Read this: Uncovering the grooming gangs, Meta ditches fact checkers, Grand Theft Auto 6

Before you listen to this BBC podcast I like to quickly tell you about some mothers my name's Andy Martin and I'm the editor of a team of podcast Producers at the BBC in Northern Ireland is it I really love because we get to tell the story that really matter to people here but which also resonate and apply to listeners around the world and because it's such a diverse range of skills and strengths with trained analysts people who love digging three archives we could drama and even comedy experts.

We really can do those stories Justice so if you like this podcast head to BBC signs for you'll find plenty more fascinating stories from all around the UK BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 on the solution will look at metals decision to stop using fact-checkers for Instagram and Facebook in the US as more people get their news from social media broadcast journalist like

Might learn from the new generation of news influences on platforms like tiktok and building for Grand Theft Auto 6.

It's slated to come out in the autumn know there's some speculation around the day this game could be the media event of the year.

We're gonna find out why that you would have had to have been on Mars a place Elon Musk wants to get to to miss the Tech billionaire intervention in recent days on the issue of grooming gangs the ex owner uses her platform to accuse the prime minister when he was director of public prosecutions of enabling the horrific rape and abuse of mainly white girls I meant of mainly British Pakistani heritage also accused the Legacy Media of hiding those crimes for 20 years back in 2014 in Rotherham found at 1400 children's summer the others 11 have been groomed for sexual exploitation between 1997 and 2013 are the crimes of this nature also took place in.

Oxford Telford Oldham and other areas some victims have found Justice with perpetrators prosecuted and convicted but the torment of what took place and what money claim continues to take place has left the painful and ongoing Legacy and you will have had about some of that in the recent news coverage of this story, but is Elon Musk write to a not just corrupt politicians as he puts it but also the media Andrew Norfolk was one of the first journalist to report on grooming gangs and did so in depth for the times for years and I'm delighted with Andrew good afternoon going to ask you about Elon musk's views in a moment, but first if you will just take us back to the start for you where and how did you first come across the story.

I join the X in 2000 I came up to Yorkshire which was my roots my journalistic.

Reach my family roots in 2003 and in 2000 the very first time I heard anything to do with this was when and Cry Labour MP for Keighley raised concerns about what had happened to young teenage girls whose mothers have come asking her for help because those girls have been befriended and sucked into a quite horrific world that a daily naked for them from their families and ended up on the lives.

It was a quite extraordinary story the first.

I've heard of it and it was what I then came to know over subsequent years was the classic pattern of this kid crimewave that was putting down such deep roots in communities across the North and the Midlands to investigate.

I didn't my lasting regret.

It was such a difficult story to cover a initially I didn't know how much true that was in.

What was being claimed, but immediately the far right left on what was always has been extremely story.

It's a very simplistic picture to present of innocent young white girls and evil adult Muslim man and Nick Griffin against down in the 2005 general election through his stirring up hatred speech is he giving claiming that this was all part of some global Islamic plot to impregnate every white girl and us spread the calafat.

This is the first picture that was allowed to be generated and and went in to avoid because at the time the mainstream Media was either.

Ignorant of what was going on or choosing to look the other way because as became clear over the years not just the media institutions police forces local authority social witty scared to address the truth of what was happening.

So when did you and you decide not to look the other way if you like to actually really Delve into and when did you realise how big the story was I know the time decided to put you on it full-time under it's better to James Harding at some point in the summer of 2010.

I was driving back from a weekend in Edinburgh news live BBC 5 live on the radio report came over of a prosecution the just included in Manchester where 9 men have been convicted of horrific sexual offences against 14-year old girl that was the very first.

I knew of that place is existence the names of the man who's been convicted will not read out in the report and I sat in my car.

Weather North the uncomfortable feeling that even though I knew nothing about this place.

I probably need something about the identities of the man and I said when I get to myself when I get back to the office.

I need to check sure enough.

They were 9 Muslim names and that's what I asked the news editor for time off diary to research to see whether would I thought might be happening with true that turn into 4 months of research and eventually in January 2011 the first story in Holland the front page for pages and side revealed conspiracy of Silence on sex gangs and hugely controversially most identify the founders of Pakistani origin and everything exploded from that point on the Cameron government enquiry within days the 1st of August to be many enquiries both national and local over the years to come but we carried on writing because the editor of The Times decided.

