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This is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week the original content creators on YouTube assesses the media landscape.

I've been talking to Jenny from The Young Turks lintendo is launching its new switch to games console today will get on it.

You of what's being promised with us through this hour is Oli dugmore editor of Joe hello Ollie just give lessons in case they don't know what is Joe we're Social A publisher we create content about politics News sport primarily aimed at younger and younger B do you think Brits do you think be thinking that switched? It was a big deal.

I guess so new console somebody functionality typically.

I think most of our most of our audience her sort of more Playstation Xbox or PC games as well with a new new console new games want to call your fans tuning and listening right now both boxes for the hour and we're going to start this edition of the media show with Adolescents it's the drama that continues to break records and Spark conversations, if you've not seen it and I suspect quite a few of you have done this isn't dramas on Netflix it tells the story of a 13-year old boy accused of murdering a girl.

Is class on Monday Keir starmer hosted around table and Downing Street with the makers of the show and children's charities to discuss boys been influenced by misogyny they encounter online that's not a problem issues people don't know how to respond to patient in this sense of young people being on their own bedroom ever happened to me.

Why won't Netflix has also announced that this trauma will be made free to show in secondary schools and all of these developments are raising questions about what media content.

Age is a consuming and where the consuming it and we're going to get some help in understanding this first of all with Claire Holly boss key from Enders analysis is here with me and Katie and the media studio play Welcome to the program from your research in the broadest sense, what is the media diet of UK teenagers? Thanks.

We typically see with teenagers that their spending quite a long time online as he probably aren't surprised to hear but what might be more shocking is that over half of that is on YouTube alone, so they spending over an hour and a half a day on average every day online videos to tiktok YouTube and so on but mostly onto the longer form information driven algorithmically driven content that can be hard to get transparency of a what they're watching and so move all of these platforms with require children to be 13 and over is that right the vast majority of them.

Do you require that because there are titre parental control and privacy restrictions on younger age groups.

Are platforms that are open to a younger children as well such as ROBLOX which let students or children from the age of eight up or YouTube kids even though they have slightly different restrictions on the use of the platforms, but they do exist and help us understand how this isn't just about content consumption.

It's also about socialising some of the platforms more so than others both allow teenagers to watch but also to talk to each other at the same time ROBLOX is a particularly interesting example because it allows live voice chat on the platform.

So only to users over the age of 13 but within the expert which are themselves designed by users and so can take any shape or form users can talk to one to one another with much more limited oversight because of the nature of the format and if they're watching in the platforms are using can we see quite different consumption patterns between boys and girls absolutely so we see that girls over index on tiktok Instagram Snapchat

How much more time on YouTube so it's 25% more time on YouTube and girls do boys are suspended twice as much time on reddit then grows do as well and if that's where they are spending their time.

What about subject those two platforms YouTubers Reddit particularly diverse and interesting and detailed as well like the young longer form of YouTube let's people really get into topics where people do formation of all sorts and when you're approaching content from that mindset of receiving information.

It makes you should listen more to the perspectives.

Take more of that information and potentially being more positions let those perspectives back and would any of these platforms note the age of the user and then look at the content.

They were consuming and Flag that as an issue letter example say there's a 14-year old boy watching a range of videos on YouTube would YouTube being a video to alert by the him or his parents to the fact that the content is being consumed isn't suitable so YouTube kids has much more limited uptake.

Because it's less attractive to the kids themselves and also has slightly more restricted content from the age of 13 and up there on adult YouTube The algorithm.

There will know their broad demographic know roughly what other 14-year old boys and enjoy watching and still be more likely to see that kind of content through to them.

This is really useful one last question before we explore this subject further can we see this consumption evolving if I asked you all of these questions 5 years ago or 10 years ago? Would you give me quite different answers? Why wouldn't have mentioned tiktok for one but will we can see that the algorithms are becoming more sophisticated the contents and the content creators are becoming more sophisticated as well and understanding.

What gets traction what people watch what gets more views, so we can see an increasing polarisation on these platforms because the algorithm doesn't understand whether you agree with something.

It doesn't understand whether you're watching it because it makes you angry all that knows is that you're watching it.

So it will see what people are watching what people are spending time on and it will send that to more people so if your content is increasingly polemic if it's more controversial bit more extreme.

It will be watched 4shared more therefore watch for longer and so we see that the polarisation of consent because the balance material in the middle.

Just doesn't get the same traction for the moment.

Thank you very much that we are going to explore it further Dr Marcus Gilroy ware lecturer in creative digital media at SOAS University of London and Oli dugmore, who was the programme with the editor of Joe and in adolescence and eight is explicitly named as a potential influence on the attacker.

He's an influencer self-proclaimed misogynist.

He's also charged with rape another serious offences in Romania he denies those charges.

