Read this: Reporting from the Hajj at Mecca, Katherine Maher from National Public Radio in America takes on President Trump's fundi

Play music Radio podcasts by Ros Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in a moment will be talking to head of national Public Radio in the US about why she taking on president over cuts to their funding will find out how the global Media is covering the Hajj in Saudi Arabia and we'll explore way.

I may leave the work of voice-over.

Now as you have noticed Katie's off this week, so it's just me with you for the next 45 minutes and I'll first guess it's Catherine CEO of national Public Radio in the US can you play Welcome on the media show thank you now.

You're based in the US of course but you're actually in London for the South by southwest conference which is bringing together people from Media film and music from all over the world in before we talked about the message.

You're going to have four people at that event for people who don't know NPR just give us a primer.

What is it alright? So we are the broadcaster for radio in the United States although clearly at this digital moment.

We do a lot more we do video we do podcasts for a popular podcast from you as we have a Newsroom primarily what my name for also known for music such as our Tiny Desk program for music discovery, so we're very large.

We serve tens of millions of people in the United States across all 50 states and 10.

And could you clear up one thing because you're often perceived as a broadcaster to but is it better to say you're not a broadcasting the traditional definition of the word that we do it differently other public Media organisations around the world.

We produced a news and programming but our local members a stations in about 250 of them.

They acquire or programming and local community is so we do not hurt broadcast but we work with the network and broadcasters and I would have took in a little while about your relationship with those stations which broadcast your programming start with one of the reasons you're in town this South by southwest conference you're taking part in a session tomorrow when I see the title is bias and balance reporting in a divided age.

I wonder what your messages be for the audience to serve a wide audience.

I think that you're probably a line with this in terms of being a

Broadcast Yourself but what are the things that we see the smaller commercial broadcasters or larger commercial broadcasters, they do tend to specify their audiences around Emma graphics political beliefs especially as a public broadcaster.

We have a mission in manly as a recipient of taxpayer Dollars to serve all points of you and to be able to prevent the present rather the fairest is possible, so that's what I'm here to speak about that my periods in the commercial space also endeavour to do this but we do have a set of special aspect with regards to our specific mission.

I hear your ambition of covering all perspectives and making sure you're content reaches all Americans but there is a perception you'll be aware of that NPR reaches is much more likely to reach affluent Americans and liberal Americans than it.

Maybe to reach people who don't describe themselves in those terms is that is that unfair unfair although I recognise.

There's also work that we need to do so looking at the people who come to our website and listen to a podcast and we have the best day to go because that is the digital those other digital platforms that audiences they really reflect the distribution of the American public from all 50 states.

They also reflect the distribution of the American public in terms of their political beliefs the country is roughly broken up 1/3 people who been left other people who live in other people who identify as centrist and that is the demographic of people who listen to us, so we recognise that reception they do believe we have a lot more to do to reach people who are perhaps not as absolute people who don't live in major cities and people who perhaps have not finished a college education, but nonetheless we do have a pretty wide diversity of listeners who come to us for music news all of the things that we offer in terms of programming will be productive just a focus on the political aspect.

What is that we report on and of course you know better than anyone that not everyone within the trump administration including the president himself agrees with what you just said the president believe that NPR liberal bias is called for its federal funding and the federal funding of PBS to be withdrawn and the Order connecting to that says neither entity presents affair accurate or unbiased Patrol current events to tax paying citizens to corporation for public broadcasting which is the body that distributes this federal money.

He said shall cancel existing direct funding to the maximum extent allowed by law and kind provide future funding was your reaction when you heard that well of course we were anticipating that the president might take such an action.

We were on the list disappointed that is counter to the spirit of the public broadcasting app which is the legislation under which we were created that acts back more than 50 years ago was intended to cry.

A Separation between government and public broadcasting in order to be able to maintain our independence and the president's statements around his perspectives on our editorial production really via the principles of a free press and free First Amendment rights in the United States so we have recently entered into litigation around this on the premise that this is a violation of the first of many viewpoints discrimination and a number of other characteristics while you're doing that the president is now this week moved to formalise this cut says it could become law within 45 days, so will your legal challenge be considered within that timeframe well, that's a good question and we are moving quickly we have requested that we seek the expedited relief which is many organisations who have recently filed Sarah and join against the administration have also sought to do it is a course of the Congress where they take up this food.

