Read this: Journalists in Gaza, AI Avatar, Housing Journalism, True Crime

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and this week will hear about the investigation that led to the resignation of the homelessness minister father whose son was killed in a mass shooting in the US will tell us why you asked to conduct an interview with an AI Avatar of his son and the producer of 24hrs in police custody will give us the lowdown on how they make it.

I will explain why he turned to drama for his latest documentary about organised crime, but we go to begin in the Middle East funerals were held yesterday for the four aljazeera journalist killed by Israeli airstrike in Gaza City on Sunday among them was 28 year-old correspond alsharif one of algeciras most prominent reporters in Gaza this is part of.

BBC news story on this it reads Israel says Sharif was the head of a Hamas terrorist self-produced little evidence to support that Sharif previously denied it and and and media rights groups have rejected the allegation the idf has said nothing about the other journalists that killed it goes on the BBC understand Sharif work for a mass media team in Gaza before the Curragh in some of these social media post before his death the journalist can be heard criticising Hamas well according to the committee to protect journalists at least 186.

I've been killed since the start of Israel's military offensive in Gaza and I'm joining Now by Jodie Ginsberg who is the CEO of the CPG that's the committee to protect journalists you're welcome to the media show thank you for having me on thanks for coming on at what is your reaction to The Killing of the six journalists 04 from Al Jazeera and then to freelancers in Gaza

No, this is absolutely devastating cpj worn.

Several weeks ago that was concerned for the life of an assassin reef after and Israeli military spokesperson shared stations that anusol Sharif was involved with hummus and a ghost and for which no evidence was produced and our experience is that this is often a precursor to the turn the lights being targeted in order to justify it what particularly disturbing about this incident is not just that enough alsharif was targeted in the attack, but the entire news crew was wiped out in a deliberate targeted killing that Israel has admitted to that killed several other diners and Israel has offered no explanation for why it's off its to kill those journalist who are considered civilians in war because you're so going to ask what project protections journalist have under the laws of War

I know it's very clear on this point journalist are considered civilians in a war setting and they enjoy full protection of international humanitarian law provided that they do not Direct part in hostilities and I think we need to be very clear about this Direct participation in hostilities is understood to mean act of War that are likely to cause actual harm.

You passing out and equipment of enemy forces so propaganda for example wouldn't be considered Direct participation and just going back to those claims about an ass al-sharif Israel saying is the head of a hammer sell what do you make of that claim and indeed the cpj when an army during a conflict makes a claim like that but a journey is a competent or a member of an armed group.

How do you assess those claims? Is it your job your role to do that when I say we have seen no credible evidence.

Member of Hamas leader of a mast cell the idf produced on x formerly Twitter and documents and it said showed that an isosceles had been in those do not show anything in since October 7th and experts have cast doubt on the credibility of those documents themselves as we're not able to verify them the idea not share with us The Originals are those document so what we can do is to investigate to the best of our resources and an what I said and did we are not an investigating thoughts.

We we don't have access to the same kinds of information of course that the Israeli army has but what we do have covered.

There's not just in this wall but for the past several decades is that is really as ever produces significant evidence to back exclaimed and these claims.

Unusual the journalist is a terrorist and as you say Israel has not said anything about the other jam less involved.

What does that mean then if you saying in strong terms that what happened to them set aside and asked me for a moment.

What happened to them.

How do you characterise that in terms of international law I am saying it very clear times at that constitutes a walk like crime deliberately targeting a journalist knowing that they were a journalist and a civilian is a walk round.

This is a war crime and well as we know if reported.

It.

Many times doesn't allow international journalist into Gaza to report freely so of course there is a reliance on freelancers and local journalist the cpj.

How do you assess how that's changed the coverage of what we see the way the war has been reported? This is really important to remember.

Can you get messages from people saying this is a war of course you don't I just get killed in a walk.

This isn't like any other wall.

