Read this: How to interview Anna Wintour, welfare on TV sets, where to start with Reddit

Europa to listen to BBC podcast but this is about something else you might enjoy my name is Katie lucky, and I'm in assistant commissioner for on demand music on BBC sounds the BBC has credible musical heritage and culture and has a music lover.

I love being part of that with music on sounds we offer collections and mixers for everything from workouts to helping you nod off the kitchen or even just a moment of calm and they all put together by people who know their stuff so if you want some expertly curated music in your life checkout BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in a moment we're going to discuss Wallace also going to be talking about Syria and the media operation of the Rebels who sees territory in the last week you listening a regular users of the website Reddit perhaps.

Recently because it's popularity is rising we're going to get into the reasons.

Why and I've been interviewing and a winter legendary editor-in-chief at Vogue will hear some of that and discuss the future holds for glossy magazines so legendary is one word for the winter Katie there are other words used formidables certainly how did you go about preparing? Was it ok? It was ok.

When is an interview on his reputation certainly proceed them and who all anyone asked me before I went was find out if she like the magazine boss played by Meryl Streep in The Devil Wears Prada I think it went ok, but I think my reputation is entirely undeserved alright.

We're gonna talk about how that was going to play some of your interview as well a little bit later on the media show but let's begin by talking about Greg Wallace all of you listening about the story is facing a range of claims about his conduct we're going to discuss protocols on the sets of TP Productions and the prominence that the media has been giving this story before we do that Katie

Summarise the point the story The Place the story is reached just a reminder of the main developments.

I guess it began with the series of allegations made by people bleeding my former colleague and Newsnight Kirsty Wark who said the Gregg Wallace told stories and jokes of a sexual nature in the cause of his presenting work.

I sent it was about inappropriate sexualised language this banijay, UK which makes MasterChef launched an investigation, which which it said Wallace is cooperating and he was stepping back well that investigation was going on but within the past 24-hours serious allegations have been made relating to inappropriate sexual behaviour his lawyers say Wallace never engaged in conduct of a sexually harassing nature but the BBC announce it will not air the Christmas who's that? It's already found that is already in Masterchef the Professionals which is on at the moment and building up to the final is still being broadcast to the point that we've reached Let's Begin

Into Jo Hemmings who's duty of care psychologist who worked on many reality television series Joe thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Let's just start with the conversations that you witness on sets and why they can matter so much to the people who are working in those environments will the CCTV with a very son edited version of any kind of show but what goes on in your mate longer process which I believe is probably a bit, but it's not showing the public so that you have a large amount of production crew for example of a lot of things going on.

I think some people if they feel they have been treated unfairly or collie.

Don't always recognise it at the time party because you've got a very young ambitious.

Production crew who perhaps don't feel alerted by or behaviour so people tend to think well.

I'm either reaction.

I'm being sensitive report it but sometimes later.

I'm gone I feel that something made them uncomfortable in a very busy TV sets of filming and then they feel that something wasn't right and I need to do something about it and in your experience working on sets are there opportunities in the moment if someone feels uncomfortable that to be raised there are some opportunities generally in a fast-paced hectic things going on generally it would be quite difficult to interrupt Building and less serious concern to say that you were not comfortable about something.

It's usually afterwards that they will think no they said it's alright and then they will.

Dance to the complaints and does each production company each broadcaster, who may be working with the production company have different protocols in terms of what happens if a concern raised overseen by Ofcom her the ultimate arbitration some of these things but generally speaking the process that you go through of logging a complaint that complain to stand up.

You know they have to have the accountability of deregulation process extract.

It's escalated.

That's why not process and is it a lot of sex would have what's called a welfare producer whose their specific need to focus on these they won't necessarily be on sat.

There is a welfare produce that who is designated as the person who oversees or well.

And it's the person you would probably go to the first sentence.

I'm interested even if those protocols exist and those people on those roles exist there be a point Babs at the beginning of a production was someone senior would talk to everyone involved in it and say this is where you can go if you have concerns is it given prominence not sure it's given prominence to be fair particularly on a show like MasterChef on a sub skill kalambay.

So rather than reality TV show where you don't know what's going to happen.

So no, I don't think on these tasks are series that they are even that information advise.

Joe is Katie here.

Just after an experience where somebody goes on a show is there a psychological toll for them as they weigh.

Whether they want to say something about an inappropriate comment or inappropriate behaviour that they've witnessed or experienced.

Yeah, that's a process.

So I can psychologists do post ex-post broadcast welfare sessions either just after filming and also sometimes just after broadcast that is me and I really should have rinse it and say how would you feel I'm independent.

You know where there any concerns were concerns immediately on production and ask them to deal with it.

Also get asked to the bits of the edited out for things that are out of context bed in error or Miss judgement and again sometime I can make sure that something is not actually broke up and do the company's you say yes to that.