He says adolescence depiction of him as a radicalizing figure in online male spaces is neither fair nor accurate as you have done a study with George

University College London and that was a study that looked at Andrew Tate output is content what can you tell us about what you found a really interesting mixture actually so much coverage of Andrew Tate and people like him the headline is that he's a misogynist and that is absolutely the case and without sort of taking away from the talking about that what we found was a much more complicated to have combination of different messaging the boys were watching this afternoon making sense of their transition to Adulthood there is a real lack in the other environments there in the home school so forth of information for them about what that means and overcomes aspects of Hell heard, you know that she may have doubts and fears about and so you never example.

They are seeing their parents trouble.

There's obviously politically there's dinner to have lack of up from ability is stagnation of sorts.

In the last few decades, so they seem a parent struggling I thinking how can I not end up like that, so they will leave very kind of exaggerated entrepreneur or a text that they're in there and there's always stuff about me and you gems and muscles and all that kind of stuff in their bodies are also changing and that's totally interwoven with and made kind of inseparable from the the kind of misogynist overtones and quite explicit as well that kind of content is in there of course, but it's not dominant because the conversations I've had lots of times with with the young boys all teenage boys.

Is there same but we're not interested in that better than what we are interested in learning how to make money or how to make a body look Google how we might find attractive or that might be quite so just was a pillory study the next phase will be to talk to the boys themselves a lot more so we were just looking at the media.

They consume on tiktok, but yes there was something about the our findings which was actually a little bit.

I was the way what I'm confusing but it was interesting that only 25% of the videos that we coded had any element of misogyny and sexism in them and a third of the mentioned women golfer 2021 talking about women a girl that was on about fitness tips and you know how to set up a dropshipping which is the sort of kind of e-commerce is other tips and ideas about what being a man is and even the idea of by being a man that has the interestingly kind of multi-coated away about you can contrast with the word man with woman but you cannot the contrast it with boy and a lot of it was actually about that about being a a man rather than being a boy which I think you know George and I found to be quite different from the scholarship on David Weir golden womanhood have a to the Continuum from one to the other a bit more for societal reasons were as boys how much more under pressure to suddenly Gayton and push.

They're unmanly boyhood as quickly as they say 25% of it or there is massaging in the rest isn't and two-thirds isn't about anything to do with that when they then hear the mainstream Media is becoming traditional me just talking about him being a misogynist and talking about that only do you think that creates a wider disconnect then in terms of how they view the likes of people talking adolescence now.

How people write about his content more broadly.

What does a lot to say they're so I'm just also clarify as even if a quarter of the videos only were misogynist we felt that it was all one kind of indivisible picture of the stuff that wasn't about when they go still was very into Worthing with that but yes, I think you know what things about Tate and people who have a product of that kind is that they always play into and lean into a kind of sensitive?

Agreed to sense of victimhood and so when he is criticised heavily in the media or there's a spectacle him being LED away in Cuffs so he's talking about how the matrix is out to get him that stuff will link with the kind of things that parents and teachers will be saying if they're talking about him without necessarily knowing very much about what else he's giving boys then that will in some ways lend credibility in the eyes of those boys that that he may actually be not being understood properly by the the powers that be a spring Folly from Joe into this discussion, how are you approaching the reaction to Adolescents in your coverage on Joe media and the discussions you have with your audience we spoke about it a lot.

We can speak about it time and it's one of those things were a big Media moment happens.

You can look at the post office scandal.

You can look at the mess around to campaign recently around assisted dying.

You found yourself to be active in space for a while and then all of a sudden something happens and if we have to talk about it is brilliant this conversation now, but I started politics job for a military Joe and I spent the last 7 years trying to give young men the tools to understand the world around them and to be able to combat the snake oil salesman, who tell them that the complex problems around them have simple Solutions you go about that because and this comparison is limited, but we put a lot on the middle show about fat checking we're the politician said something that's not true that gets a lot more attention than the fact check that follows from a journalist in your situation.

You're dealing with some young man who are consuming vast amounts of the type of content that Mark describing it must be hard to put out alternative content that addressing that and make it competitive it is because when you're putting on social media.

You're not just

Eating with Andrew UB9 plenty of other male influencers, you know sneako Hamza Ahmed adin Ross the list goes on and on and on your competing with other crew on the internet right.

You know where publishing on my newsfeed that contains everything from the sort of Sol Timor pass a cat videos the internet of old to extremist influences news publishers entertainment brands, we are in competition with is a very very hard task thankfully.

I think we're being successful at doing so and one of the ways that you connect with the readers viewers who you hope will consume the statue makers you conducted a survey of several thousands of readers and viewers around the male role models they have and the types of content that they are consuming around.

What did you learn your right so Mum two-and-a-half thousand response to the audience and primarily the thing that struck me most about the survey results were that 26% of young man have a positive role model in their lives.

That should that make strawberry number right because when I think about young men in general.

I would want as close to 100% of them to say do you not have a positive role model in my family now obviously that number because all sorts of reasons divorce death etc as a baseline 100% of the weather in positive male role model in their lives.

