Read this: Reporting on the British Steel crisis, should we 'ditch' intellectual property law? and Saturday Night Live for Britain?

Music Radio podcasts and Katie razzall and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week, what's it like reporting on the crisis and Drama of the story of British Steel we also taking a look at big attitude to copyright after the co-founder of Twitter Jack Dorsey posted delete all IP law on the platform now called x is current owner Elon Musk replied I agree.

Decking in petworld with profiling the Tech bro behind Reddit we looking at where the metal will be forced to sell off WhatsApp and Instagram after accusations of a monopoly hand is the UK ready for the hit American Show Saturday Night Live launching its British version on Sky next year, but let's start with the departure of one of Britain's best known for commentators from The Spectator magazine where she's been for 10 years most recently as political editor to the US Katy balls is swapping the intrigues of Westminster for the White House joining the Sunday Times as Washington editor next week and I'm delighted to say Casey you fit US into your presumably quite packs get you're welcome to the show thanks.

I haven't very welcome or you packed and ready to go.

That's the key question not at all packed ready.

Hopefully mentally ready, but maybe not physically quite yet.

Friday is going to be a long day.

Ok? I'm only now because clearly you know you've been

Figuring in reporting Westminster for so long, is it the west Monsters become a bit boring now and if you want a new Challenger what's going on? I wouldn't say Westminster come boring and I would certainly say Washington I'm very exciting and when you think about the news agenda.

I think particularly as a journalist covering British politics increasingly so much of what you're doing is responding to what's happening in America anyway.

If you think about tariffs is about Ukraine the really big stories and you get to the end of the day in the UK and that's around the time Donald Trump wants to sign executive Order or give a press conference and suddenly the whole of gender has to change fuse around 9 or 9:30 so do you like him or social out so I think you know it's where the big story is right now.

So when the opportunity opportunity came along if a bit too tantalising not sleep because I was going to ask.

Parallels between covering politics in Westminster and Covent politics in the White House it sounds like those aren't parallel.

That's just the story is the White House right now feels like that are some parallels.

Of course.

They are quite consistent in their own way if you think about the executive works.

I also think you think about the US Media at the moment is obviously in a point of a shake up.

It is changing and the White House wants to do that and so I don't think you can do a complete read-across and of course you don't want to be the brick come again thinking they know it all know you definitely don't really don't think it's very pretty fascinating and this one thing that does drop me that is a seems to be anyway a fundamentally different relationship there between media and government I am thinking about Elon Musk the battle axes is a huge Media platform and he's the face of Donald Trump's dose that department of government efficiency could that happening but I think it's hard to see it happening under the current rules because it?

Quite different in terms of some of the things that you expecting UK vs.

US for example presidential candidates tend to be so rich in America if you think about it, then the concert fundraising the way all of that works and then but there's such a crossover with business and some ways, where is not that is cheap to become an MP in the UK but you are slightly different ball game talking about accessibility and then I mean we're staying right now and I think it comes to business and politics in the US that mean it's coming to with problems with you that must have had his what are the stories that you're most most excited about heading out there, but I don't think it's going to be too quiet.

I think the predictable thing about John and is there it will be unpredictable not not to be a cliche as that she can't sit here and se04 expecting X and Y but certainly think tariffs and Ukraine the really big stories at the moment with her behave.

Olympics and then of course of in there looking for her head you have already the midterms where I think happened to learn it is Trump's world and he has at the moment of his party at that point.

It's going to start to grow different of the Democrats can make inroads and it could start it will be about who is Donald Trump successor and make America great again.

It's going to be a long time movement and changing the Republican party or something different.

Do you think that you will get out of Washington March I didn't actually the story is so much in Washington they will just pretty much be there the whole time depends if you're so Washington is the story and then of course as you move into midterms for £10 a factor of six steps and you can imagine self getting out a bit more, but I'm imagining do you see all the swamp is going to be where I be for some time to come and presumably your approach?

Is it lots of lunches contact building all of that you have all the contacts already or is it always about more schmoozing are always more contacts to be had I hope one of the parallels will be the contact making but I've had at the Washington and does not like the Westminster lunch.

There is less alcohol that stays home drinking apparently happy hours, where is that ok? Well? I need to know and I do because it's always hideous when you was wonderful to get a new job when you're very excitable equally you've got to do the conversation where you tell your current employer that you're leaving and you've already got a new boss there Michael Gove some people might have heard of him.

How was that conversation when you went in and said sorry Michael I'm heading to America for the Times and Sunday Times the times that the job and the challenge.

