Read this: Reporting on migrant hotels, Jimmy Kimmel's return, The Hack

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I'm all Roger listen on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome this week with the US comedian.

Jimmy Kimmel back on screen will ask what is all means for relations between the US media and the

We'll talk to the producer of new ITV drama the hack which takes us back to the Guardians investigation of phone-hacking by the news of the world and will hear how content explain content creators explain how targeting niche audiences can be an effective way of generating revenue for first of all a new BBC investigation into the government's hotels to house migrants has led to the home secretary ordering an urgent review into its findings Janice Sue Mitchell has been recording inside migrant hotels for the Radio 4 file on 4 but she spoken to residents staff and security Sue is with us here in the studio, but first let's hear a little of the investigation to get past anti-immigration protesters.

Just to get her medication Kadir said hospital appointments for migrants can often be too far from where they live because they get moved around so much.

He had a recent NHS consultation that involved a 500 mile round trip home office picked up the £600 fair.

What is Katie said to Mitchell's here with us in the media show studio thanks for joining so needless to say access for journalists to these hotels is very hard.

What made you think that it was possible well, that's a good question.

I mean I have the long-standing relationship covering this kind of territory doing a sauce series on Smugglers, and my work in the camps in France and was migrants here in the UK of various issues overtime I've kept in touch with people so some of those I've met on the camps in Calais eventually made the journey over to Britain by small boat and they were placed in hotels, and they sent me about where they were being placed and some of the conditions and although there is enormous security on these hotels people within them are allowed to bring guests in its menu.

Also of way of working I guess but I went in as a friend of some of the people or as a guest really as some of the of some of the people initially to sort of spend time there to work.

What was happening with their lies.

Will I see then I work for the BBC and everyone I met in there.

I was very open about my sort of where I worked and gradually over time.

I won the confidence of others in the hotel and some of the security teams people working in there and just I think just by spending those weeks sort of visiting different hotels, it gradually gave you a good overview about what's happening.

You say you went in as a guest but of course you are also going in as a as a journalist what considerations do you have to make a around who you needed to tell that you were not only a guess but a journalist and who you weren't going to mention that to see when you go for your security.

They're not actually asking what your occupation is which is strange.

I mean journals or not.

Yeah, but no one at the security point never asked me I are you a journalist at the point of entry.

What do you think you would have said if they heard I think I would have been open at the time.

I mean like the person when I went in I was initially just visiting people so it wasn't really my mind to actually make a programme about what was happening all that sounds strange cos I got going with it.

I obviously wanted to record initially I wanted to go and visit them so and the question never came up and then over time because I was in there so much.

I could then talk to security and talk to people about the sort of my baby roll about what I'd like to record with them and work out a way of making up possible that kept them safe.

I mean throughout this really prime consideration was the anonymity we didn't want to identify places.

We were recording in and we didn't want to come back on those people who are brave enough to speak to us know.

I don't know if you would consider the would you consider some of the people you in touch with friends, is that the

It's a difficult one.

I mean I suppose the reason I was asking is when you are within these hotels and these people you've had you've been in contact with the four months and years and you obviously have some form of affinity with them does that skew the way that you record their experience and tell the story now, but I think there has to be a level of trust.

It's built up with people very hard thing to just go in and Report these are really traumatic circumstances that some people are going through and you have to be really mindful of that and you need a level of trust to be able to report those accurately.

I'm not to cause unnecessary suffering to people because mental trauma of what they've gone through maybe in the home countries and then also with the journey themselves.

It's a difficult balancing act always as a reporter and so although friendship problem the right time.

It's definitely not a case.

I've just been an enormous and an honest person entering into their lives.

It's

So you actually really do need to be to have a kind of relationship with them and I don't think that transcend you're doing listok responsibilities.

I always feel as a journalist.

I'm doing throughout and my best job to portray.

What's going on but to do so in a way that doesn't cause them anymore distress and the needed and super Hans Dave you you differ from all other jealous, but I do wonder you know what you picked up about how those people living in those hotels, how they view the median and whether that's changed over time you see actually so I think people who by and large when I've been recording on moment issues the fact that we work at the BBC and there is a sort of recognition since station is something that they know it means something to them and so I think that helps.