That's something I want already we're not there and then we talk about who was Arnos young.

Young lad lives that answered.

Yes to the survey only 60% So it's in their family is even less in public life even less in sports that concerns me and the second question with us that was do you think positive representations of masculinity in the media and 40% of them said no and I think that's very very telling because if the only way that you see masculinity being disgusted national Media is with the prefix attached to it in the discussion of people like Andrew Tate Conor McGregor Donald Trump others going to go hang on a second.

Actually the maximum you can be a force for good.

I'm not ashamed about who I am is a young man, but the only time I see people talking about this is a negative way and I think that has very serious consequences of which we probably having really fully grown up with you and when you talk to your readers and viewers about these issues and appreciate.

This is probably not question but degree is the media so be representing the society in which exist and to what degree is the the media content of both Claire and Marcus have helped us understand driving the nature of the society in which these young growing up point in question that I think editors journalists Media creators across the country constantly grappling with right because I might look at something like the Daily Mail sidebar of shame and say objectifies women other people disagree.

That's my opinion the editor of that cyber.

Will tell you hundreds of thousands of people click on the story is we put in that sidebar who's responsible for we put there is it the audience interest or

The journalist to create the content, it's all very well.

Good to say take your vegetables take your medicine his his a story about positive masculinity, but at the end of the day date does a negative inference Dimension of driving and using gender and people are interested in them who's responsible for that the news is that are selecting their stories or the audience interest just bring it back to adolescence for a moment because something them program portrays really well as the sense of their being a whole online discourse the parents can't understand.

I think it's probably worth hearing a collectors reminders.

This is where the son of one of investigators helping him understand the meaning of emojis posted on Instagram and they start with the meaning of the red pill.

Red Bulls like I see the truth, it's a call to Action button manosphere which is 100 g in the 8221 listen.

I don't know what you're talking about break it down 80% of women attracted to 20% of men woman.

You must bring them cos you'll never get them in on the way he can a woman on car for his dad.

He's 13.

How can you do that and it said about 10:30 clip smiling at here? But that that clip does something that people talk about the fact that these sorts of platforms seem to exacerbate this division between young people and their parents stop the price in Windows been divisions are there in time to talk to all of that but Mark is is that worrying that division if you like between what young people including those.

In that program you understand exactly what those emojis mean for example and the fact that the parents have no idea as you know that kind of division has always existed up to appoint and so of course it looks worrying now and it is worrying now because it has these are the Overtones it's connecting to the server is using and there are real life homes that you know as they show port raised come from that but in principle intergenerational differences in media use and in conversation and counterculture that in itself doesn't worry me.

I think really there's a broader picture here which is your how we are having conversations with young men about the things that they see in this content even wrongly and actually post.

It shows one day few outside that really does that well, so I'm appreciate it, but I wonder as all three of you have seen this push for example for this drama to be shown in secondary schools weather Holly you thought will hold on a minute.

Maybe this is useful to pay.

Watching the drama, but perhaps a 15-year old boy doesn't need to watch adolescence to know about these issues 100-percent cos I think it's a great place to start a conversation you watching it at home in your living room as a family.

Maybe it away in for you to have a conversation with you young lad your boy does not need to watch Netflix show to find out about in cell culture.

He doesn't need to watch it to find about the man that I need to watch it to find out about 8.

I actually thought the reference to take in the program.

It's quite telling it's the two detectors are talking about what they just discovered after his son has told him that I just heard and goes is not that stuff right.

It's the the description of the nature of taters becoming all-encompassing.

What is actually a very distributed diverse set of information information sources and data within the manosphere and it was revealing that they spoke about it was now the kids were speaking about it right.

He's not on in cell either the way the way that the defects and texted describe him and his son is correct in that specific most in cells are actually.

The not teenagers because the entire community action for 13-14 year old boys trying to join it will say how can you be involuntarily celibate? You are only you are only a boy and actually thought I should have quite a good depicting the fact that adults of very far removed from the conversation and sorry no asthma.

St Clare's you're listening to this does this match your research when you look at what 15 boys and girls may consume and then what their parents may consume however all they are so they're 40 45 presumably as Mark has been describing that fast fast difference in the the two types of absolutely I mean teenagers.

Don't use Facebook anymore.

I mean it's just some of them do clearly but a lot of that is to communicate with with their older relatives and likewise you know the family.

Don't use tiktok and so there's a fundamental disconnect here and Messina on these platforms the formats also very different to the kind of content that takes off the creators that operate on them are also different and so there's a live.

Changes in which you can understand what's happening when you're not seeing the same people you not seen the same types of material and you're not interacting with the same people on top of having an algorithm so be different content because of your very different demographic and life interest it's actually perhaps some of your reader's maybe even some of your colleagues slightly bemused about what's happened in the last couple of weeks.

I won't say them use them in the show the shows got is a brilliant show that I don't want a reminder as a piece of art the 16th and Graham franchises now boiling point at lessons are brilliant brilliant.