Number 10 knickers bastards, they keep it but we wanted to have a look now at one of the biggest stories in the news the future of British Steel last weekend saw the emergency recall of Parliament allowing the government to take control of the Chinese own plant in Scunthorpe and there's been the drama of the race to secure parking coal and iron ore supplies to keep the country last two blast furnaces burning there and I'm joining now on the line by Skies economics and data add-on Conway also by the BBC senior reporter at Look North Jamaica and Nick Jones the former BBC industrial and political correspondent, who is here with me in the studio welcome to you all and I'd like to start with you if I can because you and your film crew were the first team allowed onto the site for years actually just before the current crisis unfolded.

How did that come about?

Find yeah case it was it was it was deeply surreal to be honest.

I actually working as their on-site as the story that's just sent them or the government or precipitated the government and taking action with was breaking so it was it was it was incredibly surreal economics for Sky and I for a while have been I guess if you talk to economiste.

They will often tell you that stuff like making still doesn't matter if you don't have to do it in your own country.

You might as well.

Just important from overseas and the past can a few years.

I've been trying to explore whether that's actually rides and so I can I write a book about this a while back and as a result of the house.

I have unusually and economics correspondent a bit about the dysfunctionality of the way that we cover these things Night by Imagine your comes out with Nick it was me going there rather than industrial correspondent, but I've been quite a few blast.

In recent years just to mark the facts that we in the UK were on track so starting these places down and a master in honestly being able to make your own Steel in large quantities the steel is basically the foundation for all of the built world and if it is something you know that there's a phrase that everyone says within the steel industry if it's not Madoff steal so it's not actually metallic made of the steel or indeed Machine Tools that are made out of Steel and I figured the fact that we work in a sitting down this particular way of making skills through blast furnaces a way of making steel that we basically invented here in the UK you know go back to the Industrial Revolution and modern.

I'm making in steelmaking does not adhere it felt like that thing and it felt that we went documenting that as much as we could be so I bet you're being badgering British Steel and the various people for quite a long time to try and get it just the plan was always that we're going to start.

An electric arc furnace, so I can have more environmentally friendly way of doing it, but slightly more modern way of doing it so inviting them for a while and eventually they say yes and I suspect so I've been trying to work out.

Why they said yes, I suspect it had a lot to do with the fact that they have just rejected this offer of Help from the government.

They were basically hoping that the government was going crazy amount of money that was given to them and so finally for the first time in like half a decade they wanted to open up and be a little bit more open and what did you see when we got it was the day? I will remember it vividly listening also said it was just because it was it was the morning after the trump Rose Garden tariffs announcements and I done that on the News at Ten the night before and then the next morning we have this in the diary.

I was determined to do it as I drove up to to Scunthorpe and when I got that kind of expected when you go to these sites and I've been quite a lot of.

You expect to be putting on a good show you expect there to be a more-or-less consistent texture and it's because hearings and expect of the story to be listen.

We want the government to give us more money, but I have a big planet.

This is the Chinese owners when I got there it just felt very chaotic and it felt very surreal and the reason for that.

I am in my first haven't seen another blast furnace in in Port Talbot which is Natalie shutdown being tapped the amount of iron coming out of the blast furnace wasn't as much as I expect it but I know sounds like a kind of obscure nuanced thing to notice that seems right now because you know in the last 24-hours for them about points and the News there are still many workers who won't even aware of it at that moment.

I was on side.

They just discovered that basically jinye.

We're going to staff the blast furnace so they

What ordering end if you need to come blast furnace going you need to keep it started with a particularly coking coal and particularly iron ore but other ingredients as well and that stuff and they stopped all of the Order of the story most people are now familiar with the as a result of that.

There was only a few days left to make those orders which in turn would keep the blast furnace going so that emergency was breaking on the size at the moment that we were there which was I'm certainly was not the plan when when we were invited him by British Steel but it was happening and everyone was very shocked.

They were in a walking corporate offices which were totally surreal because they've been done up with lots of kind of Chinese slogans, which made it feel kind of more like North Korea's and then Scunthorpe times of things does it say something like your customer excellence lots of flower arrangements around the place.

You look like the kind of thing I didn't see.

Scunthorpe and you wouldn't normally expect in an office associated with still making walking through their and literally there is a board meeting an emergency board meeting going through that ASDA story is is breaking and people that kind of rushing around no one knows for sure what's going on and that was the moment you have in hindsight.

We know this now, but that was the moment it emerged that they were only days left to time trying to be in which in turn is the thing that has precipitated the government actually doing something and do something very radical TV channel is Absolute dream or anybody Genesis complete dream to be there at that electric moment it was also quite it was quite hard.

You know said to piece together.

What was going on inside like it was it was quite chaotic and it wasn't it was in hindsight.

It was it was an extraordinary extraordinary moments but also I was quite.

Work is there you normally like you know if you've been said to still places industrial sites generally speaking the meat there.

They're not supermedia friendly that most people ice and we'll talk to you, but the conversations that you have a Sometimes A Little Bit still tired and people don't want to talk to you.