They usually agree to take it out to take it out the problem.

I don't always know how far they going to take a complaint because I'm not for the part of that process and what about people might be aware that Melanie Sykes the presenter.

She said when it came to Greg Wallace she said I didn't want to make a formal complaint cos I'd spend all my time in litigation and I think that's one of the reasons why people don't go for it.

What's your map? I don't really understand the commons about litigations unless the complaint is dismissed or not at knowledge.

You don't really have much to litigate about to process the postcode should be complaint is logged the complain is then address something has done about it.

There is accountability with all this should be the great wall of situation many complaints over a long period of time and I felt it my ball and Democrats between a production company who very

Don't want to report back to the Channel the best been an issue because they will be looked upon perhaps less favourably by that channel for making future shows for them.

So it's sort of get some dinner system with a with a blocks and Company not wanting to get any further on the channel.

Maybe not even knowing that it's gone and a lot of the allegations being made about Gregg Wallace are about comments on set potentially attempts at humour.

You might say that obviously disrespectful and worse but if everybody onset ignores those kind of things what happens then is that is that the issue here that people people ignore it because it's someone in power a powerful person the talent if you like that awful world that were the two general Tim Davie has banned.

That's where the problem lies.

I think it is because a lot of production crew.

Don't wanna rock the boat then I put their own careers.

What's a very early stage in jeopardy by commenting on something that they find they see that they were considered to be offensive to go on which again makes contributors feel.

They are being oversensitive overreacting to situations because none of the crew seems to be back in an eyelid.

So you get that sort of situation and then you get something like strictly when they had the allegations in rehearsals and brought him who are independent to oversee.

What is going on in those rehearsal rooms and I still have filled one way around complaints procedures are not gonna be taken as seriously as they should be as they have I suppose what you might call a wild bear invigilator something who is independent who will be seeing what is going on on set all the time and come over here complaints from contributors or assessments are situation which is an appropriate.

How much will be invited the BBC and banijay UK the production company that makes MasterChef on to the programme they declined to take part the BBC didn't make anyone available as I was saying and we asked them a series of questions including how many complaints does the BBC received in relation to Greg Wallace what action is the BBC taken in response to those complaint has Greg Wallace been warned about his behaviour and how many times and why did it require media attention on the story for Gregg Wallace to step back and the Show to be taken off there.

We didn't receive specific answers to those questions, but I did receive a response from the BBC let me read it to you.

It says in recent days there.

Been concerning allegations made by the media about the alleged conduct of Greg Wallace many of which relate to shows me for the these Media stories of running alongside an independent investigation which is instigated after formal complaint form a director of the BBC and refer to banijay UK for further investigation we would.

Thank those who had the courage to speak out manager UK launch the review because they have the Direct contractual relationship with Greg Wallace he's not employed by the BBC One issues have been raised with the BBC we've taken action referring issues to the relevant production company and challenging his behaviour directly as has been widely reported then in terms of what he has told as well.

It's taking the matter incredibly seriously MasterChef world.

Welfare processes are regularly adapted.

It says and strengthen and there are clear protocols to support both crew and contributors these include ways of reporting issues including anonymously and then finally Gregg Wallace describe the allegations as entirely false through his lawyers and on Instagram James Ball from the new pain is here and James we're going to talk about read it later, but before we get to that.

There has been some criticism of how the BBC has covered the Gregg Wallace series just a couple of weeks.

James Stephen most bizarre that the BBC news channel is leading on Gregg Wallace with Syria as a second item what on earth has happened to the BBC and it's News values and you're nearly everyone and unless of course that tweet saying bizarre BBC News truly lost the plot has it I think sometimes people talk about this to try and suggest a story trivial Gregg Wallace is a very famous MasterChef is one of the most sort of popular TV franchise in the UK and has been for a long time now.

These are legitimate stories and belonging to mix it raises questions about power in the TV industry.

You know I first heard some bad stories about Gregg Wallace in 2008 14 years ago and a lot of people in the industry say they heard similar of people going out here as read-only was or worse production companies have no reason to jeopardise their main asset to a channel a commissioner doesn't.

Are you in a huge show IRA quiet and quite minor incident and when you look no the BBC has had a run of solve a different severity of safeguarding incidents Jimmy let the most seriously AdWords strictly Now questions on Masterchef there's only so many isolated incidents you have so yes, you've got to look at the world is a very busy and tomorrow night at the moment, but I think some of these sorts of stories seem to come from people who would rather we weren't paying a lot of attention to these and it does suggests it almost leans into Wallace's own statement because it's middle-class middle-aged women complaining it somehow not too serious issue.

