Read this: Media in the new Syria, how to be an online investigator, can you copyright a vibe?

In Northern Ireland from the late 70s to the early 90s the IRA killed over 40 alleged Informers but the man who haven't found tortured and sometimes killed these people on behalf of himself for secret British Army agent with the code name stakeknife.

Do you believe in life music video podcasts? This is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in a minute will talk about claims of sexual misconduct and the world's largest LGBT website Pinkney a tiktok smooth with 6 million followers will explain why online detectives decided not to put their efforts into the murder of the United Healthcare CEO in New York

Is a leading open-source investigator who uses publicly available online material to hold the powerful to account as a daily Christmas tree to his followers forget chocolate.

He sharing weeks we can all use to find out more about the content.

We see online will get a lesson from him, but we're going to begin with the fall of the Assad regime in Syria and as I'm sure you've seen the early reporting officer for focused on annatoria military prison near Damascus Edmund H is a freelance reporter covering Syria for the times and he's with us Damascus Edward you have been to the prison.

Tell us about the process of gaining access to it.

I'm in the process of gaining access pretty much as simple as walking.

I'm no place.

I've been to in the region and so now have we been given but I bet it access to potentially sensitive sites.

So long was only known to the guards those who are unlucky enough to end up there, but I'm getting excited.

I think that the and it looks like Edmunds line from Damascus has frozen that's a shame.

We will speak to him again in a moment if we can make that connection but while we do we're going to bring in Benjamin strick then straight who specialises in open source investigations.

That's where you sift information is available online including lots of videos and photos and then I'm managing the serious story is offering a lot of material and a lot of challenges because we seen so much material coming out from prison.

Is that have been shrouded in secrecy for so long and that's the big challenge at the moment is really sitting through all of that information.

There's so many videos but also some of the have been discovered images of building layouts and things like that and all of these cases these are already ongoing cases that work towards Justice and account for some of those people and and many of the cases that have been in places like said no prison but now it's actually got footage and the 4th just dark.

It's it's difficult to place but being able to place in that prison really add such gravity and and volume to the testimony of some of the people that have now left there which is a lot of work, but very important work at same time and how can this type of material be used what would you hope? It will be used for this is going to be used to it Lisa support and give credibility and

Gravity to say for example witness testimony as to what happened there so it one day when they may be say a case in in in in in a cold room or or a case around human rights abuse instead of actually happened there that these videos can give gravity to some of the stuff for example the mechanisms that we used to torture some of those prisoners there.

That's what we really hope that goes towards and and obviously that's fine taking material that will be done not only of the next few weeks and months, but years to get to that point because I was going to say usually your work.

It doesn't have swiftly as we're seeing now this images are and material is emergency love always every minute and certainly hour-by-hour, where is you tend to take weeks if not months on your investigations.

That's incredibly right and that's just really to start of those investigations were they taken months to pin down the exact details of what happened where it happened what happened to also Who

Is responsible and often time that last question is well, it just takes so long to identify especially when we're working to the level of say international accountability mechanism switches switch off fine detail that will have to be tested out in in a courtroom one day which which at the end of the day.

Is is what everyone hope so it goes towards the hoping to go back to Edmund h.

In Damascus Inn in just before we do that.

I'm listening to it.

I'm thinking do you see your work as an investigator is a gathering of evidence.

Would you see your workers a journalist? Who is that not a distinction that is helpful when consider work that you and open-source colleagues do the be quite honest I don't want to make this exclusive and I don't think many in the industry.

Do because these techniques are a pretty to anyone basically as well.

Probably see a little bit later, but there are a lot of journalists as a self-taught in their Sarah lot of practitioners at work in open source, but there's also people that used to.

Variance cyber security technicians that I pick this up and work towards this I think what the gravity.

Is is that it's someone that able to legibly actually make significant finding work towards this overtime much of our work is with civil Society organisations and many of those especially with in Syria at the moment.

I made out of investigative journalist, so definitely no definitions to put on this one ok babe for the moment.

Thank you very much indeed benchlikha.

Staying with us at through this edition of the media show but let's go back to Edmund buyer a freelance reporter covering Syria for the times and Edmund Damascus froze there, but we've got you back and you in the process of telling us about visiting and Notorious military prison near Damascus I just wondering as the media gathered as many as if not thousands of Syrians gathered at that side.

Will you as a journalist? What other members of the media drawing attention from the Syrians who were there?