I'm not surprised that they taken off with audiences.

I just think it's a little a little bit supply teacher who can't be bothered to engage with the actual material reality that these young boys are living in doesn't want to engage with the politics for example the fact that 70% of schools have less funding in real time according to 2010 and just go or do you know what we got a Netflix show for you to watch about gender based violence? What would you like to see the government? Do you think Innocence people are saying?

Turn on the Adolescent bandwagoner happens, doesn't it? Does it show all that's all get involved? Yeah.

I mean we should actually capitalise on the moment.

We should have to listen to talk about positive representations of masculinity attempts to define what positive is the Lost Boys report to Social Justice that came out a couple of months ago.

Highlighted all kinds of areas whether it's education career prospects health the boys falling behind girls.

There are a number of policy options that can be explored and debated to fix those things they said they come out the States and other researchers to look into this but you should make the most of this moment.

We shouldn't just because you know it's a little bit irritating a grating to have everyone wanting to talk about the issue now that doesn't mean that you shouldn't see that moment to try and do better I suppose I thought there isn't it isn't that? It's a male-dominated drama if you like that the victims a girl and we're talking so much quite rightly about masculinity and toxic masculinity as you're saying.

Are girls and violence against women and girls that people think that that's getting lost some of this discourse, I think it's a very brave artistic choice in the show to focus on the perpetrator of the rides is done at the expense of the victim.

I do want to resist and I want to have a conversation about any rights-based conversation beer ginger beer ethnicity by age.

It is not a zero-sum game and just because we talking about the male perspective on gender based violence.

It doesn't mean the female perspective is a very very important one and it's not that one.

We should look away from or try to engage with equally when we discuss about trying to help the situation with young boys that absolutely should not come at the expense of young women that something that our research also suggests, so it will be taking this forward and doing research and we'll be looking at server gender in childhood and adolescence in general and such a reminder.

Important principle that gender is a relation rather than a category and therefore we need to be kind of studying people ages in with that way, so just looking at boys is helpful but actually much bigger picture that are when you look at how girls and young women are responding to the world they live in and part of the world they live in is the content that the men and boys around them are consuming is there further consequential content the young women and girls are consuming as they try and navigate the world that we describing you think about is the algorithms and neither good nor bad.

They they just exist they serve content based off what you think you will like so it goes back to a social issue.

Really of know the content that people engage where there's more of that it may be more negative because of the discourse around toxic masculinity and they're being very little in a positive masculinity or people willing to talk about that.

I think the girls it's a bit easier because

Part of the movement of feminism is to your support women in be positive about that and so there's much more even distribution of positive content as well as negative content about it out and finally and never play in the middle of all these conversations one of the questions coming up a lot is what should the government do about this? We've seen the prime minister and his colleagues engaged with the issue, but a number of people mark as the saying ok? What we focused on this issue, what now that's probably not just one answer to that but what would you like either government or the the institutions that can possibly influence the do when I think the important thing is that we start asking that we keep asking that question at rather than looking for a simple answers now.

Think one thing is that you know there have been a number of changes to curriculum over the last 4 years of the previous government so far.

I think curriculums do need to to take more seriously that the challenge of talking to children and Adolescents about complex issues than they currently do and so that's I think.

Merryweather could be productive conversation curriculums one thing but finally Ollie even if schools were talking too young to teenagers about this their competition is a stream of Media coming the way of these teenagers through their phones powered by the most powerful algorithms in the world.

It's stiff competition is the competition that doesn't give up.

Hope I think the Education space.

You could look at more male teachers and by consequence of the bingo male teachers more male coaches sports teams there are some very interesting ideas coming out the states around boys possibly starting kindergarten preschool a year earlier than girls excuse me because of the developmental stages involved in and have lowered his clothes are interesting ideas, but yeah, it's the competition and the only thing I would add is the it's not just on schools.

It's on men and women everywhere we have to take accountability we have to set the right one believes in God thank you very much indeed talking to some of those issues relating to the drama at.

That's clarehall a boss key from Enders analysis and Dr Marcus Gilroy ware of SOAS at the University of London that was going to stay with us because we got another item you want to discuss with your he's going to have a look at The Young Turks the news and commentary network based in the US that now has 6 million subscribers on YouTube of your regular show you know that since Donald Trump's last year has been a huge amount of attention on independent Media in the US that skewed to the right such as Joe Rogan and Theo von But The Young Turks switch off and all the way back in 2002 are still got one of the biggest independent outlets of the digital era, and they frequently offer theory critiques of establishment politics corporate media and yes of those on the right of the political spectrum is some of what they do ministration in the signal controversy continues to spin and lie but you know it's not working in at the scandals bad.

Fox News you're calling up the trump team not clear whether Disney was listening to megyn Kelly or maybe they just took all the feedback from Conservatives because it turns out they are now staying at the Hollywood premiere of the live action Snow White film as a result about Republican house speaker mic.

