Read this: Trump's winning media strategy, Observer sale, royal journalism

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 today we're looking at how the covers the royal family after a joint investigation by The Sunday Times and Channel 4.

It's a how the monarchy makes its money former BBC News boss James Harding is here.

I'm going to his plans to buy the observer Newspaper but of course the big news is Donald Trump's victory in the US election and that's where we'll start and James welcome to the media show we're going to stop in a moment, but I've got to ask have you been to bed? How did you stay on top of it? All everyone has been up all night and can't speak straight well.

We'll do our best.

Yeah.

I was up through the night.

We had a look at the different outlets following on Fox going on CNN MSNBC

Not so much actually largely because actually most the British ones feed after us ones in terms of making calls and I'll drop the tortoises to try and make the news so we wanted to get the cause of quickly as possible to try and get a sense of what they told us.

We have we had in the night that many people in the media had one way in a very first moment you surprised, but you're not the markets have been saying the betting sites have been saying what the polls were really saying that it look like Donald Trump is going to win it.

I didn't people expect it quite the scared or and then what you spend the night doing and this is digesting what that means firstly as a journalist and then someone sitting in London trying to make sense of the world looks like down and we will talk about all that I do want to know bring in Next

Diesel so without his Media editor the news website semaphore Max thank you for coming.

So you're probably very tired as well.

We were just want that I mean it was bills this election as a complicated store his outcome might not be known for several days in the end.

It was simple Donald Trump won.

Why didn't the media got it so wrong, but I think the media a large part was heading it because the polls showed such a tight race that there is a lot of uncertainty attention of on folks in the mainstream media about getting it wrong again about underestimating Trump's what we've seen over the past several elections is that Donald Trump is his supporters are consistently under counted in the polls in so I think they were a lot of I think the role of attempts to ensure that we in the mainstream media news media told readers and audiences that looking at the data that was.

That we didn't really know what the outcome was going to be it looks like it was pointing in Trump's Direction by giving some of the other factors and other special elections in United States I might have them away in which the pores missed so I think they were there was some hedging going on news outlets that do not want to surprise that didn't want to surprise readers and didn't want to surprise as audiences by James Harding talking about what he was watching the US networks mainly but in terms of those various selection programs that were on.

How did they in the US respond as it became clear that it was a bad night for the Democrats and a good night for the Republicans obviously a long-standing fox.

I think it was a pretty broadcast on Fox as it became clear over the course of the evening that Donald Trump would be returning to the White House fox courses are very conservative.

Cleaning and it is a part of essentially part of transmedia operation on a on it all the time MSNBC the mood was jittery and nervous from the beginning from the start to see results role in the tone.

Increasingly nervousness and anxiety but I think one of the things that a moment of all the broadcast was the fact that there were no confusing results at all the it was an overwhelming victory for trump from the very beginning all of the precinct today anything that was winning at One Direction every all the information was pointing in the same direction of all the the early counties in the places where there early boasts of its role that I was going to be overwhelming trump victory, so I think most of the broadcast prepared for that James you want to say something.

I don't think that the media in this case got it wrong.

I don't know we're back in a 2016 story where p.

Oh look the Liberal Media L I don't think that's the case in fact if you look Max's colleagues Dan Smith for an interesting note about the focus on Joe Rogan the focus on young man.

I think people were focused on that story.

I think the challenge is for a media that realises the extent to which it's been marginalised billionaire new media the Elon Musk ex phenomenon that feels like the media story of this election going to talk to you about that but just to continue with you.

It is very early to perhaps but if you look if we look at which Media was most influential in this election.

What would you say presumably you would agree with James Harding it's Elon Musk is it was sent the amplifying Donald Trump's message.

Yeah, I agree with the games on that points something that we've written about I wrote in 2023 that this is going to be the flag.

Election the first election of true media fragmentation in which she know the Legacy outlet certainly still all the lads way.

I have large audiences and critics but a lot of people in America beginning with information from other places whether that be podcasts or YouTube shows or meaning of some sort of fitness influencer or something like that.

Obviously and trump he was part of the strategy to win over Mel voters when he obviously was yeah absolutely and contains a chance to do this campaign also tried doing certain lifestyle and in other types of podcasts on YouTube shows are in the women and non-white Bubbles but in the end transmedia of connecting with men in connecting with younger man minorities in oncology drugs with something that I think whenever whenever quite well.

