Read this: Reporting the LA Fires, AI Michael Parkinson, US TikTok ban approaches

If we listen to this BBC podcast I like to quickly tell you about some mothers my name's Andy Martin and I'm the editor of a team of podcast Producers at the BBC in Northern Ireland is it I really love because we get to tell the story that really matter to people here but which also resonate and apply to listeners around the world and because it's such a diverse range of skills and strengths with trained analysts people who love digging three archives we could drama and even comedy experts.

We really can do those stories Justice so if you like this podcast head to BBC signs for you'll find plenty more fascinating stories from all around the UK BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4.

I'm flying so low today is Katie is away this week in the next hour will update you on the possibility of tiktok being banned in the US this Sunday is the day.

Who talks to reporters in Los Angeles about the challenges of covering the fires there we are also going to talk about the BBC future and in particular one idea that starting to get some attention.

It's called realisation will explain what it is, and why some people think it's a good idea and with the help of Caroline Frost columnist with the radio times we can assist the TV viewing data for Christmas to see what it tells us about what we all want to watch and cannot hear in the media show Studio with the airline hello and we'll talk about the TV ratings later on that first.

We'll talk about match of the day though because the be confirmed but a few people had suggested was going to happen which is the duty the presenting duties of Match of the Day we'll go to Gabby Logan Mark Chapman and Kelly cates from next season.

I think this is what they call an SP oh, I'm not just one safe pair of hands, but three pairs because they clearly hedge their bets.

They've rewarded internally for men.

Of Tyler service in the cases of Gabby and Mark and of course everybody knows Kelly so she's she's the new blood I think they probably couldn't have done anything else with the few that show coming over near I know there's a new head of Sport wanting to make his Mark I'm hoping that as well as these three who are very familiar to football fans that they will also perhaps chained up a little bit of format.

I've been investigating football quite recently a bit of a latecomer.

Nothing worse than arrivas to the game and I know that there are all sorts of young passionate fans doing wonderful things on YouTube and social media and very nice.

I hope that this song waving bracing a little bit of new blood as well as this very familiar territory hosting but nonetheless Match of the Day is ratings of remain very solid in the last few years when some programs have not fared so well, so you can understand that's why the BBC would want safe pairs of hands.

They don't change it too much.

We know that already don't mess I mean we saw when was it about.

Is it going now that in fact no host at all didn't actually dents the ratings on that one day when everybody boycotted.

So yes, I think what we know is that football and sports in general is one of the endangered species of collect enjoyed audiences and then as long as the BBC in the position to bring those highlights people will TuneIn I think it's now Mark and Gabi and Kelly's job to mess up.

I think everybody will wish them well, nobody wants to see Match of the Day career in of course.

Thank you very much on that subject so Gabby Logan Mark Chapman and Carry cage taking over on Match Of The Day from next season of course Gary Lineker still has her a few months left with this season still very much in the middle of the game so will be seeing when I screens on Match of the Day on Saturday nights for a few months for the Three presenters will replace him.

We're gonna go to Los Angeles all of you will have seen the fires that swept through parts of the city and unfortunately they're not over high winds risk further spreading those fires and how to cover.

Listen folding disaster as posed ethical and practical challenges for reporters and we're gonna talk to two of them first of all Jonathan Hunt Fox news correspondent to is Withers Jonathan personal just tell us where you're speaking to us from please the headquarters of the entire response across the whole of the la region 3200 personnel from Los Angeles fire department to see one of their command trucks behind the Los Angeles sheriff's department office of emergency management services of course so they're running everything from here and were in the parking.

Lot of the Iconic Rose Bowl in Pasadena normally this would spoil of the vehicles bringing 90000 people to watch a game football game American football results but today it is just full of these kind of trailers UCB

And a huge operation being run and of course the priority of those people working at the command centre is to contain the fires and help those affected by the fires, but they also are dealing with you and many other reporters.

What's the media operation like at the command centre very much all about the response the only Media organisation being allowed inside the unified command centre itself.

There are the lullaby the cameras on the edge of this property but at the lhc sheriff's department as I actually allowed us to be inside our to get a first-hand look at it today.

So it's really fascinating when you listen to these guys here.

We've been been able to get into three things are well.

They're being told what how the fire is going to behave today or information that they don't share with the public normally.

I so it's really a fascinating glimpse into just that.

These guys are these men and women in would be on the front line spacing everyday also interesting to get an up-close look into these people on the front line.

Who are let's put it this way less than happy with the leadership in some cases, are the Dave had our during this unprecedented disaster, so you've got some extraordinary access there at the command centre.

I wonder how you negotiated that and why you think those in charge of it agreed to letting you listening on some of these conversations.

We we have some very good contacts are produced as I won't take credit for that myself, but one of our producers and has very good contacts with the sheriff's department.

They were happy.

You know Dave the berries emergency services have faced or some criticism nobody criticises the people on the front lines during the work trying to say.

