Read this: Peter Kosminsky, AI and publishing, Media crackdown in Turkey

he tells her that she will be sent to France and if she's got she's going to be shot and this is secret Heroes on extraordinary stories from World War II what they wanted was someone to get themselves arrested and sent to Auschwitz tales of deception and acts of resistance and courage BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 and welcome dramas are being made due to the TV Industries squeezed funding model I've been speaking to one of the UK's most acclaimed writers and directors Peter kosminsky the man behind Wolf Hall

The Promise and much more will look at AI and the publishing industry after more details of emerged on the extent to which books are being used to train a I will be profiling the founder of the encrypted Chat app signal after the editor of the Atlantic magazine reveals how he was added to a white house group chat discussing strikes in Yemen and after 10 journalists are the tained anti-government protests in Turkey will hear about the challenges of trying to report from there, but we are going to be in by talking about television and Katie you at the Royal Television Awards last night.

Give me that sounds like a lot of fun today lucky Me All Dressed Up and a swanky London hotel celebrate you up for the Wardle you I was not I was just observing in my job is culture medium that event celebrates the best British TV programme so there's the likes of James Corden Claudia Winkleman both of them one special prizes Danny Dyer who won best supporting actor.

And many others were there and of course it's also full of behind-the-scenes camera Talent so everyone from directors writers producers and of course executives who commissioned the shows and entirely apparent last night, but British high-end TV is facing a funding crisis.

It's a subject of a dcms select committee enquiry which is ongoing and the alarm has been sounded by a profile figures in the industry including Peter kosminsky who's faster and Golden Globe winning director of will fall which is nominated for best drama series last night and I spoke to him last week for an interview originally for BBC Newsnight and we wanted to run more of what he said he won the media show 45 years.

I've worked in television.

This is the first genuinely existential crisis is for Public Service Broadcasting that I've experienced.

Why are we in the situation and how we allowed it to happen.

What is a combination of factors inevitable e?

But primarily it's because wonderful explosion of of the of the American streamers coming here making their shows here which is all together fantastic has had a side effect of driving the cost of everything we do up.

They've got deep pockets.

We have a relatively speaking we are very talented productionbase a cruise and actors and producers and directors, but it's not unlimited and so they compete for us and that drives the price up and the public service broadcaster BBC iTV Channel 4 Channel 5 varying come hasn't kept up with these increase prices.

So they can't afford to make drums like walfall anymore.

They can't afford dramas like Mr Bates vs.

The post office or Hillsborough of some of the most important dramas about issues of public policy and other other issues things that

Particular interest to a UK audience pads don't play quite so well in Milwaukee but we need our broadcasters here to be able to make these programs and currently not able to and people listening to this listening to what you're saying those programs are very recent Wolf Hall Mr Bates be the post office.

How do we know that you're saying is the ITV however it might be can't afford to make the now.

Are you saying that there are programmes that were plan that are in the Works that aren't being made packed which is the organisation that represents reduces in this company has said that there are 15 so-called greenlit projects that they're aware of LV many more actually those the ones with people have been prepared to be open about it 15 Productions which apsb BBC channel for ITV of said they like to make with a funding isn't sufficient and the project as a result com' proceedings.

Do you think those are British focused those the ones that are difficult to find in all those projects will have been offered to the streamers and all will have been turned down the part of the problem.

Is that the streamers will not co-produce normally.

What would happen is the BBC wants to make a show like that? They can't afford to make it so they go to Netflix or Amazon order and they say would you like to make it with us and you can have some rights and we'll just have the UK transmission the streams won't do that.

They want to hold Leone the projects and as a result co-production as we as we call it has dried up in this country in a minute.

Just want to pick up about will thought you say that will fall wouldn't be made but you have talked in the past.

I recently nearly didn't get made.

I think we will lucky if you can call it that in that we were right on the cusp for point where it could just about get made and that was because the BBC when the extra mile masterpiece in America went the extra mile.

They both put in for more money than they normally would it still wasn't enough but with some contribute some of us were prepared to make it was possible to get the show or a reduced version of the show me.

What did it mean was there a moment where you thought this isn't going to happen.

He was about six weeks from production and the producer Lisa Osborne had been valiantly trying to find little cutts here and there we cut the budget repeatedly suggestions for ways that we could lose certain elements certain prop certain locations certain sets and costumes certain members of the car.

That would enable us to be able to go ahead and about 6 weeks from production.

She and I were on the phone together.