We do anticipate that they will.

45 days however, I come back to this point that I made around viewpoint discrimination.

We have a robust set of president in judiciary in the United States has the government is not in the business of determining what is biased or unbiased in the Press And so we do feel as though from that standpoint.

This is really about defending those first principles from which all of those patients are running slow.

What will see how the legal process plays out, but as you say there may be people who would argue.

It's not for the government to decide what is biased or what isn't bias, but they might be some people.

It's also not for the government to directly fun the journalistic organisation like NPR so regardless of Mr Trump's claims of Liberal bias.

Why don't you just turned the funding down anyway, but that's the right thing for a journalistic organisation to do I mean this is a matter of white misconception everywhere we go and it's something I've encountered since joining NPR all the public.

Receives about 100 million in funding every year, so that is to support the entirety of the system across the United States and Dad 100000000 goes to local stations in a country is marriage is the United States with people spread across very rural and remote areas as well as the challenging to par graffiti of the United States mountainous large plain inaccessible areas federal funding primarily support the ability for us to have universal and universal access in broadcasting, so if you want to be able to reach people and we're all there are the bush in Alaska that is what federal funding enables which is a really good service to the country understand this NPR with its headquarters in Washington doesn't receive any of this federal it all goes out the smallest stations we receive about 1% of our budget or 3 million to Ripley from federal funding and we apply via competitive grades to receive that the rest of those ones do you go?

Decisions and they use some of those funds to be able to pay our membership dues, but they also used vans that come from private sources for everyone federal dollar Public Radio receives it raises in a $7 from private sources, but you've already alluded to the fact that this funding creates misconceptions you just you just said so so giving it to relatively or a very small part of your budget wouldn't it? Save you a headache saying happy.

We're not going to take that there's several $1000000 directly because I'm having to answer questions like the ones you're answering on the media show right now wouldn't it? Just be easier to say we won't take the money but I do believe in a public broadcasting.

It is part of what sizes to that mission to serve as wide an audience as possible, but really I am talking about when I talk about the importance of the findings is for the stations importance of universal service emergency broadcasting the ability to support local newsrooms one fifth of Americans live without access to local news which is really highly.

Layton with a increase in Civic participation stronger democratic principles and confidence in government, so that is also Media service and part of why and NPR we are on behalf of that federal funding for stations know you are a relatively new arrival at NPR clearly one of the things on your list of things to do would have been to manage npr's funding that's the responsibility of the CEO of the organisation.

I just wondered what else was on your list coming in you must have had a lift was on it.

Oh my goodness so much that I was looking forward to doing and still am looking forward to doing so of course we're asking yourself.

Where does generative AI in AI in general fit into the future of news broadcasting as a broadcaster that grew out of radio.

What are we doing in terms of video and our accessibility to the audience.

You're not turning on the radio in the same way that they used to I was really excited about or opportunity to reach out to those younger audiences and think about how we might create program.

Play appeals there so the number of different things that we are looking forward to doing that perhaps.

We haven't had the time to do you know the backbone in the United States is really this logo promise Sadia then national programming support local programming in local programming as part of why people appreciate national programming to do that sort of Strategic integration will take more time than we've had focused on this conversation around that alright to get a lot of things on on your list.

There are some of them for example.

How do you use rooms use a eyes one that we turn to a lot on the media show another talk about a lot on the program is the Cultural journalism with in big organisations and last week on the program.

We heard from him joke on the editor of The New York Times and he told us the craft of journalism, then you can't take for granted when you're hiring people because increasingly we have to do that training and the building of the values that we can see the Central to our journalistic mission ourselves rather than assuming that they

Somewhere else and I wondered what your ambitions were for the journalistic culture of empire and frankly whether it needed changing.

I think that is a fantastic one of the conversations that many publishers in the United States have been having there is a tension and a perception among journalists particularly younger Generations around what does neutrality object even look like in this day and age when many of us come from points of View and lived experiences that inform our reporting and how do we account for that well also speaking to be fair and objective in all of the work that we do.