And we were talking about fox there it was the first to declare for Donald Trump last night.

It's been average average and more than 2.5 million viewers through the election win for them once upon a time fox.

I suppose it would have been preparing to take up.

Its role as a mouthpiece for this new administration.

Will it see it like that or is that actually really now? Xx I think we've seen I think we see trump loves and consumes fox.

I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

He's a guy will be in his 80s in the white house and he has shown that his media consumption habits are very consistent and predictable he loves foxy watches it constantly he's obsessed with everyone down to the most minor contributor so I think that you will be very very on boxing on its coverage, but certainly I think you one seems to play an important role as either a formal part of this administration or an informal part of disability.

And I think they were going to see some of the folks who have been involved in too bye-bye transfer 3 on the X4 Trump's ideology a match to do please stay with us, but Clare Atkinson is also here Media reporter at the media mix newsletter Claire hello.

I want to ask you about how the campaign unfolded on for you, which platforms were most influential.

Do you think yeah? I mean I think this is you know if we talked about Mark Zuckerberg electing trump in 2016 on Facebook this is Elon Musk was really The Silver Bullet in the fact that he was spoken about at length in the trump victory speech.

We also saw Dana White ultimate fighting club jump up on the stage and and give a shoutout to Joe Rogan you know it's amazing.

I didn't you know it's worth also talking about Trump

Decided 900 rally is I don't know that number is right, but are those rallies were broadcast also they certainly connected with people it shows his energy levels and then you know we're all very online is day is everybody is looking at social media and social media with flooded with memes from both sides of the aisle and had a lot about Carla Harris strategy.

What do you think happened there what I think that means strategy was with good.

I mean she she was able to connect with young people Charli XCX at called her you know the camera is a brat and then they jumped on that in the use the lime green from album online and can a grand with that idea which I just didn't want to.

What hello are you know back because of that yeah and someone on this show actually if you keep talking about me and somebody on the show previously described Donald Trump as the most memorable edition did social media warned warm to his willingness to do stunts.

I'm thinking of him serving food in McDonald's dressing as a garbage truck driver.

I'm in those were both pretty classic.

Yeah, absolutely I think they were you know genius communication strategies are in many ways it helped him connect with the ordinary working-class voters shifted from the Democrat Party to Republicans you know even though they pretty like fake events it gave social media and media hold other things to talk about I do think you know what this means strategy that everybody's employing but we do risk just ended up in this situation.

Politics in farcical and we talked about humour and finally time instead of the very serious business of politics and you know what are the policies and how do they differ very serious for the campaigns involving manakula turned content don't know because you can't buy it, but it has to happen organically what about the stuff they did pay for the online advertising you know how much was spent on what make a was spending 10 billion dollar cycle if you can believe that number the campaigns in America that was on forever.

I mean most people.

I guess completely sick of seeing these two people on TV or on social and could use a break from both of my big you know 600 million + with spend on Google and meta platforms alone that base birchen Instagram and you know them you have you.

At non stop ads on YouTube you know what we saw we have foxes earnings yesterday, and we saw lachlan Murdoch talk about how the stations taken in so much money that they started putting it on the streaming service to be and that you know that strimmer is now taking in political ad dollars.

You know what the what's on here is the camera had the majority the money and it didn't work.

So you know that says that these are wasted money.

I don't know they might be holding you back in you don't make your own masquelier.

He's posted on x in the last 10 hours also you are the media now.

That's his message to some American I get a vote for what about against the media.

He's describe mainstream outlets as fake news for years.

What should journalists take from what Elon Musk and Donald Trump the same.

Count within the US but globally to sew Elon Musk phenomenon and to extend the Joe Rogan phenomenon is about new media Twitter Joe Rogan show on Spotify for long time people the media thought the platforms the publishers have the power this wasn't very clear personalities have the power if you think about it Spotify is Scandinavian podcasting and music platform, but Joe Rogan gets to make his own call probably quite different from many of the people in that company might think he'll masquerades entirely is a lot of himself without any of the requirements or responsibilities of the media within a culture of journalism and I think 1 things that we've seen is that for a long time.

We thought they were rules around the way termism works, then we can think what are not really rules.

Pensions and everything is not clear if there any of those things at all so I think that's a really big thing as a second issue, which I suspect applies to us in the UK in the where would we look at us? We talked a lot about immigration abortion trump and Harris on the both sides of that debate but it looks like inflation on the face of it a less interesting but for many voters more realistic.