What was striking about going to British Steel is everyone came out and everyone wanted to talk to us and I think that was just a testament to the fact that they kind of being buttoned up and not allowed to talk to the press for like 5 years and and and now have an opportunity to say we're proud of what we do and there was a big question marks about who is going to be nasty.

No one had a clue about that at the time, but they wanted that they wanted to kind of you like to defend their business and I think what I was my sounds unusual was it was quite a moving experience because they felt very much under threat and it felt very much like these people were very conscious of it and then as the day.

More more people with learning about you know this room was going on around about the amount of material left and so the mood just shifted to slightly more chaos as the day on fault.

It was it was pretty extraordinary.

I can imagine can we please discuss what I want to bring in Jamaica first, who's the BBC senior reporter at Look North Jo welcome to the media show I believe you have a connection in fact to that still can't to the area.

I do I thought that's where I grew up.

We move there was a toddler because my dad was a vicar and he was part of the chaplains teen so he works at the steel works as part of his job then so I have grown up with a steel works.

I had friends that went to work there and now I've already gone back in later life as a journalist and your father is that right? Did you say your father work there as well? What was what was you doing? My dad was he was a vicar.

He's been industrial Chaplin so he.

A team of a chaplains that covered at the time in the 1970s there were three different deal works around Scunthorpe so they covered between them at the three sites obviously by the time we left there was only one yeah, you've been covering in your role the ups and downs of the steel plant there for many years before the company was bought by the Chinese owners ginger and after talking there about the workers be feeling happy to talk to me that they haven't been able to speak to you.

Have you found has it been difficult for example to get access to the workers to get access to the manager over the time that you've been covering this plant but I think certainly since British Steel made the announcement months ago, but they were going to switch to electric the we didn't get a huge amount of information through you know regular.

Checks, as to what was going on and certainly the Union officials at Scunthorpe felt like they didn't know.

What was going on with very much kept in the dark and he's negotiations for happening between the government and between Sinn yeah.

There was a feeling that there is a very there was a very kind of top-down management style at the Chinese head brought in which also made people feel slightly concerned.

I think about talking to the press.

So they would often should have dropped out the line of contract.

We can't really talk to you.

See you try to cope and go around that by getting people who would just left or people who are relatives of theirs, but I think that's right that you know certain the last couple of weeks.

There was an opening up and whether that was Union official St people you know the journalist that I hear you're not here to trip you up not trying to find out your most deepest darkest secrets about the company.

They just want to know how you feel and how you're being affected by their there's a bit of that going on the trying to give people make people feel and

Genuinely, they did feel empowered because they were also feeling a bit desperate.

It was like a Alaska of the dice we better get this message out here because really especially last week.

Really did believe it was curtains and as somebody who's covered is a lot you can hear from you about how you can bring your local knowledge to this report.

Is it becomes this huge media event as it has done actually.

There's a lot that you can bring to it.

I think you want you automatically understand the importance.

I mean you know it's from an economic point of view still works a hugely important strategically to the country from the town point of you then obviously it doesn't employ anything the numbers that used to tens of thousands of people used to work there now.

It's about three-and-a-half, but it's still is very much the heart of that town.

It is very difficult to me anybody who.

Link to the steel works in some way, we did a vox pop a while ago.

We sat down at a cafe and literally the next week table or listen to what we were talking about and all have their own stories to tell people feel very emotional about the still works despite the fact that this kind of industrial monster sitting on the Edge of Town people it is the part of the part of that sounds history, but very importantly it's a huge part of the economy absolutely well.

I want to bring in Nick Jones is also he's form of BBC industrial and political correspondent as I said and covered so many of these industrial dispute from the late 60s on from the winter of Discontent as it's now known in the late 70s through to the miners strike in the 80s.

What's your impression the recent coverage from a media perspective not messing about the story but now it's coming straight away and from Joe is the workers there has a story to tell but have been unable.

And they haven't been the experienced industrial journalist on the case because I mean the press association news agency has an industrial class on the brother of between elsewhere on the media scene and it's not like of expertise because I think what we've I would have liked to have thought if I've been an industrial correspondent at this current time is that we would have been on the case described how he been on it from an Economic standpoint and Joe's talked about the local standpoint, but we is national industrial policy would have been I'm sure and I hope I've been digging away and finding out what the trying to find out what the Chinese owners were really up to but what Jo and Ed both described is the way in which suddenly last few weeks the workers have been prepared to speak but so often.

I think the commentary is that we haven't had the expertise on the part of the journalist real assessment of what?

Fallen back or tomorrow and we've seen it again and again at Scunthorpe is perhaps the only access is to do a vox pop is Joe says that often is a cafe or without leaving in his car when the wind is window.

We've not been able as we were in the past to sit down with workers with Union representatives and really get to the bottom of what was going on and it why is that because actually these days.

We don't get access the Union doesn't give access to just I remember dry when I was doing business with an awful news.

