Read this: PR v journalism, Post Office drama one year on, predictions for 2025

All the time running the word was out to get nearest and gangster organised hit in the middle of his Hartland territory the best of 2024 is here listen on BBC sounds BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 programme looking back looking forward is a year since the hugely influential ITV drama Mr Bates vs.

The post office brought the plight of hundreds of subpostmasters and mistresses wrongly accused of fraud in.

Will you have those affected have approach their relationship with the media to try and offer you a guide to the Year ahead to we've assembled an expert panel to share predictions of 22 in store for the media now.

We're going to start with 2 guests from elsewhere in the Radio 4 schedule many of you will know when it hits the fan.

It's a program and podcast all in a crisis public relations at the moment pressure.

It's presenters a David yelland and Simon Lewis both ultra experience does comes advisors and in David's also experience as a journalist the edited the sun.

David and Simon look at stories and issues through the prism of comms and PR rather than I will often be looking at those same stories and issues, but through the prism of journalism.

We've ordered be interesting for us to exchange notes because on the front of him our jobs as journalist seeking out.

What's happened their jobs as cons advisors protecting reputations putting their clients perspective could be seen as being in opposition for David and Simon working to say to them.

It's not that simple.

The reason people spend a lot of money on P on the reason of my people in PR is I think the two reasons one in a very competitive world.

You've got to do everything you can to make sure that your reputation actually is preserved and we can all seem to do the programme what happens when a reputation goes badly wrong and secondly you gotta find a way of getting your message into a very crowded market because I'm not doing that is advertising as a eyes all sorts of things but when it comes down to it.

Having people around you PR experts who can advise you on the former to help you identify possible risk for the reputational and then if something has really helped me through it but also to say look here are some ways of getting your message out there in a way that's different to your competitors and it doesn't sound like much but I think given where we are in terms of the dynamic of the media in terms of what's happening.

This is incredibly valuable for people that I realise now and I was a journalist and b.

H a tabloid journalist so it.

You see the people went telling me anything but I'm frightened of me.

I don't think it myself.

If only person that all went well if you have the son that's frightening when you know Tony I walk into rooms people to pretty much everything and I love that but you have to learn you can't talk about it, but I think the world of pr.

Your colour scheme from outside, but you're inside the room.

Where is it in the world of journalism.

You're trying to work out what's going on? I think that's quite an important way of looking at it Simon you alluded to the fact that the relationship between journalists and PR people as a valve no wonder if that's in part because journalist artist Central to the pr equation as they once were perhaps at the beginning of your career if you wanted to get a message out you had to do it yet by the news media now.

You've got a lot of options where you can have nothing to do with journalists and get the message straight out absolutely right.

I mean when I started all those years ago.

Managed to persuade the Financial Times or one of many correspondence to write something about your client.

You'd feel delighted indeed the property team for instance had four five six people those now one person have to your property.

So what's happened? Is that the journalism has been stripped out of a lot of resources and all sorts of reasons for that when a big story happens, when one of your clients is in the midst of the I feel like from the other side as a Jealous I've to my career many times gone head-to-head with the pr person telling me for example that know if I wasn't involved in that prevents years ago.

I've seen it from that side but from your side.

How do you go about it? What's the Beginning what's the first Asian crisis? It is always chaos and the idea that companies cover things are generally don't do that.

It's usually complete disaster and people if you think it's not really you know there are many examples that.

The post office this year there are clearly enquiries impossible criminal activities around to be careful but basically some people you what was happening most people didn't know what was happening.

I've gone in many times 2 companies where there has been a real huge cock massive crisis and the Bold have no idea they don't know what what what has happened that the packing and using the national being would be another new who knew who didn't know you know it's from when I was a journalist.

I thought it was simple everybody knew that can ring up there all little lattice is never like that is much more complex when you go in as a particular is an external PR person you're often the one that sounds nice people that that are the first people will at first responders where the ones who knew what when where how exactly what a journalist will ask but not necessarily to be revealed later.

It's really it's really hard because the lawyers will say not and cannot say anything externally we can't have this conversation number of times that I've been rooms where someone I've been told I can't ask that question I listen you know Katie on BBC in 5-minutes time sheet the first question she's going to ask you did you know about this would be interesting to talk about what people have done wrong.

It was me that actually the best thing to do unless of course as a rolling story when more and more allegations for example of coming out.

It was the best thing to do is short statement then nothing don't put anyone up for interview.

Don't do anything is in the end.

You go away because the story has no legs because you can't get anything more out of it, but obviously that's not always what people doing that isn't the right thing I wonder what you will think I think that it is very easy to say to a company.