I was in a car somewhere in Wales looking for a location.

I remember saying we're not going to be able to do this our way the gap is too great and she said no you're right.

I don't see how we can do it so I mentioned this to Colin calendar who was the executive producer on the show and ask him to inform the BBC masterpiece that we will have to stop and that's not something that has ever happened to me before in all the years.

I've been making programs that you've actually had to stop 6-weeks from production it felt like the most terrible admission of failure.

And then Colin took the first step and gave up most of his feet and very mind that Colin and I have been working on the show for over 10-years completely unpaid during that period on the basis that we would eventually be paid but we made the program and then when he was gracious enough to give pretty much is entire fee.

I obviously felt I needed to reciprocate then Peter straughan.

The screen right who's just won an Oscar for optician of of the conclave novel gave up the second half of his fee and then Mark rylance very incredibly generously also gave up.

A huge proportion of his fee that still didn't quite get us there, but it got us to the point where would further cuts it was possible to see a version of the show we could make and what were those cuts.

What did the viewer not get if you like that what it was but we went to see Katie because you know I don't want the view that immediate disappointment, but if you take a closer look at the Drum will notice that we very rarely leave Interiors almost everything is conversation in rooms know if you read Hilary mantels, novel and instantly if you repeat a Thrones original scripts we have many seen sat outside many scenes involving horses.

We had a whole host and everything so it became effectively a chamber piece.

I don't want to say that disrespectfully because I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved, but the original concept was a programme with more fresher heron.

It got more of a sense of Tudor Society out in the world and the lives these people live when they weren't in the throne rooms and palaces and beautiful dining rooms is the cause this deficit you like when it came to Woodhall is it part of the round? Is it part of the same issue that were discussing more broadly absolutely can we get kind of UK skewed high-end drama high-end documentary high-end comedy made in this country anymore.

The problem is not just those not getting made the problem is that our broadcasters have been forced out and can't afford to make high and programs anymore to be really blunt.

Even if these kinds of programs would being made by the streamers.

I personally don't think that's the answer just all I don't want all editorial decisions made about what we watch in the UK being made in California some of these decisions about what a UK audience would like need to be made by people here in the UK and let's also not forget that there are growth and employment issues here and even most of the employment that is provided for work in television decisions are all being made in America and then as is the case now actually there's a contraction in America

all the people who work here are suddenly out of work.

There's no buffer been provided by our homegrown broadcasters.

You think there should be solved but before I do I suppose there are people who will be listening to what you saying will say will it? We're just watching a program on Netflix at the moment.

It's called Adolescents in Britain it's got a British car that's written by British writer.

It's about a subject that people across the world and here and Britain really care about the impact of social media and misogynist influence on teenage boys.

Belsay on Netflix is making the kind of content is British Focus what's your answer to that celebrate the Netflix and the extremes of making pro adolescence.

It's a fantastic program written by a writer from here featuring actors who are from here.

We'll play in America that's great is not wonderful but there are some British subjects, but will not play so although we can always point to these one or two projects like adolescence like toxic.

They're always going to be in an extreme minority on a channels which are essentially essentially for an American audience, so what's the answer? We need a new form of revenue so where's this money coming from well who's doing very well in the situation the streamers the streamers are doing very well at the moment and all I'm saying is that they should.

Tribute to ensure that there market practises do not drive our public service broadcasters out of business, so my proposal is that we love them Levi the UK subscriber income but they received every year every month 5% That's about typical of what happens in Europe incidentally 17 other countries including all our natural allies from Spain Italy Germany they already the streamers in this kind of way and 5% is fairly typical the key there is the trump the trump administration has already said they do not support regulation of the streamers.

They back American industry.

They back there tech companies and very against this but I think that even those who are of that mindset would accept that isn't really fair for their broadcasters to drive our broadcast.

Out of business and in actual fact it's just short-sighted.

You know who do you think trains all the people that then go to work for Netflix and Amazon and Disney you know they select the service broadcaster to the heavy lifting on the training and finding and developing and nurturing the towns and then they they just just buy them up.

I don't think that's fair and I can get short-sighted ultimately they would accept but it's within alright, but not unreasonably about 20% Levy or anything crazy like that at 5% Which is a relatively small amount of money for that.

It would be across the board so it wouldn't favour one strimmer over another there are other arrival suggestions for how to solve this rather than a subscription Levi people in your industry about higher tax credits, so solving this through taxation if you have UK Focus content and you pass certain tests then you would.