You'd ask the union rep.

Can we speak to people on the top floor whatever it might be having a baby but you never did we have a sea change in Hillcrest of axis mention the fact that so many of the workers have been told they would be reaching their contract if they spoke and of course the trade unions maintain a very very tight control over the information that comes out of their trade union and of course the union members of told they're not allowed.

They don't have authority.

All changed it was a sea-change.

I think we have the industrial mayhem of the Thatcher decade that later on we have the control of the of the Tony Blair government and the unions learnt the importance of controlling the message and now they can be very tight it can be very very difficult to find out what's really going on but I still think that a call of industrial correspondent.

We would begin to know how to get round those difficult moment and get the information and you wrote a book about ledwell the lost tribe whatever happened to Fleet Street Cinderella drill correspondence closing the title.

We started writing are a bit in the touch of decade of course we finally sort of gave up the ghost as a group and in about 2010-11 at the rest of the few of us here and of course we all agonise when we see these reports and we acknowledge the difficulty that reporters have today, but we still wish there was a sort of understand.

Journalist who had a national Access which we like now.

I might there be considering for example be covering rats in Birmingham the Dragon mounts if we look what's on the horizon you got big disputed, Birmingham and that's quite exceptional because it's an indefinite strike people haven't quite clock that the Union is funding the workers on an indefinite right usually, it's just one or two days a week and this this is for the big time you night then look at the autumn.

We going to have this great Employment Rights Bill which is going to give these tremendous advantages to work as it's going to ease the legislation potential strike action and then think of the next big issue.

That's coming up which is the defence industry, where all these defence jobs going to go we can examine investing out yeah? Yeah, but I'll be going to end up buying from abroad or is it going to be built in this country now the trade unions already on the case then it's got to be built in British engineering and aerospace and Shipbuilding factories so you can see there's another big employment.

Coming up on Horizon just an industrial terms as well as employment rights and Katy balls.

How have you been? Have you been covering the story you personally at the observed at The Spectator gas recovering much more from the Westminster perspective because of course you had a MPs sitting on a Saturday and at the artrix of a debate on medication really any dissenting voices he researched there is the odd Tory peer talking about three trade, but there is only cross-party agreement and I think there is a sense also of I think from the political perspective.

It's like you became a battle between Labour and Nigel Farage reform party to brand themselves as a party of the worker and that's probably more than angry been looking at them and play we talking about the Demise the loss of the industrial correspondent.

Can you envisage a colleague being Rihanna reacted not reenacted?

Are you getting a new colleague get Sky and another in other places which is in an industrial reporter in this new climate what knickers saying I I think it probably if you don't hear is that this the Demise of the industrial correspondent reflects the Demise of the industrial sector in the UK you know we have the industrialised nothing to some extent the accelerated under Thatcher and it continued on the blower in its continuing now.

We are deindustrialisation right now.

Just a couple of years of people talk by the way right now about in all these farmers demonstrations about what we're going to do we going to run out of food a couple of years ago.

We stopped making fertiliser in this country.

That is very energy intensive process.

So basically it was just too expensive to do it anymore in a chemical plant open in Teesside they stop making it and no one reported is no one reported it and it is one of the most important things in the world.

We are no longer self-sufficient for fertiliser.

We're having.

My steps in the US in from North Africa because there wasn't the person equipped to report it or why didn't know what to say but I'm basically has lent end the coming of The Last of an industrial correspondent and more deindustrialisation concerned because this stuff is happening and there's so few people looking a bit, but there's so few people looking at it, but there's just too much and it's happening and its significant historic Lee for this country and so I do hope you had at the more people focus on this without it.

We are in big trouble and without without being able to to talk so what industry does and what does steel is important in what they making an glass furnaces important?

Not be able to have that conversation then we are going to be a vulnerable place in the next two years, so I think we desperately need to have more of these conversations in the future, which will enable us 10 to screw size whether the government is doing the right thing and I think no one knows right now including by the way in the government's weather taking control of British Steel is going to be a good decision and that a lot of people are very it's not a good session, but because there's been a little scrutiny does far.

I think people don't feel a little bit nervous about one of the questions to be asked about this and there are there are many many questions well, you're coming on and we'll get you back on when your reporting war and further and find that find out the answer to that and also thank you of course the BBC Look North Jo Michael and Nick Jones here in the studio opposed by the co-founder of Twitter Jack Dorsey set the internet a light he wrote delete all IP law that's intellectual property law Elon Musk then leptin I agree.

Posted this debate calms as authors and songwriters another created across the UK and why they are calling for the government to protect their copyrighted works from being used to train AI models and join Now by Dr Hayley Boucher reader in intellectual property law at Brunel University hello Dr Mosher very welcome.