You've just got to issue a brief statement and then you know it will settle down but usually there is a global company there is huge.

Potential litigation the costs of saying something that you later regret are immense so actually it's better to take the battery and sometimes nothing sometimes yet sometimes sometimes like Jennifer's friend.

Obviously still say what you know.

Why are you lying that company to take about and I can't say anything but the answer is it doesn't cost anything was if we say something have we got it wrong.

It's gonna be brilliant.

That is just but I do think he your example applies to the cuddle Legacy Media world.

I mean I can figure 23 institutional person has decided to exactly what you said and the overwhelming social media reaction has made it impossible for them to say that I mean the Princess of Wales have a good example in the got stage where her advisors quite right decided that she had to say or do something to deal with what was being written.

What was happening in the social media one? I think we have to all come to terms that.

Pr42 the that strategy which other was absolutely right to 30 years ago.

You've got to have a different plan because eventually you got to do well changes and also the social media world has to be stop sometimes in its tracks, can we talk about some of the examples? We've had on the meteor shower over the last year also we had someone talking about the Church of England in light of John Smyth behaviour and the Temple of used but it was BBC investigative journalist Colin Campbell who had done early investigations into the Church of England and at one point was sent an email and internal Church of England email in error, and it said we need to choke Colin Campbell off with sufficient information.

I wondered if you sign of your encountered approaches in your own work.

I have and they've always been counterproductive.

I mean the factors that if you use language like that the chances are that it's indicative of a bigger.

What is the institution concerned doesn't understand the severity what's happening? I often think when I hear people talking francaise about dealing with a program like Panorama I just I'm surprised the post office good example the colour completely adversarial relationship the people are prepared to take with a program like Panorama when in fact the best thing is to accept the program is going to happen and try and work with an outcome.

That's going to possibly net positive effect release of neutrophil.

I think it's kind of and it comes.

I think the world of politics after honest adversarial idea that every battle in between PR and the pr intern this is one that everyone.

I think is a force.

It's a false position adversarial perception or even behaviour come from what you would have scribing David which is the and journalists are coming for an individual or for a story or for an organisation a lot of people in the room feel scared and from that fear comes and adversarial approach.

Well, I mean.

Is adversarial and has to be because the you know the journalist sound to get the company and the company trying to defend itself is just trying to find out what happened.

Well it depends on which side of the fence.

She said I have been involved in many situations where my honest view is I know this is the media shown that many journalist have listened to it my honest with you.

Is that the journalists have either wrong or they? Just don't quite understand and that happens a lot so the idea is not the same as being out to get the company can be able to get the company so the view business particularly in in in private business private equity you know because you know we are going to look back at this current period now and say those of the good old days.

We have business.

That is often quoted I know Tesco you can buy shares in its public faces.

It has communications people people like doesn't work for that company and you can get the CEO of the easily and you and there's lots of free journey.

I'm afraid that parties going to non-democratic world pretty quickly in business is going to the gold is going to China and we're going to look back in 10 to 10 to 1 years time or less and say we live in a country where we can get the edge of the Sunday Mail on the phone sort things out there a lot of people in business, and they don't say this publicly that have quite a low view of the media and I spent quite a lot of my time trying to disavow them of that for you, but it's quite difficult because they will say everytime I read about myself or my company it all wrong number times.

I've I've heard that and I turned around and try and explain why that is witches you don't speak to the other people speaking for you and people make mistakes and these are often complex issues.

I have to say that the idea that the media is all wonderful and free and non attended and that business and the celebrity world.

I was covering things up.

It is not like that people in this country.

We have we have our print Media which have has an agenda as they are part of a great game.

They are not sitting there on the sidelines as the BBC does and objectively covering the facts.

Just to go back to that point about the kind of taxes that are used and what you've seen another person had on Chris blackhurst whose former editor of The Independent he was talking about the Al-Fayed situation that he'd written about in the past.

He said there was a bully inside to him.

Talk about Al-Fayed I thought on one occasion.

I've written something about him.

He didn't like and Michael Cole he was doing his PR he didn't write to the editor.

He wrote to all the directors on the board a long letter attacking me and that was the Fired star he was fruit.

Does that sort of stuff go on still let's be honest surround themselves with people who are prepared to do their bidding and one of the letters.

I think from the

Alpha case and others is that you have to look for warning signals.

I was in a warning signal is someone like al13 as a succession of pr.

People princess.

Why why does some not last whale work with an iPhone someone over lies online as I was saying is completely scientific but there a warning signs and I think I've said no.