I agree with Connor the primary thing is really thinking about how to retrain on or ethics and integrity as journalists or processes are standards and practises and as a that isn't that we've been able to invest heavily in my tenure in that work and so we've hired additional editors and centres in practice editors that means the people who gives guidance on how we approach stories difficult conversations.

Topics that may have my tea in the way that they are presented.

Do you think you were coming into a Newsroom which was and it wouldn't be the only Newsroom to be accused of this was being timid or nervous around certain subjects the I wouldn't accuse us of being timid or nervous about coverage for example of the administration.

I think that is a thing we put all lot recently is that American news rooms to have had some constraints perhaps on how they proved that perhaps given their corporate ownership has not been an experience for us my dear.

Is that we cover all the way to the officials fairly and did so before the trump administration for the Biden administration.

What about cultural and social issues to you.

Look clothes be aware of the NPR journalist baleno.

Who quit and who accused of having a lack of diversity of thought do you think there was any merit to his critique? I think it is really important for us to help.

Terms of perspectives and viewpoints in journalism writ large, it is I've seen the statistic that 3% of the United States identified as conservative recognise that most realistic identify politically at all.

This is one of the reasons that my view is that that local network of stations and nuisance is so critically important Public Radio into journalism is a horse because we really see it as a figure system for training up young journalist ensuring that they have high adherence to the integrity were looking for but it really brings to ask people from across the us to have very different perspectives and what you might anticipate coming out of DC or New York and say that's due to the American public and Katherine just a couple of other questions you mentioned people's lived experience and when they come into the newsroom when you took over the job very quickly people highlighted some of the things that you had said about Donald Trump previously one.

Referred to as a fascist in a deranged racist sociopath.

Do you regret that or do you think the news organisations need to make their peace with the fact that if they hire people from outside of their organisations.

They're gonna add opinions when looking at the work that we do.

My view is that my responsibility here as it has been in every role is to be able to fully submission and I measure the success of our work by how well we do that in the perspective that are reflected both in our programming and in our audiences and so that is the first and highest goal for me.

I do think it is a complicated.

We are moving into an era in which every single person who is coming into the workforce has some sort of digital background.

I view this as an adaptation in which we are all going to have to negotiate on a case-by-case basis as employer is how we handle those background without necessarily being just qualifying as we train people in their professional responsibility.

Well, we really appreciate you making time for us.

I got one last question because most people listening will know the Tiny Desk NPR how do we get tickets? How do we get in the room for these things are there are no tickets ok? Don't do that but if you're in and DC feel free to drop us a line and about 3 days a week always have to watch the weather from Catherine Mott CEO of mpr.

And if he can't get into Washington you can find them on YouTube and that's absolutely brilliant.

Thanks for making time for us today.

We appreciate it.

That's Catherine CEO of national Public Radio this is the sound from one of the live streams from Mecca in Saudi Arabia this is from earlier today and as I'm sure many of you know around 2 million Muslims from all over the world.

For the hedge, it's one of five core duties or Pillars of Islam which all able-bodied Muslims are expected to complete at 1 at least once in their lives then also a huge media event the official Saudi Press Agency says around 5000 John listen.

Text are from more than 150 Media outlets are accredited to cover the event let's more about how this works for those involved in the media coverage.

We joined by Chaka Khan is a political correspondent with ITV News you're welcome to the media show you were the hedge 2 years ago in 2023 as you took part in the Pilgrimage just took us through the experience of doing that and the practicalities of doing that to yeah, so as you mentioned my day job has me as a political correspondent for ITV News which is obviously very different to being out on the hard.

I'm usually trapped in Westminster chasing politicians down.

This was a very new experience for me in terms of covering a more personal aspect of my life what we did was we went out and I performed the hajj and why like that we did 2 things we both contributed live reports and livehitz to the ITV news for the bulletins at 6:30 and at 22 and then we also made a long-form documentary which then went out at the end of my journey, which we then came back into the very quick fast turnaround edit two very different types of gender's and reporting while we're out there and a very different experience the one that I was used to do with on the day reporting of what's going on here in Westminster this unique experience of 2 million or so people travelling from all over the world to go through personal experience and apart from making the case for your boss's that this was a story worth covering a programme worth making I assume you had to get a range of different permissions.

