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What do you do to keep your publication going tag1 a CEO of gay times to discuss adventures in a readership share scheme?

That is Google's AI overview Charlotte tobitt of press-gazette take us to the legal challenges publishers have just launched all that + Gregg Wallace isn't giving up without a fight are we heading for a world with just two public service broadcasters meanwhile in the audio Network Media quiz.

I will consult the clubs crystal ball.

That's all coming up in list of the movie club welcome to the show for the first time lovely to see you on the sofa.

Thanks for many years great to be like to hear and Charlotte joining us for joints from your own club environment.

This is my media Club thank you.

Don't worry.

It's great to have you here to so tired now.

You've got your own club membership who else would you like to add to our club roles? Do you know how many to choose that's someone I'd my greatly also.

A friend of mine is one part of Little Mix has gone to just come off of Barry to settle Glastonbury the reason.

I'm going to choose a door it's because I've always admired her way of speaking in interviews to the price but to the public via social media as well.

Such a way that so integral of appendix and so she is far greater as a friend but also the girl bands.

That's not always you can't always do that.

Yeah.

I think she's spoken to during those years is that real the X Factor years very tightly controlled drug analysis and you could have come out and talked about that subsequently but with so much can I put a tea so really such a no.

I think specifically this week and she just came out some content.

I was coming out soon talking about kind of power to follow your dreams your passions in this industry that it's over.

Play the album this is sort of themed around the the industry is called that's showbiz baby and she talks about how she shouldn't really going for a dreams but doing and Away you're not trying to get a tattoo with a cross the whole spectrum of the same writers of pop stars and staff and people behind the desk managers.

I just love her partner thing.

I think she's brilliant and she is a master of Media like she she she gets it right every time you have to be as a pop star also she may karaoke night.

So they really well Charlotte who would you like to add to the club list this week a little bit different from the last one and I'd like to know when a journalist at the Observer Chloe hadjimatheou who wrote the big salt path investigation.

That's been out.

It's made a bit of a splash kind of anyone that doesn't nose basically saying that this couple.

A book that film with Gillian Anderson and Jason Isaacs just come out.

It's based on that as well is quite a few allegations in there, but it was all about them like having their house repossessed and losing money and now the allegation is that the thousands of pounds from a former employer and there's quite a lot to it, but it's dead out for me especially because it feels like the first real major agenda-setting investigation the observers had since the takeover by tortoise so I mean if that's kind of a statement of more to come that's that's fantastic.

I'm perfect to change into a podcast series at some point as well.

That's that started.

Don't worry afternoon the reporting to Gregg Wallaces misconduct is yet to be published but that hasn't stopped the presenter launching a fuse attack on producer banijay, UK and the BBC

partly because he's just officially been sacked as the presenter from presenter of MasterChef what's the fact of the BBC house like a halt basically finished series MasterChef Gregg Wallaces in all of the acceptor series finale cos that's when he was suspended two are they just going to have to give up an entire series like I don't really see what else you can do with that but I don't know if you're gonna list some of the things that Greg Wallace the same but it is absolutely like gobsmacking year so my location to company in the BBC One common until the report published at Wallace says he will not go quietly has recently been diagnosed as having autism and not disagreeing with what he's saying, but yes, he's not going to disappear as he know I think I think the most outrageous into a lot of people is the fact that he's he's essentially saying why was autistic and

The it was a dangerous environment.

He is that phrase to say that he should have been protected by what about all of the people that said that they felt uncomfortable and unsafe working with it and I mean more than 50 toys really takes it up a whole whole Gear big thing about being cancelled and now is it maybe the people are kind of uncancellable the teacher and make her a case to try and stop himself being cancelled the papercut we've seen coming out more recently.

I mean before I go in.

I think the the thing that I was thinking about the story is thinking about the victim of the electric that come forward 50 people like that since saying I mean even if it's one person should be taken that incredibly seriously.

I think that only stories come out especially when they're kind of bigger press stories like this one so often that the people that have been involved.