I'm trying to say phones, but there has been criticism my after leadership and I think they want I imagine what was that? I was privy to the conversations obviously at the top of the department by Imagine that they wanted to reassure the people of LA and you know across the globe but they are doing everything they can whatever that decision was indeed immediate start a run up to the devastating fires whatever the decisions are made on that first date since then that they have become as this is the title of this by says European command and they're really doing the best.

I think that I'm actually that is what they want the world to see at the moment then Jonathon your focus for Fox News viewers and listeners on happening at that command centre, but I know that you've also been covering the fires more closely more close up as well.

I wonder if those first few hours and days as the fires began to.

How are you and your Fox News colleagues calculated where you would report from and how you would stay safe while at the same time informing your audience the first six of the fire up in the power in the Pacific palisades and you know what I would say is the organisations to hear very very good with the safety.

They give us all the gear.

We need the full fire suits and we obviously everybody is encouraged to wear all of that because you walk around dinner in a fire like that and you don't have anything that on your head princess.

You're not even wearing the one member in your hair then suddenly trying to put out that out with their hands and you're getting badly hurt, so they're very big on making.

We have all the gear we need and then it's the the bosses running things that are very good as well at leaving offers individual crew myself used to them with the the cameraman that rhyme with to make our own decisions based on safety.

It's not something you can second-guess in the moment from you know whether it's in La whether it in New York in your case, whether it is your weather in London you have to leave it to the people on the ground to make those minute-by-minute decisions themselves in the company is not allowing us to do that and then it's a question of experience.

You know unfortunately we've been through a lot of these kind of things and we have a decent idea of where to go and went to be well, though.

I have to see this was a fire on a nature of which I don't think any of us has ever seen before my wife is also reported here with the local fox to Fillion

She was driving at the palisades on Tuesday night finishing her shift and two driving along the Iconic Sunset Boulevard and suddenly planes and it was she called it all on her DashCam coming from your side of the road and I can tell you just watching that I had a panic attack.

Just watching it been through that and she was absolutely terrible when you see a video like that with flames coming from both sides.

It's an extraordinary thing and I didn't really Dangerous Thing thank god.

She got it sounds absolutely fine bus to be in and to watch new mention.

That is one personal aspect of your experience of covering these fires.

I understand it part of your reporting is actually been from your local can see I wonder how that personal dimension is affected how you've got about the story because you are personally affected.

Any way shape or form to the extent that so many hundreds thousands of families have been affected the charter High School my daughter attend 17-year old at that high school that has been probably around 30 to 40% of it burnt down.

They are not going to be able to get back into that school for a long time 17-year old was one of those who struggled with remote learning a little bit struggle from the social aspect it affected her during covid and has suddenly she's back to remote learning know I have worried about her, but that is such a minimal thing and what year wild well.

We mentioned that on the focus has to be those people who have lost everything and Benny many friends at school who have lost their homes lost absolutely everything so my my personal connections are it is in a text me but

Nothing like the suffering that so many people are going for a nap have to remain a major Focus we wish you your family and your community well.

Thank you very much indeed for make time for us in the middle of a very busy reporting day.

That's Jonathan Hunt Fox news correspondent who was with us from the unified command centre in Pasadena turn Let's Stay in bringing my BBC News colleague Emma Vardy who's the BBC's la correspondent many of you listening will have seen and heard Emma on the news in the last week or so in particular Emma I'm turning on the right the television in The Newsroom a few days back and seeing you wearing lots of protective equipment as you reported on.

I think it was the 6:00 news.

Just tell us about your preparations as you went in doing live reporting in those kind of situations.

I mean the first 24-hours of the fire was just extraordinary because that the flames are right in front of us the smoke was so thick it was blocking you could barely see anything in the middle of the day and so the goggles were absolutely necessary because Rise was singing of course the flame retardant suits you mention we were taking precautions of carrot.

You know we were coming into a situation making those calculations looking at where the emergency services wear but couldn't documented this is closely and witness what we witnessed without getting you know with risk in mind somewhat close to it, and I'm those early days the fires were just extraordinary.

Just everywhere and you could find yourself in The Thick of It very very quickly so that's what you would have seen it was very intense the wind was blowing towards.

I've never experienced anything like it and with a very.

Producer improve done lots and lots of fires so I had the benefit of that as well and we all work together and make those decisions bit by bit but and Incredibly intense experience and I can see you as you talk to me Emma on a video fee but of course lots of people are listening to us.

Just describe where you are because behind you I can see a scene of absolute devastation.

It is I'm in the Pacific palisades are overlooking the ocean and we're some way back from the ocean but as far as the eye can see there is absolute devastation all around me this would have been buying real estate.

Just imagine the beautiful homes.

That would have been here with that view of the sea all now absolutely devastated and the wind blows so hard as first couple of days.