Car tax breaks if you like, why do you say that's not the right situation all not the right solution.

I'm posse not convinced by that as solution first of all.

It's almost impossible to imagine that you could frames such a tax break and exclude the streamers been over streamers making programs here is simple to see why they shouldn't be allowed to apply for any additional tax break as they apply for the current tax break.

So what would happen if the same thing would happen as happened the last time we gave the stream has a tax break the price of everything we do would be full stop so I'm one level you might say that unless you could very specifically target the tax break just at the public service broadcasters.

It would exacerbate the from secondly the people have been proposed in this paper proposed a very narrow budget Range and this get to technical with base.

Been in the 1 million to 3 million pounds per hour cost of the drama which is not the highest but but is all sorted medium level and I think that's partly been proposed to try to stop the streamers applying for it because they're shows tend to cost a lot more than that the trouble is that would also exclude all costume drama on here not for that amount.

No I mean costume drama.

So just period dramas costume dramas, are just inherently much more expensive for all the obvious reasons and of course the things that British television is most celebrated for it's all around the world is it's costume drama, so be ashamed to bring in something that might help at the margins, but actually wouldn't help most celebrated genres of of television drama Mr Bates be the post office that was.

Profound that was Jimmy McGovern the Lockerbie drama these programs that are Focus primarily on on British stories and British events, but I think what you're saying is they forced to change and I country that time is it and is that part of the Clarion Call that you're making if you like.

Drama has a different function from news news and current affairs is the bedrock of our understanding of what's going on in our democracy and everyday like you and your colleagues.

Look at the events and try to take an egift subjective impression of what's going on but by it's very definition.

There's an immediacy to that.

It's difficult to reflect we have drama programme makers have that luxury and that I think is why Mr Bates vs.

The post office had the impact it did everyone knew about that story and yep when a drama came along it had the most radical impact and that we all thought we knew that story drama speaks to a different bit of us.

It works almost exclusively on an emotional level so these kinds of dramas are vital their part of free speech in this country you don't see them in lots of other rather more.

Countries is part of our badge of honour of what it means to be a democracy and a free Society and we lose them at our peril.

That's the Peter kosminsky speaking with UK's in a huge amount of Food for Thought in that conversation that you have with Peter kosminsky.

I think a lot of people listening like me may have been a shock to hear how close will got not happening.

Yes, and I was really shocked by hearing that we had he had said before that they'd had to follow their fees but he went so much further than that interview talking about telling us 6 weeks before a shooting picking the episode that he was not going to be able to make it and then all the big cats that they made when I am such as a matter of his work and is clearly so sincere in raising the alarm is at the only person that here in the UK the only industry Insider he's doing that they are talking to me about that because the numbers are really start the Producers behind Mr Bates vs.

The post office told me 7 years ago.

Dramas like that cost about 1.3 million and 7 years later it costs 2.3 million pounds but the gap which does a huge gap between the amount of money that you can get for the BBC weather forecast in the amount you have to make up and that's just completely dried up.

I thought that she would ask about adolescence and since you did ask that question it's continued to record a number that made history this week is the first UK streaming show to top the weekly UK TV ratings and adolescence is on Netflix but I was also struck the Peter kosminsky seem to be putting a question against whether that program would get made by a public service broadcaster as opposed to a streaming moment that program got 6.45 million people watching it in last week and it is worth pointing out that slightly push back on Facebook but it was commissioned in the UK by a Brit someone that I had my first job in TV working when she's got an answer and she's Netflix is Vice President

What Peter was saying was at the public service broadcasters couldn't afford to make it and he's actually backed up by Jack Thorne it's writer who does the colleague of mine after the interview said it if a traditional pasta head made that they have had the cut the expensive scenes and so he said it would have been a different program and he seems to agree with Peter that they have needed to funding from abroad and that that finance has disappeared has been made who cares who's making it and I think it does matter if you believe in public service broadcast as vital players in the media ecosystem or indeed if you argue like Peter kosminsky, how's it in the end? They are more likely to choose to make this kind of British Focus drama.

Just pick up on some of these you're talking about and that Peter kosminsky talked about to with someone who's got an important perspective Jane tranter is a former controller of drama at the BBC now.co a bad wolf the production company by any number of It series including industry, which won best drama series at the

Television Society Awards last night John welcome from Ed Sheeran first thing's first congratulations, thank you.

It must have been a very good night very very fine night.

Yes very exciting.