An often subject this harassment or can a traumatised that experience either reliving it again in the very public way and we talked about victims of sexual harassment or abuse in the workplace in this way that can feel quite careless driving firstly.

It's about recognising actually that's an experience that people have gone through that can be really troubling and sometimes stay with your life.

So I think the the kinds of I get the dismissive language and the statement that he's saying come across as Edenmore shopping at things that reason because it's just sort of point of invalidating Fight to say your experience.

He doesn't matter and even so much.

I think my experience was bad as well.

So basically.

I think that's the thing that I find always just about the stories is invalidating victims coming forward is exceptionally difficult to do.

I think we saw a garden peace out today.

Wednesday that spoke that facts about how difficult it was to people and companies to come forward line that the environments didn't exactly to make me feel able to share this and then we make it even go by the by saying actually you're the problem.

It's actually your phone instead.

So that's going to put one but but absolutely I think the fascinating thing that we've seen as a brand write that into sex we mostly deal with the UK and us Media I've really think that come out of the US is this kind of new Playbook which is it is don't apologise actually is that one else's fault on in a weird way and he kind of work so it's been a successful payment for lots of people see Heaven by Donald Trump it absolutely had an apologist and I think what we might see with the stories.

What is that? What we've noticed? It is quite a similar pattern.

So you should have go out your mainstream Media I mean you know BBC mainstream as it gets right in the UK is so you sort of you should have go down and flu.

Kicking and screaming and then you move over you transition to sort of alternative Media but you arrive and those alternative Media sources as like this here because people let you know said that you desire for paying and you told them kind of D1 and now you've moved into this new space, so I just feel like we're going to see this happen again and that will be in podcasting and you tubing and a definite alternate sources and that person arrives at somebody who is lauded as you know brilliant and standing up against the system and I feel a lot in these environments are actually we just a thing as Pat and play again and support to help him find this new direction last year when he kind of went out on his own as well and basically blamed it on like middle-aged middle-class women and I don't really see how is the new statement all that one I really advise.

Former Peter point of view but equally there are plenty of people in the Instagram comments that still supporting him and agree with every word.

He said so I guess it is as a basic people that will play with in the right of Google's AI overview.

It's always be coming host of the show the Google Match Attax impact on news media actually the weekend mailonline.co least even discussing on the show the massive dropping click-throughs to read online they found it since I Google has the AI overviews legal challenge.

Yeah, it's kind of new Coalition of a few kind of group play unless this text Justice non-profit called foxglove.

There's a campaign group called movement for the for an open web they've done stuff about Google's very sticky plans before and

The Independent publishers Alliance which is a uk-based group of smaller publishers and they say that you know they know about the sentiment and bigger publishers although not directly involved in this one, but it's gone to the competition and markets authority and the European Commission and basically to the CMA the saying yes, you're looking at it and that's great, but we need something to happen sooner because Google is stealing our content now and it's a real threat British original journalism, so the kind of turn up the quickest the bodies are there to a judicator this thing exactly say they're asking for interaction like while you're looking at it.

Please.

Can you make maybe do these key things that would help which are letting publishers opt out of the AA reviews without having to opt-out of such which is currently one of the really frustrating things about it, too.

Google says you can but that you have to like doing no snippet thing.

That's what it's called, but that is actually means that you wouldn't get all of the extra detail about your search result and it's been shown that you know hardly anyone click through to those once over see that still bad situation and then the other thing is just simply to provide very patient for use of the content and it's pretty clear the impact that can have on these on websites big and small I kind of looked at some similarweb data this week see kind of the full got some big tables with all you can tell them to impress his that but basically it's showing an increase in zero-click searches for a lot of major news websites that means essentially for the search keywords that they're currently the biggest on how many times a day a visa?

Up and be how that's affecting search as well.