I did I did think it's worth pointing out this does feel different from Hugh Edwards the address can understand that you had was directly employed by the BBC and it is your have been picking up a sense of frustration slightly reflected in that BBC statement in fact that their point is we are getting taking a hit for April

Is employed by an independent production company in a course the issue around this of course is that defend doesn't quite wash because it's in the end.

It's audiences.

See it as CBBC presenter.

Look and it's such an industry perspective isn't it you and I know the difference because we work in this industry to a viewer he is on prime-time BBC on shows that are warm in the news to saute suggest unfortunately the BBC is as culpable even with less control and what about this article it was an article titled why this middle-class middle-aged women stands with Greg Wallace and Rachel Johnson wrote in the standard.

I want to live in a world where people buying large and not cancelled by being rude and obnoxious or inappropriate to use the approved weasel world.

What's your view on that? It's quite it's quite a boisterous industry TV people have to have quite a thick skin and so for TV professionals who worked in newtons for a long time like.

Walk to say this is there this is not some people who can't take jokes so can't say we take this stuff and it's the people who complain all the people with the most protection the people who have their own brands who use their own careers established.

They are the ones who can do this without worrying about the blowback for each person who's prominent who speaks there will be 10 people whose careers are more vulnerable.

You don't want the public backlash who say nothing and that's the people to remember and were you uncomfortable at any stage in the laws 2-3 days when you open up the BBC News website or turned BBC news program, and this was the lead story over other stories around the world with some people are suggesting more important.

I think it's a no win for the BBC I mean I tend to look at the BBC's very fond of reported on the BBC and now on it so reporting but if you don't then you're the public broadcaster and you're letting yourselves off easier than anyone else so.

Think you're on a no win, I think maybe maybe this is got a little too heavy and over eggs, but I wouldn't want to make those calls.

I think they're fine editorial judgement and the respect the people making them and in my day job.

I think we are used to those kind of debate happening about where to place a story and some people don't agree with things reading the news and other people do and it's assume in this case the prominence would have been gratifying to the people who are coming forward and making their views.

You know I know from work national newspaper websites.

We all might think people should pay more attention to foreign news.

I wish they did but the view the audience is most interesting domestic news on the news of people.

I've heard of a news has to be relevant people to be consumed and that matters and when it comes to prominence and whether this story should have been as high as it was at times in response to this the BBC told us BBC News

The forefront of covering a story with original investigations and reporting and will continue to do so MasterChef is a programme watched by millions of people and the allegations against Greg Wallace speak about significant issues of Our Time abuses of power and sexual politics it is right at the BBC and other media report on this BBC related story want to talk about on the media show just in a couple of minutes it concerns are BBC News colleague Clive myrie, Clive posted an apology on social media earlier saying an apology.

I've had several administrative issues and I didn't fill out the correct paperwork some of my external public events, are they haven't been published until now I told the BBC I won't be taking part in any more paid external events in the foreseeable future beyond a handful of pre-existing Commitments so that doesn't happen again my sincere apologies.

This is all about him failing to declare to the BBC at least £145,000 of earnings from engagement.

He's done over 3 years.

Speaking events in the like outside his BBC work and the BBC does have strict rules on this.

Yes, if you work for BBC News ahead of any work of this nature.

You would have to put in a request for each potential the BBC then says yes or no if it does give you the ok, then you go ahead and details of that piece of external work is published on an external register and that in fact the Register where this the Clive myrie, initially didn't declare will now appear on a BBC spokesman said the external events register forms part of the BBC's commitment to ensure the highest standards of impartiality across the organisation individuals who failed to follow the process have been reminded of their responsibilities with regard to the register where significant non-compliance as a robust management action has take my point out that Clive myrie is apologise for his Arrows and they say there'll be published an update to the current guidelines soon, but as the current guidelines set out.

They say breaches of the process can lead to disciplinary.

And KT1 detail of that BBC statement jumped out at me just in the final paragraph when it said will be publishing an update to our current guidelines to add specific language around the volume of paid external vents individuals we be omitted and I think if that happens that will be new in the BBC will be taking a position and maybe putting some specific language around what BBC News please can do at the moment.

I don't think there is language around the specific volume the any person working for BBC News can do yes you may well be right and yes, you're right there, but there isn't and clearly there's a section from outside perhaps from coalters that if you've got a full time job how much time do you have to spend you know doing lots of events outside your current job but clearly there are reasons why people do these things we all do them.

I'm sure you've just got to make sure you declare them and that they are above board.

Not there isn't a conflict of interest so I think we're going to be coming back to this on the movie show as and when the BBC

Releases that specific language that it says it's planning on publishing next to talk about Reddit and the reason why is the cause of listing may not know but it's become the fastest growing social Media platform in the UK that's not according to us.

That's according to the media regulator Ofcom it is now overtaken X AutoTrader used to be called read it is now the most popular social Media platform in case you listening to something ok? What are the top 4 if I see if I can work this out Ofcom list those as YouTube first then Facebook Instagram and tiktok the other detail here.