It's not like any other wall because no foreign correspondent has been independent access to Gaza since the start of the wall that unheard of I know many foreign correspondent who covered most of the most severe Wars and conflicts of the past 20 years.

They call this unprecedented.

We are entirely reliant on Palestinian journalist for information about what's happening inside Gaza and they are under unbelievable pressure not only have you seen what Sam be directly and illegally targeted that they have core subject to the same deprivation as everyone else starvation constant displacement the fear of being bombed indiscriminate bombing covering the death of their loved ones and what it means.

Is is that we get our information about what?

From them and the burden falls and Kylie on those Germany's for our information about what's happening in Gaza and the fewer journalist.

We have the less information.

We have what you were talking about there was under Israeli jurisdiction those it is really just restrictions.

What do you know about the pressure or restrictions from the homicide on what's get reported from Gaza because presumably that also is a pressure.

Yes absolutely we reported on that there is absolutely pressure from Hamas to control.

What journalists say and do within the territory but of course there are journalists many many done is reporting from within Gazza who are working for and have been vetted by a variety of news organisations include the BBC and continue to do that work so without having again that international media allowed into the territory.

It makes it even harder for us.

My either side of the story either what is there anything or what is saying and doing juddians work? Thank you.

See you of the committee to protect journalists consider how the Israeli media has been covering this warm or in persico is a staff writer for 7th.

I which describes itself as an independent Israeli website devoted to journalism and freedom of the press are very welcome to the media show I wonder how the killing of the Al Jazeera journalists and the freelance journalist has been covered in Israeli Media well in Israel video of the is not referred as a journalist and has referred as a terrorist journalist that is really Media completely buys into the pr campaign by the army stating that was in fact tourist part of the Hammers organisation and apart from

Are rats and some small independent Media outlets most of these really Media is in shock by the fact that international media season is a journalist and fed dogs were headlines in Israel look at how the international media coverage of the death of this terraced.

Why would they do that and to what degree do those sections of the Israeli Media interrogate the evidence or information at the idea for Israeli government shares to justify the targeting of a journey such as an Ally Sharif doesn't really care to to make an effort but if you do want to get some more information.

I've tried to receive some information from the idf about what are exactly the evidence that they have it's very difficult and very frustrating the most I could.

From the past almost two years now in various situations similar to this is where in the Gaza strip and at what month the war was a document found this same document that supposedly proves that he was a terrorist.

I did not get the original document ID ID and get explanation why this document should be considered real or fake nothing like that.

It's very frustrating most of the time.

You just get annoyed and in one case a few years back targeted Killing of journalist it took like a couple of years before I got a no comment more broadly orange tell us about how Israeli journalist go about reporting.

What's happening in Gaza well since.

Jelly Media is not very interested in what's going on in terms of the Palestinian population live in most of the coverage is about Israeli troops if you want to enter Gaza it's possible to do that if you're in bed with your mate.

It's the same for Israeli and foreign journalists, but that's very limited scope of or in the number of foreign journalists who have been able to in bed with the idea has been relatively low is it more common for Israeli journalist to go into Gaza with the idf it is it is more common after service Association appeal to the High Court request free entry for independent reporting the idf said it will allow more for Angeles to enter in bed, but I guess their main.

Occupation is with the way that the Israeli public sees what's going on in Gaza and less about what the international media Caesar reports.

I'm interested that you mention Israeli public opinion is Israeli Media also interested engaging Palestinian public opinion not least in Gaza with regards, Palestinians views of Hamas not really and I have to stress again.

That is embedded patrols are not really a substitute for in recording in Gaza you go with us soldiers to a specific place where the spokesperson allows you to see a very specific thing.

You're not allowed to speak to anyone without permission and the most streamed saying about this waiver that you have to sign in order to get in is that any material that you catch a while?