No one click through anymore and obviously yeah, we'll much discussed the impact on traffic and therefore ID Revenue and potential subscriptions revenue so their kind of their teeth or is I've done in the past week and there's plenty more to come and use a decent sized publisher of UAV captain.in what's happening with Google's AI snippets I mean yeah, so so many factors and messing I think I've been in the wrong gay times for about 7 years now and I guess broadly speaking you know when anything feel like I have approached it when everything feels like a game that you have to play you very wary of that bingo business model and a little bit of that hasn't that's it?

This isn't just about AI it's also Battersea before and when something is a game and you're playing this game with Let's Hear It an organisation that has this immense amount of power and control over of your success and you're in a dance with their is not a great long-term strategies and of course when when the party starts with starts changing the rules up again and and it was up now as I didn't even there's a person who runs the business myself and like I think it was on our side.

We think about whether or not that was viable long-term don't get me wrong though.

It hurts that we know we seen we seen a significant impact on on click-throughs and in the sense of them decreasing from Google we've seen a proportion kind of social referrals increase their 40s seems to be playing lesser role in our strategy with trying to get this relationship with our audience which is much more direct and getting them into sort of habits of coming to Apple to a website Direct

Of course you know I think when you have a close relationship with customers and with audience members they do that but when you're in this game has just looking for the collects all the time.

You're so reliant on his debts like Google I am that can be really forward a bit of everything.

It's a major have a bit of your ad revenue from that side, but the programme important that that's how that works that you need next minute.

You're not coming over a lion, but yeah, it's it's been interesting see it the one thing on our side actually that we've notices of course is an increased for the dinner.

Exist.

Is is this increase yes, yes different approach and I think we can have looked into that something.

What's the difference between Google's AI overview and it seems to be at least another seeing gate.

I'm showing on Google say overview it feels you know right you're wrong.

I don't know this number customer perspective of consumer perspective me very completely and I don't feel the need to go anywhere and even the links that kind of not giving a huge amount.

It's not a big thing which activity gives the kind of URL alongside the link button and kind of sometimes promise you to go to that publish.

I will that stores two more information on the Google side.

It seems to be the technology seems to be scared of skewing you to try to get all your information in one place and then and then allowing you to move on you can take different approaches of companies that have the same access to all the data into a different way absolutely fine with the yeah exactly that and that's why I think would be quite interesting actually we've seen that she some of our traffic boosted quite a bit from that sort of course that didn't exist two different approaches, but also you know I think when I turned back from the whole thing and and and look at it.

I think the thing that I feel I guess.

You started this made about is big text on going like a kind of value when it comes to Janet's there's just never been this mutual respect is a shame because I think they could have been that this kind of mutual understanding about what the two kind of entities all the kinds of organisations would do with each other and how they could work together and it's just always been this lack of this lack of respect for each other another and Industry ghostly faces of court and journalists offering money to publish the do certain things round tables have they have they given up to it now? They are they're worried enough about AI for themselves.

Let's cancel those nice round table lunch Google literally put out a study a few months ago saying news brings us no value, which publishers could not believe so that felt like a real.

Significant moment in that changing relationship the press Gazette yeah, I don't know I don't know if about the aov specifically yet to be honest for us, although.

I mean I have seen our content showing up in them so it's not that we're not there.

Yeah, I definitely at all of Ireland six are in a bit of a flux to be honest like kissing Twitter used to be huge for us all the time and now it's absolutely tiny.

It's just changed so so much is an annual Google Dancewear changed and bad news good news on it's just the same but have one moment now.

I find my project and open up Google Analytics it's like where's the

Month-to-month changes yeah, you are absolutely right and and and also I guess between the publishers.

It was a kind of thing I could work out the change in a mess and got a capitalise and you got a bit of a first mover advantage and then you should have set yourself up for a year be absolutely and I think the other thing at that.

We've again taken know of is a much broader level looking at the big tech organisations that lad from the US and seeing that kind of shift politically over the last 6 to 12-months and kind of a payment with obviously that the trump administration and I can a general distain of median.