Johnson's advice helping their cock.

Maybe don't do public events that going well for some of them actually are and I think you deserve some credit for that.

They're actually willing to do thank you.

Is it founder at presenter and CEO at the van the present and visit to London recently he came into the studio to talk about running a left wing news site in Trump's America I Began by asking who the audiences general audiences that does not believe in establishment weather is politicians or mainstream Media there generally on the left wide range of ages now when we first started.

1834 but now almost everyone has migrated online so we have the same kind of demographics at television has and so it's people who have realised that the establishment does not serve them and mainstream media and politicians are not telling the truth question because I doing this last election aureus was enormous so frustrated because they don't really believe in Joe Biden and Kamala Harris come out as a little bit better than until was a little bit better than camel Harris but overall they do they take the same donor money they serve the same donors they don't listen to their voters stay pretty much the spies are based.

They can't stand the rain in Walsall democratic leadership Republicans in the nightmare there.

So so you can't go to trump was a fake populist and so we're disaffected.

We're looking so we did support £1 fishing throughout all this is about to relieve Bernie Sanders so so that's an easy way of understanding your audience is we were very supportive of the main media company that covered Bernie Sanders in 2015 as the lead up to the primary was happening as ABC News in America was giving him 7 Seconds of airtime.

We got hands up maybe even hundreds of millions of used for Bernie Sanders and now we found people like rocana was a US congressman, Nina Turner at said they were the chairs are Bernese campaign.

So there are some good guys, but very few of the subjects that are most popular has there been any subject that surprised you in terms of its popularity know you do the same things that you would expect maybe different waiting on a Wii cover Israel a lot more than mainstream Media that goes mainstream.

Media doesn't want to cover Israel and the other one barrister about how their coverage is just a bizmo.

Obviously Coverdale x x

But again super on the left, but we did a petition about a year and a half before the election saying bye and has a Dropout he is in cognitive Decline and if by the way if you care about being trump, why would you run a senior man against them that is political malpractice so we see things that are obvious to everyone except m Media reporters who always shock in Sorrento response when you said that you before I'm a radical.

I'm on acceptable.

I should be cancelled mainstream Media sizes outsiders in America in the only thing that they hate more than the populist right is the populous left because the populist right might be hateful in on social issues right and make sure he doesn't like that one thing I agree with me stream media, but I care a lot more of that is perfectly fine.

They're going to give you for your giant corporations.

Tesco's for executives regulated Industries so you can swallow up more of your competitors.

That's not a bad at all when the puppies left actually try to represent the average person and clothes alterations Crookes shiants read the mainstream media and the establishment politicians that mainstream Media is obsessed with ratings so they're going to give you and I can give you a conflict.

They're going to give you entertainment not news.

They don't care about substance the care about making money.

How do you think independent looks like The Young Turks can fill this gap effectively without falling into the same trap the app so we were very busy all about that because we know that phenomenon exists and so do you want audiences to make sure people are watching you know so the numbers for trade all the time online but we pick it around 500 million views a month.

So it's not like I'm popular.

27 subscribers, so nobody has a monopoly on the truth, but you can do your very best at getting to the truth and to be honest and Lisa Diaries and I'll send it with ideas and now you can tell that we don't pull her punches in and around eyes because we offered and bonus if you don't strict ideology.

Will then you have to play with the facts because no idea what is a 100% right so in order to make it appear to be 100-percent late you have the fudge the facts and we never do that.

I am sure 30.

Yd, where the longest shiny in internet history because we've earn their trust but even so today.

I'm in a huge fight with the radical left in our country because first of all something somewhere twist is a Small Part of it, but they became a little bit more establishment family and I might wait.

To the left of Us why are you liking Pamela Harris oh because she's a black woman.

What does that have to do with policy who cares to this whole thing of glycolix identity politics people based on their race or religion or gender is observed that the populous love doesn't want that the the radical left wants it as soon as they stop unwanted because they don't want to talk about I can make use sodium power the radical left to do nothing but culture war and identity politics so that became an issue for us, but then secondarily much bigger problem.

Was we start talking to the right wing and unfortunately in America the far left is talking to the right-wing is in an asthma.

You should know platforming lamp and you shouldn't platform now, but wait I'm going on there.

So they're platforming me know you shouldn't even do that.

Why they're all Nazis and we talk to you or not.

See that you are not.

Or you could talk to them but you have to scream in their face the entire time and call them nothing about racism not know that's silly that I'm not going to do that insane as a warm 77 million Americans voted for Donald Trump are they all Nazis are they all races this absurd a huge percentage of the motor for Barack Obama Barack Obama 3% approval rating after inauguration so no 83% of Americans word paper Obama but they still Nazis racist so no I wanna greedy things that don't make sense so they've sorted huge war against us in almost all they left wing shows are attacking as saying how dare they are willing to talk to a woman the turkey almost there going to the right way to the right wing and scream not seeing their face so now we got a fight with the left as there is a sense of polarisation.