Yeah, my full-time job that I was going to carry on the time.

She's going to carry on top of the stories about this until we were satisfied that every institution in Britain a bit of responsibility to protect children never institutional responsibility to prosecute offenders understood, what was happening at the knowledge, what was happening and had the systems in place the chocolate-covered the story of my life than you but I do remember being at a press conference with James Harding there you there where you from my memory you were facing a backlash from certain parts of the media and wider about your story is that is that how you recall it? It was it was perhaps inevitable but certain wrestling commentators and consistently laughing academic from day one accused US of A distorted agenda of making up facts of.

Ring to demonise, give me of racism accuse me of islamophobia.

That's continue right up to yesterday, and it was obviously deep comfortable but by then because I'd started meeting these young families of these girls in 4 years have been trying to draw attention to what was happening to get some children who are falling consistently on death is it was far too important to let it go and that's why we carried on writing about this the mainstream Media you couldn't get much more of a definition of mainstream media than the chief investigative reporter of the times and yet.

We carried on writing until finally Rotherham Council was Foster motoring independent enquiry in 2013 when you first started reaching out to the survivors the victims and their families.

I know of is you say.

They been ignored for so long and worse at the accusation by the police by the local council the journalist.

What was the reaction have difficult was it to get people to talk to you trust trust is a very difficult thing to establish when particularly young teenage girl has gone through the truly grotesque Horrors that these kids have been put through young teenagers who initially thought they were having adventure who fought in many cases that the first boy or young man who contacted them was a boy and then he found their lives completely out of control of a pudding cosplay with alcohol taking the houses parties and inverted commas and when the people that was the police officers social workers and consistently ignore them regarding them with content as well for teenagers who were doing it is a lifestyle choice.

How do you expect them to trust anybody and it was remarkable that some women found the strength to imagine the other side of this because many of them of them actually broken having been sexual toys in effect of these man to begin to build a relationship that became a very trusting relationship and enabled us to tell their stories is nobody ever has a bad word to say about you based on their experiences of you, but after you wrote that article you met Keir starmer that started this has caused the someone to have you met Keir starmer when he was a director of public prosecutions to talk about the issue and how Crown Prosecution Service guidelines were handprint prosecution.

They wanted from your perspective.

How are usual was it?

Journalist to meet the dpp in this way to talk about something like this is happening my career.

I was I've been working for 2 years on it, but not had been appointed chief crown prosecutor for North West England it was he to the taken the decision to overturn an earlier CPS decision not to prosecute the Rochdale grooming gang instituted that prosecution and I was asked to meet him and Keir starmer Keir starmer was wanting to talk through and hear my thoughts and it's at myself the weeks and weeks of criminal trials across the church about what what was Michigan mitigating against successful prosecutions and particular the guidelines that the timer in place and the prosecutors have to decide whether to approve and potential prosecution when a police force at midday file and the areas in in which the real.

Prospect of conviction was with deciding Factor to say no because this these girls are not gonna come across as reliable Witnesses for example the victim would never go back to the event of these kids invariably that Daddy we're going back in the early days for the offender.

Give a consistent account daymer out of their heads on alcohol and drugs after the track of what happened when and where was inadequate and just done a completely change the rules he has to choose a new set of guidelines that led to a significant increase in successful prosecutions across the country and what happened the storm of recent daisies quite frankly staggered me because is a distortion of been killed from the other side of the Atlantic with carelessness and English Country seems that the place to establishment has just jumped to attention.

Andrew is Rosie thank you very much indeed for being with us on the media show you just reference Nazir afzal who is Chief prosecutor for the north west england region from 2011 to 2015 and is he have Sally's joining us now on the programme while in the role of cell you said there is no getting away from the fact that there are Pakistani gangs grooming vulnerable girl.

We appreciate you joining us now to talk about this story.

I know it's your first interview on the subject since Elon musk's comments.

I wonder first of all what your recollections are of that thing with Andrew and with Keir starmer, but thank you very much for having me firstly whilst you're dealing with 100000 cases which the service was you don't understand.

You don't really have the ability to do so it was Andrew and the times articles in January 2011 that alerted me to the fact that these games existed.

In May of 2011 the authorised prosecution that reference we wouldn't be here today without the times and we wouldn't be like today without antibiotics work for 14 years and is absolutely appalling quite frankly that people have jumped on something that just happened yesterday organised your right to point out was unprecedented.