I think that I'd like to try that point like I'm not surprised that these organisations are coming out and talking about the fact that you know in Their Eyes meet you used to love isn't particularly valuable giving permission to absolutely because you've got now A kind of discos politically and socially which is like you know.

Anyway, where can I find without it as we can have also watching like you no significant demographic backsliding will come Tuesday everything's fine.

Isn't it? Because it's got socials saving let you know not to be to do agree, but I think I feel kind of broadly quite concerned about it.

So I guess what I'm looking at these specific things.

Yes, you know I was saying like an impact on on they are you I guess in my role and kind of what I'm trying to do is be like right.

Please take 10 steps back because it always reacting to the thing that changed this year.

We're not looking at the border shows and trying to say Peter bazalgette was in front of MPs this week morning not the first time that the size of UK public service broadcasters could go back to what it was the 1970s.

What does he what does he mean what you been saying? They don't get the funding support there's no but there's been a strategy to to ensure.

They are forward-looking health which is something that I

Nice so for example.

Yes, we've had the Media bill now, but it took so long and so much campaigning for something like asking for PSV on streaming in smart TVs and everything in the end that that does feel like again, but like was saying it like quite a simple thing but the process is always so long, but you seem to think that is going to be to public service broadcasters rather than the three that we've for that.

We've got now to specify when obviously has some in mind and it was suggested to him that it will be the BBC and ITV and again.

He made my point that I related to a lot which is essentially especially in that feature weather's few PSV we really need to figure out the funding future funding for the BBC especially.

With what we've just been talking about with Google will always big tech threats to kind of your Legacy outlets of which the BBC is kind of the biggest in the UK it would support journalism and therefore Democracy in the UK so much if we are more secure in the BBC funding has more more of a long-term view it doesn't have to keep strong scrambling to figure out what it's going to have next not include the world service as well, but you know obviously I'm saying about the journalism, but the entertainment side does play really important role, if that doesn't again have to keep scrabbling every time there's an advertising market downturn.

So yeah, I think what he's saying is kind of really good morning, but I'm pleased he's seeing you at the BBC or production companies been on the ITV bored as well cancels and is a good person to listen to.

Abercrombie be surprised that ITV and Channel 5 have public service Commitments as well around the local news and in kids stuff, but he's probably a couple of broadcasters recovery support for with all these keep you all these promises that I think to your point.

I don't know if the public left early recognises the value it anymore.

I think maybe for me grown up the idea of a public service broadcaster was actually relatively firm in my mind.

I don't know the branding it if you like a little bit more clear.

I guess it's time you as moving on and we obviously have this kind of the proliferation of media and kind of social media different difference is I don't know the public see the value in it as a comparator other models and maybe don't consider that I don't understand the licence fee and understanding what that's doing but not necessarily that these are the broadcast have had.

Service responsibilities and it also quite a bit.

Love you too having to pay the licence by my parents decide to go and pay for Netflix I'm not consuming BBC content why the BBC doing this to me rather than perhaps like of the government's have decided that this is cool stuff to have yeah totally and also I think the the way that I guess the BBC shifted.

I mean the studios division that goes really well internationally even that kind of recent Disney plus dealing.

I think that that gives as perception when you were younger consumers that this is like a kind of you know successful organisation that sort of cutting deals without major corporations right especially that us us programming.

So why am I subsidising it there in the UK when they seem to be doing just fine so get the push back and understand it, but I do think on that consumers.

I just don't know it was enough that's been done to say this is what we're doing and this is where the money is going on the public side and this is maybe right.

Charlie come back to go to BBC licence fee renewal a couple of couple of years away as you were saying earlier.

It's a very slow process for something that moves that moves so fast and then government really wants to make any big changes either to the game but when it comes to it.

There is an amazing option people just never thought of before I mean she say I think Lisa nandy's kind of expressed interest in doing something more radical than anyone has for quite a while, but I don't know if that would like to happen, but I would say I'm kind of in the context of everything you just been saying now is maybe the time when it would have to be shaken up a bit as you say you know there's so many other streaming services and people don't really understand.