Well, we joined a pension from the serious.

I think we would basically working towards in a sensor the same goal I think of the thousands of people who went out of the country and everyone people who had and I didn't know where they were so much much as we were they were they were there sitting here thinking of nation trying to find out exactly what happened in a nice presents who was in London I think we're working much more lessons in the same direction example.

There is the second prison underneath the prison and it wasn't just trying this out there trying to find.

Thousands of people buried in the hill under the present self and it wasn't just civil defence workers who were making great efforts to thousands of people as well apart pieces of concrete breaking through walls and I think the company all about is this results in this tremendous transparency that you're able to say it with a degree of certainty that would otherwise be difficult time.

I don't think such a business.

I know I think we're joining closer to the reality that the thousands of people missing in Syria will not be recovered as you're going about your reporting.

Are you having to interact with the Rebels who drove a sad from power? What is there Media operation like in terms of interaction.

With generous by Syrian journalist and foreign journalists, I think we're interacting with them when it's appropriate and it's it's quite to talk to soldiers members of the party members of the malicious and so far and they've been very very happy the way taking an interest and very clean as well to project particularly image of themselves and stick to this is going to be an open country and the new government going to be like the old one is going to be asked questions, please and whether that's true, but at the time being next to me so much easier and Edmund it's Katie here.

I wondered did you?

Sense of how you and other foreign journalists were viewed of used by the transition government and indeed by the ordinary people that who are celebrating or and also obviously slightly for the streets of Damascus and further afield the what will probably administration may become more apparent as the sun sets the 11th talking really give the impression that they keep the camera is the remaining two people from around what's happening in terms of speaking to Ordinary Syrians it's we had a brilliant reception and it's a privilege to report something.

I just came back from reporting today.

Really genuinely grateful with the international medium having to solon taking the size of the country when it was suffering and it's worse times so for the time being I think the response for ordinary people and themselves has been how many talked about what will we see next from you? What's your next story from there? We got a few things that I'm in this country which they do not allowed to report for how many stories are out there in plenty of journalists were running around the Masters and rest of the week won't able to do before and it's

A period of massive transition and again it don't make any predictions of what's going to happen to look at what's happening really you should have to take a step back.

There's a lot can happen in the coming weeks and months.

Thank you so much for freelance reporter for the times, Edinburgh thank you so much for coming on the media.

So we also heard from Ben striking we're going to be speaking to Ben a little bit later about some of those open source investigation techniques which he uses and which in fact all of us can access at Ben's going to be explaining something more simple ones that are available but now the media show we're going to turn to allegations about the world's largest LGBT News website pink news claims to reach more than 100 million people across its platforms, and it's been an influential voice on politics and social issues for nearly 20-years Prime Minister Tony Blair

Cameron and Boris Johnson have written for it before he was prime minister attended its Annual Awards on now a BBC investigation has found that the one in pink new so been accused of multiple incidents of sexual misconduct by staff Benjamin Cohen who set up a news in 2005 and his husband Anthony James chief operating officer the company face allegations of inappropriate behaviour and Josh Parry the BBC's LGBT and identity reporter lead the investigation hello Josh welcome to the media.

Show me very welcome for those people who don't know was laid out a little bit at the top of this item but just explain what pink news and it's place in the media landscape is the world's largest LGBT News website not only that it's also acutely influential as you say politicians celebrities influencers all attended it.

Ward dead, and I also held significant political influence to they would hold annual parliamentary receptions and they they claim that they were really influential in the same-sex marriage which really is what gave pink news.

It's reputation and how it became such a significant part of the LGBT community so how then did your investigation into this very influential title.

How did it come about allegations about pink news and what it was like to work for size came about on x that was an anonymous account called pink news whistleblowers, and that's what it said.

We're accounts of people that worked a pink news and their experiences working there.

It was large.

I must say experiences of poor atmosphere poor working conditions and editorial decisions that were taken by bosses that pink news that staff disagreed with however what I did do a sort of sparkle conversation in the LGBT community.

Phone hasn't been deleted and pink me you say that it was inaccurate and defamatory but after I saw that and it's all the fact that have been deleted I started speaking to people who used to work the to find out about their experience and that already let me to look into this game and what was it then that you found an investigation of the investigation has spoken to more than 30 current and former Pinkney staff and they allowed culture of heavy drinking lead to instances were the most sites most senior bosses would perform sexual misconduct on on younger members of staff one alleged incident involved the chief operating officer Dr Anthony James and five people say they saw him kissing and touching a junior member staff who they have described as too drunk to sent will we have got a Small Part of Your repeat of your reporting? This is what one of them on the A34 man current members of staff that you were mentioning.