In Gaza any photographs and video has to be approved not only by the military sensor which makes sure that it doesn't hurt national Security but also that means that if by chance you do get to see recorded even speak with someone saying something which might show Israel not the positive light do I get spokesperson can disqualify it, so what you're left with is more idea, hasborough propaganda.

Call it what you want staff writer for 7:30.

Thank you very much indeed now to an interview.

That's getting a lot of attention.

If ended interview is the right word for it last week the former CNN Jim Acosta recorded an exchange with an AI Avatar of whacking Oliver a 17-year old who was killed in 2018 in a school mass shooting in Parkland Florida

With the support of his parents and AI amateur of Joaquin has been created will talk to his father in a moment about their decision to do this and about how it was done, but first this section of the exchange between the Avatar and Jim Acosta Joaquin I would like to know what your solution would be for gun violence rape.

I Believe in a mix of stronger gun controllers mental health support and community and we need to create safe spaces for conversations and connections making sure everyone feels seen in it's about building a culture of kindness and understanding.

What do you think about that this AI Avatar was the idea of working parents Manuel and Patricia Oliver they are also found as of the advocacy organisation campaigning against gun violence called change the ref and Manuel join us now hello Mama Welcome to the media show thank you so much for coming.

It's always difficult circumstances of course to talk about this, but this is very interesting to us.

Why did you decide to create an AI version of your son? Well? It's part of a process we lost 14 almost a years ago and patrician myself.

We've been trying to increase awareness when you can stand on planets in our country and we have the dance several campaigns.

We learn from that process technology Gables option so so we thought we could we could have 14 and create an amazing tool to communicate with people and prevent these things from happening.

So it's basically I can play that will try to Express in a more powerful and Powerful way, what happens when a country allows this to happen and how is it work?

What did you use to create it? So I was 17 years old when he was shot 4 times inside Heath school and when you're 17 years old this these days you have a lot of ways to express yourself, so what you had as social media channels hero a lot of things he loved to write so he wrote stories.

He loves to read you love sports, so all his preferences and everything that he was able to express that we know he did we upload to this engine and then create a personality the voice that I just heard that is exactly my songs voice and yeah, that's that's how we make it so that the hole.

How do you make savoury version of Joaquin even though he was killed almost 8 years ago listening to you say that it's heartbreaking and wonderful at the same time to be a hero your son again.

What did you make of his interview with Jim Acosta and did any of the responses you obviously knew him very well, but did any of the responses surprised you surprised and I'm pretty sure that game is not surprised either Woody hat the bum program ready.

We need it at same level of impact way to present it to the world so we decided to go on but his birthday that was August 4th and we decided to go with Jim Acosta now.

So there is no good offers to your CNN not wanting to learn something because of some ethical principles or whatever so it was pretty.

Put it together and yeah, there was what I was expecting an interview United Kingdom so that means that we need it right.

We're very glad you're dead hello.

It's in the Studio with Katie thanks for being with us.

I was wondering if I was watching one of the exchanges did Jimmy have to put the questions he wanted to ask into the system in advance or was that all happening in Real Time in real time and listen to the hall.

You will realise that is happening in real-time the fairies that can also upload information and 14 will say whatever we want him to say that it's this interview because they started talking about Star Wars and let me tell you something if I have the chance to send a message through.

What came that the

He's going to listen to I'm a Star Wars what happened to him.

Yes he answers in Wales with the information that we uploaded on that end in the first time and finally Manuel clearly.

You are convinced of this idea.

Why do you think that an AI Avatar of your son can be baps more effective than you speaking to the media about making the case that you're trying well that goes back to reality ok? And you don't feel these on daily basis, but we do with more than 350000 people have been shot here and Anna and

My interviews are enough other kids interviews not enough, so I'd rather take a chance and put this together and maybe this one will work by the way this is just the beginning the interview was an opening of a new chapter in our organization.

You will be working with his own social media channels Ewell silver Kane maybe with salt allowed me to to raise a Legacy of my son and to learn more and more people get to know him.