I'm not going to work for someone like that.

Is that I have got things.

I wouldn't do the seven class.

I wouldn't say gone however.

I do think we have discussed the world 0pr is a bit like the world of Law you should be prepared to take on cases as long as you are confident and comfortable is the right thing to do so I've never had a problem with the idea of representative case they have their guardrails have there been situations where either if you've been sitting in the room you're in the first second and third meeting a new thing actually I can't do this.

Yeah.

You know I I was a partner which is like to know the top of the market in financial PR

Brunswick we were very careful who we work with brands.

It will not work for anybody you know and there were many many many individuals and businesses that it would not work so they would approach Brunswick you would do research and check out the whole situation and then to take a position where there is a due diligence function in the big PR companies now that will that will after a new client comes in in the door come visit the client and talk to the client and look at that box and before they accept them as a client and I think the other go to having worked for big Dr come as well along the way people very quickly work out and there's certain clients who people don't want to take on and as always reputational issues and I think that's a pretty good litmus test you hear about clients may not be able to find that perfect but I think there's a colour process.

By people in our world actually so you know what that doesn't look like the right colour thing for me.

It's a delicate mind, but it's achievable David when is it acceptable with there to protect the clients reputation at the expense of public transparency.

Yes, there are examples of that and there will be an example the church of that Colin Campbell interview and I was shocked by that to be honest with you and you know very short and and and and buy some things that Cathy Newman says as well and that email that was sent him that is such an alarm bell so you know a company often doesn't know itself it happens in the city of all-time happened to Tesco and all over the place.

So it's not as some said it's not black and white I think it sounds a bit late.

I think the part of what we do in the morning as we aim to hold up the mirror to a

Until the coffee work for because there aren't very many people inside a company or advising covers hujr.

We can all have a mirror say this is the reality you might not like it.

You got to make your own decisions but actually with telling it as it is still in the big rolls.

I did in big companies I can sometimes so I'm a bit like half and half hour because actually you need people who are prepared to say this is what we think the reality is you may not wish to take the view but the fact is the bigger the company the more enclosed it becomes and quite often are anybody's Oscars just hold up that mirror and join this never see that obviously that's not your world at the age of different we hold at the mirror and say look at it.

You meant like which favour afternoon.

We are two different times the media world and the world of business is so different.

It's hard.

I hardly know where to start it.

It's I didn't realise it's over so different different people.

Is of looking at the world not once I better than the other but they are completely different well, that's why I think is a bit of a corporate.

I think what we do also is to help the code for the business world.

What are the journalist looks like it's the first.

I've always thought that actually in the middle is a very interesting place to be because you're helping both parties.

Did the code what the other party ready? Thanks, quite reasonably we spent a long time talking about PR and how it interacts with the news and with journalist, but I know on your podcast that you talked about clean Rooney on I'm a Celeb Get Me Out of Here and how that has been APR Triumph for her to get your thoughts on this just before we get into that's worth reminding those of you listening.

If you don't recall the work of the Christie affair well.

That was a name given to a dispute between Coleen Rooney and Rebekah Vardy over the leaking of private information from Coleen Rooney's Instagram account which culminated in a 2022 libel case.

Hi cord, how do you think Coleen Rooney approach going on I'm a Celebrity and why do you think it's gone so well, but you have to be very smart and she is smart you have to be very because businesses are there great big amorphous things aren't they that you know and they can even the senior people can sleep either way and go home for the weekend and do other things if there's nowhere to hide.

So if you get it wrong.

It's all on you.

How much of her success when I'm a celebrity in the the way with you her is about really just down to her and how much of it is about PR and around most of it is about her.

That's only got that most of it.

Is it is about a wisdom is a very big word to use but it is the essential thing in navigating the way if you're famous and two companies as well as individuals most people don't have it.

They make mistakes.

They do stupid things they get One Show's they shouldn't go on there by company that shouldn't by and we.

Don't have to try and tidy that up.

I I think I might not be a festival thing to say but I think that Coleen Rooney is one of the smartest people actually if you're smarter people of the Year she will be in my top 10 and what is it that she? What are the tactics for what she done to the word cos I think this is the Last Chance Saloon contestant.

Let's do some more like Matt Hancock there's the rebrand contestant and Nigel Farage probably fits that bill and then you've got the kind of Superstar I don't have to say love my heating Nigel Farage is appearance and I'm a Celebrity we have to accept made a difference the way lot of people say where's for that Hancock so probably didn't quite get through last chance and the wedding about something like that.

It's just that we'll know is view as we all know what being prwc Nigel Farage on I'm a Celebrity or indeed.