I think you better let it out for us first as you're the expert what exactly is intellectual property law who does it protect from what is broad term that means loads of different things so it's a real dramatic statement to say delete all IP because it means deleting this whole body of laws and loads of different types of creativity and Innovation everything from songs like you mentioned all the way through to medicines and basically we have all these different type.

That protects all different types of innovation creativity whether it's you've invented a washing machine or you've written a song or a book and what the law does is it give ownership to the creator of that thing and it gives them right so that they can licence and share the whole idea is to encourage for the benefit of society so we have this or social contract where we give these rides to the creators and in return as a society we get these amazing inventions like medicines or we get Theatre and culture and all of the kind of things that I P protect is about the argument that the argument for it.

What are the common argue against IP lol I noticed that some of Jack Dorsey supporters posted in response suggesting it stifles innovation and creates monopolies.

Argument to save remove all I pee more often we hear that the regulation needs tweaking and changing which I would agree with because because it relates so closely to in Mission and Culture the other things no technology evolves all the time and the way that we consume these commodities changes all the time so course the lawn needs updating removing it completely I would say the the main arguments we hear that the law has gone too far and maybe over protects and that's what they were they saying then it becomes a monopoly there is some truth in that because the creator is not always the rights holder and in some sectors of these IP kind of which Industries we do see these imbalances between the actual person who created the song for instance and then the record label that might be disseminating the song but I also scare creators.

I wonder if you know when it comes.

Songwriting does it does it is there an argument that it scares songwriters because they're worried that they're going to come to being someone else's copyright.

We have seen in the music and some really big lawsuits whistle the bed Sheeran case in the UK and the Blurred Lines casing in America and so the that is a really good example of where the law has a regulated and maybe gone too far and that did put fear into creative where they would be worried that they're going to be sued for infringement and I would agree that the know they're needed to be kind of brought back into alignment with the way that We Created the way that we can see music and was it as a result was it because it says the president is that what happened? I can't I mean I know Ed Sheeran won his case he did in the end, which was great because then it's awkward things back into the moment but in the meantime.

It was very nervous time for creators and it comes back to the Principal

Is to give these right so it shouldn't be idea is that it shouldn't scared l.

It should be it's their livelihood.

It's how they get paid royalties for their songs and then they can continue to create as that's the idea, but when it goes wrong and things maybe get out of hand and it's not it's not updated and and considered in the context appropriately we can have these problems and that's why it should be under review all of the time and we're talking about it's obviously because of Jack Dorsey and Elon musk's posts making clear their views and obviously we often talk on the media about this debate AI companies facing lawsuits at the moment alleging.

They use copyrighted works to train their models.

What do you think Mrs B says about Silicon Valley show me attitude towards copyright.

Is it changing when we just very recently seen the first judgement of those AI cases.

Filed in the US courts and initially the Silicon Valley approach was we're allowed to use your copyright protected content for free because we benefit from this exception is confer used in America is dealing in the UK I said they thought they could do it without paying a licence without removing meeting the owners and the creators, but unfortunately for them the first judgement that came out didn't agree and no not that doesn't apply here and you would have to licence that can you explain I'm going to drop nasty just to explain what fair use is also doing just means that the the IP and copyright give rights to the creators and the rights holders fair uses certain circumstances where you can use those protected work without paying the person with things like news reporting and for creating a parody and it's how the law balances the different kind of stakeholder interests.

So that we have limits on the extent of those right, so they don't last forever and there are certain circumstances where you can use a protected work without permission and the AI companies America in particular were arguing that what they were doing fell within that exception so that they didn't need to licence and pay for the work because that's not gone their way.

I think what they're saying well the laws not right then so we should just get rid of it.

So do we see that as a cultural shift or shift as a result of these court cases? I think that if you think about it.

You can't just because of Law doesn't go your way home early think that just saying the law should exist at all.

What is necessarily going to be a big shift in terms of the copyright protect almost every single business has copyright.

So the impact of what they're saying is much much bigger than just the way I understand it's all Industries that I'm gonna drop you because before I let you go I do wanna ask about a viral trend.

That's been taken off The Taking of the latest version of open a eyes chat GPT is allowed users to transform their photos into an anime star which many have called jimnystyle.

She do she do she obviously the acclaimed Japanese animation studio behind hits like my neighbour totoro and Spirited Away just the thing debates online about whether new ability on chatty BT and fringes Studio Ghibli copyright.

Can you explain a bit about that? So what we've been talking about so far to do with the data that goes into train the AI and what you talking about now is the output of the AA the thing that comes out the other end when you press your prompt and what's really interesting about that is.

To the limits I was just saying about copyright, so limit only protects an individual of expression of an idea and not an idea itself and what that means in practise is that things like theme and style aren't protected by Copyright which is good because it means we can create lots of things within the same theme and style what that means in this context is that the turn off the AI kind of looks like something else we know and may not being in French rent because we can't protect Style but in order to have made the a I must have been trained on the copyright protected and diversions in the beginning.