I won't stop using the technology.

Thank you very much for talking to us Manuel we appreciate it.

That's Manuel Oliver who's the co-founder of change the ref well, let's bring in Clare Lebowitz head of the AI and media integrity partnership on AI a non-profit partnership of academic civil Society industry and media organisations focused on responsible article artificial intelligence welcome.

Considerations first for the media of engaging with this kind of Avatar really reveals the central paradox the most impact for AI uses for generating Media for advocacy in storytelling are also the ones that really challenges a relationship with what's real and true.

I think it's forces us to confront AI takes in a context where this cause is urgent and then your motivations are sympathetic, but that makes it compared to malicious used regulate the technology.

This is one where it emerges from grief and a necessary Fight For Change so there's this question about how we deal with posthumous right 21 likeness, how we provide the right context to audiences making sense of this content as Oliver has done by making clear.

This is an avatar and how journalists.

Consent and the stories they tell and bring audiences along so we enable the truth telling potential of this technology.

Is it ethical issues as I asked you about but I also something almost more fundamental than that if we think about school shootings in the US one of the things we know haven't looked at them for a while now.

Is that they are subject to a lot of conspiracy theory that people say and I've been court cases about it that these things didn't happen.

So when an avatar is talking about this sort of subject.

Is there a danger that that guitar by being AI that it could actually muddy the waters make people really believe there's a conspiracy things are true.

Yes, there is that dangerous we don't want people to discredit real evidence and there are technical solutions for supporting that but there's also a dangerous all over with saying and people not paying attention to the stories and not hearing it and emotionally evocative way.

What happened and being reminded in a powerful story about the issue at hand so it's to fold in different institutions have different perspectives at the partnership with many institutions including the BBC and ACDC from journalism and both took a different approach to using the technology the BBC and a case study that they wrote with us have they want to tell stories they used deepfake technology to preserve the anonymity of people in a documentary about Alcoholics Anonymous on the BBC and they were in the story with appropriate disclaimers and labels, but the CBBC on the other hand too kind of this approach that you're describing which is actually we don't want a muddy the journalistic institution and if we start using this technology it will confuse people so did you just do interrupt you think that's some journalists Mayall should refuse the interview avatars.

It's a great question.

I don't think refuse all is attentive to the is really a way to move forward and we work with civil Society organizations who are keen to use these technologies in artistic projects in social justice basis to help people tell story, so I think refusal would be ignoring the ubiquity of the technology and its potential, but that shouldn't be very sensitive to the consent that was received as we see here next of kin was very involved in the process for Jim Acosta maybe you should have refused is it some you know someone detached from the Oliver family who did not actually have that kind of ethical responsibility of your steward of their sons Legacy what is the 1% we talked about that is kind of an intermediary.

Ok? Thank you.

Sorry to drop us.

So that makes it very clear.

Thank you so much Claire

From the partnership on AI that last week a story by the housing correspondent at the eye for the homeless minister to resign she was a hypocrite over rent increases for house shootings in London Ali attended her tenants contracts in order contract in order to sell the property but within 6-months.

It was relisted at rent for rent at a higher price something that would be banned under her government's upcoming renters Rights Bill in a letter to the prime minister that she was resigning because she didn't want to be a destroy.

She also said she wanted to make it clear that at all times.

She had followed all relevant legal requirements.

I believe I took my responsibilities and duties seriously she said and the fact demonstrate well the eyes Vicky Spratt broke the story and she joins me now Vicky did you know how big it would get straight away that it would lead to a resignation.

And I think yeah as soon as I saw the message come into my inbox from the former tenants.

I was aware that this was a big deal for the government because if you were coming in after the to try to reform private renting and couldn't get it past their own backbenchers and you're saying hey we're different.

We're not a party of landlords, and you've also got to keep landlords on side of your legislation and then your Ministers who is a landlord is doing something you're trying to outlaw.