Why why am I practically forced into this one and it's

Either explanation of the value proposition that doesn't really have them that well at the moment maybe just a really good marketing campaign.

I don't know but only have one of those for a while about the BBC BBC is always the best subscription model if you don't pay if she had to go to jail and then you get fined it's the perfect yeah.

Ok when we return widegate.

I'm just looking to it's readers to invest in the future will see you in the moment.

Hello.

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I want to watch kids if you had line through been discussing in the club this week for your discussion on last week's show the online creators of Seeking government's recognition trade body audio.

You have been pushing for seat on the creative Industries Council currently no part of Radio podcast audio books is recognised as a creative industry by the government.

There's a letter you.

Can I think that's a bad thing checkout not show notes building a US version of the app just in case things get spicy with the trump administration.

That's according to take out the information currently the current app has to close in March 2026 IMO Fallout from the guards Medics documentaries deadline reports that the attempted to insert a clause in the contract to rent criticism being aired publicly given bend a outburst of the Sheffield doc Festival last week.

I don't think that works.

At least all of our stories are available on our substack.

Just had to remediate club.com free to sign up to and you got lovely Mike from us every week at with links to all of those stories tag and she still with me to talk to you about gay times this year was not looking super great from a business perspective lost quite a lot of your I wouldn't want to come on and talk about but you should have come up with a slightly different way to deal with that but tell me just general Media trouble or something particular to your vertical section of the market is definitely a bit of both and I do think though I say the big majority of what was the EQ specific especially gaytimes exposure and I can have we been set up and also I markets right, but you're right people don't want to talk about the stuff.

I always

A bit differently I mean I think I guess one of the things about coming in and taking over.

It's not sure I look like a picture of myself now and I like first week and think that's a child under 31, but when I got the job and so I guess that that's brilliant naivety that you have is just like why wouldn't I I mean? I'm I've been authentic and have said things so far I tried I not and so I've always try to have a slightly different approach when it comes to the leadership of a of a media entity and try to be a bit more honest with the audience so far so good on that with this.

Let me know it was a big you know the time.

We do we want to talk about this.

It's challenging my phone organisation to first up as he actually with having ready to have time but we see the huge shift in the advertising.

I mean I think about is in and that's because trans dramas.

The long story short radiators that we we had this tremendous kind of shift around brand marketing when it came to diagnostic not just out of the ticket in you so different.

I was published as well sweetheart.

You know black metal jeans women of colour Muslim audiences in UK really great relationships the big Media agencies and these Media agencies right and ask what happened with brands and look if you deversifi your media and marketing budget.

This is actually what you can get and I always say when I talk about the story.

There's always comes down so I could offer discrimination.

This is not about a business case I can show you the numbers everyday tyres campaign that we've done as done really well over indexed.

You know what sort of over deliver, but also compared to other media types.

We tend to do better right not too surprising from my perspective because you're often dealing with audiences that maybe haven't been spoken to Anna way.

They haven't had targeted marketing and they tend to respond quite well.

Cash influx can a post George Floyd and post to sleep exactly looking it now you know 2020 to 2021 and that's also guys.

We went from being a traditional 12ish print publisher in the UK basically to know number one Marcus us so we have the social transformation and it really was like being a rocket certainly know being like going from hundreds of thousands to millions to tens of millions of audience members of month so really exciting and then kind of coupled with that you have left in brand marketing web browser doing everything they can to diversify their portfolio and I should say I don't personally I think that's a really good thing and it made business sense and the agency from cells created funds to reach different ways yeah and also the UK interestingly most of these agencies here.

They have pledged the US side.

Is off my Commitments public commitment and these won't just will try it was very much.

We will do and and also on the brandside the clients the metre isn't the clients rights of the big bum and eating it appears in this processes and we would be off in a part of that so as I said it wasn't for my perspective.