So it could be an infringement sort of from the input side, but it's likely on the output style if it's just copying a theme or style because it doesn't stretch that far.

Ok.

We are we are still open if it still was trained on Studio Ghibli work or infringed on it.

We receive this response our goal is to give you as much creative freedom as possible.

We continue to prevent generations in the style of individual living artist but we do permit broadest hairstyles with people have used to generate and share some truly delightful and inspired original fan Creations we always learning from real-world.

You some feedback and we'll keep refining our policies as we go and especially dresses what comes out not being copyright for doesn't mention what went in as you were talking about there a doctor about Katy balls.

I wondered what I was actually horrified this morning.

When did it capture morning mediashare zoom call and then give the fight it all but have you live by yourself? I haven't but some of my colleagues WhatsApp pictures and I'll provide ok so the transit hit The Spectator well, if it's hit The Spectator then come on time to leave The Spectator and go to America no joking.

Thank you so much Dr Hayley from Brunel University becoming on the programme that really.

Now we can talk about landmark legal case in the US which could see Messi being forced to sell Instagram and WhatsApp the federal trade commission the US competition watched alleges that m operate a social media Monopoly Mark Zuckerberg to The Witness stand yesterday and I'm delighted to say that we've got someone here can tell us more Amit katwala features editor at why hello I'm just explain how this came about so basically back in 2012 Facebook spotted this upstart photo sharing app that was getting a lot of traction and decided to buy it by WhatsApp what does a very popular messaging app present for you know and the ftc has been looking at for a long time and couple years ago decided that this was this Facebook Monopoly and social networking space and now is suing Facebook and if the actors who wins that case that Facebook may have to divest Instagram outlander WhatsApp and like I said.

Yesterday, what did we learn from that? What is matters position all this arguing that dominates the narrowly defined space of kind of social networking as defined by connecting with your friends and family basements argument is that it's actually a competitor in the space.

So it is competing with YouTube tiktok maybe Netflix uno's competing for your attention rather than just for your connection with your friends and family start with an argument yesterday.

He was going to saying that you know tiktoks are making pasta and you were saying that Facebook and taken in traffic and take that came along basically trying to argue that you know we do have compassion not the only player in the space.

Is it because of wider context around this? I know a US judge found that Google holds a monopoly in online search that summer.

I don't think that has played out as yet, but are we looking anywhere the breaking up of big tech USA has been found that can't see what I'm just going to wait and see what the remedy is and rumours.

Parcelforce to die best crime which is very popular browser on your spinout Android widgets mobile operating system, I think you know we maybe wear on that course under the Bible administration, but we've seen seen champions power is the FTSE being realigned if you put it in that way, so you know there's much more kind of the public until to the SECC at the moment.

So you know the B that I may not lonely there a teacher so hanging out of the oven operation might have been good news about $1000000 that like a bird put towards the universe and party will I suspect you are ok? And you are staying with us because we gonna do the next and I'll text Bro series and we're looking at the entrepreneur investor and Reddit co-founder Alexis ohanian, while he no longer works for ready in the news recently for his acquisition of arrival platform called dig and he's joined a bid for tiktok us led by the billionaire investor Frank McCourt let's just here why I do think there's an opportunity to take up.

Is being is tiktok and bringing on chain and reimagine what it looks like to bring all those users into a world where I get from those experienced them for it.

Don't need anything that while it's a blockchain tech details in an important users user experience of actually owning your identity in your profile in the service reputation you build them being able to transport at powerful.

I met before we get into his backstory.

It's just were asking you tiktok is being sold supposedly in the US explain what his vision is for tiktok.

Yeah, so he said he wants to go as with all the other guys can bring it on.

I'm sure they make it American but you also want to take it on chain which features idea of like data portability users control over what they do with their own data are rather than tiktok making money off you by selling your data to advertisers.

You know you can get a slice of that pie and if you decide that you're not happy on tiktok.

You can take that date.

Information important on the platform, so that's kind of what they're talking about giving uses more investment by the financial advisors in their own data is going to win the better.

We have no idea.

I don't think it's going to be ok.

Let's talk about his career platform.

What's the weather similar vision? It's read it just explain what that was how evolutionary it was at the time is a social network that is around sharing links and shanks the content and eases can upvote and downvote her and it became very popular sort of the front page of the internet.

So if you could type into a little common you find links to interesting stuff and sub Communities within that we could if you didn't football or gardening playing the guitar whatever you can subscribe to Communities that were like-minded people together and chat it launched in 2005 and it really cannot grow in popularity over the years.

Slightly more considered as alternatives to the social networks more and ideas and conversations, then you know Shane photo is all you know making plans of friends or whatever I'm and 2060 sold it to you on dentist and he kind of step back a bit and then came back on board for years later.