Really drunk people at the Poles and if you look back at the current of the UK election, I think people really got this was cost of living driving a lot of voting intention.

I'm not sure if I'm not sure that landed, but there's a third what's the question Katie more than earth kind of an observation the gender gap in polling seems to have being seen through seems to have been realised actually at the Pope's by the gap between men and women 50.

45 in terms of the way in which they voted and particular month young man and young women we were being built to expect snow really god is if you look at what happened to the media over the last decade institutions have been polarised much more political much morning knighted States red.

Blue.

You know the pandemic and even in the UK it feels as though journalistic projects are becoming more like political projects and a question to ask you would have been historical about policy or political parties that gender gap also become a feature of a polarisation of our Media to something you said earlier about in and not necessary being Donald Trump's but one of his biggest British supporters who have been the same as you're there.

I said you guys got it wrong, but it all wrong again is what his messages.

Don't need it.

So you you're saying that.

Or is it time to some soul-searching? I don't think that I think if you look people said it was going to be close and trump was in the lead.

I think people said there was a fundamental problem with where America filled the US is heading you know the wrong track issue, and there was a lot of frustration about buying and Paris I think that when the water was produced about Harris campaign will get will start it will be much more around when did the Democrats really know they had a Bible problem? Why was it that came so late have enough time to Mt campaign or should they run a contest for a candidate that it wouldn't have been here and then they wouldn't have been the painting of being part of the administration one of the stories that the campaign for the Legacy Media certainly was around endorsements seen in the Washington Post lost the quarter of a million subscribers in protest at its decision not to endorse comment.

Justified the movie as a commitment to impartiality it looks as if he was right doesn't it perhaps to Jeff bezos and parts to commercial interests.

I think the reason why that cause such a shower actually much worse than that not just in The Newsroom the Washington Post but newsrooms everywhere was that 11 days out from an election V newspaper which perhaps more than any other has represented what it is to speak truth to power giving Watergate seem to make a decision something was so obviously transactional and say we're gonna pull the Harris in Dortmund in order to Curry favour with the potentially the next president a person who wrote the other day as someone has got a very thick skin in the memory of an elephant used to you can see exactly what they were trying to do their what did you make of How I met this.

You may be worth watching now because I wonder whether you made anything.

How UK outlets covered the election it clearly there was quite a lot made of Boris Johnson's a temporary sample on Channel 4 to promote his book and the region from the house about that.

You were watching the British Media but it was interesting that was a plurality of coverage that we haven't seen before I suppose we could say when when I worked are you supposed to work at BBC News one of the things that was frustrating was people wearing on the coverage having watched you know 5-minutes and you put together a night of 14 hours of coverage.

So I'm not going to do that.

I didn't watch it.

I was I was much kina to be honest to spend time on Fox and MSNBC and just understands and he will make a plan if I work for the BBC which is it's incredible how different it is watching channels that are so obviously partisan and a media landscape.

The individuals who can use the fame of being on here to go out and then you know plug and promote political candidates.

It's just a completely different version of broadcasting will let just pause for a second and think some more about chancellorship with my dad has famously it's been more difficult might be the understatement.

Just want you to have a listen to some remarks that he made a rally this week to get me somebody will have to shoot through the factors and I don't mind that so much and he is speaking last night about sending JD vans out to talk to the medium last night in American morning here when he made his victory speech going to the enemy camp of the enemy camp is certain networks.

He just goes ok, which one and see thank you very much.

Just goes and absolutely obliterated that was president elect talking about his vice President-elect if I just bring you back in from semaphore.

How do you think the likes of CNN and MSNBC which on the apparently deliberately Mis acronym? How do you think they should approach Donald Trump now? I think it's a really interesting question and I do think there is going to be some stretching even though I agree with with James that I actually think the media were prepared audiences for the for the potential that Donald Trump will be elected again.

I think there is going to be sunny all searching within the networks in the mainstream Media the Legacy Media outlets about who the audiences for the coverage in are they reaching all the

Reaching a large enough part of the country because I think if you looked at most Legacy media coverage over the course of the last 10 years.

I think it is Bonita neutral or negative.

I don't think it is particularly positive towards him in clearly a large enough for the American electorate either isn't seeing that stuff or doesn't care.