It's unusual for a third season to win an award like that so the team with wrote that you make that series with the BBC and without an American company, but do you recognise the challenges that Peter kosminsky without lining yes, it's undoubtedly the question undoubtedly we are facing a a funding crisis in drama at the moment, but it's worth pointing out the many different ways to try and get funding for a drama in the UK interestingly industry was actually fully funded by HBO which is in.

Company obviously and they asked me to make something which for HBO would be relatively low budget in the UK that was around to be technical about it £2000000 and episode when we made season 1 and they wanted to do something which was experimental for them with new writing Talent and I was given a free hand to essentially use white as it never worked television before with actors who were fresh out of drama school and to see what happens next and what happened next was industry the BBC came in on there as a minority co-producer and and have been brilliant on the journey throughout that is a happy that is one of the happy stories proves or disproves the rule because Peter kosminsky document wasn't that great British programming can't happened just that it's harder to make happen when the funding is primarily coming from.

Business is another word streamers.

It's it's the funding crisis.

Just break that it's a big problem and it breaks down into different problems for different so if you would say to me, where do you think the real problem in funding is in UK Drama at the moment? I would say it's not at the high end of the market Peter highlights those hire and pieces.

Do you turn the bed difficult to get funded the more difficult than they were but ultimately they do tend to get made for me the real problem in television drama at the moment is how to find the smaller pieces where which are very British store is where in BBC Colin the nation speech to nation about the way we live now so pieces like the the post office please for example that you referenced and I think it's those sorts of pieces.

The television equivalent of the independent film that had a tax credit erase recently for the difficult to fund independent British grumpy says about the UK and I'm full of britishness and I think that television drama is a little bit behind what has happened in independent film in how we need to raise our game in finding a way to pieces in the current climate and we want to talk more broadly about how those challenges can be addressed, but I wondered just to be explicit about your experience.

Have you ever come as close? As is a kosminski describe two going actually we just can't make this series because the money just isn't there he had to pull the plug on an idea which you think would have been a great piece of content for the country.

I think Peter's experience which he he talks about very precisely and very moving Lee is Russell

Biggest nightmare that any producer could have a half to be in that situation and they obviously dealt with that situation very well and very brave me in the end and thank goodness for that because we got that that second Walsall made my experience is slightly different as a producer.

I did make a period drama last year don't girls which I made for just over 3 million and I'm making another period drama at the moment for the BBC which is just over 3 million call the other Bennet sister and what I did in those situations was understand the amount of money because I'm like Walsall which is an adaptation of a very big book and they've been working on it for 10 years, so it's much harder to shift and change what you're doing to fit a budget what girls and the other Bennet sister is we understood as a funding crisis on this is the amount of money will have available and we did the peace in order to fit the production budget that was available.

Always ideal not everyone could do it but in those two pieces.

That's what we did and we managed to revert having to stand the shows and Jane what do you want the government to do? Do you were talking about tax is that is that the answer do you think or are you understanding of Peter suggestion that the 5% Levy on the UK subs actions of the streamers? I don't have a solution to the problem.

I and I don't think there's necessarily one solution to the problem.

I think Peter Levy is one track to go and that will involve a particular relationship between the government and the streamers which Frankie is is way above my paygrade.

There is a path which independent up to a budget of 15 million film has already proud and so that is a part that television could go down and say alright.

There's lower budget pieces about the way.

Now in the UK which are harder to find maybe we can follow that pattern.

I also think there's a third path which is alright Peter talks about Public Service Broadcasting how and how we found that there will be a conversation to be heard about that.

I don't think that the tax credit idea is an absolute soul, but it could be bridged that gives us time to find a bigger solution to the problem.

We have a couple of things we wanted to ask you about work i p because public service intellectual property public service broadcasters may take different approaches to the streamers who normally like the keyboard of the intellectual property which comes with the program if an identical budget from a PSP or from a strimmer.

Do you have a preference different deals you can do with a strimmer one takes all the

And the other is just the licence so I Tend not to look at it like that.

I tend to look at what is the best home for the project and where is where is the home that is going to really serve the longevity and creative needs of the project and last year.

I must ask you about Doctor Who he worked with very close to you.

Of course be aware that last month there were rumours that Doctor Who was potentially facing the act that Disney may not really renew its deal the deal it has with the BBC are you able to do anything about that because there are lots of concern fans Doctor Who is a 60-year old franchise today.

It is it's 20-year anniversary since Russell T Davies and and the BBC brought it back.

We are halfway through a 26 episode order from Disney class forgotten.