If we watch the small the Jacob rees-mogg and yet.

So brilliant that you feel yourself was even might just pulled into it and it really works even if you know that you're being PR you kind of forget it.

I do think so, what is are a very different breed most of us, whatever we do tend to walk away from huge fame and media coverage and there's a group for celebrities most levels have a desire to walk boards and I think for me and overdose much this world Eliza I think they're almost there for unavoidable you can't advise people who actually want to do that you can advise people how to navigate to 13, but I think a lot of people who become very famous.

It's almost I'm going to stay as long as an addiction so the ability to actually advise them if they are constantly walking towards this flickering light of is very beautiful and I think that's why I often a lot of celebrities doing closed because eltermere I left with the left of the ephemeral nature of Fame I mean I think being really really famous in the current world.

In the digital age is not on I wish it on anybody it is always been difficult but it now it is really really hard now well done and Dave it's been fantastic.

Having you on the media show just before you go I wonder if you look across the big crisis comms and PR stories of the Year whether it might be Harrods the post office the church and are they common threads to how these responses of being handled and how perhaps they could have been better handled.

I was so for me the thing that always surprised.

It's supposed to Citizens that I made in real-time that turn out to be the wrong decisions that when you come of play that you think why did you make that decision when you have the time to make a different decision or you could have taken some advice, so I'm constantly amazed which is what makes our promo think so interesting that those are if you want to work prices.

Just haven't they don't crisis get played out and there were two or three.

In any crisis where you can play the wrong card and it could be existential.

I think that's what makes of both fascinating but also deeply troubling if you're in a crisis because in real time you are making if they go the wrong way have really Paul's consequences.

I should say I don't have any certain knowledge of this but I suspect we're just seen the tip of the iceberg the ones with the other ones out there.

I think that the very nature of human activity and business and everything there are loads of crisis and fan.

It is going on some of which will come out next year.

I'm away to come out the error after a many of which never come out and that is just a fact it because you as she said recently, but this is the fact that trust in the media is down.

It's hard pyjamas doing an important job of holding power to account to actually get attention that you recently said David this might be an opportunity for the pr industry for some in the pr industry to hide things in Plain Sight

Are you worried about the future in the damage, but that kind of effective but wrong PR might do it's never the decision decision APR people to to hide things in Plain Sight but the fact is that when the world is deteriorating as it has this year when we have so many WhatsApp what's happening to National and political there have been many days when it's a good day, too.

What was the very bad belly button to bury bad news however however, but that it's that simple every newspaper in this country has a business section and they have at least 506 pages Neville the film every day, so it doesn't matter if Siri is happening all over you know that it will come up but I am afraid the idea that we know what is going on all the time is I've is it is a dreaming.

There's a lot of stuff going on we don't know about.

Thanks to David Tennant and Simon Lewis and we'll see if we get an invite for a return match on their programme when it hits the fan is back on the 14th of January on Radio 4 on BBC sounds.

Let's return to one of the stories.

We talked about with David and Simon it's now A Year to the day since the Mr Bates vs.

The post office drama was first broadcast and as you know it had an enormous impact in June Parliament quash convictions relating to the Post Offices Horizon it system on a blanket basis after these convictions wish to be unfair with victims taking responsibility for a regularity is caused by faulty software by November according to the Financial Times 440 million have been paid to 3100 claimants across for compensation schemes.

There is also been the post office Horizon enquiry it heard final statements just before Christmas

Is chair of the North chances campaign which provide support for the children of post office Horizon victims a family member employed and her mother's post office was accused of false accounting lead to her mother being declared bankrupt and Happy New Year drama aired and what does this past year been like over all it's been quiet emotionally draining have everything for the passport back up in quite a lot especially on our group and on the families affected by the post office scandal on the flip side of that it's been really liberating.

You know the formation of our last chance is great has created a safe for children who were affected by the Scandal to have their voices heard and have their feed and justify.

And it's really brought about a sense of community with everybody who's been affected by the and if you just take us back to January as that program and I remember sitting down to watch it with many at turned out millions of others but for you.

What was it like watching it.

It was rather daunting to be honest bro.

Thank goodness that it's out there and it really did a brilliant job or making sure everybody that all those years of suffering.

They were alone and we were alone in it and people now do believe all parents and other family members of what happened and a kind of liberated Innocence of window that we were in the right and the post office in predicted digital was all of this so it was great traumatising and some aspects and to see other people's stories unfold within the drama did bring around a sense of relief because the same thing and at the time and afterwards and incredible reaction and then the government reaction to it people were saying how good it take a drama to change this I would argue slightly differently.