The authorities to do this is absolutely this happens every single year so as you know when you are trying to have discussions with editors about stories that you think of relevant.

We are always looking for something that makes it new so trying to pick something which is actually an annual event is more difficult than you would think because when the question comes back at you.

What's new this happens every single year is this was a very unique time because they're just been the pandemic while the world was in lockdown the hard to continue because it has gone on continuously for hundreds of years during the pandemic had a very restricted period where there is only a few hundred a few thousand people.

I don't know the exact figures on the top of my head this time round when I went to couple of years ago.

It was the first time then back to full capacity since the pandemic.

So that gave us is unique angle in a reason to actually go out there and it made it very newsworthy and different to what we've seen before also in that time.

We had a couple of.

The pandemic officer just dropping things on the side use that time to update a lot of technology and make things very differently when they have a look at what those new technologies would actually look like and how they work in terms of the practicalities of actually getting out.

There is as they are often used with any sort of big m and a long credit ation process.

We started it quite early on it is rare for British journalist because of what I said because there's not really a new angle every year so we were dealing with the embassy and going through this process in a way that a lot of jealous and you can have them done before but it was fairly Swift and once we are out there the challenge was telling this huge story with 2 million people going through this in a way that no one can actually seen before because we were filming on the ground as we were doing it and when you were filled with a restrictions on who you can talk to and where you could go.

Yes, I'm no there's there were no restrictions because they were put on us by anyone to we had free reign to do anything.

There are physical logistical restrictions because there's 2 million people and it's quite hard to move around and the Saudi security teams who based their do a lot of crowd management so we went and had a look at some of the technologies.

They use that have cameras.

They have drones.

They would have experts and crowd management who uses cameras to determine which road should be closed and when to try and keep safe to stop there being overcrowding that is actually when you're filming a documentary filming a new school quite tough because you'll be in position a you will see position by 100m down the road where you want to film but all the roads are shut and it's quite difficult isn't that is what I was mentioning that for example this year expecting 5010 listen text off to attend will must be Muslim to get permission to attend to do the hajj and to be in the area.

You have to be a Muslim would you get for us as a bit of a challenge because I wasn't going over on my own we had.

Stay with us.

We had a camera crew that produces we have translator so then we'd and had to find British Muslims and Muslims who had worked for us in different parts of the world to all come together because to do the hard you do have to be a muscle that was a bit of a challenge but again ITV news and so the BBC of course we are jealous all over the world and we have colleagues and fantastic places all over it wasn't too difficult to find people who are willing and able to do what is supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime experience and one final question when you would completed your reporting not the live reporting but when you were collecting material did anyone need it before you send it back to London to be used no not at all.

So very good.

I just thought of giving a free rein and let us do whatever you want and no one check the material afterwards watch the footage.

No one watch the reports now on watch The Documentary until they went out on her and we wouldn't have accepted any otherwise in the discussions.

We had before they didn't even ask cos I think they would have been very aware.

Backstedt if that was even suggested.

We would have said no and because of that we went out and gave the most honest and truthful report that we could possibly do and we try to hide all the things that we saw and I went through my own personal experiences and if you do watch it you get to watch me shave my head for the only time in my life, which was quite a brutal experience on camera and we're honest about it and you was quite nervous about that.

I was honest about the fact that we've been waiting in a traffic jam for three-and-a-half hours and we have moved because 2 million people will try to move from point a to point B so we were no one watched any of the footage until I went out on ITV thank you very much indeed for tell us about your experience from a couple of years ago.

We appreciate you making time for us to have can't who's little corresponded with ITV News here's a question for you.

Not sure how many of you will answer yes to it, but if you've been on ScotRail ScotRail train recently.

I wonder if you've noticed a new.

Voice making onboard announcements on some of their lines there isn't we're making this worthy of note on the media.

Show is it's an AI generated Voice that's been named Iona and it's worthy of note to the voice-over artist gain Potter who believes that Iona was trained using her voice buy a Swedish tech firm called read speaker and why may not recognise gains name you may well know her voice you can do it when you B&Q it real good feel-good 101 FM game Potter go to speak to you.

Thanks for coming on.

Hi you're welcome.