It's a big problem and that's before we take into account.

Let's not forget for people had to move house when they thought they'd found a home that we're going for a long time and she was the Minister for homelessness and how did you come across the store your say an email came into it was that the first thing in you about it or was it before that it was it was actually my Instagram DM and they have contacted me and it went into my other inbox.

So people who follow me and people who I follow going to my main inbox, but I keep an eye on the other inboxes with people.

I don't follow and they had.

To me to say this happened to us we really want to talk about it and obviously is housing correspondent.

This is your patch but generally is it a witch scene for Janice he just mention of MPs who were also landlords.

This is something you looking at a lot and I guess how much therefore of this investigation was traditional on-the-ground reporting how much it sounds like a lot of it, was you did then have to go and find the people check it out.

Look at the house.

Did you see that it was true yeah exactly so the first thing to do talk to them find out about it.

It was indeed the rationale that is in government.

It was I check that out in the old-fashioned way by calling up the ministry for housing Communities and Local Government and verifying that from their checking contracts and then in the final stages of the investigation a colleague of mine while I was on the phone to the government went to the property to check the facts Instagram

Most generous will using some form social media.

How central is Instagram in particular become to your reporting? I didn't do it without telling you now.

No way and an Instagram specifically the grand more than Twitter I think there are lots of journalists on Twitter I think there are lots of a quote on quote normal people on Instagram and I think we as journalist should be wherever our readers are wherever wherever of us are there on tiktok there on Instagram if you're there and you put yourself out that they will talk to you possibly a risk that this may over rely on social media because we saw the last year the National Council for the training of journalists, what's the cause to train young journalists in skills like cold calling and door stepping in case they became too reliant on simply doing their investigations know absolutely and I always say to colleagues you have to pick up the phone that still the most important way if somebody contact me on Instagram I always call them and I think there's a biggest.

Which is relying on platforms that ultimately are owned by Tech companies in other countries Anything Could Happen to them that's on my mind a lot if Instagram suddenly, what can you do about it given the your Instagram DMS direct messages are sounds like a rich source of information absolutely that's not existential question for industry.

There's not much I can do about it as long as people on social media.

I as a journalist have to be there in the same way as I have to be on email and I also have to be able to use my phone yeah, and I guess I started to ask you.

This is he mentioned it and it's starting to fall out with me which is you were saying about the idea of this government coming in saying there different and then so many MPs as we know our landlord, does that make it a very rich seam for journalist this this in your back.

Yes, but I am in others have reported this or stories in the past haven't they perhaps? I haven't lead to the resignation of homelessness minister so far.

Absolutely and we had these stories when the Conservatives were in power to that.

They're not new I think we've got a 183 landlords in Parliament at the moment labour actually have more than the Conservatives they put my peace that's like you surprised.

I think we should be fair members of Parliament say for instance if your Chancellor and you've got to move into Downing Street you might be renting out your house.

You're not relaxing gentle landlord rather than a buy-to-let investor so we should make that distinction some and peas but absolutely I think this is a question of power people in power having ultimately the power to control the housing security of voters of ordinary does getting a story with this level of impact also affect the number of people coming to you with potential other stories.

Yes the last few days.

You've been hearing all of my inbox is a full and if anyone has messaged me will eventually try and get back to you, but I should say that's quite common for me and I think when I started out as a journalist.

Finally adopted Instagram and some people definitely thought that was a bit silly, but it's not uncommon for me to get 50 messages.

I can reasonably report out in a week.

I can't report them.

I gonna say thank you very much for coming tell us about the one story that you did break last week and the impact this had that big is produced the housing correspondent at the I yes.

Thanks Vicky now in 2020 French police penetrated a supposedly uncrackable encrypted phone network called encrochat the phones were being used by international crime gangs and the police operational directions and movements and their conversations investigation in the UK was led by the National Crime Agency and led to the arrest of a number of prominent UK Gang members including Jamie Rothwell due to be sentenced this week and a recent channel 4 documentary called operation dark phone murder by text got inside access to film the process.