You can see how quickly the fight between here and the water and now just the shells remain and you don't women driving through miles and miles of this devastation today and how do you judge? You arrive at a story such as this where the emergency services are present where people directly affected our present and you are doing your work as a journalist.

How do you judge when to approach people affected or people working to contain the fire and when not to?

Yeah, it's like Jonathan said it you know it's a minute by minute decision you can tell you know firefighters go through moments of intensity and moment when you can see that there are able to sort of relax a bit too and you can politely sometimes call-out.

How's it going? You know it's not an official interview request but it feels right in that moment sometimes you can see they're all ready for saying hi and being quite friendly you can find a check in and get the Bible sometimes they help but happy to give you advice as I got this road.

How's it looking up that road? And then everybody sharing information to keep people safe as well cos I don't want to put ourselves in situations where we needing to the rescue.

So people already talking to each other.

There's a feeling that everybody is kind of in this situation doing different jobs, but for dinner together somewhat.

So you gotta just make where is really polite and we don't worry if you're busy you know we are you know the questions with the camera rolling in a sensitive situation.

If somebody doesn't want to talk but

You get a feel for it when you've been in situations like this when emotions are very high people are dealing with really emotional situations and sometimes in that moment people really want to talk because they want to tell you what they're going through.

They want other people to see it and feel it and then you get that sense from them and then you feel that he's in shock or really rude ever say to the god of duty of care to but I think also people do have the right in a situation to tell the world what they're going through what they're experiencing so that it comes up I warn others of the danger or just communicate what human beings are going through this incredible situation, so is a judgement call.

You know you can you get a feel for people when you do this job when you speak to a lot of people in The Very intense situations and the broadcasting on the television and on the radio as well as reporting on the BBC website to British audiences.

Just as you are now.

I wonder if there are particular aspects to this disaster that.

You think I need to get this across to people who aren't in this country that this is how it is.

Yeah, I mean couple of things really struggling here that wouldn't be that surprising to do the ironing to the people in the UK particularly when there were lots of bullets on the floor exploding bullets people have in America at home and therefore a fire it got hot and exploded and we've seen the remnants of the weather in Dover the street.

That was surprising to me.

You know I'm from the UK not so remarkable in America something I wanted to communicate also private firefighters you got very private firefighters with cost thousands and thousands a day stationed outside certain homes care homes facilities of burnt down that's able to meet to be in America very capitalist Society you say will cause if you got the money you pay for it.

You know that may be a little more accepted here although you know people have started to raise questions about the

Play some more controversial culture difference between the UK and the American sort of society that always strikes me when I'm talking to a British audience that compared to when I talk to my American college for the some of that as well and also just a place like la a place like no other world famous experience the disparity between rich and poor here is huge and so watching extremely rich places that you might think I was being touchable also being destroyed in this fire.

It's just something we just have never really seen before and that's extraordinary to stop being we've been communicating you not to take away from each other if you've lost their homes absolutely but it is striking to see when you see a bunch of celebrities involved in a disaster like this.

There's a lot of things to communicate hear that are unique to LA and then you won't see anywhere else.

Emma thank you very much indeed for taking us through your experiences of the last few days the BBC's Emma Vardy we can hear the wind on a microphone and she's talking to us before that we heard from Jonathan from Fox News many thanks.

Jonathon and to Emma well to analyse the media coverage of these fires.

We're not going to talk to Alison accident director of the University of Southern california's centre for climate journalism and communication Alison thank you very much for your time.

I wonder what your assessment has been of the media coverage of the story well because of my roll.

I'm thinking a lot about climate change and whether or not it's been communicated with the Spires and so far.

I feel it's been pretty strongly and the reporter and the reported rather inside of my analysis and finding that in a selection of 5 outlets.

I looked at all of them, but one were mentioned in climate changing less than 10% of.

Spell lion outlet that really should differences perhaps not surprising to you in the UK the Guardian but when you look at these different outlets and some covering climate change as much as you feel would be appropriate.

Do you understand that in the immediate hours and days of a story like this? There is a human agency which means it's those human experience the immediate human experiences that the get covered more than the macro issues that may connect to the story is providing information to the community it needs and what they need to know first isn't the climate change underpin this catastrophe.

It take us the virus to their home.

Where do they go? Where can I get resources? So we are seeing indeed and the connection between climate change and the Spires as the story continues to go on but I think I understand your son and I agree with you.

What would you like news?

To be doing that it's not doing at the moment when it's covering a story like this climate change when we talk about the cause of Spyro speakers increasingly people are asking what caused the expires.

I think you need anybody including me so that climate change is the cause of these fires in Los Angeles but certainly they said the stage.

What is the backdrop for this catastrophe this disaster has exploded to this degree because of conditions here.

They are related to the effects of climate change when they're talking about the cars.

Maybe we don't know yet.

We don't know what ignited this further.

We can tell you as that climate change is definitely involved to some degree.

I know that you've been conducting an experiment on your street, which sadly has been affected by these fires.