I think the media and I didn't really get a sense that they are accessing a

Disturbing content in the media, so I think the view of Genesis respectful view of aware of the perceptions of them outside now in the medium and and further afield.

It's interesting because I think the security team said to me they didn't think that they were aware of quite how negatively some of those perceptions were sort of shaping the current obey you said it was your role to put those the other side if you like that the more negative you did you feel that was part of your world to explain that to people what people are saying about them? I didn't feel it necessary to explain to him, but I thought was my fault and I did that on a number of occasions with people so I was I felt the Times well that didn't but I'm comfortable but I wanted to them to know that those of the views as a genus you have to put them you have to put these amazing view.

That's been held across the country.

This is your scarce resources of the sort of decisions have been made of the financial decisions and actually some agree didn't know that.

Well, that was quite interesting to in actually challenging people you saw that may be there isn't such a golf between a different views that you can actually tell if people and there is some overlap because actually said that was in some of the there is a common ground in how they sometimes you these things which you would never imagine when you just see the news coverage of the protests know and when we're going to be speaking to Patrick Spence the DVD made Mr Bates for the Post Office on the power drama has to effect change and your work also clearly managers that I'm in your previous series to catch a scorpion led to the arrest other people smuggler.

It's amazing series of people haven't listened but more broadly I mean what kind of impact do you want your work to have when you set out to uncover whatever you're turning your sumat gains on to the what are really wanted from this was to try and draw some new information into the day.

I feel that a lot of the coverage is just of the Barricades and the protest is not gone very deep.

My interest was it to try and broaden that and you actually get some sense of what's happening in the hotel to get information out there so rather than pack my actual Focus was really just to try and give people some of the actual realities of day-to-day life in the migrant hotels, and that was as simple as that that was my actual sort of pain with it if that it has had a wider repercussions intended really the start of this so-and-so kg does eluded the fat we're going to be talking about a couple of examples where work by journalists has been translated into a very high impact trauma in the case of Mr Bates vs.

The post office.

How do you think you would feel if some of your most high-profile work was taken up by dramatis and turned into something watch will I was think it's quite good to have a big audience for Injustice and most of what I cover or try and cover really is Injustice and wrong doing a lot of investigations really impact on people's lives.

Bringing them to a wider audience just as an example of the Bates really if you can do something to try and just highlight what's going on and when things are wrong as a journalist you can try and do that in a sort of a safer way as possible and people as much dignity as possible the process and I think yeah bring it on I mean whatever helps in that regard.

I'm 14 and one thing is there a belief 32000 people in these hotels at the moment? How many people did you speak to him? Would you say it was the question is your reporting representative.

Will you actually setting out to meet individual stories.

I didn't actually imagine like they're not speaking to so many people in the Morgan Hotel that's a funny thing about going in actually.

Just once you're in there.

It just is the case that people bring over other people once you start with a few people and knowing them you suddenly find yourself having lots of conversations that I'm really interesting conversations and different perspectives and there's a lot.

You don't hear in the in the actual program.

Views, it's hard to you probably can't do it Justice to everything but what I tried to take was the themes and the things that I felt had common overlap across the hotels in across the people I was meeting to try and use those as the things that help shape the narrative of the of the investigation to come and see us.

We appreciate it to Mitchell and you can hear the news program file on for inside the migrant hotel on BT sounds right now now last week.

You might remember I was at the Royal television Society convention in Cambridge I try the session titled how to become a creative entrepreneur with recreate is who are taking their ideas straight to their audiences often bypassing Legacy Media one of them was Jade Goody son who created educational videos on digital platforms to create is build their businesses Brandon be is a visual effects artist showcasing his skills to more than 16 million subscribers on his YouTube channel is also the founder of production company studio b.

Which produces social media content for brands like Amazon and Netflix series on tiktok on YouTube called I'm rich or poor the smart conversations about race and the media well, I asked them what they thought was the value of making niche content and whether traditional broadcasters have something to learn from that is because I was out earning my job with just 10000 subscribers in 6 months already out earning 95 that shows the power of having a channel and audience your hyper targeted and specific the small but mighty so in terms of the mindset shift.

