I'm overvalued by contemporary Society I'm just here because I haven't to come through when the TV historians with David Starkey and Simon Schama I was in the right place.

I was the right gender the right colour.

I had the right educational back it may be something a bit different to the self-deprecating but has female representation in history Across the Border you know has it has it obviously has improved, but what's your assessment and what you saying? Yeah? I mean it's totally totally true.

So it was so there's a kind of interesting fact that I was the first female historian presenter history programme on British television and that was in the year 2019 that is a

Fishing isn't it? So clearly there was something going on but it's getting much better and it's one of the reasons we set up the company actually just to be more representative to kind of tell a story of the world in a match for Avon representative way and it's working people really really want to see that.

So just I just got to tell you the treasure series we did one feature on tamerlane.

You know is this kind of warrior he's known for slaughtering millions, but actually the women in his life or incredibly influential.

So you can turn me stories on their heads as well.

So this is a bit.

Are you don't know about these great Warriors like it or not? We've always been 50% of the population in the idea that you wouldn't have women who can speak to women and men in that isn't saying I think you just being a bit in a fantastic story and as all UNIS I think there's a need for that and then you need to be met by great great great broadcasters and there's a long way to go.

Oh my god, it really the Landscape homework them that they only wanted to have kind of like older older men on television that quite sad and quite depressing much for coming on the media show and thank you to everybody who is changing today.

We really appreciate your company rolls will be back next week with me.

Thanks.

The figures face was featureless and his entire body was jet black Danny Robinson October I will be sharing uncanny listeners real-life ghost stories.

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