Cos if things have taken a bit of a turn and you can stay on for about 2020 and get back to why he stepped back from it.

How what what controversies has it welded over that time? I mean there's been many many controversies over the years around.

You know the sharing of pornographic content around united showing of black racist content and then they said no because it's about 18 to pay.

I don't know that I can say that at 4:45, but that seems to be what road is known for my hangout with anyway.

I can't speak to that but we?

You're very kind of user LED approach and moderation of did in the past so we know where is platforms like Facebook Instagram and you know at the moment at least now quite heavily moderated by internal moderation teams Reddit volunteering volunteering Power which is good and somewhere because it gives the Communities going to freedom to do what they want, but it's also bad because it gives you the freedom to do what they want to step back from it initially in 2010 when they saw that I think he was a millionaire.

Just wanted to spend some time and then in 2020 the George Floyd protests looked at the board of red and was kind of wanted to be more diverse Kirsty on the board of meditating step back in on the proviso that you replace the reply like a black board members that way stuck in 2011 and what do we know then about his worldview? I think it advocates for the open internet throwback.

Context billionaires rabbit friendly shall we say he's not the sort of like you know world you know like going to take down the side of musk does us mould he's been in a bit strong advocate of pain relief for Dad to finish strong advocates.

You know he's going to biggest betting on sports.

He's been at the open internet and Chelsea what is this idea but the content that you can in fact be delivered to you at the famous people regardless of who it comes from Disney can you know pay actress the ISPs have delivered you know Disney plastic wicker at the church for another platform, so I don't have that as well and he's also Resurrection my social media platforms as I said at the top called Dick with a form of business rival, what is that and how's it using AI soda the same as read it was the same as before and they were bridles for 4 years and then we know it's the new version around 20:10 went down disastrously badly with users and a lot of the did you just kind of fled to read it and that's one that's great.

Actually kill the original illustration of dxa and taking over it's really interesting and what they're using what they want to realise they're going to use AI to make it a more pleasant experience for users so I guess not any algorithmically show people content and it might be interested in but also to moderate and make sure the conversation Anastasia's pregnancy in the constructivist ok, what's the capital of features required? Thank you very much for coming on the programme live from London it's Saturday night that might be the only time.

I've ever going to go to say that but it's bringing the US comedy show Saturday Night Live to the UK next year.

Will they still with tradition and open the show in that way will the legendary US institution even translate for a UK audience American show 50 this year famed for it's horrible sketches and celebrity hosts it launched the careers of the likes of Eddie Murphy Tina Fey and Will Ferrell let's hear a clip from A Sketch about President

Vice president JD fancies meeting with selenski president lansky in February and one night with your wife Mr President with all due respect because that's how we playing this now now you can say thank you handsome.

Ok will Caroline Frost journalist and columnist Radio Times like you're not in the studio, so I can't see whether you were laughing at that but anyway we do find SNL funny America does the sum of America but what do we know about this deal bringing the British

Well, we know that it is coming from sky so which is a part of comcast so there is some deep pockets which is good news for recruiting Talent both in front of and behind the camera is due to air on Sky Max and also now platform from 2026 and is promising to be an all British offering so that means British writers stars British comedians on the app championing British musical stars, but hopefully also as well really sort of embracing diversity and it's so far all we know is that it will probably have a similar format to that which is work so well for Saturday Night Live for half a century now, so we'll get the weekly guest host the sketches the topical stuff the satire and a lot of time and we do know as well, but the exact producer at the Tiller is Lorne Michaels himself.

Who is credited with being the co-founder of the show and is still running the show very much in?

Guys in the States legendary about the program, but I mean he really is legendary the creator of Saturday Night Live he knows everybody there is to know in the whole of what I said, but what I'm doing any other names attached to this project names in the mix include James longman.

Who is credited with doing so much good for James Corden and the Late Late Show in the US he's also had his name attached to British shows like Cox so another pedigree person and a Suzi Aplin who people might recognise from the credits of show they just don't forget your toothbrush and all that sort of the same stuff from 2030 years gone by so both big names both very respected in the British comedy getting destroyed in the TV in and of course the rolodex is between the pair of them probably go with some way to matching Lorne Michaels how there we go.

It's sounds what you're saying that we think it's likely to stick close to the American

But it will presumably have to adapt for UK audience and have we had those kind of shows there's SNL type shows here before in the UK as political sketch shows I mean we've had a couple of game attempt to emulate the American will also back in the 80s.

We had Saturday Live which brought us loads of money as well as making stars of the likes of Ben Elton Harry Enfield Stephen Fry Tracey Ullman we've also had Saturday zoo in the 90s.

We have be 11:00, so which Broadhurst Ricky Gervais Sacha Baron Cohen and Jimmy Carr so we know that it is but none of these shows lasted more than 10 minutes relatively speaking and have to say they didn't really get much of a run.