Just tell us about that sure I was evacuated.

Can set fire last weekend one house Dion from the perimeter of the fire and we're very very fortunate because of wind conditions to be able to come back for home last week before I was pleased akamai straight out marched around in the local news cruising area top three of them.

I asked you.

How are you covering climate? Are you including it and the local Cruise how to change that's interesting angle.

I be happy to talk to you about it another one said and this is the one that scared me the most.

I'm not sure how my news director feels about me talking about climate change and the third outlet a big traffic news outlet from Germany says climate change of course.

We just talked about it and I last left it would be interesting to hear from that news director would I don't suppose that was a possibility in that moment Alison stay with us, please listening to this is Caroline Frost economist for the radio Times Caroline climate change as one dimension of the story another is Celebrity and Vardy

Alluded to that earlier.

Have you been comfortable with the degree to which celebrities caught up in this disaster have attracted coverage? I wouldn't say comfortable but say I'm surprised.

I mean just historically.

We've always been very West centric with high coverage of disaster across the globe and as Emma pointed out the juxtaposition between rich is the luxurious nurse the glamour of the setting and the suffering that some of these people are going through wood and that is without taking away as Emma rightly pointed out the celebrity tiny proportion of these people affected however we have homes in on them as we always do I mean when I see somebody like Paris Hilton moaning her Malibu home droid do you think that somebody like parasols and probably has a hotel or two to go to so it's unseemly but all we can do is report noting that she lost her house.

She was and as all of them are I mean they are suffering as much as we are so many things in life.

It's things are great Levellers on paid external internal design does illness tragedy these other things that make us human these people I have always been written large on our screens.

I don't think it takes away from the story.

It's probably getting a lot more attention than it.

Would where they not there, but I think we have to proceed with care as reported that we don't somehow ascribed to them more capacity for suffering and that it's somehow worse tragedy than other things going on has it surprised you in the UK the degree to which it's been the lead story not just when the fires began but for a number of days in a row.

I think it's that it's kind of really because so many names keep coming forward certainly in the entertainment section of the newspaper which has been nose gets bigger every year but in terms of names coming forward.

It's so spread out.

Was I was saying I just you know the luxurious just sections of the community this isn't even la this is Pacific palisades.

This is Malibu this is proper American dream, and we're not just seeing the death of the carbonization of it in front of our eyes, but the reason is receiving so much coverage isn't only because celebrities are caught up and this is only because the areas affected in some cases wealthy is also because this is a story which connects to macro issues that affect all of us including as we've been discussing climate change environmental you have social disparity.

We have changed the Invention of social structure.

We have political decisions.

We have leaders being questioned and held to account.

I mean it probably is a story in many many crosshairs, and I can't see it.

I think there's a reason I think it deserves to be at the top of the news because it's into you just said I'm an entertainment prize money, but I can't think of any correspondence who wouldn't have an angle to take on a story of this day of this structure.

Distance from the annenberg center for climate journalism and communication you've talked to us about how you wish climate change featured more in the coverage, but I wonder if you stand back and compare the coverage of these is an la with how the news media might have covered the story 5 or 10 years ago dually see a development in the sophistication with which news media is connecting climate change the stories.

It's covering clothes when you're covering this story for your community.

You're coming out for the people on the ground and maybe you're not getting into bed, but overall there's a huge advance even in the US certainly in the I just had a study yesterday that virtually all opinion pieces that are anti climate in the EU media are gone they don't exist anymore in your opinion pages.

As we're watching the rate of people who believe that climate change is real and happening now.

He knows reads.

Just delete it out.

Thank you for joining us to do that's Alison accident from the annenberg center for climate journalism and communication.

We're also talking with Caroline Frost and entertainment journalist and columnist with the radio Times Caroline you're still with us and we're not going to talk about the Christmas television ratings which I'm sure you've been to in the last few days because these ratings perhaps more than any others.

I don't know if that's a stretch give us clues as to the direction of travel for the for the TV industry.

Did you have any immediate react when they arrive when it was a great day for the BBC schedulers mean I hate to to salute everybody in this building from inside the tent but credit where credit is due.

It was a gathering of hits.

It wasn't just a one-off everybody talking about the Gavin and Stacey audience remarkable there it is but it wasn't that alone.

It was more a collection of events and I think it was all the more remarkable.

Because they pulled off a top 10 a full house.

I mean other channels just put their toys down and went away for one day only not so happy for Coronation Street it was beaten by the The Weakest Link and the news on ITV as well you surprised by that well.

I think that they realised as I say that other channels didn't really have a hope.

It's a case.

I felt that schedule as well like are two controllers all football managers.

They have to decide where to put their cash and perhaps Christmas day, wasn't the day to do that and suspend valuable hard-earned money that they as we are seeing and reading that they are having trouble allocating but with regards to Coronation Street was that simply a decision made by the schedule is on Christmas day, or is what we saw the Coronation Street Christmas symptomatic of Broadchurch ITV in that particular, so I think that's fair.