And before that lead to then deciding that there was enough of a story here to turn it into a drama, but I wonder from your perspective how you saw it because the drama did change things yeah absolutely did it was a lot surround and if you weren't looking for it, then you wouldn't have followed the media with it.

I do believe their culture now in the way.

We do things it is we love a dramatisation of any true story we love the snapshot of or from the tree story has been dramatised the same parts, but yeah without it.

I don't think the most of the general public would have known about this.

I don't believe that would have been such pressure into what is now this huge enquiry.

That's been going and I don't believe that we would have seen much media and representation around it and what's been your experience like since.

Acting with the median and you mention the enquiry.

There's a media room at the enquiry, how much time do you spend in there? What's that like? There? Is the media for us has been a bit of a safe space looked after and obviously we are victims that we are quite Jr and this when not trained professionals.

We are just normal people who have been through time at the hands of the Post Office but our experience has been extremely positive.

We seem very bad act and the media with the enquiry can be a lot.

It's quite a good day to go there and listen to a lot of evidence.

I just explain what it is.

It's a room full of journalists and you go in and took some how does it work? Yeah, so a few generous that we know where we met body preset up with they're all the reported on the day as it goes and then there is also pocket the time during Britax the potential to sit down with different Media outlets.

Discuss what's happening with the day and afterwards or feelings a bit so yeah, you can just kind of get cold on the day if you want to do something but but as a last chance it is a lot of it and hi Rebecca it's is Rosie thanks for joining us as I'm listening to talking with Katie I'm wondering if you feel that journalists need to pick up this story still further and she don't want to aspects of the issues and the story that perhaps haven't received the attention.

They warrant yet twists and distilled a lot that hasn't been uncovered so there's so much more room for media and JLS to put stuff out there.

I also know that is quite difficult for people who want to see how to spell a stigma of being shamed and not one in their family business ad in public so it can be quite difficult and that's that.

Can you play with the enquiry that is going on we still have people who haven't had that conversation you still haven't had their convictions overturned so it's absolutely ongoing and I don't people who speak to you who are concerned about speaking to the media or just simply don't want to if they said to you.

I'm thinking about but I'm not sure what advice based on your experience.

Would you give people as they prepare to speak to journalists about such a traumatic experience a this isn't a shower.

It's not a story.

There's nothing that have to try and remember to keep your story straight adjust honest truth and all life experience that we've been through and when the victim is something that is so big and so catastrophic then people do kind of look after you and 10-year and

Quite nice to have our stories told to myself person that I've never spoke about this until this year and I've stepped into her role in a group that if I this time last year.

I would've believed anybody but ultimately just be yourself talk to me.

It's your true that you'll be aware Rebecca that police investigating the post office in Fujitsu a saying that they have identified dozens of people have interested of said the Horizon it prosecutions will not the trial until 2027 is that I would imagine it.

Is is that a frustration to you and do you intend to try and Express that frustration through the media in the coming absolutely? It's a huge frustration for myself for the break and for all family members.

You know I've got friends now part of this group.

40 months be prosecuted and sent to prison and taking 20 years for their sentences to overturned so the fact that is going to take an additional 2 years on top of information that we all know I'm already have it seems to know by the end of this there will be no prosecutions and all those people of Interest nothing else will happen to you then OK Rebecca foot.

Thank you so much for coming on.

It's worth me.

Just reading a statement for the Post Office Nick read the chief executive officer who said my apology on behalf of today's post Offices unequivocal with deeply sorry and suffering that was called the victims of the Horizon scandal and their loved ones the wrongs of the past can never be repeated and where possible we must put them right.

Yes, thank you very much appreciate you Rebecca for chair of the Lost chances campaign which provides support for the children of post office Horizon victims to get a crystal ball out and see if we can.

Which way the media is going don't worry this won't just be me and rose taking so we definitely need some help on this and we're joined by 3 guests madhumita murgia AI editor of the Financial Times UK editor at press Gazette and Rebecca Jennings he's a senior correspondent covering social platforms and The Creator economy at the news website box I'm going to look ahead across all tissues for the media, but we're going to start with how people consume news back in September the regulator Ofcom reported the television is no longer the single main source use for UK adult absent online sources and how is popular is TV news for the first time and Rebecca let's start with your perspective on this.

How do you think consumption usual shift in the year ahead?

Forms vs.

You can have Legacy publications and this is obviously really happening.