Obviously around the world, but we look at the moment and America you can't turn on you.

Original Radio online platform or wherever without hearing about the latest development the latest pronouncement by trump Donald Trump all of that, what's it like being a left-leaning outfit in Trump's America Media outlets that are online we're not in is better shape to be honest in the road, because he merely his old he mainly watches TV and he knows like the old outlets Barons attention for a problem with success the election honestly all the people in American medium hilarious likely just the 3rd 2040 years behind so trump didn't even really know about Joe Rogan and Theo von and all this huge party as compact as until I think 17-year old son told him about it.

Maybe 18 or have you not know that it's unbelievable to me, but he's there not alone.

I mean are you out or two anchors on CNN or executive producer was on CNN and tell know nothing about all my media ok? I'm just going back to your experience now and going on the radio a bit.

Would you like for example to have a white house press pass they're open the map of it.

Would you be are you asking for that so considering it so we don't have a wash and corresponding right now, but but I might pop in from time to time and the housemaid happened so working sitting in your purse purse.

Yes, let's get onto the business model of The Young Turks good.

That's really interesting just outline it.

What is your business model? Yeah, so we get ad Revenue and we have subscription revenue so subscription is or members who paid to get all work.

But also the supporters because in this world filled with all the misinformation and bias, etc.

Etc.

When people come to us.

It's a safe Haven and they can quit no they're not even Keira tomorrow.

They're just going to stick with the facts and so if you're in ideological group and it's going to make you uncomfortable when we disagree with you you leave darling.

It's OK God bless your heart everybody you know if you want crap again.

There is literally hundreds of shows that will give you a proper again, but for people who like honesty they were so I like these guys.

They become a member of the yt.com sites join if you like, why do some people pay up to 1000 hours and because they love the show on their loved it that basis exist but mainly the biggest Trump is advertising on YouTube Facebook Snapchat in and many other platforms in our 24-hour channel yourself as left wing.

Can you make money out of balanced Media in America and we have and so now is it much more difficult of course so if you tell everybody the military-industrial complex this wonderful and raytheon is here to protect you and so's like in Morgan to huge the first contractors in America you get a million hours of Uranus from no more 5 million.

You know we depending on your size, but you will get bright I mean get ass ok, where is we don't take out from the first contractors oil companies etc.

So we had it for now to you to Facebook and the platform so we actually that means the Day by news in those verticals in those platforms.

So that means we are not connected to those out with us, so we know who they are we don't interact with them and we have no connection to them.

So that way you're not serving them when I do anything and take sponsors directly which is rare, but I'm willing to take.

Yeah, then when it's all a bit more rigorous and he can be the world companies that sell what do you think is the most pressing challenges facing independent Media today especially the rise of subscription models that the capital becoming increasingly important to fund platforms.

I think they're too probably big chargers one of the algorithms and you know that organisms are so sensitive in they said the rules of the of the game and they create incentives and disincentives little bit dangerous in its problematic.

So let's say it's a hypothetical if an algorithm were to be Sam so they suit in audience so meaning your if you're only is your current subscribers like the content that you put out.

The nearest service to more people in the neighbours serve the next video to more people right but if you angry your audience by actually saying something that's true that but they don't like in the album punish you and sort it leads extremes, so I will them all they're not serve your video to other audiences.

Cos your original subscribers did love it and then it'll punish your next video in the video after that in the video after that and he's that happening to you and are you able to come back that yes, how we break out? So what does that mean? So would that means is if you're in television presenter in America and I was I was on MSNBC as a there 6 cos I'm TV I was Outdoors network NTV is very easy to do is get a little bit more years to the guy before you for the already told you that on audience on a silver platter.

And all the revenue is already you the infrastructure is a build the mountains of revenue.

It's better the easiest thing in the world are the highest ratings at 6 MSNBC ever had two piece of cake in online world is extremely difficult not only are there algorithms and non-owned you start from scratch from nothing right, but then they changed so if you don't know how to solve algorithms.

You'll never survive so we have a tyt is something else.

What is this algorithm 1 and how do we maintain our honesty and integrity what figuring out with the algorithm? What's and that is an enormous challenge and what next what do you think of a next big shifts in your business in the media business and I suppose as well with Will anything this rock the march of YouTube when we join YouTube

Like I said we were there first partner ever and I go to meet with the executives and separate some point and I said you know you guys are going to be the largest media company in the world and I laughed he thinks going to be the largest and I might know you're not getting it you gotten you're better than you even realise you got rid of The Gatekeepers the YouTuber with the crowd to the crowd will pick the winners as they did with us and as they have with others so you two will continue to dominate the Swallow most Amelia they get even larger than they are today goodness a lot to take in there from Jaguar found a presenter and CEO of The Young Turks speaking to Katie recently Holly from my dog more from Joe is still here.

I mean about that about that and ask about that.