I think that the BBC schedule each program was the beneficiary of being part of a team of great players of have.

Having a built-up audience through the day so come for strictly Stacey EastEnders come through EastEnders stay for Doctor Who accept right until Gavin and Stacey is your is your great desert ITV have anything like that even though it had the departure of Helen Worth after 50 years.

I mean I I felt sorry when I saw that her big farewell wasn't given more of an audience and always have any trail wasn't a lot of investment into that but equally over on the other side.

There was a lot of investment into hype and promise of was going to go on in EastEnders people might be surprised to hear you talk about portents of the schedule because in the year where we can just select or Coronation Street or whatever program it might be whenever we want on Christmas day.

You're saying actually these big numbers are connected to the scheduling and saying for one day one day only ok.

There's a little bit of compromised.

I think we've prepared to put down on are iPads and iPhones and I'll solitudes and to venture into the living room.

Compromise a little you mentioned EastEnders so I suppose that leads me to abroad a thought which is are soaps weather at Christmas or elsewhere in the year able to pull audiences in a way that makes them competitive in the coming years very perilous and I worry not just because I care what happens in any of each of those soaps but because of the production ecosystem that they support because the the training ground so somebody like Sally Wainwright and her colours on Coronation Street Sarah Phelps Agatha Christie writer and so as many other things she learnt her trade on EastEnders so sorry.

No, happy Valley is how it works and it's also local mini economy with seen the end of doctors up in the Midlands we've seen that these soaps are perilous and then we've got the higher production costs with small audiences in ITV's case we have lower advertising revenue.

I mean this is Chewbacca holding a bending bar against Many Walls that's one way of putting in use the word perilous, but as you use the word.

I'm looking at Coronation Street ratings for the whole of 2024 average 4.4 million viewers.

That's come to be the UK's most watched so last Monday night and episode about night-time which was very well reviewed peaked at 3.9 billion million viewers that to me sounds healthy rather than perolas.

It's an Optics challenge because you are absolutely right healthy figures even compared with something like the traitors phenomenon which is 5 million which isn't that much more and that's being face as the great new thing what they do is they compared it with Angie and den and some 19884 causes social media because of different fragments audiences what I mean.

I don't know about you, but when I look at the film I used to think all I hope it's 95 minutes max and I look at the TV series and I think tell me how many episodes I have.

No, it's soaps.

It's an infinite number and that isn't as palatable in this day of attention deficit and distraction so we look at something like reality TV and we'll see selling sunset always the Real Housewives ask us of the same investment in terms of personality and character and caring but they also support that with real life people social media interactions merchandise in all these wonderful thing and so I think soaps do have a battle on their hands even though it's so important for the ecosystem off-screen as I said but also it's a real place where not just some middle class kitchen island drama gets told pension traitors and you were also talking about scheduling and I'm going to put those Towers together because it seems to me the BBC strategy with when it releases episodes of traces is relatively complex compared with house scheduling work the few years back that bring them out in blocks of 3 Wednesday Thursday Friday and then everyone has to wait another 4 days before you get any more but when the series started as I remember they released I think 2 or maybe 3:00.

In one go so they've got a number of different plans for different stages of the series positively Byzantine I think they're trying to have their cake and eat it so they get the drop and you do have enough if somebody like me and you try not to watch too much TV during the week apart from that.

He likes yes my treat I watch at the weekend so somebody who unlike me likes teddies a tree might save them are equally there is a linear program to go and watch collectively so you're not going to be spoilt many people don't spoil it.

Well.

I'm sorry the onus is on you to watch the program and stay off social media.

I would say I'm quite a lot of time on social media because of my job following the news but of course everything gets jumbled up on social media if you follow traitors and you haven't seen the most recent episode it is difficult to go onto social media without having spoilers flying that's always very much my problem rather than anyone else.

That's the sign of the hit show when that's when that she'll be scary.

You know when they're worrying about people spoiling it for people.

That's always a good.

And I want to ask you one more thing about the format of traitors because your colleague David Craig in the radio Times said one crucial flaw this year the cast of study the show way too hard with that but the broader point stands doesn't this formats become well-known the contestants go into them surely in a different way to when a format is new course.

We seen it over and over again.

We saw this with Big Brother we seen this with Love Island this is when shows become victims of their own success.

This is when some angenieux abroad becomes a very seasoned traveller.

This is the fortunately the great cost of success and it means they will completely have to innovate to keep it fresh because he has everybody is becoming very cynical about the cynicism that they are watching.

Thank you very much do next on the media.

Show we're going to talk about how the BBC is funded and how it's run needless to say not the first time.

We've done this on the program.