You know like one in five Americans and mostly young people are getting their news from influencers on social media and we actually have some knowledge of who does Conor people are most of them sort of the name to the right and most of them are men and this is kind of an interesting thing when you think about when you can think of a young woman, but that's not the case with news influencers and most of them also don't have an affiliation with like a professional news organization, but I also think that you know in the wake of some reason.

I think more and more journalist will turn to these kind of vertical video platforms to share some of their content to bring to new audiences.

You know as the media industry.

Keep slagging us off.

I think it's going to be a pain, but that were seeing from Germany as well now.

I'm interested you mentioned video because what you were describing at a macro level as a shift from consuming used to organisations to a shift to consuming you some indie.

What type of journalism do you think those individuals will be producing repeating things that they've read or repeating opinions that they have an analysis that are making but like I said these are not necessarily trains journalist.

These are people that just decide to post with everyone and that is the beauty and the Curse of the internet that will be in text form in video 4 min audioware.

What do you think will be the dominant medium is a lot of podcaster also videos so you can you know many people is in the podcast at they just turn on a YouTube video is video but they're not watching it.

They're doing something else with their time as they do it as a listening and charge us to bring you because I think you've got a projection Rebecca there was talking about you know closing down jobs going in certain places, but what's your prediction when it comes to the low?

Someone local Media specifically oversee has been out of time will know that.

I think that will continue but also I think there are bright spots that will keep for example You've Got Mail Media in Manchester Glasgow Birmingham Sheffield and London not trying to cover everything but covering few things really well people will pay for that was being will ready seen more people kind of following that PlayBook and I think I'll be more things like that in more towns and cities next year but at the same time that obviously isn't all the local news.

We need things like reaches Manchester Evening News to do all the nitty-gritty at the same time so I think that's what this future of local Media is going to be it's not one thing but my prediction is that there will be more of these Mill mediatype templates about artificial intelligence if I open up.

X you almost platform sometimes.

It's trending topics will often the

I generated summary of an event do you think will be offered more and more of that type of news content? Yeah? I think increasingly people are already starting to get then use chatbots.

We just sort of a slippery slope right because we know that they make up things and that sort of the antithesis of what we try to do as journalist and but you do see a lot of people asking say a chat GPT or Alexa tea.

Is this new service which is essentially like ai-powered search so you ask a question sort of like you would with Google and then it gives you a link to a bunch of different website.

You might already be aware of a story and you think I'd like some more on this story and you ask the chatbot for that and it's you might not even a story right.

You might just think of it as like I want to know more about this person.

So say somebody thinks what the relationship between Elon Musk and Donald Trump why is it why is everybody talking about?

So you can have a very broad question you need to understand the new ones and then the chat, but is essentially synthesizing all the information which kind of you know news journalists would be doing as well all inclusive one answer and then you know hopefully be linking back to people and so to do that.

You'll see more of these deals between media companies and people do that more, but you've got major reservations about it because when moving from you know having a plurality of well sourced that information to AI generated answers to questions in some cases, they might link back to the original sources and some cases, they won't so it's the beginning of that sort of you know going over the top of media companies that to get people information.

So they don't need to go to a newspaper and is your prediction as Bloomfield as it's not next year.

But in the future news publishers will be just cut out of this entirely so that's the big battle we are commencing at the moment which is how can use publishers ensure they are not cut out because it is a lot easier as a reader or a consumer of information to just say give me an answer to a question.

I just need to know this.

I don't want to read five different news stories with context and a pyramids.

I just want to know the answer to it.

Yeah, so I is trained on online information much of that is news media, but also books music all of the copyright stuff that out there in many cases, you know not been paid for by them and say you're stuck you're starting to see deals now between AI and media companies 22 licence more of the content to pay for it.

Let's move on then to the financial of August because

Making money for news outlets as we're saying is just an ongoing problem the decline of print sales along side effects of getting harder and harder to access audiences online achille key issues when it comes in January Jan Mullen the boss of Reach PLC which covers the mirror The Express and many local newspapers onestaff.

It's print titles with the loss-making in as soon as 5-years Charlotte protection.

I think when it comes to this.

Yes, I don't think we're going to get a big shock print national newspaper closure this year.

I think they are still making money going down each year and they are expensive to produce but at reach for example printer still substantial part of the revenue online.

I think that more more are going to make up for that by having paywalls as opposed to relying on advertising that becomes difficult Market from tortoise to buy the Observer that is about yes keeping a prick.

The Beatles having an online paywall behind a paywall online version of the Observer exactly and also this year even mail Online which is one of the world's biggest news website says got a parcel came also Mail Plus and it started at about 12 to 15 premium stories of day.

I think it's more than that now.