I wonder if you breaking algorithms for a living yes absolutely probably the best way.

I've heard it put my stuff.

More about the algorithms on these social media platforms and the people that work at those social media platforms to have a meeting with a partner manager talk about you know I'm really struggling this way and that way and they still looking for the bank.

Look at your photos are doing live streams.

Have you considered super chance? Thanks very much for your help this conversation internal will you know whether it's across politics.

Joe football Joe all the verticals that is the challenge and the second part of what he said which is doing it with integrity and honesty because if I said to my younger self another journalist.

I want you to do me a quarter of a million €300 l'economie Lincolnshire stuff that you and said that's all the cars, but we've done it, but what Jaguar also said was that the algorithm will punish you in particular if you create content that doesn't align with what your audience normally would support and sometimes we wouldn't won't like what it's hearing from you it seems to me to give you a very strong incentive to keep telling.

What they want to hear ya confirmation bias or the other way to start with the audience capture so I think that's where the guy starts out pre-labour on social issues are most things to be quite honest with you and because he has the trappings of the Conservative I he's into hunting he's a cage fighting commentator all the other side of cultural markers that you expecting that some space in America the audience here cruise does due to the right of him and overtime you watched him go from endorsing Bernie Sanders all the way through now to the platform trump mosque in the weekend around the election, but when you're sitting in the Joe Newsroom disgusting how you going to cover a socialist you or a political issue and you know that the perspective that you're putting particular video may not align with the majority of your audience might that be a motivated you to maybe not do it or would you actively go and we don't want to do this because the algorithm will pop.

Used Jaguars fries and that's not good for business as Mike Skinner the streets, but it'd be brave clenched fists right you have to have to face it wasn't expecting Mike Skinner quote there, but your reference Excel enable content and delivery the just because it's difficult doesn't mean you should do it and yeah, if I was absolutely if you if I was one of these people that was trying to sell thousand dollar sign up to Hustler's University then maybe I would indulging content that the play to the prejudices of people looking through my content but at heart I am a journalist Morgan station is journalistic and therefore if the audience needs to hear the hard truth.

We will tell it to them and one of the things think he was wondering is as listening to talking with you and making you this was it seems me there's a slight tension between what he was saying look we know how to break algorithms.

We understand how to make this work, but he was also saying it's about the wisdom of the crowd and I was thinking well.

Is it about the algorithm? Or is it about the crowd because it sounds like it's quite a lot to do.

It sounds like it's almost entirely to do the algorithm as far as I can see and those are obviously to tensions.

I don't know what you think the other is The Madness of crowds and wisdom of Madness can-can from turning expected look quite similar to each other and I guess you.

Don't you at the end of the day you need strong editorial guidelines you need strong story selection you need you need to understand what your audience is.

You don't be afraid of telling them hard truths, but also champion in causes that they care about this is all things that sort of you edit across Media whether it's Challenger brands with Legacy Media traditional Media Public Service Broadcasting it's training that we've we've all received and I think that is where the source of the journalistic element becomes so so so important.

I felt quite naive listen to me at the end of that and doing that into when he started talking about actually having people breaking the algorithm.

So I was thinking I should have been more aware of that.

Why was I not aware?

But you would need that inside the sort of organisations and then you're here saying yes absolutely I genuinely listening to what you're saying.

I should have not been a long day long.

I think ok bit breathless American improvement feel like that, but I could be saying it's absolutely the Way You Are unfortunately beholden to these platforms and that by the way is worth the strategy about more direct traffic one of the the great in my life is Direct traffic on the BBC News website pulls out because when these audiences are coming to you you get you at the discretion of word is you doing then tell them well, you leave me directly when I was wanted to talk to you both about which is that if someone comes Direct your website that cause you can control how you monetize their them being on your platform, but was interesting and what he was saying about The Young Turks is that primarily there income comes through what you called programmatic advertising and that programmatic advertising is run by YouTube which is owned by Google and so if you're going to be a

Business primarily generating revenue that way you can be very successful, but the most successful, you are a chunk of that success is all going in the direction of one of the biggest companies in the world.

Yes, we did run out of time before I asked him that was on my list to ask him.

How do you feel about taking money from Google but we didn't get that far.

It's one of those weakness right as a publisher to have a revenue stream and so when he saying yeah.

We have to go to the revenue that stick box ticked box for me because that's absolutely something that we're looking at doing on the Joe side of things that you can probably fold in native to ship as well, but you're absolutely right at the end of the day as political figure in the UK respond saying we live in a society and if you want to you know right on that perhaps some of the people at The Young Turks wish to be you can go and live in a barrel in the woods, but what good are you doing and at the end of the day if you want to meet people where they are and if you want to be a force for good.

Tell the truth unfortunately some of that means you might have to do a deal with some of the technical corporations that are possibly polluting our Society and I discuss but you can be a force for good in those places to appreciate your time that sorry dogmeat from joe.co.uk survey amongst its readers and viewers about male role models that you can find online and if you want to hear more on the issues raised by the lessons we should remember remind me that on BBC sounds you'll find series like about the boys and our boys which address those issues.