We we we didn't have meetings with the media to discuss my case work how we took my strategy and so I invited Andrew James Harding come and speak to me and Kia and it was a conversation where we said with Kitty got this wrong in the past and by the way, I mean every organisation social services children's services.

Local authorities and what can we learn from you Andrew from the times and hearing from him.

He's just a couple of examples of how we were failing because you we were playing the normal tests or sexual to the abnormal situations and these girls as quite rightly pointed out the most difficult they weren't difficult apology of these girls is the most difficult I come across in my 25 years of prosecuting because they they went back to their perpetrators.

They couldn't give you a consistent haven't heard all of that from from from James and we went away with changed everything changed the guidelines.

We brought in specialist be brought in the police bringing specialist investigated weehailes social services to account for that diligence we brought me and said it's unfair on these victims having to give evidence for 6 days and be cross-examined by 11 barristers that has it changed that it was an absolute change in the way these cases were going to be dealt with and and the fact that there are people in the last few days suggesting that that period was the 44 how we deal with these cases when it was the best period dramas.

There's Domino's there.

We are the highest conviction rate for tall section, please in British history.

I want to explore this sea change that you describe with you further but Andrew if I could bring.

Will you comfortable as a reporter sitting down and offering essentially advice and guidance Babs two people involved in the prosecution or the non-prosecution depending the decisions being taken all the cases that you were investigating is a highly unusual position for an agenda store for an additive to be in it was impressive actually reflected on the question.

I think by then I was horrified by what I had Sat through and witnessed at a year earlier at Stafford Crown Court one of the young girl who had initially been horrific be abused by 9 men in the dark.

She was a girl from Telford spent 12 days being cross-examined by one defence barrister after another who true that the most Darrell

Areas of her life reduced her 20-something rep time after time will have just sat and allowed it to happen before the trial eventually collapsed and there was so much wrong at the time with the system but both in terms of the rules that run place the understanding of this crime pattern and by then.

I would have spoken to anybody who listens to me about my thoughts on the subject and one of the people you spoke to you as we've been hearing was Nazir afzal and you may have seen the the comments by the writer and commentator Matthew in the last few days about the the coverage not just now but previously of the story and he's written the progressive Elite 2 controller parameters of what they think is our national debate routinely of scandals and issues that violate tightly controlled taboos around immigration multiculturalism diversity in all of its forms.

What do you make that analysis?

Nonsense tweets from Matthew Goodman from 2011-12 where he was would have been one of those people that were critical of I've got Andrew came up with so he is that weird institutions need to learn from their experiences there were enormous failures, but other types of harmful practises and it's we need to be open when did in reverse the decision I had to admit cpsr.

Got it wrong wrong.

I said I use that word over and over again and we were shocked to hear that.

It's only when you accept.

You done something wrong that you can actually put something right and so I totally accept that we were things that we could do that and things we should do better now, but I think those people jumping on that proverbial bandwagon.

Realise the impact of what they doing a week when I've been hearing from you come to me last few days to talk to me about her we triggered there been Harry traumatised there been bus can anybody else has been saying these people have no interest in them have never had them when it happened to them the victims of reconstructed their lives and their now having to deal with what happened to them 12:30 and 15 years ago again as it was yesterday at losing sleep.

I've got no services to go to and the fact that is the the carelessness more than the deliberate nature of what these individuals have been saying in the last few days has actually compounded a trauma that these girls have suffered in the past and I could change the sofa now.

There is no excuse for and we are of course talking about this day on the media show because of what you love my said about the media.

He claims they had it for 20 years.

We've been talking and depth about Andrews journalism.

Look at what else was happening back in the day so back in 2004.

There was a channel 4 documentary about planes that young white girls in Bradford were being groomed by ageing abuses that was delayed three months after the peace argued it couldn't flame racial tensions.

It was them broadcast the journalist Julie bindel says she was the first write a piece in a national newspaper about the Scandal that was for the Sunday Times magazine in 2007 rising in today's Sun newspaper.

She claims she first took the story of the Guardian but was told we will be called racist and the Guardian of the hunt able to confirm or deny that today in view of the passage of time some of also accused the BBC of ignoring the story we have found stories as far back as 2007 the video review of then keep the MP and cry who Andrews referencing earlier and her comments that you've been contacted by local mothers who said Asian men were targeting their underage daughter's Andrew you obviously started publishing your stories as you said in 20.