That's important is the red it went public in March and in October so not too long ago it reported a quarterly profit for the first time as a publicly traded company so is both popular and profitable Wells James Ball from the new European is still here and let's just start with the basics for people who don't know you don't go on this site.

What is read it and how does it work?

Lot more old-school than other social networks it might be due to a lot of people but it's been around pretty much as long as Facebook and if you ever been on Earth online for amore bulletin board.

That's what it is.

It looks like that.

Maybe even like a comment thread below an article, but it's got lots of different sorts of subreddits.

They call them on different topics so if you're interested in foreign affairs there is very serious for a news bored.

That's run by one group of volunteers if you are into pets and Cat memes.

There's a thread for that you name it.

There's threads about leaving the USA does not serve advice threads in agony aunt types of heads you name it and the special thing about red is each of those Communities sets its own rules and there's some bassline ones that are in force to cross the site, but it means instead of just being one community you know on Facebook you follow Mark Zuckerberg's rules on xc40 Elon musk's rules.

Thousands of different Communities they get to set their own solid way of doing things themselves is pretty much so there are rules on you.

Can't illegal things he can't share images of child abuse there rules against harassment that are across the site that can get you banned from Reddit and you can sort of complain about them like you could on any social network but each solid sub forum has its own volunteer moderators and they get to set their own rules and so take the foreign foreign affairs one a comment pieces in there.

You can post a news article and people will discuss that article but if you start getting off-topic or doing random things or joking around you and that might not be fun that might sound horrible to Bunch of people but that's what that community likes and that's what they can do and if you don't like that you can set a subreddit that's that's makes it.

It's about foreign news well.

That's allowed watching what Mark Zuckerberg wants you to see I'm Like a Bird decided people don't want to see news.

So news is really heavily downgraded Instagram and Facebook now ask you to say do you want to see what people who pay for a blue tick say on reddit you can pretty much Taylor what you see by choosing which Communities you're interested in and because they're smaller as well.

You know the best reddit's have millions of people on but some have tens of thousands are a few hundred you get to know people in that community get a sense of identity with it and so it's quite different experience but it's retro this isn't you it's not a brand new concept this has been around for ages and it's been rediscovered and people are liking it.

How does it make money so as ever with the internet?

Play with adverts but it also has a bunch of other things people can pay Reddit money to say thank you to another user you can send them essentially you to say you know you did a great post though.

We like this read it gold.

Is is the most common and people will pay to be nice to each other or to sort of joke around but they said they've never made mega.

It's never growing as fast as the other networks, but it does seem to be having a bit of a slow and steady wins the race and gender describing.

It's quite particular approach to moderation within the different Communities inside let's learn more about this moderation with the help of Robert hpack who's a Reddit moderator a wired contributor and lecturer at the University of Iowa Robert you're very welcome here on the media show and why?

Choose to become a moderator on reddit already about the ability to tailor your experience on reddit two things that you enjoy and invest yourself a lot in the smallest that's what got me and other side it first.

I spend a lot of time in pages that are tailored to my own interests and I really felt that I wanted to give back to those things as I felt a sense of belonging in them and felt that I had something off at one of the things you can do one red if you really feel that way is take some time to try and make them better.

Hope sets of the roles that James describing or take some time to try and for some of those policies yourself as I got into do that.

I found it was a satisfying way to participate in these pages.

We felt that belongs.

So give us an idea what this actually involved you decide to spend a couple of hours working as a moderator on reddit.

You open up your computer.

What do you actually doing? There is many different activities.

You might take on across various different subreddits the most common activities will be very new content is posted by people who are visiting the pages.

Is there post on reddit or posted by people are coming there whether that's images or videos that shared comments that they are leaving and volunteers that the huge majority that stuff so someone like me might go on go to something like we animals are memes subreddit that James mentioned the new posts and comments that made their and decide ok are these appropriate to be here or are they strict rules cute animal subreddit depends on what you mean by strict.

We certainly will our something like the other than that not say things here, but what is the what is the most of the time? That's up to the people posting at the side and what happens if you take a decision in good faith about something that cannot card appear within the community moderator but other moderators within that same community don't agree.

How do you resolve that most of us have backchannel conversation going on all the time.

There is facilities for that on read it and off it will have chat.

We talk to each other and in fact many of us get to know each other and work as teams for years and Cal kinds of disputes off and then have fairly sophisticated systems to resolve the matter by vote for by systems of seniority practises in place.

That was some kind of consistency we disagree, but you are doing it less than you used to understand.

Why is that are used to do quite a while about so you tomorrow it paid about 50 million subscribers total across all of them about 400000 now.

So still the same as grown and changed.

I've also grown and changed and I like from the olden days.