So I think there is some sausage in with the news media networks may be less awkward MSNBC business models really predicated on opposition to to Conservatives but I think particularly under the previous president Chrysler basically since the departure of Jessica several years ago has been slowly slowly rolling backs my discharge current position to Donald Trump and you'll see a pro Oasis on the network featured more prominently so I think I think there will certainly be some sort of places in the coming days, but with the audiences and how to reach them.

Is bring you back in for your view on that and let's not forget Donald Trump's pleasure whether it's ingest or not, but it's supposed to send reporters to jail and strip major television networks there broadcast licences, how seriously do you think that's being well across trump says lots of things that he doesn't mean but I don't think anybody should sit back and relax and I talk to some folks that CNN today play describe the environment as despondent you know I don't think we should pretend but most reporters doolin left and this is a huge disappointment for them.

You know what to do moving forward.

How do you write the truth and bright fact when the president is somebody who in almost every sentence say something isn't true.

I don't know quite how you Square that circle lot of fact-checking is what people believe that let's see Claire Atkinson next time.

Price for coming on the media Show James Harden you're staying with us because I want to talk to you about your major operation tortoise Media founded in 2018 as the name suggests it's News hey.

It's just you say too many museums are chasing the news but missing the story just one pack that for us to tortoise was born actually my time here the BBC news reporter, bft.

We probably produced a couple of hundred stories a day and I've moved the times with your eyes of the internet probably about 400 stories today the sea when I arrived here.

I realise with producing 4 seconds of news for every second of the day and I think there was a sense.

I had over time that it's so easy to be over and find it harder to understand.

What's driving the news to make sense of what happened in the world and so we set up tortoise slow news company really focused on two things storylines investiture.

And sensemaking, how do you try and distil what really matters and understand? Where is leaving and we just been talking for the last 25 minutes about the US election big news there and around the world a particular story that you've done on the US election that illustrates that idea I supposed to the most enjoyable One Podcast that my colleague Dave Taylor reported out on George Clooney's New York Times op-ed which was one of those things that happened was if you remember buying shows up at the CNN debate freezes and then there's was this bizarre period where no one other senior leadership in the democratic party could quite come out and say it and then George Clooney of all people wrote an upper and write an opinion piece in the New York Times

And I love Joe but it's time for a new candidate and open the Floodgates and what we try to do with show how did the most consequential decision the modern history of the democratic party full to the guy from ja ocean 11 and actor actor who had such credibility within the democratic party who had a record on rights and who was really plugged into the machine and it was a behind-the-scenes.

Look at how the decision was ultimately taken by Joe Biden under pressure from Clooney below and that was the plane that actually pushed finally for Biden step down and and house to step in writing about that, but what you're saying is you were taking a step back for about.

No, I think it's looking at those elements of elements of a story that are either unreported or underreported to actually Elon Musk as a sample we do the story of tortoise a year ago now.

Where one of the strange strands that ended up unreported the result of it was the Elon Musk missions people to run surveillance on the then boyfriend.

What is ex-wife was one of the stories that you thought really surveillance someone who has it turns out that was part of a pattern and my colleague Alexi mostrous, then do this investigation into Elon spies, just looking at the way in which he runs not a series of surveillance operations, so it's those stories that help you understand exactly what's really changing in the world.

We live in and the same time we do these days.

Email newsletters and and website where we where we try and make sense the world are called sense makers lots of reasons that because you got lots to say about lots of but clearly one of the key things is your plan to take over the Observer I'm in lots of people were very shocked when it was announced in September that you told to store in talks to buy the Observer the world's oldest Sunday newspaper.

Let's just kick off with if you succeed.

What will Observer readers get will they see any change to what they got at the moment should take 2 steps back one is just to say if you look at the world were at the moment the people who overwhelmingly are putting in money.

Are the Elon Musk to the world K2 you seen what's happened with GB news you seen on top of The Spectator the reason why excited as we think there's a group of people willing to invest commit for a long-term respect a little in the

Get behind the Observer and as you say it's the world's oldest Sunday newspaper was founded in 1791 and for people who don't follow these things to listen to Don't it was bought in 1993 by the end of the time in just over half a million weekly sales about 15 years ago.

There was a whole debate within the Guardian about whether to keep it or close it off old it into the Saturday newspaper that time it had about 385000 sales today.

It's a print only paper.

It's digital presence.