What is your sense then of whether musk is right when it comes to the media because it sounds as if potential even what you've described already.

He is the media in Broad formed ignore the story until a certain point because from 2011 and the subsequent years some soon as organisations sooner than later the BBC ended up doing some quite brilliant work on this subject and didn't shy away in the end from Judah squeamishness and sensitivities in the way that many institutions have done for many years and just a stress this poisonous mainstream Media that is supposedly covered up and be comfortable and he's crying for so long the leader of Rotherham Council giving evidence to home Affairs Select Committee after the enquiry have been ordered by they'd finally ordered and

And he said because the times wouldn't leave us alone.

That's the mainstream Media does the Legacy sometimes when a story is so sensitive and difficult that governments and local authorities and police forces away from it sometimes.

It's only the medium can tell those stories and that didn't make a difference to face the accusation that we covered everything is it is shameful and can I ask you both about how the media is covered this story in more recent years.

I know from looking at a report by Jake kanter in deadline has highlighted the the work of GB news reporter Charlie Peter's who told deadline that he is often the only reporter in local courtrooms.

When just as busy as being served to the perpetrators of abuse.

Do you have concerns have said that even if certain parts of the media did pay very close attention several years back that in more recent years perhaps this is falling away.

In terms of a story the media seeking to cover I would say that crime generally has not been featuring as a subject that requires screwed over the last 4 years people have been focused on somebody other things that we haven't talked about these things and where they may be aware of there may be happening so I think the answer to your question is absolutely welcome anybody that might be covering as they have done.

I think that just say that to that suggest that nobody is coming it will nobody else has covered.

I think deflect from the fact that we have not had a proper conversation about what's broken are and what we need to remedy.

Thank you very much indeed.

Can I ask you a personal question if you don't mind which is just about the cost that this has had

On you you know the experience of speaking to so many people and sitting in so many court cases and hearing the Horrors it must have paid a huge toll on you and your life the table point in 2015 when I order half years working on nothing else where I had to say x I can't carry on because the unrelenting grimness of the story the bleakness of every aspect of it the easy other women their families the frustrations of a graphic nature of what these men had been able to do with virtual impunity for how many years the ignorance and intransigence of institutions that reading counted.

I always in my career being able to leave the office at the end of.

Get downstairs and relax.

Have a glass of wine.

What do you have to The West Wing chill and the first time in my career? I couldn't couldn't drop it and it was affecting every aspect of my life and I got to a point where the prospect of writing one more story about child sexual abuse one-to-many and the time for a kindly agreed that that was enough and I thought and hoped today is my 60th birthday.

This was not how intended to celebrate my 60th birthday happy birthday.

Thank you.

Happy Birthday dude.

Long has not given me a birthday present in recent days, and I just felt despite not going to go anywhere near the story anymore.

I thought I've had a duty to try to set the record straight on certain.

That is one of them are storms record yourself and the mainstream Media all evil we're not covering up.

Speaking to her.

Thank you very much indeed for taking so much time that's Andrew Norfolk and we will also speaking to Nazir afzal now matter is a band and use of independent fact Chequers on Facebook and Instagram is replacing them with community notes where commenting on the accuracy of posts is left to use us something x formerly twitter all Mark Zuckerberg announced the change we can get rid of fat Chequers Inn replace them with community notes Max starting in the US in 2016 the Legacy Media Router non-stop about this information was a threat to democracy.

We tried in good faith to address those concerns without becoming the orbitals of truth have just been too politically biased in a destroyed more trust the lake created especially in the US over the next couple of months.

Well to assess this decision.

It is of course relevant to remember that Donald Trump is about to become president, but there's other relevant contact to in fact Mark Zuckerberg alluded to some of it matters independent fact Chequer program started back in 2016.

It was a response to criticism about how information was able to spread online during that years US election an election that Donald Trump Dennis January 6th 2021 and the assault on the US capitol in the days following meta posted a statement online it red we removed from Facebook and Instagram the video of President Trump speaking about the protests and his subsequent post about the election results we made the decision that unbalanced these post contribute to rather than diminish the risk of ongoing and then there's the pandemic last year Mark Zuckerberg chief executive of m of course said he regretted agreeing to request from the Biden administration to remove some content on Facebook

That was relating to covid and now he has Katie was saying m introducing community note this system, which was introduced by Elon Musk after he bought Twitter involves people of different points agreeing on notes, which add context or clarifications too posts which are deemed to require it so to put it simply this is quite a change of tack by meta Angie drobna.