I think it comes down to a shift or reach to residence so instead of trying to pick content that has mass appeal.

It's more about being hyper specific about your content is for we've all heard the phrase like if you're speaking to everyone you're speaking to no one right.

It's basically that but incredibly more targeted when you get really really good at that.

You're able to unlock a level of trust that you.

Cannot get when your audience is big and maybe more passive that trust is what can be incredibly valuable in commercial terms absolutely Brandon do you see that niche content scalable? I mean what is the power of creating content within a niche the real luxury the benefits of creating content and digital and even when playing into a niche is creating to an international global audience so subject that can feel quite something quite mission not worthy of creating a series or a show about actually when you're open up ODEON Andover inactive worldwide appeal suddenly.

It turns into something that's really scared of on tangible.

Even to very very small subjects.

That is an incredible creator call Francis bourgeois.

That's just incredible example the best he is a creator who creates content about Trainspotting he stands at train stations.

He was a little GoPro on his head.

Gets very excited everytime he sees a train pass by and he now has a his own series on falling over the back then I think that's the perfect example you can take the newest the subjects you write with the creator.

Who just so passionate about that idea and then expose them to a global audience and then suddenly you've got something that can actually sustain and scale specifically British thing it turns out his unapologetically specific.

Do you think broadcast as a missing opportunities by chasing broad appeal? I do think I think I think we'd like we tend to think or do you want let's try and get everyone the thing that I found is specially when it comes to viral videos I've had so many viral videos but have a really build a strong audience in a strong community from them know.

I will say to any creator any person that's making videos on making you know any type of content you.

Viral videos the great to have a number.

Oh my god 23 million people watch my video and Anne and sounds like I'm passing it's nothing it's great, but has it built a community as it belongs coming back to watch it or disappointing everything you're doing no it took me a very long time to build a call in the pub or gang but to build map of us together that yeah, I know my community I know them because they are the ones that are there everyday if I post something that is often the normal viral moment.

They're the ones are still coming today and are the ones that are the ones that are buying into it if I'm doing a movie review They Know It's the paid advert there in it.

They sharing it they know that is paid so they want me to kill the bag for they like go for it.

It's so takes time for the think if you if I've gone out there and gone I'm only going to spend a full-time just getting everybody as many millions of occasionally I do drop a biro moment cuz I do like to

I need my you go through Kinsale black, but the general thing is I love making videos for my community that built though yeah, and if you enjoyed that will be hearing wolf Jade Brandon and shahbaz panel in the coming weeks now.

Of course we have to talk about the comedian Jimmy Kimmel after show us suspended by ABC last week on Tuesday night.

It was back more likely than not those of you listening.

No the backstory Jimmy Kimmel had made comments relating to The Killing of Conservative activist Charlie Kirk two days later the chair of the US broadcast regulator DFC condemn them and has broadcasters which took the show to act or risk questions being asked about their licences to company said they would stop airing Kimmel show on their stations in after ABC suspended production of it.

You may remember Donald Trump amongst others welcome that development but now the show is back ABCs owners are Disney with said in a statement that the return.

After thoughtful conversations with Jimmy hear some of Jimmy kimmel's opening on LOL from last night about what I need to say and do tonight and I don't think what I have today's going to make much of a difference if you like me like me if you don't you don't have no illusions about changing anyone's mine, but if you want to make something Clear because it's important to me as a human and that is you understand.

It was never my intention to make light of the murder of a young man have some of her a longer opening monologue by Jimmy Kimmel and this entire story is any number of questions about the trump administrations approach to us media and about how the US Media should and is responding one person has been wrestling with all of these questions nonstop since the story bro class is Brian stelter chief Media analyst at CNN Brian thank you for coming back onto the media show to help us with this first of all.

What did you make of what Jimmy Kimmel said?