I don't know yeah and so stuff that they think that they do better that they're called audience is like so I think more and more I'm going to think they will forget about scale.

That's less important now if you're not doing advertising that doesn't matter we need to target those call leaders at like our brand and there was a report from the Lords communications committee that was morning recently that we're headed for a two-tier media system it sounds like you agree with that exactly and I mean you mentioned in Milena treat.

He has recently raised concerns about democracy and Society about if all quality news is behind a paywall so I'd even will that's going to be something going to have to wreck.

I'm all this year, so that's the news business models for organisations.

Let's try and understand.

It's an individual's perspective Rebecca Jennings from box is still with us Rebecca you were saying you expecting me 25 to see more and more emphasis on individuals providing news on news adjacent content but there's a follow-on question can they make money from it economy? Is it pretty much works on people like individual creators being advertisements for other brands or doing brand partnerships for selling something and that one is they do a video of a brand pay them to make a video that then sponsor or they are selling items from their you know the link that would they get in out percentage of two cells many of that one thing to make money that way and I think that will continue to be a huge part of you know what it means to be a creator online.

I think everybody that.

In the past couple of years has got the feeling or it's like I was trying to sell me something and unfortunately.

I think that will continue to be the case although I will put that took us we are debating whether tiktok for the millionth time and no-one no that's happened.

You know this is definitely a boy who cried wolf situation, so but like this is it's getting pretty Daya for tiktok right now, so we don't know that we also have any present coming into office who promises to have very high tariffs army ship goods that cannot keep this creator economy affiliate link economy running so many of the creators are selling come from China and if there's been a huge Mark up in those items.

They will sell much my class and so you know this is what it's like.

It's gonna happen, but you know there's two very big world events that you know no one really knows how they going to go and and but I think it's not crazy to say that you know the Creda panel.

Rely on individual people even when they're like you know if they're still going to be selling stuff and I think that creates an interesting tension between the two but 2025 bring the the point of tension between the fact that often the attraction of individual content creators.

Is there a more authentic voice than you may get from big Media organise that authenticity could start not syncing very well with their constant requirement to sell things in order to to make this available business might this year bring her my balance breakdown little possible for a big swap the audiences, but I think being a special in young people that they really don't mind.

I think they often look up to people who really good sales people in India have really successful businesses.

They don't really mind and that there are more likely to buy from someone that they are trusting that they like you know they're kind of dislike.

Ok like you're ok.

This woman like I love that for you wear as I think older folks are a little bit hesitant that dancing in the AI space.

Do you have any thoughts or predictions? Well? I guess if you look at the other side of the coin about you know I was talking about getting news through chapter are the bright spot for publishers might be the dick and make money by making deals with those big company so we already know that you know scraping a lot of news media stories and as I said books music and so I'm already taking that data.

So if a news publishers can negotiate deals where they get paid for that whether it's a one-off or whether it's kind of a monthly a new Avenue to make money from something that currently is happening for free anyway.

We wanted your thoughts on for 2025 is how.

Humans of media are going to react to the uncertain world and which they are living we have the war in Ukraine the situation in the Middle East that climate change Donald Trump is going to be president of an even his supporters would say he is a disrupted 40 bills himself as such and there are unknowns that come with the second trump presidency Rebecca at Box let's begin with you.

How do you think all the uncertainty may impact how Media consumers behave you respond to chaos with consumption like overconsumption buying stuff and control and so I would be so last time was a really huge boom in the skincare industry, which I think is really interesting and that friend has really continued since then we see this evening with the youngest consumers were like Jennifer's driving United 49% of skincare sales you know like

Anti-aging and so I think when things feel really control people you know turn inwards also think if you combine that with the nose growing mistrust of the Healthcare industry and which CB rents culverden in the in the US and the you make America healthy again movement led by rak Junior you know it is now going to have a lot more power in a government which which colour Preachers like mistrust of the institutions and systems that can exist to help this remain safe.

I think that all together will lead to you know a lot of people would like documenting their sort of wellness journeys, and there are other body transformation journeys on internet and using your body as it's out of control on the very weird times weird time Charlotte tobitt from press Gazette I didn't interview with Anna

TiVo towards the end of 2024 and she was talking about Donald Trump and she said they were in the fashion world people they would get some there would be a trump bump that in fashion from Donald Trump all this wasn't quite sure I wasn't being open anyway about why they thought that but I wonder whether you to see that.

There will be when it comes to journalism.

I get Rebecca's saying I will say this disagreement on the press Gazette team about this so I'll give you both sides, so I said I thought they wouldn't be so there was last time kind of good grace and directions for lots of Washington Post titles like that meaning that people would make money or you know their numbers of people watching it.