Kind of the classic internet offering to as it's grown and more people have come in that the side of shift it a little bit away from conversation little bit more towards image in video call online website like Instagram or something like that in my view has posted a little bit away from the side that I was familiar with and maybe a little bit less going to contribute my time to it.

Dad was kind of work.

I was doing as a volunteer describe to me before as free labour for a big tech carefully and I don't see that is the accurate description either and relationship with these companies is changed in brown that started the civil bit just for a couple of reasons there.

I want it back someone but I do still use the side and like it and I still am around what I was going to ask people listening.

I thinking the same this sounds like a huge commitment one that you're taking on a lot of work and you're helping maintain a platform that is now publicly a public company that's posting profit.

Do you feel like you should I think you get different answers from different people personally? I think that's not what I mean it for a minute because I like the things that I'm seeing there and it became a job for me Wakefield this sense that I had to be here and I had to be doing a certain things away.

My boss's were telling me to do it and I would personally hate that I probably quit immediately I would love it if I had some more control over decisions that were.

That higher level of the side some levels in cord on these were the rules across the side or how many decisions like that initial public offering that read at 2 when I became a public company were made and those of the things.

I think most violent year is like myself would say they want some control over some sense of steak and control over their individual Communities and some sense of those two like being paid to do that work which I don't know if it would appear that everybody I I think for me personally that's not really you just before you go there going to be people listening are going to think alright.

I'm going to try this for the first time what one bit of advice.

Would you give someone opening up credit for the first time to make the most of it? I think a lot of people when they were getting involved.

They don't make an account they sort of work as it's called where they sort of state station by bus will be getting involved a huge majority of Reddit comments participation are made from a tiny percentage of the Universe and the best way to get something out of the Communities there is to get involved with them yourself and start.

The way out, I think you'll be able to fully experience for a lot.

Thanks, Robert well.

We'll wait to hear from business to see if they find it that way that's Robert 8-pack who is a lecturer at the University of Ohio only you a locker not really my question but actually involved waisted.

Navy about 5 times in 15 years.

I I read it everyday.

I read it doesn't of times a day.

I don't post it so I watch to be learnt from reddit's approach to moderation to think I think there are it's they never promised moderators a share of the company people knew that they were volunteering for a for-profit, but people got commute is out of it that they had control over other social network never gives you control and that's clever and also Mark Zuckerberg is responsible for setting rules for 2 billion offers.

Many others are on his different social networks try and find one rule that works for a teenage boy in Britain as a Republican housewife in America and a sort of Chinese man, you're going to struggle and so by letting people by setting a baseline and letting people do different things in sub Communities suddenly it can work it can be smaller it could be more flexible that I think is clever and that I think gives read it some lasting appeal even if it's still got these tensions not on this show I've been talking about blue sky it apart from gaining is pretty wrapping.

It looks like what they're approach to moderation.

So they're moderation at they've got ideas to try and do something but at the moment.

It's moderated just like Twitter was and they've got a small team who is now being flooded with a lot more users there are bots on there now.

I've had some spam accounts.

I had someone impersonate an old boss of mine and I spotted it was dodgy when she asked if I wanted to bike.

I wish she doesn't usually do you didn't say yes, I was trying to they're trying to hire moderators at the moment.

They're doing things the same way.

They got some great and you can kind of pick your own algorithm on blue sky you can sort of choose from a feed saying hey show me people who haven't posted much show me cute animals are show me things I have that's that's new that's clever but at its core at the moment blue sky is trying to moderate like everyone else does and it will have the same problems everyone else has if it keeps up with that was told that the reason I'm moving to blue skies of the see the sort of suggesting that they don't want to be on ex anymore.

You were so much better and Elon Musk has seemingly confirmed the X is d prioritising posts with links does explain that and what that means for the open web for a lot of us the joy of Twitter or exit is now was that you could discover call things elsewhere on the internet.

You know it was the new.

Social network you went on there to discuss what is happening now yesterday's South Korea sort of failed or toku I was a great example of a breaking news story with loads happening and blue sky it well.

Xx it's much less good for that now.

Sort of Elon musk's philosophy is you shouldn't leave the site and links make you leave the site.

So they're bad and you should post everything on they stay there and so he's not those out and that's killed the value of it to journalists to know we could say to our bosses.

Yeah, I'm spending loads of time on there, but I'm driving people to decide there's a point to it this in mind know it's deliberately moving away from it, but he seems upset when John Lithgow well.

You don't want to hear somewhere else does and I have found I post my article for the European on blue sky they get 100 small link legs even though I've got way for a follower is there people do still want and open web they want to discover stuff the Elon is telling.

How he wants you to use his network and that turns to struggle but isn't the only person in charge of a big platform who would much prefer that you stay on that platform arguably.

He should be moved x in line with how some of the other platforms have been for a long time.