I heard you there on a B&Q advert of voice of God as it's called on ITN will explain what voice of God means in a few minutes time as well.

It's on Heart Radio Scotland

Albert before we talk about that.

We must talk about Iona these announcements on ScotRail when did you hear about them and the fact? They may have been trained on your voice to my attention two weeks ago by a producer if you had seen a BBC article dropping the news that Scott real.

Had this new air90 sir and immediately he recognise my voice and said this is you and sent the article to me and the moment.

I saw the Avatar in the article.

I knew that this was a rear speaker that I have been for 2 years and how did that make you feel really distressed and extremely angry I was I couldn't believe it given that I've been into sleep for 2 years with this company to to have it in this country and to have it not only in the UK but in Scotland and on my doorstep and also they were singing the article unlike the

Voice-over artist Iona was not the real person and she very much is and the number of your disagreement with speaker is the you don't feel that you gave you did work.

You just don't feel you gave permission for them to use your voice in this capacity absolutely I did work with speaker for years ago.

You know AIS is today and text to speech it's called TTS which was really knew back then on an accessibility tool for visual impairment or corporate reading where would you be able to copy or words into the week? Speak of sight in a language perhaps wasn't their own and choose the language and the sex of the person that they wanted to be back to them and have the copy read out loud Sunday to Sunday not as a commercial well as you allowed to you are in dispute with them.

We are screwed speaker for a statement.

It says you were informed of research.

Intended use of the recordings for the purposes outlined in the contract including commercial use of the synthetic voice it goes on to say we value and pay for our voice content.

This is why voice actors choose to work with us in a space where increasingly see unethical practises using AI to unlawfully or duplicity steel or exploit creative Talents read speaker does not do this and doesn't condone this and I should say ScotRail told the news it has no plans to remove Iona I suppose more broadly beyond the specifics of this case this does highlight gain A broader Challenge for voice-over artists as I becomes more Central to so many aspects of the media and I just want to go back to the point to to see that I requested in in my contract with that any commercial use therefore there is a serious at the collision theory that I read regarding the eye.

That would be foolish.

They are ethical companies out there who will work with voice overs and you were properly remunerated.

You're aware of you has your voice and you're allowed to withdraw send so let's get into the details of what your your concerns are around contracts with the help of someone who knows the voice of industry very well, Paul w.

Fleming as General Secretary experience with me here in the media show studio Paul you been listening to a guy and describe her situation more broadly is there an issue hear that people within the media tickly voice-over artists in this case sign contracts before a I was essential as it is and those contracts about apps not built for the ah that's perhaps true, but just because the contracts doesn't say you can't do something doesn't mean that you can the lots of them is the most important thing is to be on a trade union negotiated collective agreement and for people in TV and film in particular the clearpay.

Outline for excessive usage in a I even though the contracts may not been visited it voice-over artists are particularly vulnerable because that's not very well unionised space however reasonable and internet use clear consent and the attempts again clearly made to make sure that she could withdraw consent all you have some dialogue about how a voice was used those are very sensible precautions make it any point within the voice of industry compared with so 5 years ago.

I mean I think 5 years ago.

It doesn't really exist and and now it's incredibly common that we don't know how I spread it is in part because sometimes very very convincing and indeed.

How much is involved in taking a voice with very clear recording with high-quality professional sounders, Diane's is it is quite what is a iron whatnot so what legal protections can be offered the voice-over artist who are concerned that their voices may be used in ways they they didn't think they agreed to will be on going back to the

Contract which is part of what we can do the gdpr considerations here as well, but the Union fundamentally believes are part of workers protection of their work, so somebody's like somebody's voice somebody's movement are in fact their data and you can't sign away your data protection rights in the same way as you can do other work.

That is a really important way that we can hold this big chef of animals work two accounts and that is what we doing with some of these companies at the moment where of course big tech in its many forms would deny that it's stealing that is involved in mass than others would I give you the somewhere along the lines there has to be a balance between looking after the content creators in the many different forms and also embracing the possibilities of AI and you rather than for me.

It's def need to find some more flexibility for example to Nick Clegg from president of global affairs matter is argue that asking permission for all copyright holders would quite Kildare GAA

Stream this country well.