This is what one of them said.

Spy an actor we just got back from covid restrictions, so felt like everyone is happy to be together and it was a lot of alcohol that night like so much and people were not in the right frame of mind Anthony was just forcing himself on somebody who wasn't able to make that decision for themselves because of how intoxicated they were didn't have enough mental Capacity to consent no absolutely not they weren't capable of consenting to what had happened to them but a lot of us did realise what had happened because a lot of us did witness it but it felt like it got dismissed and the fact the CEO is married to the CEO probably didn't hurt matters either well BBC's Josh Parry is still with us.

Just tell us a little more about how and play people came forward to you.

Yes, so I think initially people did come forward because of that account on Xbox I've mentioned that really did sort of from what I've heard.

The strength in numbers to come forward and speak and it's important to stress.

He really that everybody that worked it pink news that I have spoken to they have a real network of all supporting each other sort of behind-the-scenes.

I've seen screenshots and I've been told about messages that they all have one WhatsApp group called pinkneys Survivors for example and so wanted sorted to one or two people word quickly got around those groups that I was somebody that they could speak to them as well.

I think it in some respect for their told me it's credit to the BBC Two they see that having the role and identity reported that they felt I was somebody that they could trust and they could also trust in the BBC they knew that it would be a further report.

They knew that was said would be put to out of pink news to Benjamin Cohen Anthony James and so really it was about you know letting people know they could speak on their own terms, but that it would be treated fairly and investigated.

At the airport about is that they knew we would put these claims to Benjamin Cohen and Anthony James which we've done and we're informed that Mr Conan Dr James will not able to provide a statement at this time, but we understand that position is at the allegations made against them a false and why do you think Josh that these allegations hadn't come to light before now.

There was one can play that we have seen a copy of May to pick news with not been able to verify whether or not anything happened as a result of that complained but when I've spoken to people at work that it was a real combination things and you've got this really influential website known for its campaigning journalism.

Really well known in the community and people told me simply it was a dream job to work.

They really believe do whatever doing in the mission behind the website and so to speak out in a negative light against it felt almost there might be damaging that cause in a way but also the

Personal relationship of the most senior boxes Doctor Dr Anthony James and Mr Benjamin Cohen of a married couple and people say that just did not make a for an environment that may be able to share any of their concerns because they just didn't think they would be taken seriously I wonder what the reactions been to the story since it came out Josh particularly within the LGBT community so since the story has been published yesterday and the documentary was on BBC iPlayer yesterday.

I've been contacted by more than 10 form of Pink new staff to share their experiences, but also the wider community has been speaking about this online.

They feel shocked.

I feel sad and because I said before you know it is a really in part of LGBT live pinkneys anything.

It's coming shop as a shock to those people who read and enjoyed it and believed him in what paintings did and because of that influence and that the respect.

Was held up in by many people what impact do you think your story this investigation will have on think news Josh it's not entirely clear at this point.

I will say as it as I said earlier.

We have put it claims to to Benjamin Cohen to Anthony James and two pink news.

They were unable to comment on this time, but what is interesting is the people that contributed to the two men that we made they are all kind of could agree on that pinknews was in influential that they believed in it and in the idea of the LGBT stories being written for the LGBT community by the LGBT community but the point that they do disagree on is whether or not pink.new still has a place in all of that some of them think that it could move forward with perhaps new mentor new processes in place other say they think it's credibility in this Arena has gone and they look into other publications to fill that space.

Josh Parry thank you and the BBC did put as you say.

Claims to pick news and the BBC was informed that Mr Cohen and Dr James will not able to provide a statement at this time, but understands their position is that the allegations made against them Josh thank you very much indeed that just Barry from BBC news now.

I'm sure that almost all of you listening will have seen the story of the murder of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in York last week and you may well be aware of the man accused of carrying out the attack 26-year old Luigi marchionni and you might also be aware that sections of social media are selling him and his attack the story has connected with widespread anger about America's Healthcare system and the role that insurers play taking decisions about what treatment patients can receive the speak to me a sore toe platforms and communities report of the Tech website The Verge me welcome to the media.

Show is it overstating things to say that some parts of social media are also almost.