What happened when he was the next time that the audience is increased traffic Gravesend subscriptions grave.

I'm not super convinced that it will happen in the same way.

I think that since then.

Change the kind of all the things Roses this thing.

I think people are kind of sick of a lot of it.

Yes, there was a bit of a traffic boost around the election, but obviously that they close election so I think that's a bit different to people just being disillusioned and a bit bored and sick of you know what's trump said today.

Where is kind of the first time round when he was I think people like oh my god, what Stansted today so I I think that we've I think that the kind of response to him? It's changing that way from the Financial Times on how Donald Trump may impact both the fts relationship with American coverage, but also more broadly his relationship with the media.

He's definitely good for news and that way I remember the last time that he was President I was in Washington for a few months and there is you know there's news stories every single day and you're right there.

Benefit, but he's you know one of the most consequential politicians of our time and you know exactly showing that he's really up for kind of experimenting with new types of Media lot of what he did during the campaign was go on these podcasts.

He obviously has truthsocial which is his own social Media platform and I think will you know as part of that growth of digital experimentation with media.

I think we'll have more sort of AI generated content being made by or as well including maybe even him and those around and who are experimenting with kind of AI video AI podcasting and yeah a lot more of the content people for years but certainly the past year or so have been very well got this information just information.

You're talking about AI generated content and increase that you will see next.

Do you think that we really are getting to this kind of very unsettling stage where people are just not going to know what to believe about what they're saying that you just won't be able to believe anything think that the way that we approach when we consume Media will have to change how we approach that so where is previously we you know you watch something a video online and you back that it's happened somewhere even if I might have happened at a different time and it's been mislabeled as a date you still expect that it's real that no longer the obvious no longer the case because you have really sophisticated tools that are very widely available Google just really something called VO2 which is essentially just typing a description of anything that you want and it turns into a short video and you know the video is amazingly high quality really presides.

You know it.

Just looks real so I think people will you know will have to change our digital literacy and not.

I mean adults as well and question whether you know is this real or not and what what does that mean and I think regulation will follow as well.

Ok? We got a little bit of time left to go and wild card so far.

We had some big themes, but we're throwing that approach out and getting a little bit more freestyle we want to hear from the three of you if you just have prediction ONE Event or trend that you think could come to pass in 2025 that somebody mm.

That's a hard one.

I don't know like a massive concert with like a dead musician who's been brought back To Life by a I only The Beatles and that's obviously they are still alive and they chose had a do it and it but it was Avatar Avatar as they're called but there's a lot of morality and a question.

You can bring back somebody from the entertainment is the area where you because the technology so good that that will be where you know Movie Studios and music for the experiment with we're doing that and they advertised as well.

What about you? What have you got for us? But let's say Jeff bezos is getting sick of covering the losses of the washington-based.

Could it be bought by someone like Elon Musk Charlotte that Donald Trump will fall out of the word of last year for me was transactional you have to say it with American accent transactional and I think both of them are transactional enough that that are my predictions.

They are not.

In 2025 your son is not going to have a lot of talking weather like the left will have its own Joe Rogan and my prediction is that because because Joe Rogan is already kind of like you started out as like a withdrawal.

I'm like this is just kind of this.

Is you think so, he's are give me the most popular podcast in the world.

Do you think it would have been possible to become that if his politics had 50 towards the ride does the world has moved right here to do the Joe Rogan podcast.

You know what is always happen, but this year is brought him interesting and surprising moves and I think you can see particularly in America but to some degree in the UK as well, the intertwining of you of media and politics is becoming more sophisticated and more complex than I think that's likely to continue and I think it's not going to be a surprise me if you see big Media figures in the US coming into politics or political figures in the US becoming major Media entities in their own right so we'll see but that's what I'm looking at form from Box it is worth reflecting as we reach the end of the program that the work some journalists do does comment great personal cost and 2024 was yet another deadly year 4.

John lists the international federation of journalists said that more than $100 have been killed worldwide more than half of them in Gaza it's because there are different figures figures become clearer as time passes.

You said there were more than 68 deaths or at least 68 deaths are committed to protect jealous says it's around 80 death whatever the numbers are a large number of journalists who have died just doing a job and I think we should Mark them and remember them as we move into 2025 and I can't offer a projection because of course these are just starting on certain Cycles flexo times, but I hope that 2025 can be better for jealous and civilians around the world and thought we finish this of the media show thanks very much indeed, so I guess thanks to those of you for listening and from me and Katie goodbye and Happy New Year goodbye.