Is is with the Guardian of journalism.

See the Guardian off as well online, but if you look at that if you look at what happened x the circulation if you look at what's happened to The Newsroom you know you know shrunk by loss of 60% You can see that without significant investment.

Without the ability to bring on the best journalists without a commercial team with an ad sales team without an investment in a term digital proposition and digital subscription business and with a Clear Vision of the future going to disappear just on the way and we will save the Observer and I think what we hope.

We can do is say look we really committed to print the newspaper continues absolutely we're planning permission for x number of years.

We've only got a plan for the next five years and we really clear on that and that's for a very simple reason which is the Observer has loyal devoted readers and we want to honour the people who have been most loyal and about it.

We also believe in print wonderful platform for journalism for advertising for marketing the reviews and values of the paper but the thing is.

You can't have a declining print only paper and believe you can save your server is now you planning to put it behind you have to create something that sits as both print and digital online and people to pay for it in print you think I'll be happy to pay for it online what you an important that this has not gone down at all well with lots of staff at the Guardian and observer.

They have indicated by a huge majority that they will go on strike and the ballots have been sent out your also know what's being said that the deal was cooked up between you and the Anna Bateson is Chief Executive the Guardian Media Group on a luxury.

Yacht or some such while you're on holiday together is that true so have you been on holiday with animator so the so I've done about some 4 years actually got to know when I was working at the BBC remind me to me Observer started actually in about 2013 and worked at the Times if you remember this a bit of a backstory, but I got sacked for.

Times does a falling out with Rupert Murdoch over coverage of phone hacking and at that time before I join the BBC I was approached by people who said I maybe we should look at my paper and at that time the one that we looked at most closely with the Observer so in the years since I've I've talked to people about it.

I've always asked you know what's going to happen with your cervix.

Did you know what happened was actually the end of last year and there is nothing this important is this is a title at journalists people in the Arts readers.

Love and believe in we won't to save it.

We want to make sure that we doing that has thoughtfully and thoroughly is processed processed.

So we first went to our board my chairman and Ivan approach their chairs over child the Guardian

Trust those chairs they referred to their boards their boards then independent financial advisors to help us negotiate the outlines of the important point and I know that's not around it's important to understand this really is a good deal process at an and responsible governance and doing this right.

How do you propose to find that because tortoise recorded an operating loss of 4.6 million pounds in your last full accounts in 2022.

Have you actually got the money and we think this is a moment.

You know haven't hasn't been a Consortium of investors who got behind progressive responsible evidence based journalism descaling probably a generation.

It's a group of investors.

So no one has an overall majority even a share that means they can block the systems enables.

Saudi Arabia sources of funding and the reason that you so leave investor 11 of eyelid.

Investors is based in United States from standard Investments they've back some of the new media businesses in the US things like Park airmail pushkin another one of the investors is based here in the UK is a phone call this day.

It's the philanthropic and impact investment arm of Michael Gary lubner.

Some distance will know him.

He is the biggest flying around migration but also donors to the Labour Party and we have a group of investors whose back tortoise from the start and again there a mix of private individuals firms, but no there's there's no private equity and the reason that matters the reason people ask that question is are does that mean that you're really trying to calibrate and flip this seller quickly.

We're in it for the long time and you'll be aware of course.

I've been virus.

Open letters written one there people including the likes of Hugh Grant re-find Lesley manville in Andover letter asking how can a loss making startup afford to take over the world oldest Sunday paper and succeed have you got your investment for the long-term? Have you got all 25 million that you're staying over 5-years? Have you got that already? So we on the financial we have the Investment we meet you at the minute.

So we've committed to invest 25 million pounds over 5-years.

We front-load most of that investment.

I will most of it in the first couple of years will will make sure that most of the fresh capital then goes in and out period in the outer unit 28-29 will also look to invest the the use of the prophets that should come out of the business by then.

What we have is the financing and plays that the 5 million enough.

The conversation is the fresh capital and also a commitment from our investors that there's no money that goes back to them the money that we make from the Observer goes back into investing in the Observer and the reason I think it's important which is this is money that is being invested in the journalist.

We think that if you want to really save you deserve her the greatness of our paper has been the observers have been the the names the writer's the satirists the artists that continued business have international coverage completely so we are if you if you grew up as I did with the Observer you know that it's been one of the greatest names in for recovery and the reason we care about is and the reason that I'm keen that people who like us care about the Observer see this is these days the observed doesn't have its own for a new?