Lewisham into a cult hero or a folk hero.

I think that's accurate.

I will say that the reaction online with as with all breaking news events has been varied and they're obviously many people who are horrified at the ceiling and I do want to point out that you know it's pretty easy to make a joke online about this even if your feelings your actual feelings may be a little more complicated, but it's true that there is significant contingent of people who are a bit in different to the killing some have even celebrated it and when the hunt was underway for the suspect there were some content creators who focus on things like true Crime who said that you know the kind of apathetic and that they would not help to find whoever is Amber going to have a discussion about those content creators in a in a few minutes here on the media show but I wonder if you observe what was happening on social media and then also consumed how the mainstream Media was covering the story.

A disconnect I think that the reaction online speaks to the role of private health insurance and in American Society Americans carry something like 220 billion in medical debt people lose their jobs their homes.

They declare medical bankruptcy in even when you do have health insurance after seeing these services is not always straightforward you have a maze of a different provider is and then your insurance company to speak to you and try to get the carer and so I think that means room coverage has a time failed to explain and contextualize the desperation that exist for many people in America trying to access healthcare and you know I kind of wonder whether the reaction to the playing is I'm not sure if it does much about the victim as it is about the industry that he represents for many Americans and is part of what we staying on social media of frustration.

Mainstream Media for not in the eyes of its critics covering this issue adequately why do you think that there have been used to have covered the health industry extremely well, I'm covered wrongdoing and the way the sort of Labyrinth Ian way that insurance companies make care harder to access for people but you've seen some coverage.

That is sort of humanizing one side, but not the other humanizing the victim Brian Thompson but perhaps not the many people who have died because of a lack of healthcare.

You look across lots of different platforms is your job title suggests are there particular platforms which have engaged with the story of particular platforms where you see some form of Sympathy for the murder on all platforms one thing that's been interesting about this case is that across platforms from?

Twitter nap call Dax tiktok blue sky Instagram Facebook there have been a lot of there's definitely an attitude where like you know this is terrible if someone died, but also people die every day because of this industry and so I think that's an interesting for me to see sort of some white unified are quite consistent dances around this case stay with us, but the story the story of The Killing has also dominated coverage here in the UK I mean today's front page of the Telegraph it has a topless photo of Lucia mantione it with the headline.

How wokeness turned a killer into a pin up at the Daily Mail please call him a hot assassin an independent Janice in the US is published managing his manifesto in full and claims that the mainstream media has refused to publish it so they're ethics around that and as we've seen the story.

Thinking about some mass shootings in the US over recent years where the media is taking a position that they're not going to put the person behind the shootings name in the public domain and I can put the image in the public domain in an effort to not offer publicity is some form of reward for their actions that certainly not have any that's not happening this time and we should say that it also hasn't happened in a number of other situations for example the attempted assassination of Donald Trump the medium a while.

I will look the stories of so important.

It's appropriate for us to know who is accused of carrying out a crime of this of this nature, but nevertheless it is interesting with the the person accused of carrying out the attack has become as well known as in terms of the media coverage the person who is not just interesting also.

I would say incredibly worrying I mean frightening.

I would say there are a lot of dimensions to the story of course with reference to healthcare butts.

Well in terms of how the media and social media have reacted and another aspect of this story is the work of Internet sleuths we had a reference to that just a moment ago or in this case but the lack of work my internet slow because many Media outlets have been reporting on a seeming boycott of the case by amateur detectives here's one tiktok video from the influencer that the Nash guy reading about how everything everything through dragons.

I don't have to you don't have to help you well to discuss this with joined by Michael mcwhorter.

Also known as the ant is an influencer and internet sleuth with more than 6 million followers on tiktok hello Michael thanks so much for coming on that you've recently posted a video.

I get to see anyone online posting saying we've got to find this guy.

This is obviously before the guy was found but what is the feeling within the sleuthing community speak to anyone the motivations other than my own personally.

I didn't jump on it as much because I'm unlike most social media creators who are maybe views.

I'm less driven by that if I see a story getting a lot of attention.

I start thinking about what stories are maybe getting buried as a result but I certainly didn't see other people maybe or driven by views jumping on this heater in a can't speak to their motivation, but I can say personally I rely on you know my audience or people to give me information to go through Cruiser tips for bring me and I wouldn't see anyone really warning to do that so that presumably did Phil on usual, did it?