13 episodes of Doctor Who another eight episodes of Doctor Who to go and five episodes of the war between the land and sea as far as I'm aware Disney plus have not said they're not renewing it.

I think these episodes needs to go out and we'll see what happens but definitely Doctor Who will continue in some form or another thank you so much for coming to transfer an earlier of course Peter kosminsky talking about the crisis as both of you say in TV drama as a subject we talked about a lot on the media show how the television in the UK involved in the coming years, how it evolves its business model.

I am certain.

We will be coming back to it now the issue of how AI affects intellectual copyright isn't new it's one of the main fundamental issues that AI raises for the media and one piece of work by the Atlantic has brought that into even sharper Focus in particular for authors and publishers.

Uses what a cold LM large language models and in order to train ellams, you need content lots of different types of content and that could include books and in an ongoing us lawsuit metabee owners of Facebook is being accused of using a database of pirated books to train.

It's AI the database is called library Genesis libgen.io last week the Atlantic released a searchable version of library Genesis which allows authors to see if their books are there in the moment will get an author's perspective and the perspective of the publishing industry, but first that's searchable database was created by Alex reisner a programmer and contributing writer at the Atlantic hello Alex welcome to the media show us first describe what exactly is library Genesis huge collection of books and research papers.

And some other things that's been circulating online on file-sharing networks for about 15-years started in Russia and it's been all over the world lot of people have added to it and it's got over 7/2 million bucks in an over 18 million research papers and how then did it's alleged used by meta.

Come to light people won't know but there is this ongoing lawsuit going on in the background of several lawsuits against the company is just one into Richard kadrey an author in another authors against matter that case started almost a year ago and so we're getting into the discovery phase and a lot of internal communications among employees are being made public and we can see many employees talking about.

Get the books to train their lol and they talk about the possibility of buying them licencing.

I'm in various ways we can see them talking to publishers and kind of doing that.

It's really expensive it's going to take a while and so ultimately they just decide to download library Genesis and just use the books without without paying and it is worth in letters that they said they develop transformational Jhene open source LMS that apparent incredible innovation productivity and creativity of individuals and companies fair.

Use of copyrighted materials is vital to this they say we disagree with the plant is association assertions.

That's the printers in the court case and the full record tells a different story we will continue to vigorously defend ourselves and to protect the development of genyte for the benefit of all the Alex just explain why you wanted to make a database based on this.

What's the capital city of companies for various reasons just don't want people know how they're building has been on one reason it is they are from a certain angle exploiting the work alarm people and so I just felt the other books are being used to build AI another might not have a problem with that.

They might have a problem with it and then they should know that is happening.

So you've been able to have a look and see where they're booked in it, but there are some caveats, aren't there yeah, there's can you know there's no doubt that matter download all of library Genesis but it's it's hard to know how much they actually used it's likely that used most of it, but because of they have internal way is a Game of Thrones secret of filtering the books and deciding for various reasons what gets using what doesn't it's just not really possible to know exactly.

What what kind of response have you had to your tool of you might hear about in a minute? Yeah? I just thought about those wondering kind of what what they can do the surprised and unhappy with you and thank you very much.

Well one person and they have been thousands and thousands of them but one person who found a name in the Atlantic database is Rosie Wilby the comedian and author of the book The monologues and Roses Welcome to the media show Alexa saying authors have been getting in touch with him and expressing their anger.

Is that how you felt when you saw your book there hello and thank you for having me and thank you to Alex for shining a light on this because yes as you say like many millions of other friends and colleagues.

I typed my name in.

Search for and was very shocked to find both of my books were there and most likely had be used by meta in this way to train their large language models and most importantly no one and certainly no one has ever offered payments and bearing in mind that in the UK it was found recently that the average annual salary of an author is as lonely a £7,000 and we see metal this hugely.

You know trillion-dollar company not paying us just deciding no we're not gonna bother paying for this material you can imagine how we feel just completely exploited and I got to ask you the idea of being paid by a text to use your book but first of all does the fact that it's not automatically the case that your book or any other book has been used by meta to train it AI

Is that offer any reassurance no, cos we just in the dark and we don't know and the way these models work is that they need to use vast amounts of data most likely the pretty much.

I was in the library has been used all of certain parts of it have been and we just don't know we have no control I mean for example authors do often give their work away for example the published by new newspapers and magazines but we would know which extract and how many words and with our publishers we would have control over things like that and yes, we want our work to be out there and there may be ways of collaborating with these kinds of systems in the future in ways where we it is licenced properly and we are paid and we do here is doing more evercore deals with with a I would you be open then to an arrangement.