We have got loads coming at the moment everyone can see that we were tapping into the richest vein of high-quality intelligence that we've ever had if we got a minute do we know anything about computers were set up to join identify keywords for some of the stuff that we would be interested in talking about firearms and then each and every one of those cases.

It's pulled out and I guess the first priority forward is one of the programs executive.

He says he's here with me and Katie him and Simon we must start with how do you get access to this? How do you persuade those involved in the UK investigation into a chat to let you make a program the haven't picked up their phones and communicating everything over thought I said for a while it came from the fact that we built over a number of years very very good relations with.

Singer police officers in particular in Bedfordshire the deputy Chief Constable undercover policing and we do when we make it up again for me.

Please Kirsty the some of our best detectives with some disappearing off on something secret and Laurie is of pickled and we kept on saying no party doing what I up to in the meeting with him and we will see when he said I think I need to introduce you to the to someone very important National Crime Agency and potentially enormous police investigation and if they might well considering us to to actually stop filming at that was when it was alive and as it turned out it was 5 years ago it on there, but we have very early in the idea of you getting access.

Did you have to make the case? Do you have to say to those involved in the investigation look it's worth your while.

Look at this.

I think I need a couple of things one.

They knew it was unbelievably big for them and they didn't let me know how they get it out there and I think over the years later level of trust whereby they knew that we would we would absolutely tell the story is as they were that we would listen to them when they talked about not giving away techniques that something was able to have a high-level conversation that said look if you share this with us.

We can talk about ways in which we can make this not a risk to the work.

You do but to reveal the what you do when they agree to that and you are getting access.

You must have been overwhelmed by the number of storage.

You could possibly tell perhaps in a different way to the think he was describing with reference to housing.

How do you decide which days you're going to focus on and do you have to clear that with the police first but it was absolutely overwhelming amount of stuff and millions and millions and millions of messages.

Across the world in Europe in particular ages though even package it up into anything vaguely comprensible it was also they had these extraordinary explicit messages, but they didn't have the identity of so they would have the names of the of the user handles on on the phone, but not the actual names of people so we basically approached by saying what's your biggest challenge to you and the biggest challenge they had in the initial status was to stop people being murdered.

So that's where we we went into said tell us about the murders.

You're trying to prevent and one of the ways you go about telling these stories is that you have attic reconstructions of how some of these people involved in these crimes were interacting with each other were talking to each other did you have any concerned that my look like a drama be exciting to watch that without glamorise these people which is really paradoxical when you know that these are top level gangsters.

Who live a glamorous lifestyle if you're trying to display, how they do.

How not to glamorizing I suppose if anyone watching a program what they'll see is.

They were fools like me the Old criminals.

They make one big mistake and because they communicate who they are eventually give themselves by their use of social media suddenly that exposes them so actually they become figures of laughter as well as soon as individuals operation dark phone murder by tax is available to stream on Channel 4 and Channel 4 documentaries on YouTube but you also mentioned another program you been making for a very long time which we must ask you about silly because both programs he made for the production company the garden sign and we're talking of course about 24 hours in police custody which is entering its 11th year sure everybody listening onthebab is a documentary series that follows Bedfordshire police as they investigate cases Luton is obviously a format that stood the test of time there was 24-hours and early now and 24hrs in police custody how at the Beginning did you gain access to Bedfordshire police? What were those first?

Did you have to assert editorial independence? How did it work? Well? I'm smoking programmes about criminal justice about the police.

I think they knew that I paint it with a very sceptical mindset of my programs that expose police corruption and please racism and have conversations with the garden which were essentially why do we tell the story of modern policing we should not sit around a bit and thought about it and we eventually thought it surely we go in there and say look it's all about water.