Are you think this is their weakness though? I mean UK newspaper bosses got very obsessed in the 2000s with the idea of never linking out so that stayed on the site and instead people go well.

You're not giving me the best experience.

You're not thinking about me.

You're thinking about you and that's when users tend to leave you.

That's when you get beaten.

You know and I think it's these companies started going what's the best experience for the user they do better there sort of Desperate I mean that we are but place Park and Ride do they feel original and creative still tiktok does Facebook sort of feels like it's sitting there as the incumbent waiting to be beaten still at number two in the

James Ball from the European that you so much for being on the media show from the programme we're going to turn to Syria and one dimension of the development as I'm sure many of you listening following because rebel forces in Syria have launched their largest offensive against the Syrian government in years.

They catch a territory in the northwest of the country including much of the city of Aleppo and these attacks have been led by an islamist militant group called hayat tahrir al-sham or HTS as you'll often hear it referred to and we wanted to look at how HTS is running it operation does Charlie winter is associate fellow at the International Centre for counter-terrorism thinktank Charlie welcome to the media show what media does HTS I mean it does everything rather like any other isn't in surgenor nan is Mr insurgent group in Syria today? It has a spoiling network of

Owned outlets to Richard producers video content photo reports radio programing music and then also has a sprawling network of aligned outlets that sell tablets message amplifying the stuff that it's official advert making and just creates that really comprehensive holistic worldview that is trying to push and trying to change images at in anyway.

Is it using the media For That purpose? Yeah definitely HTS is a really interesting one because it essentially came out of the same organisation from which we got Isis and very good at using the media.

They were young and also went on to carry out a load of terrorist attacks outside of Syria Syria was a means to an end prices wires for HTS It Is the End itself and that transition over the last 10 years or so has been something bad media has been fundamental to communicating that this group that was sent to the jihadist.

Actor Mike Isis is now more run-of-the-mill rebel Siri and focusing on Syria it's priority is the Syrian people the Syrian Revolution and even I was just looking at one of HTS is channels Muhammad Ali gilani.

It's leader is walking around the Citadel in Aleppo surrounded by people who don't look like your average HTS member.

It's all about communicating that he is not just a military commander but a man of the people and they have done a lot of effort to cultivate that form over the years and what are we talking? We're not just talking audio and video are we talking about memes music? What are they coming out? Yes, so like any again like any self-respecting is please days.

They have outlets that a dedicated to producing music so that can be music which is specifically religious connotation that could be music which is specifically meant to go with.

Field footage that kind of thing means there is a whole industry of HTS main producers couple of months ago or maybe a couple years ago actually leader was buying falafel in a street and and that just spoke to hold of quite peculiar falafel content but these are just people trying to content that gets the message across and gets a big spread.

So what are you doing it in the recent advances of aside from singing walking around the left a video they been presumably Harnessing it for the latest offensive absolutely so Media communication in general is the heart of the offensive and it's it's as important as the actual military operations in celso videos showing hds Fighters and aligns Fighters taking over new Territories places in Hamilton central Syria or Aleppo footage of people walking around places that were.

Two days ago or Diego raziel angel territories that sounds very strong message not just to supporters of HTS in Syria itself, but also supporters of the regime.

It's all about your logical affecting and essentially scaring people into a state that they leave the places that are currently seeking to defend and we often on the media show about which platforms are being prioritised in terms of HTS it's making all of the different content but to its media operation which are the most effective platforms to reach the people that's trying to reach so generally speaking a lot of this content is suffering first on telegram and then from telegram make its way onto x telegram being a messaging app messaging out.

That's a bit like WhatsApp but also it has a lot of features which were a bit like Facebook so you can essentially have a channel where you're just producing One Direction content.

And there's no room for discussion there, but it's a really good way to broadcast message and media two very large number of people and presumably the Assad regime is trying to respond through its Media channel the messaging coming from the Rebels yeah, absolutely and the I mean claims that son of the Syrian state Media agency and making a absolutely not so mean just after profile.

They claimed that it hasn't fallen, but it was just actors walking around Aleppo pretending that for them and that's the kind of calibre of news reported.

You should expect from Syrian state Media but is very much a bath of the media at the moment in Syria with different side having very different narratives.

Thanks for taking appreciate it and sort of Charlie winter associate fellow at the think tank the International Centre for county.

Are we are going to turn now to my interview with Anna Winter and I'm delighted to say it we're joined by Hadley Freeman from the Sunday Times hello Hadley hello, how you doing very well, thanks.

I'm really looking forward to exchange.

Lights for the iPhone because you went even to be lots of celebrities lots of influential people in the fashion world and calls and winter does match both those description.

This is the long-standing editor of Vogue have you ever interviewed her.