Absolutely described it as it seems like the world collectively Shrugged right so horrific that happened which it is perfect for a person to be assassinated on the street.

It was sort of an unprecedented think that happen.

Would you see as a boy called thoughts you can call her that I think it was more just interest in engaging people very interested in the story and it was a rapidly evolving story that seem to have information coming out in every 30 minutes to an hour.

We were finding Something New Ireland people were engaged in that.

I just don't think people were is motivated to get this person off the street and I know you so you can't speak to their motivations, but how did you read that disengagement as somebody who knows that world? How did you read it? Did you read it for example as being related to this David and Goliath battle if you like.

Care companies in the little people in a great way, I mean, I don't think there's any one in America that either has a person and experience with health insurance maybe not doing what they would like it to do or thought they were paying for the do or having someone that care about experiencing that and considering you know the fact that they can 2023 stage spent 4.8 trillion hours on health care and yet.

We're pretty low as far as well to Nations on the quality of care.

There is a problem that is boiling for quite a while and something like this really kind of makes it like at people when I I can understand why someone might be frustrated and upset and driven to extreme actions because of my own experiences and Michael day.

You are talking about the issue and I know that when you have posted about this case you have chosen to.

The issue rather than the details of the Crime that was committed when you did that, how did the people who subscribed to your videos react if they want to hear from you on an issue such as Healthcare or they prefer you to stick to trying to resolve outstanding crimes engagement for the most part has definitely been people who wanted to have more of that conversation about the failures of the Healthcare system about what we can do to change it in fact if anything.

I just saw push back from some people saying well.

I don't care and I'm not going to help and we should go about getting this guy.

Obviously before he was arrested so if anything is the opposite was people saying well that just to make it clear but they were interested in ageing in the conversation about the assured Healthcare asshole.

Still here what reaction did you see on social media and how did you read it?

Wasn't totally surprising to me in to be honest.

I think there is this huge frustration with the Private Healthcare industry.

I also want to know that chickens live in a country.

Where routine violence is not just common but dismissed school children regularly or shot and killed going to school and strangled on the New York City subway, and this week the person who strangled him was awkward it and so it's not totally surprising to me that people might see which is horrific and I don't think anyone wants to live in a society.

Where is normal eyes, but we do already.

Thank you so much.

You're staying on with us, but thank you so much to do Michael McWhirter also known as TN4 inside thanks here's a question for you.

Can you copyright anaesthetic? I have to say before I looked at the story.

I was assuming that the on.

No, but we're going to look at this further because this is a question at the centre of a lawsuit brought by one influencer in the US Sidney Gifford is suing another lifestyle influencer called she'll for allegedly copying her minimalist look and backgrounds on social media.

They are both it's fair to say fond of beige and the whole neutrals aesthetic not O'Leary I Confess I'm an expert in but we're going to get some help with this army Katie we are because this is seen as a novel case.

They could have future ramifications for The Creator economy and me880 still here from The Voice just just tell us first will be haven't heard of them who are Sydney and Alyssa and just explain their work as influences absolutely silly and I are both my nieces and what that means is they make content photos videos of a post on social media accounts and the the videos feature Amazon products all of the

Or maybe have a call out at the end of say this is the link in my bio to shop where it just shows you and every time of your makes a purchase from there links.

They are in a little bit of a kick back and they're both young women in their early 20s are very successful at the strawman.

It is there full time job and there is the sort of battle between who gets to own the look of their content in the beige.

Yes, it's about who gets to only but what's a wise Sydney suing a letter.

What does she says she's done that has basically been copying her that she won't stop copying signia since of the look and feel of the videos and photos is beige cream neutral minimal look but also in the products that they feature in their content and in.

Submitted something like 70 pages of side-by-side screenshots, but she says that Alyssa ripped off her videos or photos after Sydney posted something and so Sydney's argument which is a very novel is that Alissa violated her copyright naat by reposting Sydney's content which is what you see for a copyright infringement by by creating new images that sort of resemble what Sydney have created and just describe what that look is.

What were the images? I'm imagining of Us invasion neutrals cos that's what we read about but just describe it that look that she wants to protect and indeed.

How they make money from that look so one of the images that was submitted to court when is a photo of Sydney with her phone in front of her face taking a mirror selfie and she's wearing a chunky cream sweater and one popped out to the side.