I kind of cynical view does it make business sense and then in the USA when it comes to me? It's got this possible happened on election day and it really didn't it started in 2024 and we have this really well funded by the effort.

You've seen that in the US Media mainly is crossovers.

Obviously as always happens.

You know the whole the US nieces and the UK go woke go broke exactly and do it start in the US and that that kind of anti diversity advert was was kind of speaking originally about Di

Corporate ankle but then they was talking to track was this organisation to these would be big American consumer brands your targets exactly what they put some prize and if they were downgrading so like you were busy on the on the bad list am so in the past.

It was are you supporting you showing up in those Communities now? It's Communities if so, we're going through all of his energy and we're not talking about this more money.

Are you talking about like tens of millions of dollars and this has been my reports then you ask a funding that's going to try to lobby this or congratulations to divest to the shop exactly to be at stop doing this and what is really successful and I think because I mean audience.

They was growing in the US and that was on and one.

Are you out of market and business and hit fast it doesn't take long for that only come to the UK and so again like the real kind of shift Ross was we will never get a business.

These were campaigns that was secured the the contracts have been signed even the points actually paid for so you've got brands are paid for their campaigns actually saying can you please not run that it is not about business.

This is this is as I say often the kind of good old-fashioned discrimination a big hole in your business planning to take in one of the biggest advertising around work and sort of really have the future impact on that so I think I noticed this is this is 6 months before you actually went through this guy really tough point in Mid 2024 in a weird way 2025.

That's been that across although we talked about this now and I'm sitting here and we have publicly talk about it on the difficult decisions and exactly what used to be fly-by-night audiences into.

Every month I mean you sort of done that being a bit of a different way.

Yeah, well, I guess we're approaching it on both ankles, so we've known as the community investment and I think the great thing about 1 is that really like my love.

It's just been proud of London this weekend.

I was out on the streets.

I walk the parade at the front which was brilliant and you got to 2 people and they tell you that what games has been around for 41 years and an audience is not to sort of like you know a little bit of information.

These are often deeply emotional stories.

I think when the audience knows something that's happening with the organisation that they can support we get this great response that's gonna pop one but to be honest with everything.

We've we've done all this work with brands.

We're living in a reality and like you say we need to go on the journey now to actually building a robot subscription platform and that takes funding and that takes that takes two more.

We will send them to do so without community with.

You can now buy Sandgate because we've never done that before I called to now running A41 your business had to go and check make sure you haven't done in the past so we could say it we did the due diligence in the audience for community has never been able to have any ownership in the business customer of it.

So that was really heartwarming to see that response like a football club.

Not my expertise where they sort of partly allocated bit of a shares to be covered by the fans for the poem by the readers precisely and I think it's not just about the investment and funding it was about what does so when you are older you need and deserve an absolutely entitled to your mother's information you get to do a complete doing you understand strategy and if there is much of your audiences about big shift cross-culturally to say ok.

We kind of engaged up in this way.

That's all about brand work and and delivering to a marketing audience.

Can we put on audience in the centre of our stakeholder group and actually be a bit more quite a little son is that strange the transition from readers to the shareholders.

That's that's a big shift as adding and a lot of new people to have to tell them what you what you up to? Yeah definitely is I think though the the thing I find quite stimulating is good of how much trust they have in ascending order to do that and I kind of messages support off that I can people in fasting or buying some shares how much what's the minimum 22-in an individual accessibility super important especially for oriental think it's important that everyone can you take parts out? What's a reason about £16 one-off? Yeah? That's because it was and it went to organisations unless you should have had this floor on it like a grandad is huge amount of money to a lot of people so we want to make sure that is accessible and I'll be going up to what?

People absolute maximum £50,000 and again, it's about people saying I'm showing up and supporting in a way that financial but also I wanted for the part of isn't philippot that Germany was at the ultimate patreon perks.

It's like having a quite a lot of level right what you get for that are the shareholders in the sense that if you turn a profit they get dividends.

Do they get rewarded in a different way treated like a shower holder that so important to me to be kind of transparent and fair.