I think that Nick Clegg's quote point out the fact that they are breaking the law because that is what the Lord says at the moment that can send has to be requested was constantly admitted by big tech is that they don't have sent at the moment which the government in fact putting a bill through Parliament they would attempt to remove that so if they're not if they are currently creating AI they creating on concentrate exists.

They're not asking for consent.

They are breaking the law know what we're not saying is that I should stop but there has to be a better system than this and I should say it's a Nick Clegg would definitely dispute the fact that is quite was an acknowledgement that matter was Breaking the Law show me bring you back in here because I mentioned as always introducing you this idea of the voice of God it's a phrase that anyone who works in voice overs.

No, it's very well, but lots of people listening on Radio 4 quite reasonably won't what does it mean to be to God the voice of God is a term in the voice-over industry for the voice that comes from Nowhere from the sky you know for award ceremonies or to announce something so for example my

The voice of God for Etienne is in introductory voice you played to introduce the broadcast it could be for the baftas.

It could be for an impersonal.

It's just a term of speech does one of the many different jobs that you do.

I'm sure you'll get lots of very interesting commissions.

What's the hardest type of voice-over probably is when you do gaming because that's really exhausting perhaps you know for example if you're playing a character in a game and you have to give every permutation falling out of a Window did you run did you push where you being chased? Did you choose to jump out those vocal expressions are different if you land on Stones or how high are you training session? You know I would suggest most voice overs feel like I'm sure and Furious what's the colour of maximum length that you can do in the studio before you think I might performances.

Deep here if you doing a big big session for a game for example yeah, if you doing something like you know that spoken really demanding or if you do I do a lot of doubling for films and you know one particular form of the same as a zombie movie and I was playing a zombie for 2 days basically like I've done that for 10-minutes let alone two days very good to talk to you again.

Thank you very much indeed.

That's getting Potter and thanks to Paul Fleming is hearing the media show studio to where we began the program by speaking to the CEO national Public Radio and talking about the impact Donald Trump is having on the work that she's doing a good talk about Donald Trump again because as you might know he recently announced.

He may introduce a 25% tax on people who are main number of smartphone makers including apple and this could have a huge impact on both our apple operates and also apples relationship with it's suppliers.

A number of cases reaches all the way to China that we want to understand this a little bit better with someone who has studied this relationship between apple and china as closely is almost anybody the finance reporter Patrick Magee is with us his book apple in China at the capture of the world's greatest company is is out came out earlier this month Patrick welcome to the media show I wonder what your why you decided to write this book.

Why did you decide that this particular relationship between one country and one company was worthy of all this effort is already been reported for fragile x and o's in what's the company that question was what the Achilles heel of the company was actually because I've become really bullish.

You know our generation.

Is there a 50/50 Android vs.

IOS the Next Generation Elyse in America is actually 90% iOS since.

I just began to think I mean generationally as those College kids.

Graduate be buying airpods number stories on that front but I need to ask you a question to you.

I don't want to just be drinking the Kool-Aid I wanted to ask so the vehicle is your question and everything leads to China if you start asking those questions and I really thought we just had it covered at the only real story with covered but apple in China over the last 20-years is the tedium of assembling an iPhone and that's about it and when did this deep investment in China begin has been going on throughout apples existence or can we pinpoint the moment where it escalated remember in 80s you know Apple computers even down to the circuit board with someone that redesigns and Steve Jobs pregnant sister Paddy and putting them together.

She was on the telephone to be both in a back in the late 1970s and head factories in Ireland Singapore and California later Colorado and they really built their own computer.

On time, but the problem was the everybody else in the PC industry really be going to outsource and then began to Offshore and the resources that Apple was the last holdout everyone had a gone bankrupt or gone off so am I late 1996 apple is days away from missing a role they have to abandon their own manufacturing and outsourcing then I tell this sort of 7-year narrative with experimenting with contract manufacturer resonator 900 places.

You don't know that they were building IMAX the Czech Republic Wales California career was the main place and I'm trying to be twins that let's say after 7 years the army's affordable of labour in China they don't really have the competence but they respond to apples demands and I work 12 hours a day and it is cheap and double factory a timescale where in the environmental paperwork and so this Move by Apple to heavily invest in China was something that was actively pursued by the

He's at huge scale and they would have seen a big strategic benefit from it happening after my book is amazing made in 2050 document from China saying stop manufacturing.