And just like that, but it's doing it and it is the thing that makes the images that were submitted or what some would consider a standard influencer fair pretty normal marketing content that you would see thousands of influencers posting and that is really weird this gets interest ask the question like what is sort of the what is protectable in influencer content is this actually something creative happening creative choice is going into the news or is it just the trope of the genre something like you know swinging saloon doors in a western film you would imagine if she wins if Sydney with this word open the Floodgates to 101 influences thinking will hold on I might have a case.

Yes absolutely anything that's why this case is so impactful.

Because if you get to the point where creators and influencers can see each other not for creating the same image of stealing someone's image, but just having the same luck think about how many people have that same luck think about how many people work in a niche online that has a defined aesthetic.

It could potentially create lots of other lawsuits like this or people are accusing other violating the copyright and one of the thought is your talking as through any of us, who use these platforms know that the success or otherwise of our content isn't just to find by the merits of that content is also defined by how the algorithm reacts to that contents of an algorithm is rewarding a certain type of content wouldn't that naturally encourage anyone who create content that platform to become quite similar absolutely and it's not just social media algorithms like tiktaka Instagram that show you content be somewhat.

You've already engaged with it all.

The Amazon algorithm when you shop on Amazon it sends you suggest a product similar to what you've already purchased what you've browsed and so my story I tried to sort of untangle that a bit.

What does it mean when influencers are working for an algorithm that is there boss and their contact naturally excuse based on the feedback that the algorithm spits and my stories of questions like what does it mean when online creation is middle.out by algorithms that they're only goal is to push the lowest common denominator content the content that is most engaging and interesting to the largest number of people ok? We'll just tell us to what has Elissa said about this was outside offence to Sydney in any way.

She said she has never you know sort of thought about cities content when creating it and another interesting thing is.

Says it's not that weird that they would promote the same Amazon products because the Amazon itself guides influences towards different items to pull out Lisa says that around sale Amazon will send her and presumably Sydney a giant spreadsheet with all the items that will be on sale for Black Friday or cyber Monday or prime day and a list of famous products from the spreadsheet.

That is mailed out to lots of other people and so Amazon's guiding hand is an interesting part of the story as well because it's not just that influences scroll thousands and thousands of pages of Amazon products are also Amazon recommendations subtle ways that Amazon will incentivise people to promote certain items over others help on that we appreciate it will work out for the outcome of that perhaps you can come back on the media show when we know who wins that legal exchange that's me here so from the Verge we are going to return now to the story we began the program with.

The huge news of the Fall of the Assad regime for years ask that oversaw the killing and attention of thousands of people amongst them members of the media with his full Janet have been able to of course report in a way not known about four decades in Syria and we're going to talk now to collude.

Help me one of the founders of the Syrian Independent newspaper enable set up in 2011 in reaction to the Assad regime's repression welcome to lead to the media show thank you.

Let's start with now and what you been doing in the past few days.

How are you covering the story ok? So let us wake up because this is a dream and we are afraid that we might wake up tomorrow and say that thing sorry for like it's a nightmare, but no how we have been operating is that we've been covering over news watching from a side doing analysis ourselves listening to other people.

But we rely on hugely not only now, but since we left Daddy yeah, when we left Syria and we were not physically present in the country.

If it wasn't here in the UK and Istanbul exactly and others in other European countries, but where they lie hugely on our network of reporters and investigators and site cereal for the information that yours and that's what's happened throughout since you're since you left and have you had so far any contact with this new transition government that how are they treating the media? Not yet? And we are still very conscious about how they are going to treat the media because I know that they have taken a huge part in the Brighton the country and like they helped us achieve the dream not only themselves, but also the Fighters from every and each city.

Yeah, yeah who pushed by the Syrian regime to add lab and then they were packaged there to do this libration, but why we are dissipating because we had bad experience the Salvation government and the HTS in the past as media so that we were not in good terms of them for you now.

We are anticipating.

I don't say that you don't trust them now because we haven't seen anything the things is to be honest in Syria the what is happening like I would have porches or covering things without anybody interfering with them.

They can have access everywhere, but it's still day to still to recenter everybody to digest what is going on and from our very previous experience we have been confronted by the by the the past shape of this and what did you find if you could?

In particular, they chased our reporters in the interior and they burnt the the newspaper.

Yes the other ones affiliated.

I'm not saying it physically it is but these people not your experience at that point not like not everything you know and now we add alert we need to say what is going to be that we still consider ourselves as like we do play a very key in the country because independent Media should be the one ruling the face of median.