Signal to his viewers but also his haters that he is not going into weekend what he does is not going to soften his message is not going to change his tomb when it comes to trump and there were some questions about that heading into Tuesday night tomorrow all the questions about whether he was going to try and give it away from politics whether it was going to pressure from Disney to try to call the temperature by being not so critical not so vocal against President Trump became a very clear that he is going to stand up and not just for his own free speech rights but also for the rabbits free speech rights in the US and most of all is going to keep using his platform to take on President Trump I think I was really significant because it's single something that is about one night show what channel is going to be doing 4 weeks in months to come and he may not have told his punches on Donald Trump but what about what he said about those businesses which took decisions which led to him being taken off.

Which I mean Disney and the two main broadcasters who decided to suspend the show to say you was not happy about being away is nobody usually is he did now.

It's ingredients behind the scenes of ABC Express the gratitude Disney company Disney and talked about the value of the platform that he has right now a little bit smaller because as you said there's two big station owner groups are keeping camo show preempted.

I keep showing off the year in local stations across America 20% of the markets in the United States so maybe there's one and a 5 Americans who have access to Kilmore show on the airwaves but in the streaming age that matters less than ever you know you couldn't watch it on ABC only able to watch it on YouTube and it is gaining that man is getting millions of views per hour on YouTube right now so I suspect you know if

Dealing with this in a week.

I'll be surprised if next door and Sinclair still keeping the show off the Year ABC has a lot more cards right now than those local broadcasters.

Do you want to do the one little bit the calculations being made by the business is involved so let's start with Disney the ABC owners.

What what what were the different competing factors for them in this story.

I think we should start from the premise that Disney one of the bring Jimmy Kimmel you know the exactly is in charge ABC they mean by all accounts.

They love Jimmy Kimmel been in business.

Jimmy Kimmel they value his show the recognise that the outside of a Shell which are so much more than your ratings.

Yes late night TV USA shrinking, but I've been holding as it's a valuable platform to promote other Disney shows for example the show is a hit online in streaming is really makes them are several ways to bring the show back but need to find.

Do it dealing with the pressure from the government in from the local station operators, so I think that's the backdrop and then what are the factors well? You know Disney's well aware that has pending Business by the justice department approval for deals it carries Assisi licences, we know the Trump is absolute pushing a limit of his power and trump or are you Billy puppet to pressure ABC internal punish you put it on one side and on the other side of letter you have the back at 6 and 10 Americans Disapproval President Trump most Americans don't want just to see Maga propaganda on television most Americans have affection with the Disney Brand and the protests in my calls for cancellations for Boycott do add up to something we don't know how much they are up to we don't know how many people might have dropped Disney personal last few days, but here's the thing Disney nose.

Is that data that was some Factor but I don't believe that Disney plus cancellation or protest outside Disneyland all that the terminal because I start from the premise that ABC always wanted to bring the show back on anyway, and they have brought it back as you've been describing the next thing we wanted to get your help with where is what this adds up to 4 American media I was listening to you last year's saying look this could be a really significant moment as the most talented people within us Media look at their options and think do I go Legacy broadcast do I perhaps go onto YouTube or substack or elsewhere now that came back on there has your assessment of how important this moment is changed?

It's changed into far as the pressure is more severe now the the fault lines or more more apparent.

The tug-of-war freespeech.org of War is getting more intense and in my sustainable is as follows if these all my media companies cave the trump or aperiodic have the trump as some have a period every time that happened to new substack is born every time it happens in new podcast is what happens when you YouTube stream is created in other words that energy that higher to have independence from the government to speak freely to speak to the power somewhere and if journalist BBC don't really have that ability of comedians on she don't really have to go elsewhere may be that right away at all at once but the energy is going to move elsewhere actually happening right camels back on BBC News journalists or breaking stories about.

They are holding the power to account but to the extent that people do for your Media capitulation to the extent that journalist or comedians or commentators are retainers do feel that pressure then it seems to me start-ups are going to benefit and is all bank companies.

Just going to suffer over the long-term.

They are turned into propaganda organs for any government than they are going to suffer and Brian I'm interested in your perspective on what the trump administration can or could have actually done it.

I mean in reality if the show hasn't been suspended.

What could the regulator have done with their powers very little to say that he has very limited power to revoke a licence for a denial licence renewal if they tried to do that in the US it would cause years of legal battles and there is no girl.