I haven't interviewed her, but I have met her bunch of times and in fact written for her bunch of time so I do know her and when you are preparing for those kind of exchanges with this renowned within the fashion world of a particular Tactics that you use Hadleigh to make sure they these exchanges go well.

Well.

I used to spend ages picking out my outfits in that kind of careful devil devil Devil Wears Prada where they go to make judgement about my jumper that don't be scared of her.

I know she has this person reputation but ultimately she is just another magazine editor, so don't be so scared of her.

I was only because in the run-up all anybody ask.

What's the Devil Wears Prada is what you going to wear and stop talking about it? I don't know why I didn't because I've only got one suit that I felt with work in front of our winter and I went forever I mean when I don't know whether she's always can a difficult with the person in is there because they're promoting something not Just Cause they want to have some sort of conversation with the German for us.

It's an exercise in journalism and those you have to find some common ground there.

Yes, I would say when you interview an editor journalist.

I understand that as a bit better than I love people who don't work in journalism most interviews all that promoting something I wanted to get the specific point across and where there are two slightly challenge them or find the different narrative and it does know that the one advice.

I would give to anyone who goes up interview and it is to eat for how many time I've been right on that many but I got everything about me up for it to me before breakfast for lunch or something.

I always think ok or eating breakfast or lunch and in fact you never eat.

He's like a glass of water so definitely eat before meeting.

Yes, I did read a lot of things about her including into they did do that famous thing in the ft about you know over lunch.

She arrived and indeed any only eat steak and chips, but who knows as I hate.

Oh, sorry not yet, but I'm just getting into but here we are obviously she doesn't like to waste time.

So what you want to do is just to meet you and deal with the matter and not just sit around waiting for food afterward and then both of you going for your meal so she meet at the restaurant and then leaves so if you want to have lunch and then pay for a date on you quite right.

I agree with the film The eating anyway.

It was quite well.

I was interviewing winter because of the new exhibition bogan.

The runway at London's Leitrim it explores the history of a fashion Runway Show and it's narrated by Cate Blanchett let's just take a lesson for Life by teams of people and Casey what's it like when is a massive that word I use a lot these days when I'm reviewing shows in a place that is already hosted David help me I am one by Tom Hanks about the moon is a rather stunning experience bath screens sort of sensory event which shows the huge changes and the fashion world you get to see everything from the early early catwalk shows where only the elite got a ticket and then all the way up to the musician Pharrell Williams's show in Paris last year where we sold a billion people tuning online business names attacks.

I feel like having built up to this interview Katie we should probably hear it.

I felt that the history of the runway would be a very evocative and interesting and immersive experience for the audience is to see and to understand because it really does put into context everything that was happening on early night industry, but and culturally around the world.

I think someone who goes how many shows you get a little you get used to the experience, but it isn't one that many people do have that opportunity to see and what we were very very keen with the show is to make sure that you felt like you were actually there what I love about this show and I hope the audiences understand when they sit here is always reflect what's happening whether it's

Political or humanitarian or through other forms of the Oz fashion never never exist in a vacuum what struck me as just how is democratized elitist you had to be invited then, you won't even allowed to sketch will take a picture of the controller shows in the beginning because the clothes that would be shown on the runway was so frightened and they would leak be showing to others and others would copy them that it was very very protected world a very tight and now everyone can come to the party which is as it as it should be as much the history of your career as the history of the changes and fashion you come from a family of journalists.

I know you love journalism.

What would you say to people who argue that fashion journalism is sick of answering.

It doesn't ask the hard questions.

Sometimes I think frustrating to to us that working in passion that there is an outside perception fashion is frivolous superficial and in fact.

It's a huge business in a we give employment to millions of people around the world.

It's business and many different layers involved is a very creative business is very easy just to look at the surface and not really understand the many many layers behind what they see on a runway or online or on the Instagram account or in a video or in the pages of a print magazine or print this paper is there are many different avenues to present fashion today and that is actually made ones work so much more challenging away, but also vastly more interest.

Can you champion so many designers so many creative and cultural figures over the years through this incredible career that you've had your 75 you're still at the top of your game your energy seems under me.

How do you manage to stay in that position for so long and what still drives you?

I think you know what drives me is what we were talking about before having this fantastic platform that I feel very honoured to have I also you know love mentoring people within the company or without the company and I I think going away challenges almost what surprised me the most like lot of the initiatives that we've started at Bogor at come out of difficult times where there is no the tragedy of 9/11 trying to help young designers at that time who lost everything I think difficult times to make people more creative and think in different ways and that everything is easy.

It's not as interesting or you're not as creative and one of the big talking point is how thin is too thin we see these wonderful beautiful models in the show all of them very slim many years back you said and I know it was joking being very gently you advised Oprah Winfrey to shed a few pounds to get on a cover and she did you look amazing? Would you still suggest that now for potential cover style has the world changed well, I think of them because changed a lot but I think that's a personal.