How things have been reported course.

I'm not like as well for you to explain how you set up an ability because that was back in 2011 what spurred you to do it at that time.

It was very dangerous.

Obviously to be trying to do this.

Methods did you take to ensure you and your colleagues were kept safe? Yeah? Why we took that we take the risk and 2011 because we do the media is controlled by the Assad regime and none of you were jealous that point and that's only one night and he was detained by the Syrian regime in 2012.

We had very contradicting news about him being killed in their torture.

We're not certain within seeing the body.

We haven't seen anything anything like a factual from any independent like any trusted sources like the village in brackets that say so we we are in limbo.

We also lost a lot of lost a lot of other colleagues in the in the way until now one of them is my brother.

He was also determined in 2012 his first lovely disappeared and we don't know if he's alive or dead now with and with the news of the

Prisons being opened and detainees being believed.

We do have 200000 detainees inside the prisons and we don't know there are whereabouts so this is something just like like a side note.

I mean it's a huge tool that you have paid in that your colleagues have paid with a price of being able to try and Report was what was going on.

That's that was crazy was it and do you feel that it's been worth it through these 12 years.

It's worth it because the 23 people who started this initiative back in September 2011.

When was the Mere idea and people started to see what is the like? Why we are doing this and people started to challenges like others can cover and was like no others cannot cover because if you go from diarrhoea to Damascus most of my friends in the Masters at the early stages of the city in appraising denied.

What is going on in Syria and they didn't that we do?

Checkpoint tanks and radium attacking the Peaceful demonstrators in the street, I didn't believe it was like I used to work for low firm and I was the head of the petition offers translation office and I was late 3 days in a row for a 30 minutes because the security forces hold me and the checkpoint and when I explained to the office manager that it's not because I'm lazy.

I'm not on time.

We do have tanks at the entrance of the city.

He was like a no.

There's nothing in the Masters so that was something that ignited the idea and also the international community was not community but the international journalism.

We're not allowed to go via the Association was not giving them visas and the ones has not got themselves were taken by the regime and unfortunately most of this like the journalists were killed in Syria so that was why?

And we paid aware blood for the Freedom of expression now currently before they the fall of the regime and ability is one of the Independent Media trustworthy Media outlet for Syrians inside Syria and outside Syria and credible source for the international media outlets as well, and I think this is very worried that were getting included you've been describing giving your colleagues have paid a terrible price to continue to try and report on Syria now that the situation has changed.

I appreciate we are only two or three days into a New Era in Syria what are you hoping you can create now and you serious this is the hope so this is the operation for your publication what you think it can become so the plan now is that we like most of our not most every single.

Including the ones in the Masters who used to hide their faces now.

They are on camera.

So this is number one victory and they are back to the streets of Damascus covering things to do in the in patients and the preparing lots of stories about what happened during the past 2 days.

We are planning to read publish and ability in Damascus and in the first edition after the the full of energy so we can expect a lot more video a lot more live reporting from your colleagues and in terms of the situation right now this week in Syria where is Syrians going to get news? What are the dominant new sources now? That is sad has gone independent trusted outlets.

I'm not branding or just selling the anyone but how many independent Justin Alexander a few of them future.

Seeing updates are there but unfortunately some of the Independent Media outlets were forced to stop because of financial reasons or any other reason so they stopped exist but not an ability for the Syrian themselves especially inside the Masters and this is really astonishing we started to realise that most of our videos are being watched from people inside the Masters and I would eat doubled or tripled sometimes from people who they're not access and mobility during the times of the A-Team so your works changing but also your audience is changing at the minute exactly could I just ask you do you have any hope that you will find your colleagues your brother or at least find out what happened to them OK I forgive me but so we now in prison.

We do have a hammered my brother and the Bishop Vesey with all the rumours coming from inside.

I know that trusted Media is doing the work but we also we are also living in the area of tiktok and influences and fortunately some people things that they can create content out of prisons and disappearing of the families of the detainees, so you see rumours about like especially with the side layer present and when they free the prisoners from there you see it rumours about ecotronic Gates that they cannot be upgraded or opened but by the A-Team and secret doors and secret to whatever tunnels Dungeons and every single mother was aspiring that they see their kids in a moment, but unfortunately yesterday was a very tough day.

I was really worried that my mum and dad are going to stop in a minute.

Thank you very much for coming in such an incredibly difficult time and thank you for explaining the work that you and your colleagues do.