The trump administration would probably last longer than Trump's term in office, so there's not a lot of actual power transactions.

They bringing car present over a local station well.

We'll do a power though is when a train station changer sense when there's a merger acquisition or sale and that were seen happened paramount was held up because I was trying to get a murderer done next door which is keeping him off the air local station and local market as a murderer pending use that power simulator from the outside.

I think Brennan carworld.

Deny this from the outside the perception of MS is there the murderer isn't climate is because Trump is using that as leverage and it's not going away and as you say, I'm not going away and does to know this as you as you say Brian we really appreciate your help going through that story all the different dimensions of it.

Thank you very much never coming on.

Chief Media analyst at sea and now we're going to stay and talk about another us Media story now because the Pentagon which is home of the US department of War formerly the Department of Defence is introducing new restrictions for the Press who report from within the Pentagon have been told I have to sign a pledge saying they won't report any unauthorised information or face losing their access and tylee the restrictions would also further limit John less movements within the building posted on social media so depressed does not run the Pentagon that people do wear a badge and follow the rules or go home.

He said is pentagon correspondent at the Washington Post and she's with us to discuss all these are welcome that memo sent out to German says the only information which the Department of War expressly authorises can be released publicly have they explained?

Play see as arnulf arised.

There's been no further explanation.

I mean this memo dropped late Friday and kind of shocked all of us.

We knew it was coming we have been told there would be a new badge because they weren't the reporters walking the building to be much more clearly identified and we had heard that they would be something classified or controlled unclassified information, but there's so much problematic language in this document that they want us to sign to the Effect 2 in order to keep our badge.

We would have to only report with the Department of Defence wants us to report and that doesn't help anyone that sounds so much how it would these new restrictions impact the work you do on the pending and how do you do that? What it sounds like it? Would it would have an immediate impact I've been in this building form.

Tanya's I've worked all the corridors and then there's over 17 miles of Cawdor in the Pentagon reporters are walking into the five spaces does doors are locked locked for a reason but every single one of the services is located in a different part of the building and as you walk in a last year as you would walk to use the air force or to the army you never knew you were going to bump into you in the holes and those new Options conversations.

Help you reporting having maintaining a presence in the building maintaining relationships in the building even if it's not a story of working on that day helps you in a story that you're working on making the monster come.

There is an argument didn't know that this is government being careful with obviously talking about potentially very sensitive information that could be erased and national Security secretariat put on a signal that include the reporter.

Yes, that's certainly was that kind of information for sure yes indeed, but what do you say do the wider point that well perhaps Pete hegseth wasn't being that careful at the intention is to be very careful and even sensitive information and I and every other Hannigan reporter here has had both the opportunity to talk to and learn about and discuss information at the Pentagon does not want us to have and that's vital to reporting because sometimes that information is withheld because it and sometimes that information is withheld because it's over classified and it's the public's right to know what is taxpayer Dollars are doing and what is military doing on its behalf.

In the Studio with with Katie I know that you cover the Pentagon for a number of years and the people who cover the Pentagon open stay on that patch for a good while building up contacts, so you know the people inside that be incredibly well.

How is a reacting to this decision privately no one I have talked to is in support of this.

There's a general instead.

It's unnecessary.

You know they have been opportunities and moments over the years where we have been told that a strike was going to or have been told that you know you might want to stay in the building past 5 today because there was that Highly Trusted relationship and none of us our head of an operation and puts service numbers lives at risk and that's exactly what the Secretary house of dead when he put out the lunch times and the times at the bombs with.

Before it was pallets of Returned safely the base.

Thank you very much indeed for updating is on that story and if you want more detail on how Pete hegseth in the trump administration responded to criticism of what happened with that group chat of course that's available through the BBC reporting on the BBC News website that's Tara from the Washington Post it's pentagon correspondent about the new drama that starts tonight on Itv is called the hack where interested because it's dramatizes the biggest story of wrongdoing in a British Media in recent times phone-hacking Dave Tennant stars is Nick Davies the Guardian journalist who first exposed how people's private messages were being illegally intercepted for stories, let's hear a clip.