Is by your publisher whereby you received some money from a company that was then going to use your books in the development of their I will have a different position on this and I might have a different position about my fiction that I'm writing now which I do feel sort of is very personal and individual and is unique to me and I would feel more protective perhaps of that.

Where is my non-fiction books? I had a primary motive of trying to become a part of the conversation about the psychology of love and make that all diverse and inclusive lgbtq + relationships in the future sometime in AI model of learning how to write a Rosie Wilby Style but it's the psychology of love from the perspective of a middle-aged lesbian comedian, then I might actually be quite into that but I would want to in some way be credited and recognised and paid for it.

After my death then for my state to get paid but I also think there's a wide and moral question here about wouldn't say I be put to better use helping with the human beings actually need help with like during cancer.

Alzheimer's you know rather than writing books which human beings seem to be quite good at doing well.

I guess some people might argue.

It might go about both both just quickly asked you before we say thank you and I would live on the radio at the moment, but what are the WhatsApp groups you're on with otherwise has been like since that Atlantic search was published has been very very concerned and have been concerned that publishes don't seem to be taking this seriously.

I am very relieved that both my agents code is brown and my pub should we are taking this very seriously and will be working with the publishers Association who I believe you are also going to be speaking to to to look into this and see what's happening.

Well you very much.

Yes, thank you very much indeed for doing that.

That's Rosie Wilby comedian and author of two books one of which is the breakup monologues.

Yeah, she's write the Rosie though because we are now going to hear from Catriona MacLeod general counsel and Deputy CEO of the publishers Association hello Katrina have you seen a response within the publishing industry? Have you had that authors like Rosie approaching you absolutely as as the other guests of the genus is a massive piracy network and that has been known to the publishers association and others that tackled pirate industry for many years and it's been a subject of a number of disruption enforcement efforts, but what this tool has done is brought that brought that into the focus of of authors and publishers more generally really brought out into the public domain that this is their work not only contained in a huge pirate.

Network but are also being used in the training of Our Language models that can publishers what are publishers doing to protect office so things going on.

I think one of the most important things that happened recently is that the government has been Consulting about this issue about AI and copyright the publishers association and many others I think about 13000 and total have been involved in responding to it's consultation about about this area.

So I think that's it.

That's important point because well, it is important, but it seems like I'm gonna drop.

This is that consultation looks like where the government is going is that right holders electro opt-out and if they don't collect walked out use the material that yeah, so they have consulted with this preferred approach in mind that they should be an exception to copyright and less the right holder Ops out that isn't that isn't.

Which that we think is the right starting point we think the starting point for this is transparency what happened has happened.

Is that these companies need to be compelled to disclose the works on which they have trained and they wish to train and that is the starting point for enforcement of rights for licencing of content which is the right way for this market to develop a messer as I said I said fair use of copyrighted materials vital to the development of generative AI what's your thoughts on what fair use might be used as part of the United States rather than the UK we have a fair dealing law here which is slightly even even the fairies provision in the US it has a number of factors.

You have to satisfy and one of them.

Is that it shouldn't compete with the original work now to use example that such binary.

You've written 7 bestsellers and they are heading as machine food to an AI model in that can write an eight one then it is competing with the work and therefore you know I wouldn't say that is fair use.

Benefit from working with AI developing would there be is there a licencing regime that is feasible or is that difficult to set up but although existing examples you can point to which would work with monetize in a way that was beneficial to everyone I mean.

I think they I can be a great thing is going to revolutionise the way we do business, but you know the biggest companies in the world torrenting party content and just taking the chances and that is not the way to do it publishes in the wider creative Industries or supportive AI has great potential for the economy, Society and our members embrace in their operations and AI and performs a crucial role in an underpinning I develop development in the UK but the appropriate mechanism for that for that development is licencing and yes time to your question.

There are examples of of licencing deals taking place.

There is examples between

Involving writers Axel Springer Taylor and Francis there's a number of Public examples of this and that is the right way for the for the the market to develop rather than any kind of exception to copyright law.

Thank you Richard Stevenson from the publishers Association thanks so much for my own program that the program by hearing from one reporter from the Atlantic as I'm sure you're aware of the Atlantic is having quite a big week, but Jeffrey Goldberg is editor-in-chief and I guess tonight show not so long ago was accidentally added to a group chat with senior White House officials in the US who were about us conducting strikes Yemen this month the app.