I think that voice sounds very much for body that has to do today and we really talk a lot to the designers and to the casting agents about having more on the runway as we certainly tried to do to do that in the shoots that we commission whether there digital printing video whatever it may so we tried very hard to have Diversity and representation around the world.

Obviously there are cultures like some of the cultures in Asia with people tend to be much more actually then.

I'm interested in how the world even more so post Olympics has been so fascinated by the world of sport and I think is young men and young women projector vitality and obviously level of fitness and I think that role model.

Is body shapes a very encouraging and inspiring so I do say that we've seen some change certainly not enough, but hopefully that will be given if you put somebody who's at slightly larger size on the cover.

Does it make a difference to Sale does it suppress sales people used to say back in the day.

I'll particular diversity makes a difference in terms of who you put on the cover think I would welcome diversity in always coverage in this show you turned into a global brand how much longer do you understand the job? I have no plans to leave my job that was on a winter editor-in-chief of Vogue talking to me.

It was last week now.

I can't remember Hadley Freeman who was listen to that condom is the Sunday Times had yet wonder what you made of it.

When is very good at presenting her argument, but there's a certain amount of disingenuous, there.

Are you asking me about fashion journalism and pieces and see the fact that by talking about how fashion is often dismissed as frivolous and silly and actually it's an important industry.

Does are two very separate things.

Yes that isn't important in this can be extremely creative.

You know just as much as film or designer architect or anything like that it can be really thrilling fashion journalism, is this everything and that's my name is very beholden to advertisers there for you know what you were talking about the puppies is absolutely right.

You know articles in fashion magazines.

Can't criticise for example Armani they can't criticise Valentino because there's a massive advertisers in those magazines.

So they do ultimately end up being.

No more than what we now call sponsored content which is basically like paid for editorial and that is a problem and that's a problem in this show at the Lightroom the first thing I would say that it is I have no idea why I don't see what the Lightroom got my vote being involved in it.

It's not like a guy extra access to anything if you have the word vogon it really don't think that necessary I got plenty of visitors with the digger hockney exhibition without having the involved in it and it's not like they got anything interesting the equivalent to Jess is it not that they work with artist they work with David Hockney and they also work with Anna Winter on a show.

She's she's under the comparable person inside his creative process all we get at the inventing The Runway Show is lots of designers telling us how amazing the runway as well to be honest they would do that weather in a winter was involved.

Will let it onto the journey as with the media show just talked to us about how relevant you think Vogue is right now clearly she's positioned it as a global brand as I said give you the problem.

That's ok as witches from that all magazines have now is that nobody reads that you know that I doubt if there is anybody under the age of I don't know 35-40 who goes out regularly to buy you know Vogue every month get fashion content from Instagram influencers, so Road has a real problem.

It's circulation is plummeting they have cut down the number of issues there for about a year.

I would monthly I know they cut down in some places from 12 to 10 if she's here.

I wouldn't be surprised if they start cutting down the number of global auditions.

What about their digital offer are they not trying to pay that they've been pivoting to that well.

They are trying to give it to that but in that case I don't see why people in isopropyl of newspapers that was paywalls.

People pay for that content when they can get it for free mainly from Instagram and with newspapers.

It's probably my with a pay for the Telegraph when they can read the BBC in the garden.

It's not limited to but this is a massive problem.

That Vogue is not the monthly essential buy for a lot of young women who follow fashion in the way it was for me when I was so that's one challenge had another is the obviously if you have a hugely successful and well-known editor there are massive benefits for any publication in that situation, but if there is a question mark about how long they may be in that role and she said she had no plans to change your job is there a risk that goes become to intertwine with one individual yes, and this is not a problem at that originated with Anna Wintour before her you know decades ago.

There was a real and who was equally mythology revered and feared as an editor of Vogue but went really stepped down there wasn't this against prince that there is now and winter is in her 70s.

She is not going to be there in a decade I would bet that is going to be a problem for Vogue you know the most well-known division of Vogue you're out.

There is not some Vogue events at Vogue ball or anything like that leave The Devil Wears Prada I'm sorry actually quite a complicated question with a minute to go with Kylie my fault and not yours, but thank you very much for answering it reasonably Swifty but we've got to leave it there a runs at the light room in London King's Cross until the 26th of April and of course that was Hadley Freeman and before that Anna Winter and we demonstrated that is our time up.

So thank you very much indeed for listening to the mood for me and from what happens when at home DNA tests reveal more than you bargained for 6:00 news stories of reconnecting and rupturing families.

I just couldn't believe it.

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Buried secrets by the back of the ripples from this will be enormous.

What do you want to do the new series of the gift with me Jenny kleeman from BBC Radio 4 listen now on BBC sounds?