This is a story that ends in 7 major police investigations nearly 40 convictions and some of the most powerful people in this country been brought to their mirrors active sorry.

We're going to talk to the producer of the series who was also behind the acclaimed drama Mr Bates vs.

The post office but first of all Katie let's quickly remind ourselves of what the phone hacking scandal was it was a dark chapter in British Media phone hacking or voicemail interception at Rupert Murdoch's News of the World it was initially passed off as 2RD employees a journalist and a private detective to jail but the Guardian revealed it was much more widespread and the story really took off in 2011 when it was discovered that the phone the murders schoolgirl Milly dowler have been hacked and because her messages have been gave her parents.

Hope that she was still alive model shop the paper he offered for some apology for what had happened there were payouts to victims of the practice, but since then we've learnt was also the judge Britain 2023 widespread and habitual at Mirror Group newspapers between 1996 and 2011 they have paid out millions and settlements and damages Prince Harry people might remember one.

Play to get some 2 years ago and now and the News of the World sisters have Lloyd the sun will that the owners of the sundowners news UK have consistently denied any illegal information Gathering ever took that paper it has settled in with many including most recently Prince Harry without ever accepting liability, but press give that estimates the Scandal the customer business holding a billion pounds and compensation payouts and this led to what was called the Leveson Enquiry which did happened although what is often called Leveson to within the media that hasn't happened, but is actually way to the Leveson Enquiry and 20 looked into the cultural practices and ethics of the British press and took evidence from politicians editors amongst others and in 2012 made recommendations including the suggestion of a new regulator of the the second part was meant to be an investigation into the relationship between journalists and the police but levels and to never happened in 2018 the conservative government shelves in the world to change in the present.

And Keir starmer also has made clear that labour won't be going ahead with it to the constellation of campaigners who say there is much more to uncover well well as you were saying an executive expense is here and I think before we start Patrick I should do a full disclosure which is my husband as an actor and he has a small role in this programme when I'm going to talk about that but what I do want to know is.

Why did you want to make it now so many years on from the Scandal very good? Why did I want to make it firstly because it's a great journalism it.

It's a celebration of hugely courageous journalism, because he had the courage day there were several of them at the garage to call out wrong doing in their own industry.

I don't know about any of us, but I I would find it very hard to face up to that in my own secondly.

I thought I knew the whole story.

And when I did some research.

I realised I didn't and that felt it made me Cross at but it also made me excited as a dramatist and third because it's a story about and abuse power and that's what gets me up in the morning and lots of the characters in the show a real people's and it Dave is also Alan rusbridger.

He was God in Edgware at the time.

Do you ever collaborate with them like this when you've got will people involved in several others yes, we absolutely did we talked to between 50 and 60 people who were all closely associated featured in the drama and over the course of about a year and a half.

We we cannot cross reference all the books.

We could read and all the evidence we were picking up from them and and and found a way through to a version of history that we felt was as close to you.

Talk to them listen to intro but do you show them clips and go to this feel like a reasonable?

What you remember or how much PSI do they have in the final the final product didn't have any say in the final product at all, but on the other hand we tell people the the beats in their story without necessarily showing The Script and we give them the chance to respond that is true of News UK as it is of Nick Davies Alan rusbridger Amelia and etc.

This is how have a News UK the owner of the sun and formerly the News of the World however they reacted to the drama.

Do you know if it was a news program would be having a right of reply something if you like is that is that what a drama has to do as well.

We have to tell them in advance for filming every beat the that involves them and they have to get into that when you say a Beat what do they actually get do they get the script of a scene or the gist of a scene or the fact within the same but they actually get there.

Very details, they get huge detail within each scene without actually reading the dollar and so they get a chance to see how they are being represented and I get a chance to tell us.

How they feel about that and they did and we took those feelings into consideration and we also asked him for a comment but they didn't send us anything but in terms of the legal considerations free sample controversy around baby reindeer designating itself as a true story your title sequences.

This is the story of the biggest newspaper scandal and recent British history some Names Have Been Changed some scenes and characters created for the purposes of dramatisation is that is that a legal cover we're not covering for anything at all.