They were using to send messages to each other was signal and after the story was published the trump administration went on the attack particularly about Jeffrey Goldberg and chief of the Atlantic is the defence secretary Pete hegseth responding to questions from a reporter.

Will share with a journalist in details classified talking body?

Deceitful and highly discredited so-called journalist, who's made a profession of pedalling hope this time and time are the administration of downplay The Importance the messages sent in the chat with the director of national intelligence tools are gathered saying there was no classified material.

That was shared in that signal group early this afternoon.

Jeffrey Goldberg release more in the chart James Ball political editor of the new European is there a gentle you covered a number of Leek stories including those by Edward Snowden out of the US national Security Agency when you're at the Guardian today's new revelations in the Atlantic tell us the director of national intelligence told Jeffrey Goldberg to come out and prove it if he was saying it was classified which is extremely silly thing to do when she knows what the messages say because she was in the group us rules are very clear.

They set them out publicly, it's not very cloak-and-dagger like here and funnily enough.

Things that are classified are the exact details of the timing of an attack the weaponry you're going to use and who you're going to strike and Goldberg initially rejected these even though the attack attack and he tried to do it right he tried to do it responsibly and he was goaded by the most senior intelligence officer in America to publish it which is extraordinary, but it would be was inevitable once that happened.

He had quite carefully he put out as much of the messages as he could and left out details but he said I'm not posting some details of the time the strike and weaponry used data and round and said that's not classified now the US says what is classified AD at what level and this material would have been classified at secret level which is very very classified.

There's only one level above that.

So this was this was a huge national Security breaches.

It's even if they haven't put the editor-in-chief of one of the biggest.

The country in it and James one of the many consequences of this story is a huge amount of attention on signal which some people may use but many many people listening may not have heard of before just give us.

We're gonna is part of a series of tech profiles were going to find out about the man behind the app, but it people have not used it's essentially a message quite similar in functionality to some others but with some differences as well.

It's a singer that has a real focus on privacy and security.

It's actually the same underlying technology that keeps WhatsApp secure and they go to talk about boxing bowlers bikeworks up WhatsApp as well.

It is very privacy conscious.

It has better security the most apps, but otherwise it's like WhatsApp and moxie marlinspike posted on xb1 must platform yesterday after this story saying there so many great Reasons to be on signal now including the opportunity for the vice president of the United States of America to randomly added to a group chat for coordination of sensitive military operations.

Don't sleep on this opportunity he advisor.

Tell us more about in what kind of tech World did he grow up in both as a teenager presenting his professional life so from the kind of not together that he likes to use is called Matthew rosenfeld, but I like Mark see a lot better he comes from the kind of hacking cyber libertarian kind of background.

He cares a lot about privacy a lot about cryptography which is how you protect that but he's not someone who's trying to get onto rich.

He's not someone who's gone out there and started giving you all of his politics and all sorts of things since about 20 and he has been invented and improving messenger apps and actually trying to open them up, so as many people as possible.

Can you use them is an anarchist some people use that he certainly got that kind of scepticism from government that comes with that he isn't one of the big tech people who I think you would be quite surprised that government we using his services to organise.

Strikes the kind of people has often been thinking about are the people who would like to journalist the people who would maybe post WikiLeaks document so that kind of thing how do you go for being so a teenager who's interested in coding and a bunch of other things too.

I'm sure to someone who's that senior at WhatsApp and then is creating an app.

That's arrival to WhatsApp where's the jump what is think of hacker or hacking? We think someone breaking into our systems what most people who defined as hackers mean if someone who likes coding and solving problems and building stuff and marks he's very much that kind of happy.

He's been interested in how to secure messaging he made a startup called whisper which was a very nerdy messaging app if you were a tech journalist like me and a nerd you if you set it got bought by Twitter and so he was the head of Twitter security for a bit he got really angry that they didn't make Twitter direct messages secure this is actually something Elon promise to do and never.

And eventually kind of drifted out of Twitter cos they never sorted it just explain what you're saying if you send a message on Twitter you don't have the same levels of protection that you would have on WhatsApp or if you send someone a message on WhatsApp Mark Zuckerberg can't read it however much.

He wants to he can't hand it over to anyone else and he can't read it if you DM someone and Elon Musk decide he wants he can and he can send it to anyone who wants that's the difference between secure messaging and unsecured messaging interesting me.

I've noticed that some people don't trust what's happened.