It's certainly won't be the last because

Licence fee settlement runs until the end of 2027 and the process of what's called charter renewal for the BBC begins in Earnest this year now you might have seen some reporting in the times at the weekend, but Rosamund Urwin and Caroline Wheeler they say they spoke to 30 sources and writing about culture secretary Lisa Nandy they wrote the Sunday Times can reveal that favoured option is to abolish the licence fee and she's even looked at paying for the BBC through general taxation at the same time she wants to turn the BBC into a mutual organisation Direct control and ownership to the public to ideas their funding potentially through general taxation rather than to a licence fee and then what's known as mutually that would change how the BBC is run.

Let's unpack that idea at first of all with the help of Tom Mills chair of the media reform coalition which campaigns for a more democratic and accountable.

Media Tom thank you for joining is that start right at the beginning? What does neutralisation mean for an organisation while straightforwardly? It means that the organisations owned by the members for example shareholders, but usually has a more substantive meaning which the members have power within the organisation that was useful reported that the Department of business innovation and skills as it was but now it was about neutralisation as a form of ownership and they use the phrase which we picked up on in the report that we are producing on this active and Direct participation in the organisation.

So it means you have members and are actively involved in the organisation, so let's play this out lots of people listening to us right now on Radio 4 and they think ok the BBC if it's neutralise, how would become a member how would I own part of the BBC my proposal will be straight-forward if you listen to BBC now and then you're in the UK you would be a member of the BBC you have to be a member though.

You automatically become a member in the same way as you automatically have a right to vote that's what we proposed.

So there's two different ways to do this Friday and it comes back to your question about funding the BBC could become an organisation could use to join or if it's offering a universal service and if it's funded by General taxation which everybody has to pay then everyone can become members of the BBC and that would be my preferred the opposite the meat reform coalition.

What about the people don't want to be a member of the BBC to be an active member of the BBC participation would be voluntary.

You don't have to go to Poland devote have to be part of the electorate.

Is that what Lisa Nandy wants to do or is that your version of neutralisation in terms of what he wants.

I mean.

I've not spoken to Lisa Nandy or 18 hopefully in the next month or two but we can just go on what her public statements has been so that there was a story in the Sunday Times that you mentioned but also she actually mention this in the course of the Labour leadership.

So it's something which is being committed to providing what she said they're definitely afford with the idea of active participation director station because what you said, where's moving sigil making away from Westminster and Whitehall and being placed in the hands of members keep playing this out then and everyone in the country is a member and there in courage to directly participate.

What does that participation involve by Mike Oldfield on his really the expert on these issues, my background is in the government governance and the Politics of the BBC they didn't think you could do you could as a mess be able to direct a certain amount of resources towards particular areas that you want to be supported within the organisation with it within any of it some areas of activity, but the thing that we focused on in terms of like that.

Governance to use that term is these bodies panels made up of members which would then be before my lot so in other words you would have used within the BBC which are populated by the membership in the same way as you would have in a jury in a in a court, but how do you get around the fact that someone who is inclined to be supportive towards the BBC might be more inclined to take part in one of those panels and someone who doesn't like the BBC is an institution and wasn't gonna give any time whatsoever in their lives towards helping it do 13 unlikely that somebody who forever reason doesn't like the BBC wouldn't want to spend the panel.

Everybody has would have the right to do it the BBC is supposed to represent is already have the right to do it is about whether people would choose to do it.

They would think this is a you and white in the same class 4 where to spend my time.

Why do you think that someone let's say somebody who were imagining like has issues with the BBC they don't like the way to report certain issues.

They think.

Certain stories, let's say they're a bit hostile.

Why would that be a reason for them to not want to go and exercise influence within the organisation? I don't think it makes sense.

So you have a panel you gather together arrange lots of animals with a range of people from all over the country.

They're all commenting and having thoughts on different aspects of how the BBC operate.

How is that then translated into action by the BBC channels have the means to tell the BBC what to do to do it wouldn't be like a question about panels like micromanaging particular programs or anything like that, but will definitely want to performance or directed function in terms of informing the BBC's reporting and the BBC used to do this actually a slightly different mechanisms.

Are you sad these things called an audience cancels their appointed by the board of governors as it was then but they were large bodies which would then after the fact then report back at on particular areas and generally on the BBC's report it was a

Whereby the BBC could be democratically accountable towards the people that represents we want to try and replicate that I think for the contemporary period and for the digital era, so if this happened if the BBC became it was neutralised.

Yeah.

That's a separate issue to how it's funded.

You could have that utilisation and remain with the licence for you could change funding model and not utilise the other things are separate but step back from there a BBC which was basically accountable directly to its membership rather than the other mechanisms accountability which perhaps we can come to you would have a different kind of Culture now the BBC at the moment.

There are these various forms of like explicit or so of subtle ways in which the BBC's culture? Is is shaped by politicians really know the theory here is the Parliament sovereign and it's the government democratically elected the

Points members of the BBC board issues that starter and it's a waste licence so these of always been mechanisms of accountability the ultimate accountability like in the series the public in practice.