It is a fair description of what's in the show it is a dramatisation of a true story.

It is as close to the true story as we can make it but after all of our research we were.

Quite happily have put out.

This is a true story we chose not to in this example, but there are some scenes that are that are fictional representation of what we think happened based on the evidence of all the the accounts of several different people but you can't be sufficiently confident the labour leaders a truthful and its totality so I would like the letters improve the representation in its totality.

Yeah, I would say this is as close to the truth and is close to the facts of both strands as we possibly make it now your first and foremost trying to make a drama that is well made that people would have watched that people take something from you produce, Mr Bates first of the Post Office closed everyone listening to 10 had this extraordinary impact is impact in your mind when you make a drama like the hack you can't possibly hope for lightning to strike twice.

But I definitely hope that we make people angry and that we by the end of the show they want to ask the questions that we are asking that I think be summarised by can we please have listened to can you can you make an educated guess as to which of the stories you tell are most likely to animate the viewer mostly provoke a reaction the reaction that you you hope people will have I don't want to give anything away because I don't want to ruin the pleasure of people watching it who Jen you don't know what happened.

Yeah, but what I will say is we have chosen to structure the story I say we Jack has chosen to structure the story very deliberately by writing to apparently connected stories in a way in which they are told stylistically and in every other way very differently and posing to the audience the challenge.

Have these are connected and because when you work out the connection? I hope you're going to get as angry as we did and you mentioned that Jack phone on big star of British drama.

I do want to turn the pressures facing British drama at the moment because we spoke about this on the media show before but I know that you've Patrick have said that Mr Bates wouldn't be made now neither with the hack just explain why and what it is.

What is the extent of the financial pressure face in the TV industry in the UK at the moment? It's all about the international marketplace when I have said that Mr Bates and I couldn't make Mr and again and I wouldn't development from scratch because the two very individual challenges in the hacketts to stories side-by-side so frankly it's nearly twice as much as most dramas and Mr Bates because it had such a big cast and it's spread around the United Kingdom those shows were hard to make on a much lower budget.

There are some shows that can be made for 1/2 million-pound an hour but

I meant you wanna spend two-and-a-half 3 million pounds an hour you can no longer get hold of that money and most dramas cost between 2 and 3 million pounds an hour and don't understand funding of dramas works and appreciate it can vary from programme programme Who's putting money into the pot so 10 years ago.

Let's keep this really simple 10 years ago the average British contemporary drama might cost about 1.3 million pounds an hour which was fine because the BBC iTV Channel 4 would give you a bout £900,000 an hour for their licence fee which meant you only needed to £400,000 an hour make the show and that was quite easy cos the tax break with provide maybe 250 of that she doesn't mean what we might think it means licence fee means the amount of money.

They're going to pay to licence your drama.

Yes, so they said that you only so far sold the UK and therefore you take a tiny advance on the rest of world for maybe 150 £200000 these days.

You are now turning around to watch call the distribu.

Advance against international sales and you're asking for 1 to 1/2 many pounds an hour.

Are you saying because from the outside looks like a booming sector but there's a glass of wine in drama.

If you like people might say suggesting that the type is about to run dry or the because of the lag between now and then when decisions are made when dramas come out what I will say is that there is no broadcaster terrestrial out there who wants these dramas to stop being made Polly Hill with a lot and Lindsay the BBC very keen to keep making these gone to dramas, but they're only putting in one-third of the budget.

All I can say is I know I'm not alone in saying I am not developing any more of these limited series because they can't be funded anymore we started working on Mr Bates and the hacking 2020 so with the future will look very different in a couple of seconds.

When's it out tonight there? We go so you can see it on ITV and of course you can stream as well.

2BX Patrick Spence executive producer of the hack thanks for joining us and thank you all for your company that is it from us today.

Goodbye.

Bye.

From BBC Radio 4 The Fort speaking for the first time we felt they were coming through this complex called you and thought you said to me you just need for volunteers with secure them to the Apache wings and we'll go back and get last Call for Ford get me for Marines and I will take them I will get that boy home listen to the fort on BBC sounds.