Colon is the director of the international fact-checking network it represents more than 100 that checking organisations worldwide including us fact-checking organise things that matter is ending its partnership with hello and you thank you so much for coming on the media show just tell us first.

What do these organisations do for Facebook how did the process actually work?

Thank you for having me the way the program works is that have access to medical use that include suspicious information so the state uses or algorithms are flagged as being potentially false or misleading and in the large purple talking about conspiracy theories and hooks contact the doctor's select the post that they think are most likely to get people's attention or go viral that check them and then feed their finding start to murder then makes decisions about downranking poster putting filters over them a typical user experience would be with sea of grey screen that says independent fact-checkers have question this information.

Are you sure you want to see if this program has been going on for many years we believe it's improved the day-to-day experiences of most users on Facebook bye.

Making the post content not so high up in their feeds so this in the claims that back Chequers or buyers.

We strongly reject that we have criteria around accuracy transparency and independence this showed up in the choices some made about what do fats check and how do you not agree that buyers can sort the choices about? What do that check for example?

This is possible to concentrate on that chicken false information.

We never heard complaints from letter before about bias in the programme murder of inside very complementary things about the program.

So when you still ok, bud saying that too politically biased have been too many mistakes and too much censorship.

What did you think?

It sounded like the Talking points of the new administration and its supporters because they've been saying it for many many years and the timing of this announcement does not seem like any coins and this is also the kind of thing that has been saying a c b Twitter and dismantled all of this content moderation, so it seems highly political and coming out of The Little Mermaid and so therefore just talk me through your thought what your thoughts are on being replaced by this community notes model.

What will it mean? Do you think what we seen the community notes model on Twitter and I don't think it's a very effective way of reducing hooks continent conspiracy.

Theories is some ways it relies on consensus among people of wildly different political views and what we admire free speech and freedom of expression is.

First we consider freedom of expression is critical to our work.

There are a lot of things that come to the UK you can't say little consensus will reveal what is accurate or not.

You need to rely on on evidence so the community notes.

I think it could possibly be with platforms that were truly committed to improving information integrity for their users if it was implemented correctly but right now.

Just seems like window dressing for social media companies that want to be able to say they doing something without actually doing it.

OK what do you think it'll mean then for the in the UK and the EU because here and third party fact-checkers actually remain in place for now and it comes to Facebook

Critical moment implement this program in the US study and then I'll make decisions about other countries and their regulatory environments other countries so we will see what the future holds now the back Chequers in Europe organised through the standard network and they have told me that they support the EU regulations and think they have a lot of potential to improve people's experiences, but the key is going to be in the enforcement of these regulations and a needs to be more reporting on exactly how you and the UK and because it is a very critical moment and you dropped at home from politifact politifact.

Thank you so much for insights who won the media so well also joined by Juliette

Award-winning invested journalist and tech commentator also fellow at Harvard Kennedy School and one of the reasons we wanted to speak to you.

Julia is that you are a widely shared commentary about trust and we'll get to that in a few minutes, but I wonder what you thought about that phrase for a Mark Zuckerberg on Trust where he said the fact check is a destroyed more Trust than they've created struck by the strength of that the most controversial decision that the right is upset with about is one that made himself personally which is to kick Donald Trump off the platform that actually was a decision Mark Zuckerberg make it clear that he made it personally is he said at the time that trump had many times already broken the policies Facebook and probably should have had his posts.

Taking down but but he believed it was important that people could hear from you know somebody who is running for president so I think the person who lost honestly with Mark Zuckerberg and what happened after that is were as a backlash against him and against Facebook from the right who said this is a political decision and now that they're coming at the power is changing his tune because he doesn't want to be on about side anymore.

I think it's a very simple.

I don't think there's any evidence that fact-checking destroyed.

There's a lot of evidence actually but people who study labelling on social media, but I basically labour work.

They work well to persuade people about fast they work to inform the community and they are very effective strategy if you want to.