So they have the same shares there any other shower has there's no such a difference.

That's let's stay in that but also the rewards you like gay times child and pasta you get invited to events you get to provide access thing you might get a free subscription about you.

How much you invested and as you say it's a whole range of different.

What did the existing shareholders think about opening the door to some people but I think that's because you know the I guess the culture and the fibre of the company is always been around the community.

Yes, we're you know private business profit making business and Ngo charity, but there's always something more philanthropic in the approach of getting tired because of the the way that would have you said what percentage of the company the shareholders own not yet that he will be coming soon surprised.

It's a decent.

It's not it's not it's not tiny, but it's also not 50% but then it is important to cannot be honest with you want.

It's the same like this is an opportunity to be a part of this but I wanted many many people as so yeah really exciting journey ocelot is taught us a thing.

What kind of individuals care about the about the organisation because I've got some people put their money where their mouth as you get this great site that you talking about subscription options for print publications.

Do you think more you write about to go down this route as you say there are certain PlayBook I feel like a lot of publishers are doing at the moment with the weather.

It's full subscriptions are and if you like your party wall at the Mail on Sunday things like that, but you know yeah, it's a new kind of comparing it to that patreon because it's like pizza and subs act like a lot of people are willing Estate care about even if it's one individual creator or older brand like a x like people now want to be part of stuff.

I think especially.

Today's world is a bit more isolated in some ways to fight the internet so like when you have particular personalities or brands that you do feel connected to so yeah, I mean I don't want to like just suggest someone if it but I I do wonder yeah.

I mean I think I think a lot of people would be watching to see how this is going to be like this to me listen to other other see owners especially think on the doors Media sign in because you know yes, please sort of seen as big impact the gay times but those are the kind of diverse Media owners and publishers like I mentioned at the beginning.

I have also been sleeping pattern and of course I said right and you going Direction we can sort something similar and how did it go did vice I done it.

It's an excuse my time looking at your audience.

We went through the whole process of building investor personas giving the names.

You know traits and characteristics so we can sort some money absolutely really really doing the work.

It's an exceptional process because it forces you to do all of that work, but it's really rewarding because it is not as helpful from that's inside your understanding of what what read is really care about you and also kind of like what what parts your audience.

Maybe do have a slightly more transient relationship with you.

She's not going to value them but you just need to start for you and he might be hasn't been writing about pivoting and publishers.

Yeah, which is quite an unusual switch so so we're talking about the business post in Ireland and is a super interesting switch because it's unusual you know usually your

Either b2c or B2B in whatever you try and make work.

It's still within that that lane, but m interesting because a lot of what we write like getting to people directly super serving kind of a particular interest all those things obviously for B2B publishers that that works really well, and I think are some examples where b2c publishers have been struggling more with kind of the changes to Google and social than B2B ones are well.

They can just have that more natural Direct connection anyway.

See you in the end like the past couple of years business based on this massive transformation going from being 7-day Sunday newspaper.

Obviously business was in the name, but it was a lot more generous than that and now it's yeah.

It doesn't have that Sunday newspaper weekly workflow anymore.

It's

Traditional now electrician nowadays online workflow starting earlier in the morning publishing way more stories and it's working is it's gone from 3000 subscribers in January 2018 to Almost 12000 now and next year they hope and they think they will have The Newsroom fully covered by digital subscriptions which be a massive milestone about Focus with all these businesses and yours as well once you really have to think about it and rear lights on audience Which advertising which is about being brought means you don't often have to hold a different approach and also we found like when you're when you're here that for adsense Primark saying it's all about eyeballs will really trying to get these huge numbers and the massive reach and impressions vs.

Engagement is important, but normally when your Media planning is often.

This idea that you just selling it called us and you are absolutely right and then you switch it on its head and you're going hyperfocus.

It's all about engagement.

It's all about smaller numbers of people that really really good, so it's a very different approach for us as well as we go through this kind of transformation.