It again for news feed from guardian journalists likewise, no one on business likewise, no one on sport.

We think that journalism and the the the the variety and range of voices in this country will be better if you have not just the Guardian speaking for liberal progressive journalism, but the Observer and the risk when you compete with them.

Will it in the end? Will they they they already say there is 7-day operation is it likely that they'll be competing with if you succeed because you couldn't possibly take the Observer and the Guardian the Guardian is a 24/7 news operation it produces hundreds of stories runs a global operation in the Observer is the observed to be making a Sunday newspaper with some with some tortoise involved with we will be together.

We'll have one brand the Observer you'll have

And they will have an effect Digital Editions a daily digital edition, but we're not talking about doesn't and doesn't say stories with talking about a dozen also pieces that you might want to read listen to watch each day that make you think I get what the Observer does it gives me that exceptional thing informed opinion evidence documents investor reporting the thing about you.

That is really special and different from any other paper her is it cares as much about the Arts about food about about life as it does about quality and land use on the world, so we think that there's an opportunity to say take something that this is currently stand is set to disappear and actually invested renew it and I think really likes and are you paying the Guardian any money but you're paying them for the Observer if you do this, so we are in the

The moment so all of that is something for the Guardian Brothers there's no I'm sorry and I know one of these are exercise about you the Guardians emailing people and email him he doesn't email them back today talking about you.

No promising little stand up from four more years of Donald Trump and eventually asking for money from readers to say we do this kind of jealous.

I'm going to stand up to Donald Trump and they say it's coming on these observa platform-as-a-service pieces on volume website that pops this thing and they're saying how long is coming towards us then you're going to be putting it kind of people think we are talking about different models one of the reasons why I think the Guardian and observer will really complimenting software is first the editorially they are different you know I mean one thing that sticks talking about yourself.

It's been within the Guardian for 30 odd years.

But it's cultural to stubbornly independent news room with a view of its own and it's it's a progressive paper, but it's not party political in this in this and I think this is the one that will ensure that the Observer you know it's easier to wear well into the 21st century.

It has a different business model.

It's not the Guardian business model which is donations.

You know readers give into it is it's a subscription model and we seen the best journalism in the world whether it's the New Yorker of the New York Times or the Atlantic or the ft or spectate ordered site has exceeded when there's been a print and digital subscription subscription model we do have a James Harding as a former director of news here at the BBC News chairman.

Will the BBC chairman to me yesterday? I think it was all I'm getting confused with how many days we had shared his Vision and priorities in a speech at his first speech.

The role 8 months ago and there were several eye-catching proposals and one of them was he called for a permanent BBC charter to shield the BBC from government interference at the moment of the current system is the news every decade do you recognise the description of what he's trying to avoid he called it a sense of almost perpetual government review over the BBC I thought it was such an important and timely and necessary speech because there's an opportunity now for us to look at the media landscape.

Look at notice Dixon Twitter but the streamers the fundamental changes and say how much will you want the BBC and I think the answer is we want a BBC that is struggling to all that still has the scrutiny that is required of an organisation as powerful as this but the reality is the BBC is almost constantly in a process of either.

Reviewing proposing implementing or making the case for its own future and if you could move to a world in which you had a permanent establishment of the PCL I say still with still with the oversight that matters wouldn't it? Put the BBC beyond the reach of elected leaders and maybe that's not right for the BBC when it's funded by the tax and all that you wouldn't I think it's too much healthy relationship.

So you know if you look at Channel 4 that there are two ways of doing if you either do it through a Charter you might have the university or as we're Channel 4 established as a corporation.

It's still has to it's still the remit of Parliament to oversee its future, but I think there's something healthy about the BBC permanently established and not if you like on an endless lease agreement with the government having to go back to the government every 10 years and some

More frequently than that and make the case that it has a place in British and and the world's life.

I think it's a enormously valuable and important part of what we are the country and most things are better these days when they had the roots now on Saturday night the Sunday Times and Channel 4 dispatches programme released a joint investigation into the secret wealth of the royals including business practices is alleged assistant with their public statements or inconsistent.

I apologise for their public statements on issues like the environment today of course Prince William is in Cape Town South Africa presenting the earthshot prize which was in 2020 to fix humanity's biggest climate problems will let start with Alastair Jackson who oversees investigations at Channel 4 including this one and Alistair just let it out for us.