To be prioritised but that is just got a lot of attention and quite really because this is an important decision, but it's not the only type of content moderation meta and Facebook and Instagram within that do how else is Mark Zuckerberg changing his approach to what can and can't be put onto his platforms essentially he is so it's going to be a free-for-all and we'll see if that actually true because the reality is nobody would want to Vienna Facebook that's a true for you alright.

There is a lot of really disgusting content that they removed for a people who have a reasonable experience there and he did say when I'm still trying to take down tourism a child sexual abuse but he did make a plan to basically the same like you know can't say where are you alright? You can have slurs against you know he said lgbtq regulations.

You know when I can lose against them anymore when I can take down.

Things that might not be absolutely horrific but definitely or unpleasant and so he is making a decision to start of cater to administration.

Who is made it very clear that they believe that content that they are producing some of which might perhaps you know a slur been taking down on fairly as though he's saying ok when I cannot do that anymore and move or operation teams from California to Texas which is a clear sign from a blue state two red state so essentially you saying we're going to be on TV in bed right now well well as you say we need to see how this plays out it be interesting to check back in with you in a few months to see how I practise these moderation policies are being implemented, but as always mention one of the reasons we wanted to ask you on the media show today was because of what you been saying about trust and it plays into a range of.

Use that we've tackled on the media show in recent months and one of those is the role of music influences Piers Morgan would describe themselves as a news influence so but today we found out that he is leaving Murdoch News UK to focus on expanding his uncensored YouTube channel, so he's focusing on YouTube and this is part of several broader trends that we've seen of individuals going out on their own the digital world of YouTube becoming more and more important to medium businesses and perhaps also have Legacy organisations being less willing to maintain huge very expensive contracts for particular individuals that got people talking at you're saying that the Legacy media has much to learn from online news influencers.

What are you saying? It is all about trust and how it turned I mean I started this and Kramer and The Legacy of in Wall Street Journal

But I also reported recovers technology and I have seen the growth of YouTube and tiktok.

You can't ignore the fact that the audience is fully gone to the forms and they're just out there.

They're watching news there and I wanted to understand.

What is the difference in you could just say old people are stupid and I don't believe that.

I think you have to learn from the audience is looking for and I should have used a certain framework around what is what makes things trustworthy and really well humans trust each other when they feel like the person that they are talking to has their interests at heart which is the car benevolence has some demonstrated competence some abilities, so they're perhaps an expert on the thing no talking about Ian they have integrity meaning that if they do something wrong with it.

Will tell you why they will be fracture there was somebody called out on it and loads of the elements of trust and when I looked at.

YouTube tic Tac particularly vs.

Legacy Media when I saw that the Creator community that that creates content on these social media platforms, just works a lot harder to prove it three metrics rate the interact with their communities.

They call each other out.

They do these videos called duets where they might react or respond to each other's can't write in the comments.

They they are telling you what level does because they have like I'm makeup eyeshadow and tell you about them work harder to build trust with their audiences and to me that something that Legacy Media Kildare from to stay with us, so we got two people here.

No idea of a makeup creators that but one of them.

What are the reason tiktok news influence at Joey contino is based in New Jersey and runs an account focus on politics and Russia Ukraine war and then we've also delighted.

News agency Thomson reuters editor in chief at welcome to you both on the media show and Jerry if we just start with you explain then what you do.

I know did you recently posted videos about Russian troop losses in Ukraine and also Donald Trump's press conference in marahlago essential as it comes out my primary Focus is what's going on in Ukraine I dive deep into Russian telegram Ukrainian telegram and decipher it because it's a lot of lease new news that don't like come out because we're now at the time in technology where when something happens.

We can now get verification extremely quickly and expanding all that I'm now obviously going into other countries and reporting what's going on as you're finding out.

There's a light connections to elections in Russia and what then just said that you've already sold yourself, but the people who don't know how.

Best value how big is your following and what do you think is behind your success so at this very moment were sitting over 500000 followers we get anywhere between 40 to 60 million use every single month and ultimately what makes us different on tiktok.

See them later.

See if that works Tralee person on we open up our phones and search on the news.

We're not talking millions on talking best friend.

Always looks like it's got have been away in the audience connect to that on another Level because we start off with the day we become part of the routine to the fat to the to the place to wear now.

We're like your condom time.

Hey, did you hear what happened today and over the years? It was Julie was saying we built the trust up to where they now only come to us and actually been Feed Us information believe it or not around the world.