Just enough time for the audio Network Media quiz that see how much attention I guess I've been paying to the media news this week called Mystic Matt Devine from the tea leaves three media news stories guess you just tell me what's going on from my vague mystical experiences and once again audio network is gave me taking up this brief from producer Matt and supply the playlist to score today's quiz at the best of 3 so buzz in with your name if you know the answer to Charlotte you'll say and tag your say let's play mystic Matt I see a series of journeys across water and land.

But it's hard to see clearly because of the Giant Red Bull you're carrying tag.

This is the TV show at the UK format big red balls across different landscapes, is it going to head to head in a race to transport a gigantic ball across various terrains meets like wall or something like that.

This is totally like a god can a tit bit but as the nerdy things I do it was actually watching YouTube video yesterday about weird game show from UK and that's when I saw the story in the UK and it's in the way just when they get fined with a Channel 5 show was Dale Winton posted could touch the truck yes, do you remember I'm aware of the full backs?

And I watched the whole and I didn't I'm never going to get that other back of my life.

There's a big face by radio station is the last person to see how that does pronouncements number to I see familiar faces, but their melting slightly the telling me that used to be on the telly, but now they believe it is spitting image going back on YouTube yes, this is another TV property pushing into YouTube it's called is it called the rest isn't yes, the rest is bought it be seen that he seen this clip tag.

I've not seen that you know still and then I said I thought I'd love to see what people think they think this is great because

Yeah, they're taking off they have a gutted that is quite good to do a sketch show have you seen the picture of the 27th of the 1st episode is Prince Harry and Paddington Bear and other people I made the move from britbox.

There was a series britbox Runner think a couple of serious things just to add that level of the spoof, but it's like if you get it right you can get it really really wrong and you can do really well and I think maybe if you've got a appraising property in a format that people recognise that's going to get some good pick up and and attention and

Why not go for it mate? I'm getting another vision.

I see a spirit and eerie empty supermarkets are trolley moving on its own.

It's very real the video this site the first AI advert on Channel 4 yes made by spirit studios to one of the new podcasts.

What do you think of how it looked a bit better than expected maybe but I didn't really get mean.

It wasn't like that high-concept or anything so why couldn't they just that should trolley in a supermarket.

I did I didn't really get why they are elements added that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

Advert on that broadcaster push the boat and do something really crazy and cool.

I mean Street studios to a lot of things may become the TV out of their thing but they got experience they can apply to the concept.

Yeah.

I just want someone else this week about sort of expertise experience and maybe a eyes coming for expertise of its experience is always really bad.

What does it mean we can all make ads that will go on Channel 4.

Yeah.

I mean I agree with that one thing.

I've noticed that I sometimes do is use some AI products to always help me like storyboard when I saw the ad that can hire I need it as I have been here before I've helped the team pains or even with our case as marketing and you can't help it to storyboard out of the actually when it comes down to it having a real creativity.

And that kind of AI is you know.

I just don't I don't know if you can replace that fully and I do think of an audience perspective.

I spent a little bit too much time on tiktok and then it's just something about it that kind of switch off a little bit automatically from the audience perspective.

There is a slight uncanny valley.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a little bit creepy sounds that make Charlotte I wanna congratulations Charlotte as a prize you can go and just tell you the media club, so I can I'll be forever in your Debt Expert Aguilera and a bit of course Alexa audio network for this week.

Sweet of music remember.

You can build your own licenced for multiple platforms anywhere forever at audio work.com that's audionetwork.com keep up with your present that work.co.uk it's all there and social network wise.

Find me on LinkedIn probably is best at least your business work and also follow you well times.com and then you straight not far sociable and everything that we do I got court Sandgate iams.com I am on social networks.

I'm actually a tiktok at my Core also on Instagram at type 1 on both.

Do you know what I've got recently back into tiktok and weirdly enough talking.

I work a x seems to be doing great.

So that's a really nice to me people seem to catch so that's been some nice people.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening and watch as well remember.

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