We know for a historical studies the actually governments have been able to exact while of influence for his mechanisms and that's why they connect it.

What are the BBC would say it plenty of checks and balances in place to make sure that cannot be exerted of course it would say that but we know that from late from the archive that this is at the house that she had an effect from the radio Times the Range how do you persuade by the idea of neutralisation Christmas day? I mean I guess in theory but as usual it depends on who you get does you've got all the other versions and if that can sit alongside accountability isn't a bad thing but this word ownership and does that mean I get a parking space at broadcast it does mean when you have the same.

You have to spend the same probability of you been first what you could could exercising direct direct control, but that's the same likelihood of you join one of those pals intensive like who you get I mean.

Yes, there'll be there will be did you do this through light representational qualified to be on that panel.

Which is why when you have a panel.

They had to be said 7.4 timer need to be informed by experts and by the BBC so don't think this is like it's my polling rate.

So what what you call Mike goddesses like that would be like deliberative polling right here on ask people a question you get together members of the public safety issues together collectively.

They are able to interact with experts and then come to a considered you and you don't have any concern that this would be a bureaucratic nightmare it requires a lot of patient and I don't that might be an understatement.

No not necessarily.

There's lots and lots of balls exist in the BBC today.

It would be quite a radical overhaul it would require a lot of attention to detail.

Quite a lot of political will to make it happen, but there's no there's absolutely no reason why it can't work and that's why we've that's why we produce this report which will be out next month detailing how it could work.

Thank you very much for coming in discussing.

It was Tom Mills chair of the media reform coalition Caroline Frost from the radio Times stay with us for a few minutes and Karen you are very clear with me before we came on here that you were talking about our next door which is about tiktok and now I'm not qualify for our panel Caroline is taking a breather for this item but we are going to talk about tiktok because this is another story another issue that we've been on the media show it's a plan man of tiktok in the US over national security concerns around Chinese influence on the app which in theory this ban comes into effect on Sunday the is in the process of considering an appeal against that a verdict is due imminently one other Factor which of course all of you listening or no Donald Trump becomes president on Monday and

The here poses the band but it may be in place before he assumes power will have to see let's bring in Lara O'Reilly senior correspondent for Business Insider she's going to help us out with this.

Thanks for joining us for people who haven't followed this saga.

Just help us understand why the authorities in the US would go as far as banning such a popular app tickets own bytedance which is a Chinese company and the US consider is China a political adversary the fear as you mentioned.

Just now is is a national security concerns basically tiktok could be forced by Beijing to hand over data on it's kind of 170 million which could include thing that government officials and spies and other important people are also that the Chinese government could somehow control tiktoks algorithm to seed certain messages or a propaganda this close to the ban in theory coming into.

Really know if it's going to go ahead or who will be in power when the ban arrives.

Yeah, it's quite frustrating covering that's because you're it's just constant whiplash, I'm sure it is not many consequences of this potential ban.

Approaching is that some users in the US are starting to look at alternative platforms and you'll know all about this Lara one Chinese app called RED know which has some of the same functionality as tiktok here are some videos that tiktok users have posted about this happening.

You really played yourself on this one and you have already found their next move if you like the first day of school kids and we don't know where anything is working overtime to translate everything over the English and their welcoming us, so don't underestimate.

There's a few thoughts being posted on tiktok in particular about red no no lorry just help with a remarkably red notice has become the most downloaded free app in app store in the US what is it and how is it different from tiktok and Instagram with a few more shopping.

It's been around for a little while and is used by around about 200 million users mostly not English language uses most of the most mostly in the most of the language you saying there is is Chinese with now starting to see as you say a flock of us, so organised Western uses the celebrities on there.

No, I'm not sure whether they are the genuine genuine or not, but it seems Selena Gomez with a verified check Mark

Popular at the moment in the US is owned by bytedance who remembers tiktok sauna that's number to laminates which is my Pinterest and then number three is kind of a tiktok clone really out of Texas called clapper differences is that it's only for users over 17 doesn't have any ads on the live elements present in the app store and not the apps that you expect to see at the top with that perhaps highlights Lara that even if this band goes ahead and it's Justified for the reasons that we may find for security concerns.

It doesn't necessarily resolve the broader issue of American surnames concerned about Chinese technology and different forms being very popular with Americans presumably they don't know if it's ban come into effect well.

I'll tiktok bytedance written into law that would pick up lemonade then presumably some of these are the wraps.

Well, I think you know the real reason for this for this surges.

I think a bit of a tongue-in-cheek protests against the divestiture banlaw bit of retaliation and the US government so it took 50 g or #tiktok refugee is trending on most these platforms right now.

There are also practical Reasons to be influential and love you a lot of money either through the shop or through content creation and influencing on the platform, but a lot of people can put all your eggs in one basket any kind of shows that you need to have diversified and concern re a plan for some of these situations afraid, so blue sky and you build a quick following it actually has a network effect because then when you use a sign up the platforms often recommend these people who posted that is regularly and with large followings.