I think there is a certain Sensibility United where I want to eat with separated by a common language, so we have a sort of Sensibility in the States which would have come to associate with Saturday Night Live there.

There's a brashness there's a round of applause when a famous person turns up on stage and they seem to think that we're dark and nasty.

I mean I'm not sure if this is true, but this is a sort of Abroad I would say that in its favour.

We've seen a merging of those two cultures over recent years something like succession you could not accused of being anything other than properly dark of British writer whose in the States simile, we've had all these American writers room sitcoms ever come across this way Jimmy mulville, recently took Have I Got News For You over to the States and that's been recommissioned now for a second series so perhaps because of social media because of all these clips are making their way around the world.

We know that 200 million views pretty much for every single clip that Saturday Night Live broadcast so perhaps.

It's finding that a new global audience where they enjoy a clip.

They'd enjoyed carpool karaoke and if they can land upon something as catchy is that then there laughing?

Come on, what could be that? Just stay with us know thank you, but I want to do you want to bring in comedian is in the studio fantastically Broadbent you're here.

Just what is the feeling in the comedy community at this news.

They might be a lot more work around quite honestly every just wants to be on it and Caroline does described.

It's like the dream job really I'm doing the endocrine system and I think everyone who is trying to get produces long to see them in Action it especially in in the improv world as well, so I do miss impulse that is an improviser there really hasn't been that thing to aspire to like that has been in the US to win the USA that produces go to all the improve schools the groundlings and the UCB in they find out all that Talent so Amy Poehler they win prizes Tina Fey was an improviser Seth Meyers an improviser and I think we really have impressive and waiting for the UK version of it for such a long time always.

Too good to be true.

So just excitement.

I think I should sketches radio does Radio 4 certainly radio does political sketch on Dead ringers Barenaked week, but this is this is different.

This is this is what you get everything that you get that.

Yeah, you get my sketchers, but you get the stand up as well and I have 200 million views with a clip for a while, but also people go on to make your own films Don't They Will Ferrell that's not happening behind the scenes to get if you get the team right and you have all these creative people in the room together then so much bridesmaids Kristen we're getting was working on bridesmaids and somebody else behind the scenes and I don't not really like there's something for everybody to love you get Musical Comedy in it as well as you don't know but this woman is doing here.

Is known for its right as well? I think you've worked before tamarind in a US style writersroom as part of the improved boom Chicago do you think that kind of writing culture woodwork produces better comedy absolutely it was a theatre by card.

That's actually the one that Seth Meyers worked out before he went to s&l and the way we did it is people pick sketches, and then everyone kind of jumps in and then we came up in front of a live audience obviously getting in front of a live television audiences slightly different in the theatre audience but it works really well for us and you know you get some great ideas that way with multiple lines on a project.

I think England has historically was not really done it for example dial sitcoms are sitcoms only 6 episodes.

There's a 24 so they need writers rooms really in those situations as lot more opportunities for them, but I think it's it's just nice to hear that there will be that kind of a writer's room here in the UK and yeah, I loved it.

I really loved it people and great ideas to your staff.

I don't think there's any negatives and having more minds on a project if you think it's cut-throat.

Well.

I mean that what can it will depend on the team won't it depends on who's running it and then he always about the tkt balls your regular on Comedy panel shows like Have I Got News For You do you think political satire TV political in the UK that shows are the most popular format for that by far the most terrifying show after the meteor shower and find exactly is appointment for you.

I think in the UK where you know it sounds that spot there Friday night tradition.

I think the this could be a really interesting project but I think one of them if it's a new medium Media landscape.

That's a bit fractured.

How do you launch set as appointment for viewing and makers in everyone's tuning into which in America's in Escape

Brittany tune in to see what they're saying and then of course does the do the things happen he tailend themselves to and I think they tend to but also bet balance between them.

I think we have a tennis coach to say and shows less funny now.

You don't have fun.

Is it used to be but it's finding a human and kind of all the different political parties and all the politicians across Racing Stripes and Caroline Proust we got 30 seconds left.

Just tell me do you think it will translate can SNL work here? I think it will never have a better chance than this.

I think that the Goodwill that you've had both in the room.

Just where you're sitting and across the industry of everyone.

I've spoken to if it can catch a wind if it can find its own carpool karaoke if you can find a new star and we can devise in some of the old then I think we're laughing and Katy balls.

Will you be watching us another minute you go to America new already watch at the American version already but even more yet to hear it.

Is so much you all to all my guests especially to you Katie you been here in the Studio with me throughout and wishing you we all wish you bon voyage that you had off to Washington or should it be happy travels? I'm not very happy travels.

Ok great next week.

I'll be talking to the TV producer tomorrow Gilda about her new reality show genius game hosted by David Tennant for now.

Thank you all for your company goodbye and from The History podcast and BBC Radio 4.

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