There is no country.

There is no nation Ian will to Power and it's based on manufacturing more than anything else.

I don't know another country that thinks manufacturing as the way to be a part of the world and the way that I need us and so by 2003 apple really begins to consolidate everything into China there's no architect to that decision.

I leave Tim Cook the current CEO even though he was the operation sky was the architect was suppliers themselves dozens hundreds of suppliers were all choosing China because of you looked at you know how to create a computer on three different channels is winning out every time and so it just sort of consolidated pretty rapidly than that was presumably working very well for Apple and working very well for the Chinese to what degree.

Apples degree of investment in China left it exposed to a president who comes in and and changes the rules of global trade yeah, so I don't think it's really that incontestable Apple is stuck in China I'm in a really is no place on earth that offers the same combination of cost quality and scale the new ones to my book is that didn't offer that scale to the offer that confidence to apple apple built it there and so this sort of missing 2 pod coffee in the study of apple is a part of God manufacturing design or MD and these are people that would fly from California to literally hundreds of batteries a cross-trainer to hand hold each other supervisors and install millions of dollars worth of machinery into other people's taxes and later billions of dollars in a scenery to teach them how to use it to teach the body skills and and what happens there is trying to become world leading manufacturing as it.

Staggeringly large Investments we were talking 55 billion dollars a year in investments in Chinese factories by 2015 and as I'm listening to Patrick I'm thinking how in very different ways apple is known as being a relatively secretive company and of course China is known as being a secretive country, so was it difficult to get people to talk.

Yeah, I did nothing wrong.

I think about it.

I mean apple is is more secretive US military according to people that are both very difficult to get people to talk.

I did speak with more than 200 people.

I was saying he was actually the calibre of the people and I think that come through the text some of them off record some of them on record, but it is very difficult to get people to talk I suppose what work did my favourite is a 30-year history, so the more that you could inform some source but saying 2005 that you already knew so many details that have never been written about about 2003/2004.

They were then he will tell you.

More help you with the narrative and then I will just keep doing it until the present well.

Your book is called apple in China the capture of the world's greatest company we appreciate you coming on to talk about it.

There's one of the text.

I do want to ask you about before we finish up on the media show today and it concerns a legend of apples Sir Jony Ive who designed the iMac the iPod the iPhone and the iPad he has just joined open a I bought his startup IPO in a over 6 billion dollar deal.

Let's just here a little of the clip of the announcement to deliver and connectors to unimaginable technology the decades-old and so it's just common sense to at least surely.

There's something beyond these Legacy products.

What was your reaction that Patrick just quickly if you would I would love love to be wrong about this, but I'm pretty pessimistic.

Going to be sunscreen with device coming out of the studio and the reason I say is that were addicted to screens not because you know that just compelling I mean they're just that they work so well for everything and so are you going to argue screen and have another sell your connection? What is an expensive device coupled with a monthly prize that seems difficult.

Are you going to displace the iPhone all together? That's a really tall order.

So if they can blow my mind with something new missing a Steve dogs one more thing moment and I would love to see that but I just don't have the imagination four what this is going to do that you couldn't just do on your eyes on well.

We'll have to see how it comes along set a 10 for Apple and a at the moment you think it's responding well.

Maybe for ok.

That's a low score.

Thank you very much indeed gone very low I mean Siri to turn Adela is as dumb as a rock and is there robins in China or by profound because they're not allowed to use something like that.

You can't eat.

So they have to use baidu Alibaba so some shop words from you mate.

That's Patrick Magee

From the ft.

His book is apple in China the capture of the world's greatest company and we should say that Apple says the claims and the book are untrue filled with inaccuracies and that the author did no fact check in with us to publication.

That is the end of today's Media show is Katie and I often say at the end of the program.

If you have you want to listen back to any of the auditions in recent years.

They are all on BBC sounds if you just go to the front page of the website or the app and search for the media show you will find this edition in about half an hour or so and all of the previous Editions with me and Katie the two of us will be next week.

Thank you very much indeed for listening by Annabel deas and from BBC Radio 4.

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