Who is the Halo do you know what happened the golfer feeling? I was on that very here's a photo and so we built up that trust and it's something that like I see cannot hard for dinner compared to because we're here.

Different levels we got them in a most vulnerable areas there in in bed at night watching us you know they're in the bathroom there in the shower on a bus and so we have that NASA connection with audiences that other people don't seem to get ok and when it comes to how you demonstrate your knowledge, or you authority for example in in your out but how do you incorporate the ways to do that with the question what you're talking about trust being a key issue for you when it comes to your relationship with your users.

Are you also ensuring of course you are but they not just trust you but they believe that you have authority in this area that you had a great deal of knowledge when it comes to what you're posting it comes down especially what's going on Ukraine and Russia I'm a big believer in a 3 of a patient process in order to really get things.

There is the meaning of stories a great day going on a cross region and I can report about that because I came verified.

I will never put that out there because my audience has been growing with me and I see how I felt check things.

I'm in fact check my can I get something while I make a video about it in if not if I do say something wrong with you have other creators Oakenfold like a I think you meant to say this and then I'll put a video that say hey look.

I apologise I meant to say yes, this is what it is internet Mayans did understand that I can't get the best interest in mind.

He's a viewing information to get views and clicks stay with us.

We appreciate you coming on the media.

Show me from reuters from Thomson reuters.

Thank you very much for coming back on the program.

We always enjoy you coming on I wonder where you start with the issue of trust when you have a big brand like reuters which is widely trusted is there a risk there that bring some complacency because you think I've got a head start here to be back before you answer your question is just a couple.

I think I'd like to highlight in the conversation.

That's just come through the other which the other gas sort of highlighting one is that consensus does not necessarily mean true that an important point in the second one is at our experience with Factor couldn't how many legs has the news organizations have increased their fact-checking teams.

I mean you know the BBC has as well and experience has been very positive that it has been enhancing of of trust and of our ability to put truth out into the world.

So just to follow well as you bring it up, then take of Mark Zuckerberg's comments that the fact Chequers had the opposite effect our experience has been that that we have a very strong tax like an operation and it's important part of our Newsroom just like it is I know for yours so that's what I would like you.

Would it make you less likely to post reuters content on meta platforms like Instagram and and

Book that they now won't be using fact-checkers what you asked me and I don't think were complacent and I think that you're weird has been in the business for 173 years and it's not enough for us a lot of our the bulk of our business is a business-to-business approach, which we provide news to all of the news organisations in the world like the BBC and we provide news to a financial Terminal at which is currently owned by London Stock Exchange group and now we are entering into the consumer world.

We have a new revamped app, but the experience of having to give news to other news on it.

Any particular to financial markets where investors or trading and are making decisions that will make the money or lose the money based on our news is a real discipline allows us to say that we have to give them trusted news because if not if you love somebody never been to your business relationships rely on the fact your services are trustworthy, but I wonder what you were thinking it was listening to her.

Joey approaches his reporting which is a very spontaneous fluid flexible approach which responds to what is he from his audience.

Do you think a big organisation like reuters could adopt some of that would be really you get your news from so if you are reporting on the train and Russia you know I can say we get our news because we have very big Bureaus in both Ukraine and Russia and so we get our news which we then put out into the world to billions of

The world based on our journalists on the ground who everyday see touch feel talk to people on the ground and we've been doing this for years so to answer that question I would there be curious to know where you get that.

I will be glad the internet for you so for those who don't know I've been Ukraine several times and there's a different layers or I get me information from a lot of it actually first-hand from soldiers in the ground.

You know this was 560 years ago would say when press releases got sent out the only got sent out to Legacy Media now that were in this new world.

We get that stuff sent to whenever the president put something out whenever I press releases come out.

I'm on those emails.

I also get my news from telegram channels.

Can I dive into what both sides are saying in since I've been covering this for over 2 1/2 years.

I'm able to speak about hey this is what's being said this is what most likely is happening and then from the earlier.

I report to come out and verify the stories that were missing here which is often when it comes to news influences the content just more fun the mainstream Media from the Spires to for example impartiality and objectivity this can be a bit dry and we looking at a world where News entertainment is what what people want.

I think that's an element of it, but I also think that there is important to think about the fact that humans are designed to trust other humans and has seen that face and as they talk to you actually makes a huge difference.

That's how we were designed to to understand each other and so that's why TV obviously has worked on radio right place for the printed word for especially as a his written in the neutral objective tone.