What are they seem to be moving to signal and I seem to be getting quite a lot now with messages for my journalistic day job which are on signal rather than on WhatsApp so most people should feel pretty safe using WhatsApp it is largely the same underlying technology lively sort of founded by the same guy but signal is more careful about how it implements it and people who are

Dr journalist who are whistleblowers in countries where they might get track down which might be America now will find signal safer and more secure.

It's a very good app and finally James of the week with hearing about some of the most important people who are building the technology we all use they're almost all men but how does moxie marlinspike compare with the archetypal Tetbury is quite takbro if he he plays rock paper scissors for high-stakes.

He's appeared on Joe Rogan he has fitted up a derelict sailboat with his friends.

He likes building his hands, but he stays in his lane.

He likes secure messaging he has founded lots of companies that done that and he's made a lot of the code free and available to the world, so he's a bit bro if she's a bit too much, but I think it's one of the nice ones.

I think he's a bit you know he's not only in it for himself at all.

Now those of you listening.

I'm sure you've seen that for 7 days and nights demonstrators have taken to the streets in Turkey this was prompted by the rest of the samples may he was seen as one of president of one's main political rivals and in the days that followed that arrest monks the 1403 people who have been detained at least 10 are journalists including afp news agency.

Who was covering the process the chairman of a cold the detention unacceptable and has written to president Erdogan what is a lot more about the media Crackdown in Turkey with joined by Celine Dion from the BBC World Service hello Celine what do we know about the detain journalist was seven of them have been remanded in custody now.

When is not good afp photographer and another one is a former ASDA photographer brand Carluccio's been a journalist for over 20-years after day and he's an award.

International the award-winning journalist and some of them are my friends from covering Turkey I'm sorry and yeah.

I'm sorry too but there's some good news.

I have spoken to their loyal I can and earlier today the Justice minister had a made a statement which was thought to be more positive than previous statements.

He said they would be investigating the cases of these journalists and if their actions were within the parameters of journalism, then they would reassess the situation so there's that hope the lawyers at least that they will be released soon.

We understand whether a country like turkey, when face you know the evidence the courts face with the evidence presumably in the case of your friends would be taking photographs hundreds of photographs to show that they were covering that election you know whether the courts will see that there's enough evidence.

Freedom exactly I mean when they were in interrogated apparently.

They were asked questions like why were you there and I'm considering this was a major news events event and you join the list would be there at especially a photographer who needs to be there to take they are you no pictures of what's happening on the ground.

So they were actually treated as activists rather than journalists was the impression of the lawyers at least but I mean these are detained journalists.

They will they are in custody hopefully they will be released pending trial and maybe metacritic immediately but they have another mistreatment of journalists on the ground while covering these protests over the last week some have been beaten there are photographs of them circulated on social media with boost faces camera man for instance working for a Russian

There's a video if my lease shared and he can't even open his eyes because of the pegassi was exposed to and he was saying things like 6 or 7 police attacked and beaten kicked him while he was on the ground along with others of course organisations are these events but these happened in Turkey at the moment unfortunately the treatment of individual journalist by the police.

What about the broader media landscape is the regulator trying to influence what broadcasters and websites and different news organisations are doing well in Turkey the States has a TV channel cit and there's an international broadcaster trt world and there's a state news agency on a dodo news agency, but indirectly the state the government controls.

Present of the media landscape because the individuals or the companies that own these on these papers are TV channels.

They are aligned with the government indirectly at home paper.

We have only just ate channels, but otherwise actually we can say that the government is controlling 90% although there are alternative channels 10% which are Critical or which are aligned with the opposition, but they face legal cases and censorship from time to time and what about you because I know we've spoken before about the pressure the you another BBC colleagues have come under in your reporting of Turkey how is the situation been in the last few days as you and colleagues.

Go about your work.

What's happening today is very innocent of what happened.

It's and I believe you're talking about the time then and I was covering the rides then and I was singled out because of my coverage by a certain government officials and an English spy and the prime minister who was the Prime Minister then now he's the president and the add-on said I was concentrating conspiring against my country and he made a speech at the Parliament so I was I was the target of a serious online Lynch which wasn't then so coming and unfortunately I received thousands of death threats by then what we see at the moment is very similar to that the maybe only difference is how we got used to harassment and intimidation online you had to experience that but thank you very much indeed for coming in and explaining both your experience and the experience of many other journalists in Turkey is it go for this week? Thank you.

All I guess and indeed everyone for listening good.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.