Tell me one of the founders of the Syrian Independent newspaper in a bloody which was set up in 2011 in reaction to the Assad regime repression.

Thank you so much.

Ben streak.

He was with us earlier talking about open source investigating open-source intelligence and the community that he's involved with his investigations director at the center for information resilience and van is still here and we going for something more cheery Ben because in the run-up to Christmas you've been sharing a video everyday on x revealing some of the tools used by the open-source Intelligence community and Advent Calendar if you like and many of them are actually pretty easy to you.

So so easy we've asked them to come and show us hi Ben are you talking to her earlier about some of the more complicated work that you and your colleagues do but start off with what could be described as an entry-level skill if we all want to try I sent.

Lol ok, we're doing a training session live.

I love this one to tell him exactly will have to talk this one through very well.

Well.

I think the first one and then one that I love to show people so much and quite a few people know it.

So I'm sure Michael's probably sitting there thinking of this stuff again, but they're simple image.

Reverse search and I say it simple but some people might might drop their phone to run away and close their laptops immediately and if you're on a Google Chrome browser so many other browsers you simply right-click and you're able to see a monkey options something called search with Google lens and stops up a little window on the right side of your computer that shows on the exact same image or other versions of that image, whether it's a different landmark or a different face.

Other aspects like that the other way to do it is through the search box with that little button on Google so that you can upload a photo into that into that browser and search through that image essentially just does the exact same thing that you're doing with word searches in Google it allows you to do a photo search and search for either the same photo or similar photos where you may have the same landmark said about the Eiffel Tower in Paris with other photos showing the Eiffel Tower as well a bit like this earlier.

I had to go with the earlier.

I put into one with the bridge on the Isle of Wight which it got 100% and just knew exactly what it was and then why was a mountain when I climb Ben Nevis the view from Ben Nevis climb Ben Nevis and it was pretty impressive as most of it said this isn't on Ben Nevis above one said it was a mountain in Tasmania but apart from that.

It was all Ben Nevis so the thing I found earlier this song.

My colleagues and BBC verify do an awful lot as well as you know Ben but so am I did a trip on the train when I was covering the US election a few weeks back and I took a few pictures from the train and I put one of those the image search and threw up a lot of pictures that was similar to the picture.

I had but actually they were the same place so and then I tried it with a different one some of the pictures were the same place but plenty words.

So what do you do? How can how can you take that array of search results and work out which ones are in fact accurate which do match the picture? You've gone which ones don't yeah? It's really good one so I think for those specific photos that you might have taken.

They might have been on the internet already unless you've taken a picture of the Eiffel Tower and you driven past which is very good journey to have on the way to work, but if you taking a picture of the Eiffel Tower than many other people have taken photos of that they've uploaded it online so it's gonna find similar objects in the background as well and that's that's what it holds.

Is that similar objects so if you said on the train next to a famous football player really know who it is and you've taken accidentally maybe a photo with with person if you want it to be you don't really know their name you could use that an image of a search and it will show those photos that have been uploaded on sites like BBC News sport and and places like that really identify the same kind of thing but maybe a different photo Rider a different angle of it as well.

That's kind of the way it works and it's it's something that we rely upon a lot as investigate this because I might see a photo on social media that could be old it could be out of context I could just be posted with nothing at all.

No context so really good place to start is well.

Where else on the internet has it been uploaded and is there more information with her? Is it and I would have photo or is it relevant to this conflict or context or thing that we're looking at right and what's useful?

What is an immediate before is is where you have a photograph which has a particular landmark or perhaps it might be a sign poster or just a lamppost or something and that helps you and others in your field to identify where somewhere is and that can be key when your family events in complex for example.

That's exactly right and we've often found that you know I am learning single day even from posting these videos across the festive season just how useful they are for people who might be looking at a B&B sites for the holidays and the image of us actually they found that that's not really in airbnb.pl.

That's a hotel but someone's advertising through so these kinds of things as well which is really quite interesting just to see the remit of it, then we've got into of your recommendations, but you're doing them everyday of December so people want to find all of them, where should they go to get them? You can look at me on any social media?

At Ben do brown, but specifically YouTube Blue Sky Instagram or x thank you very much indeed.

That's Ben stroke investigations director at the center for information resilience and that is on our up here on the media show as we often say if you want to listen back to this additional any additions you can find them on BBC sounds but for me and from Katie goodbye.