Why did you?

How to make this dispatches programme this this started some months ago when they produce that's well known to his death Atkinson from vera came in with saying he 5000 documents from the land registry now.

I can't say that are heart raced at that point you know but when we talk to that a bit more closely with somebody had actually was somebody the Parliament to try to get hold of so that's the way back in 2005 that was a start, but it was only a start and then you know we took those 5000 pull them out from the land registry analysing the leases to actually get this first-ever portrayal of what these two Estates Lancaster and Cornwall own and we will get to the what you actually found out with you might need to just to find a few terms cause lots of people won't know that Lancaster and Cornwall actually, I will do just just explain that first.

Who owns them? What they do and are they taxpayer-funded of the King Charles Cornwall now of Prince Will and they used largely to fund their private income and 180000 on a cos.

They're really what's what's been left when when the estate was handed to the Treasury 700 years ago so that you can call them the private fiefdoms and then now massive property got companies that generates income tax or capital gains tax what the program discovered in terms of ownership and how many books made it raises within the program for big questions about whether that is available that tax exemption is sustainable.

Finding them from your investigation for people who have watched it.

Haven't read it in the Sunday Times so far and we start with the public bodies that reportedly play rental income.

What did you find you start from the both of these organisations effectively saying terms.

They don't rely on taxpayers money then we discovered NHS Trust Bank 11 million lb in rent the Ministry of Justice paying for Dartmoor prison and paying for it's upkeep the navy paying into pounds tomorrow.

It's own warships charities that the king is paying paying millions of pounds in in rent the ferry in Liverpool paying a fee to more it's a on underseal and wind farms trying to run cables across the foreshore, so I think if you know it was the spread of things that was surprising and and those organisations a mention of course.

I'll probably be in receipt of public funds.

And also I D Wilson in The Documentary raise concerns about the environmental impact of the estates business dealings obviously, I'm I'm basing that because as I said at the Beginning William is in South Africa at the Earth's climate fries.

I guess you can't because of the Dutch is ownership of mineral rights under under the ground at Close involvement with mining down in the Duchy of Cornwall land in Lancaster obviously not all but some of these are some of the mines.

Have a controversial aspect to them in terms of their maintenance the environment we hear from people on the ground at said this was a real contradiction living next to these places and then another aspect of the film with you actually works on with the mirror was the Duchess role.of Cornwall role as a landlord with private residence is not being compliant with regulations designed to improve the environmental footprint of of properties and I'm actually renting out.

Properties that William breach of the government regulations in the worst worst defending properties in the country make a probably just say I said we're responsible committed to continuous improvement of properties.

We work closely with our tenants the actor the address energy efficiency of properties across our portfolio, they also said on the issue of mining that the Dutch was acting response and in a sustainable way in line with the government's industrial strategy, but I Wonder For You Alistair how difficult first was it to get access.

I know they turned up with the how difficult had it because clearly MPs have tried to get hold of this information in the past and fail.

How hard was it to get those documents the producer I mention to the long interest in this subject.

I think it was probably his his stamina really that got hold of these documents but actually you're amazing interesting point getting the document was one thing again in the documents.

It was the analysis there after which was the was the the labor-intensive after that we partnered with the Sunday Times insight team we have my investigations team at Channel 4.

It was really that examination of associated Lisa's associated rent pulled out the guts of the story.

I must be in the reaction process three or 4 months work has been reaction to it since in terms of getting of the coverage, but I think this is really interesting so so in terms of the program is the highest watched shows last weekend on Channel 4 dispatches this year getting a million views now.

Just before game on now.

I got the latest figures for interactions on social media 13.6 million views across all platforms with the film got a lot of God of comments.

Love commentary monks commentators in the papers, but in many other aspects.

It's kind of been avoided listening to a paper review.

Sunday morning on Radio 4 this is a story that was on two front pages not not mentioned over 14 minutes and as far as I'm aware of the TV and radio buttons on the BBC to the down the world that you know why is why is this not been picked up in Earnest by the Royal Beach by Royal especially the time on behaving documentaries from William about fighting homelessness is overseas and write on his own die mental campaigns there lots of questions from this film and I'll just be interested to know royal Correspondents you have that I'd like to bring in Jennie Bond who is a broadcast that was a former.