Lol you give us the flight to put the fly on the wall and will tell it as it is let's go find a police force who wants to be transparent and we happened upon Bedfordshire please who are amazingly progressive and forward-thinking to you because it meant the when I as a genus going ask a please because I always go to bed because they've been very open with you and therefore used to film me very small small force with some of the biggest problems with the opening pitched.

The Channel 4 was this is big city problems in a small town when we were doing Luton we've obviously over the years fusion expanded the range of the programme that meant that we have a very pretty conversation essentially say you don't have any control that you can trust that you want tell the true story and 24-hours a day.

Are you your presumably not but there's this whole thing where you must feel a lot of stories also that you cannot show at the end found not guilty or something in and they say no.

It's a lot easier.

If someone is found guilty but that doesn't exclude us doing it at the Beginning we were very much for the size of Life program.

So we would have 7 cameras film you all day and then we were trying to make programs also can hear about what was going on but fairly earlier on I cannot realise that actually the thing the audience responding most positively to were narratives real story and that would enable us to actually tell real stories about things that mattered so that we could say there's a problem with the fact the ropes.

I'm being prosecuted.

Let's follow-up investigation from the beginning to the end and see where the

Solo quite often what we demonstrated success we actually do show the ups and downs and the fact of are so the rich and really good relationship means the police understand.

That's what we doing and I think what makes a program both engaging and also sort of really compelling for the audience because they are on the shoulder of what's really happening that issue of consent because I'm sure lots of people have watched the program wonder how this works.

What does it work for the people who the police are interacting with and who you're filming was several hours that such as you are the most common psychological elements and I didn't anticipate this which is if you're in the police station if you're being held in the cell and everything is hostile and you'll be accused of stuff and someone comes to those who are you? Why you hear what's going on in your life.

We can't talk about the crime but tell us about you.

That's a really good opened open question and the people respond.

It's only normal numbers of people who is the most.

Is crimes would say well, I'm I'm saying they start giving interviews alone.

Never would have guessed that in a million years so a lot of people do consent to have this story told some people don't and then it's the same principle of journalism reporting which is if there's a highest highest standard of public interest then we can tell that story and that's what we do.

I must also ask you about a story from last year which of course you'll be well aware of there in a litre draught letter Luton Borough Council was asking Bedfordshire police to stop working with the Show because the Council was saying it was damaging the towns reputation when you saw start watching the program.

Please the fact of the matter.

Is that although we started in Luton actually? We've made it now.

Maybe not that we've sort of some of them wait for 5-years to be broadcast so the reality is that when making programs all over all over the east of the of the country on with all sorts of police forces, Cambridgeshire in particular, so

I can understand why Luton felt that you're making programs to demonise our place.

We would never do that as a place and are therefore more simply put the associations that some people were concerned with being created with Luton is a place completely they say it's the reality of what we deal with and that's the truth and soul know anything about not very profound affection and it's been quite a lot of time there at the beginning of making the series but there was no way that we were doing that we were simply making programs and bothered to watch the programme that Simon thank you very much indeed for coming in Simon Ford is the executive producer of operation dark phone and 24hrs in police custody both of which makes with the Independent production company the garden but I am afraid we have hurt until the end of the program that is it for this week for the media show thank you so much for all I guess the sign in.

Studio and everybody else who paid on the program but yes that is it for this week.

I quickly mention you can also catch the program on the BBC news channel and 30-minutes television version of it and you can make on BBC sounds, but that's it for now.

Thanks for listening.

Bye.

Bye.

I'm already Stewart and I want to talk about here is what I was a child.

I imagined a heroic future for myself which I would die sacrificing my life for a noble cause before I was 30 but my experience has the Middle East and politics.

Show me that there was something deeply wrong with my idea Harrelson from BBC Radio 4 my podcast the long history of heroism explores ideas of what it meant to be a hero Through Time these ideas changed who are the heroes we need today listen to Rory Stewart the long history of heroism first on BBC sounds.