Just time before the end of the program for some news for gamers out there because in the past couple of hours details of the long-awaited new Nintendo console that just been and out in Paris the switch to that's their first released for nearly a decade the industry's been in the doldrums to some extent in the last couple of years after all the interesting online gaming during lockdown, what does McDonald the Guardians videogame editor watch the

Your whether to joining us now.

I'm how bigger deal is this? What was the launch like in Paris where you were in the world? You were watching this new console and the new games in some big fancy venue and then a bit faster.

No is the first Nintendo console in the years of the Nintendo switches enormous success.

It sounds like 100 50 million.

So yeah, there's been a lot of excitement and anticipation for what Nintendo would do next and then we finally know and did you get a sense then of how switch is different to switch one someone else rather than sliding down the side of the satisfying click and it's got a nice the screen.

It will look prettier or your existing gamers will look better and of course.

They will be new exclusive games just for the switch to which really push.

It's it's not anything like drastically new like if you remember the Nintendo Wii with its motion controllers wireless game controller.

There's nothing massively innovative there, but it's a nice upgrades a conservative but none the less good-looking console and is it just about this new console or are they actually new games being announced at the same time the big one was the Mario Kart world so Mario Kart is obviously one of the best-selling and most beloved games anywhere in the world and a new one is a big deal.

So Mario Kart world is a sort of much more expanded version of Mario Kart instead of just racing on courses you have a whole world that you can race around the other surprised.

It was a new Donkey Kong game which is the first one of those and well, this is it something that isn't it? So but we didn't see new Mario and we didn't see new Zelda and those are obviously big deals for Nintendo's being kept for further generalise.

I can't tell quite from your the way you're talking about this.

Just give me a sense.

How excited are you personally about this because I'm going to be able to tell them that how excited because I am a huge Nintendo fan, am a big Nintendo Nintendo sell for me if you do I also have two or boys who are right at the age where Nintendo what is called still as I think some kids start getting to be teenagers.

They really do think intendo is terribly I'm cool, but I think if you are someone who really cares about like the video games or someone who has any kind of personal connection to Nintendo it's a really big moment when it comes out, but this was a special yes, I've got to say you must be the perfect parent for those boys.

You're the only parent who doesn't say get off at no no game end game.

I'm interested when you are launching a product into the technology space given the speed at which all technology is developing at the moment.

How do these companies go?

Landing a product which is an out-of-date even by the time they've gone through the long process of developing it that is a very passionate video games because video gaming technology improve very very think of the difference between the 90s and the visuals of games have improved so much in such a relatively compressed period of time in the last 1015 years.

It's really bad about how people make money out of getting rather than the technology transforming the game experience you know.

I'm so now Nintendo has always had this approach of using old technology technology with it and making it cost-effective always makes money on its consoles.

It always makes money on its game people like Sony and Microsoft bell sell a PlayStation and Xbox they don't sell that I lost 3 years to try and make up the money software on people buying things with them games.

So it is hard to Lodge like a cutting-edge new technological products of any kind, but especially in games the trick Now is really how creative you can get with the technology.

That's already affordable and

And so just quickly we're talking about business models with Holly from joe.co.uk in terms of the business model around this particular product.

It's all about the sales of the hardware in the world the game rather than ongoing subscriptions or ongoing additional software that we would buy that is that is very old fashioned of Nintendo these days are the biggest games in the world these days including obviously fortnite and Roblox with my children don't play by the way in Portsmouth important things to say when you got a game repair and I still don't let them play Robot so these games.

I'll make money from monetizing gamers attention and sometimes Youngs Nintendo makes money by selling you a thing that's good and then you just played as much as you like.

I think that's especially for families.

That's quite an important aspect of my Nintendo is this good? How's it going to quickly? Will you be buying one or two get one free? I will probably be going on anyway, because my children will probably want to play mine and I won't.

The last question which is when can people buy them, when are they actually out the release date is June the 5th so really quite soon and in the UK is going to cost £395 at lunch which is what I would have expected.

Ok.

Thanks.

Kevin McDonald the Guardians video games editor back on the media show again now.

I should just mention this is looking very interesting that we are gearing report that Elon Musk can we talk about a lot on the media show is going to step down from dose the Department of government efficiency in Washington DC state uniform or on that p.m.

Who may be picking up the story but that's it from us.

Thank you so much particular Holly Dugdale he still sitting here but goodbye from all of us by it's a parents nightmare.

So said the boy and I was holding my hands out ready to cuddling and they took him away I switch at birth discovered with the gift of a home DNA test.

Brother that we grew up with wasn't a brother and someone out there if he still alive is a Race Against Time I don't want to leave this happen to us on the gift from Radio 4 with me Jenny kleeman, listen now on BBC sounds.