I was on BBC World correspondent hello Jenny thank you for coming on the program.

I wonder what you think of what Alexa Jackson's been saying what your reaction to these findings is a very comprehensive.

For 36 years but I was really shocked by some of the findings and I was also extremely surprised that I wasn't flooded with requests because normally when was big news news wants to do it, but why not I think probably call tiling by Channel 4 of the schedule because it's such a busy news.

We had the floods of course in Spain we had the American election we had all sorts of dramas going on.

I think you just got knocked off the Conspiracy theorists might say surely this was a good time Williams in Africa documentary are going on private I'm fighting homelessness.

You could say this is this is the perfect time to discuss these issues you think it should have been there was very surprised and I think a lot of what you are covered needs further investigation and action by the royal family and action by Prince William I thought you're just position of William talking about environment saving the planet and then a Dying light the Exploding in the Duchy of Cornwall and blowing up parts of this area of outstanding natural beauty, and it was it was very uncomfortable indeed.

I would think that it William to watch that jelly want you think this kind of scoop could have come from a royal correspondent conspiracy theories might say people can't do that because you're well.

Just looking today people have been getting interviews with Prince William today because of the earthshot prize but actually if you run the story or done Mr yourself, you might have not been given access as a rock.

Maki touring in to that key interview I think that you're so busy.

I really can't tell you how busy it is 1 minutes at the castle bonfire people are leaving the royal family.

I mean it is an incredibly busy and there is not time to go through or discover 5000 documents and then analysed and a good enough job though of scrutinising the monarchy royal correspondent Jennie Bond time, they had four team to do it another royal correspondent, how much access did you actually get to the royals?

Discussions one-to-one much more Diana not much with with the queen, but I mean I suppose you could say to your yes a long chat she told me everything that was in Panorama 5 months before Panorama as I left it on each occasion that we have discussed just between you and me these corresponded to do I mean you're going to burn all your Bridges with your contacts will principal so I use that those what's between former reports without saying all the Panorama were able able to say talking about I'm interested in recovery to cross the Atlantic it's not obviously just the Legacy Media interest in all things royal.

I'd like to bring in Kinsey Schofield Los angeles-based host the podcast to die for Dale

Spelt d i like Princess Diana you can have your own YouTube channel, Kinsey Schofield unfiltered both of which cover at the latest royal news annual commentator on TV Talk TV and Fox News to tell me in the last 3 minutes that we've got when did you first become interested in in the British royal family so I would say as a child in the south that was some we were all very fixated on I did want to stay in regards to the story.

We've been covering while 13 million people across social media you engaged in Ennis most recent documentary 17 million people watched Harry and Meghan live and I think one of the answer to your question.

Why is this not getting more attention is because engine Spencer so small and we fixing on the pedal and and when I mean.

I don't know if Jenny would agree with me but if Meghan Markle walks outside that's breaking news in this Arena and I wonder if

Because sometimes our Focus is so shallow and especially when it comes to American media covering the royal family if these serious stories get buried based on the a do you ever can did you ever do negative stories? Do you cover them negative stories about the royals and and how does that go down with the audiences? I do you know I I was critical of the prince and princess of Wales when they release the Mother's Day photo.

I thought it was a PR nightmare and I received a lot of negative feedback at the time.

It's a polarising topics to cover it feels like you're you have to pick a side and if you don't pick a side your considered the enemy but you know if I do see I missed up.

I do try to point it out and I've got to ask you haven't got very long, but I'm always intrigued by why somebody American would get excited interest in the rules and covering them.

You know what how did you have a role for yourself in the US something new you.

Yourself to London on your own time.

I think in order to get into this business.

Tell me about that several times.

Yeah, that's my credit card is my credit card has some thoughts? Yeah? I just I wasn't morning news anchor and boys anacap sneaking royal stories into our coverage and decided I blanch a website in podcast because I realise that this is my passion.

You've seen her polarising or elections and how beautiful that you have a monarchy that everybody can get behind on everybody not everybody behind you here in the UK but a lot of people behind you know I just I think of that something really admirable and beautiful I appreciate the tradition ok.

Well, we can keep talking but unfortunately I think we can't because we have run out of time.

Thank you so much too Alister Jack Jennie Bond and Kenzie they're just talking to me at and thank you all for listening to the media show it will be Ros Atkin and I back next week, but thank you so much for your company.

goodbye