It doesn't have that resonance.

There is an advantage to news important that sounds like his own research for plenty of them.

Do take alessandra's hard work and so there is an element in this world where they really do rely on mainstream journalism and then should have read it.

You know that I think it's

Imbalance in this news economy that needs to be fixed because we can have it that all the value goes to people just read the news we need that original on-the-ground reporting but I think we also need to think activity and have a basically thing that is most important is not the way we have framed of the TV which is like neutrality and a purity of heart.

You know there's nothing about like I didn't have any personal views on that I'm just watching what happened.

That's not what I feel like the nature of impartiality Neutrality and so probably for another Lodge and length interesting segment on the media show because they that's a big one that you're opening up Alexander just finally news influencers primarily giving their content directly to the audience is used to describe reuters business is largely given content to other businesses.

I wonder if there are particular things that business is want from you to demonstrate the trustworthiness of your

We are giving our news to other news organizations such as the BBC and other news organizations around the world on the one hand we are also giving news2day said before financial professionals, but we have a growing consumer or business, so we are also providing NewsNow directly to individuals Direct audience with Bill because of where we set in the ecosystem.

We have always been about providing new information facts from the ground and were very global news organisation because we are in 200 locations around the local news organisation in that we journalist working in their own countries reporting.

They haven't put in for many years on their own governments on culture and that what is a key ingredient.

Two we feel to trust you with your up so I'm jumping in here.

Only because we got a little bit tight on time, but you'll be your rooting your trust in the reporting network that the roids organisation is offering well.

Thank you very much indeed for speaking with us.

Thank you.

Yes Alessandra galloni from Thomson reuters and also Juliet angwin and Joey contino the last minutes of the program are going to be all about the release of Grand Theft Auto 6 which if you listen to some people is going to be the biggest media event of the year here's something to get you in the mood for Grand Theft Auto 6 which dropped in December 2023 and it is all video game plans have seen a bit so far.

It has had 232 million views on YouTube and

Hurt, he's a freelance gaming journalist is with us pic.

Hello.

Is it happening this the numbers around this game and this franchise are absolutely crazy could generate more than $3 in sales in the first 12-months people are we going out with the parent company that makes it has given an interview with some clothes, but yeah, we're confirmed.

That is looking like what I said fall 2025, but the benefit they haven't the CEO was able to sort of touch on is there is no rush if they want the game to be perfect they have no competition figure.

Speak for themselves on that the last game.

They released hit 1 billion sales in 3 days and by comparison.

That is fastest-selling entertainment that film TV of all time Avengers endgame reached 1 billion in 5 days.

So they really are sort of taking the time to get it right now as part of wives.

Play successful by actually are you don't know about action adventure Game series which typically Focuses on a protagonist who sort of down and working away through the criminal underworld through the list of activities, but it's all of the adult violin the game that makes it quite controversial, but it is the second best selling game franchise of all time but people been being over 10 years since the last one so the hype is over build a top franchise Minecraft from Microsoft and how do you see this next one what technological might set it apart we know so from the trailer of which is all that we've seen of it so far as we know that lover is the umpire it's not entirely but it looks fantastic that looks on par with the sword.

Expecting to see now, but we also know that we're going to have a i which means that sort of the characters.

You're not playing in the game will be more realistic.

They'll move or sorted naturally through the we getting the first female protagonist.

We are yeah until now.

It's all being male protagonist.

So this is the first one but I can get it sorted Bonnie and Clyde judo, but it is the first sort of female playable character the series 14 and when they release the game by this is it available on all the main consoles all the main platforms, so this one is available.

It's going to be available on PS5 and Xbox series X they said so far that APC it may not be available at launch that will probably be a bit later and we don't know if it's going to release on the the PS5 pro which is the newest console that we've only a few seconds.

Do you get preview in the same way that film review is might get free views of films rockstars.

Historically a bit tight lipped with the other games.

I think it kind of happens, but it's always a very.

Well, if you get to see it, let us know, thank you so much for coming.

Thanks to all of our guests for joining us if you'd like to listen back to this additional any other day you can find it on BBC sounds by from both of us by Cassidy and we want to tell you all about our podcast off the telly.

It's basically about what we've been up to on and off-screen who what we discount with it was plenty of behind-the-scenes stories in Glossop is definitely the place for what occurred.