Thanks for your help on the story.

That's Laura O'Reilly senior correspondent with Business Insider I'm sitting here.

It is a reporting that tiktok plans to shut off.

It's out for us users on Sunday if this band comes into this is also reporting tiktok plans to keep paying it's us employees others believe it could remain active that's the app that would gradually stopped working because the software couldn't be updated so there are a number of questions against the story the biggest one of all being what will the Supreme Court of the US decide and we think we'll find out sooner rather than later now finally on this week's edition of the media show I wonder if you recognise this voice.

I very much expect you will it seems like the evolution of your career and personal life has been intertwined with overcoming challenges and uncertainties are reflecting back to your early years.

Did you experience particular insecurities that shaped how you approach your life and career.

Polo trials and tribulations I mean not every couple of years is always something.

No, it's not it's Sunday night comes up well, but of course at the beginning with the voice of the late Michael Parkinson as you may have noticed that's not from the archives.

It's part of a new AI podcast series called virtually Parkinson at we hear gas being interviewed such as the US singer Jason Derulo who we had their man the gardener Monty Don Benjamin field is the producer of the podcast Bedwyn welcome to the media show how did this come about? Hi? Yes, it happened after Michael Parkinson so Michael son got in touch with us to see whether or not we could do with some kind of archive show which had an AA navigation of sir Michael introduced to the archival clips and things and that conversation escalated after that somebody would actually have to pay for that and that perhaps you know.

There wasn't there the right ecosystem at the moment within the media industry to buy into that and so we moved towards the idea of saying well actually we probably get it away.

We can get it funded it if it was that there was an AI version of some Michael doing new interviews and at the time.

We should be in April what would be the point of that and so we left it.

We left alone and then I was making a project or something else entirely where I had to create an AI model of somebody else in order to then have a conversation with it with this AI model and that conversation I had was unlike any other sorry any other conversation I had before and so it's maybe there was something in this idea of exploring the relationship between AI and humans in in that sort of chat show fear the perhaps couldn't be done.

You know if it was purely United talking about it.

We had to do it where there was an AI host interviewing you people in and explore this new relationship.

What does it mean to be human be resolved to do it? I wonder how you went about it.

How does it work? How did you build the means to create This podcast series in isolation? There are still alive voice in size a shin and brains if you like to be created but there was no software that title the best thing to get so we couldn't have 4 months ago.

We couldn't have anything that allowed us to have a conversation without with an AI party if you like so we built some software and then we tested a round about 100 hours worth of Sir Michael Parkinson's material into the AI in order to train is an interview in style and we?

So that's the the Broad approach, but of course a head of any interview that I would be doing I would sit with the media show team.

They would provide me with a brief about the program.

We would about the guess we would talk about the kind of questions that we might want to ask much as we've done before speaking to you, but how do you do that for an AI presenter actually be similar so we have Briony Briony prepares research notes on the guest ahead of time and as possible software there is an element of the software by we can feed in research notes and a ice hockey is trained to go through those research notes and generate questions in the style of Michael Parkinson which then form the backbone comes out and on that issue with the generation of questions of course some questions and interviews are planned in advance others.

They are in response to what the interviewer is hearing and as you.

Not everyone's been entirely convinced the times of you said the question sounded rehearsed stilton overlong Monty Don who took part in this said it was less satisfactory and less interesting than I thought it was going to be there's no response to what you're saying at all.

There's just a pause and then another question.

What do you say in response to that? I think it is no point when we set this podcast startup did we say this is a podcast that was a chat.

Show what This podcast is always been is an explanation about the understanding between where AI is right now and and where it can be in the future.

What it means you know I'll be in a position to be able to generate a chat show host that is purely driven by AI and the end of each of our episodes.

We we Deacon the interview and we work out.

What was good.

What was bad and what we can improve on on next time so I think everybody will have an opinion on whether or not it's good bad rugby.

Caroline has an opinion on the field produces This podcast series caliper terrible is not the word you're going to reading for that.

Isn't it? No I wouldn't say terrible I applaud the noble pursuit and the brains are clearly been at work on this.

I do find it someone disingenuous if I'm allowed to go that far to say that at no time was a chat show planned and yet here we are with Michael Parkinson inverted commas Michael Parkinson I'm being very old fashioned.

I feel he belongs to an era of David Niven and Peter Ustinov and Jason robards, not Jason Derulo and we're just leaving for a moment Michael Parkinson someone could you imagine a scenario where in the future you listen to a conversation between an AI presenter in a guest and take pleasure from that no because I think that has its place that has its place when your try.

Perhaps by a parking permit or to buy pay your gas bill.

I don't think that has a place when we sitting talking and the conversation is endangered as it is I will leave it there.

Thank you very much for being with us.

Thanks to all of our guests thanks to those of you for listening to will be back next week.

Bye.