Read this: Ballots, bias and big tech

2024 presidential election in the US election investigations will guide you through all the key moments as the United States chooses which direction to go in next navigate your way to election day and beyond America listen on BBC sounds BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4.

Hello and welcome not just to the media show welcome also to Lafayette park.

Just in front of the White House in Washington DC and as I'm talking to you if you can hear some work.

That's all part of the preparations ahead of the Day of the presidential inauguration in January but of course we got an election to get through before that.

I'm in Washington as part of the BBC's coverage all the way through till election day next week and on this edition of the media show we're going to get into the array of issues with this US election about how the media tech and politics intertwine in American life.

There is a lot to get into will take her subjects one-by-one.

Let's start with lorry just down the road from here at the Washington Post the story that has caused a four or two Began on Friday morning.

I'll let David folkenflik from NPR pick this up.

Turn on Friday morning about 8:45 Eastern time we reported within try that the editorial page editor of the Washington Post David Shipley had informed in a contentious with riders for the post that there would be no endorsement know this was a shock in the sense that others have been growing concern that one is not been forthcoming from the paper the paper has resolutely reporting about alleged wrongdoing then potentially legalities by trump and his circle while he was in office, but also its editorial page which is operated separately Evan and the reading public as a potential threat the very existence the American democratic experiment itself and they were saying that management ownership had decided not to do indoors and that was being drafted in favour of vice president Kamala Harris is enormous outrage the publisher and CEO the post a bit after our story broke posted on.

Readers online that it was a return to the papers roots as an independent paper.

I've got that here.

Let me read some of this on the Washington Post publisher will Lewis who says we recognise that this will be in a range of ways including as a tacit endorsement of one Canada or a condemnation of another or as an application of responsibility that is inevitable we don't see it that way we see it is consistent with the values the post has always stood for and he goes on we also see it as a statement in support of our readers ability to make up their own minds on this the most consequential of American decisions whom to vote for as the next president so that was the case being made by the publisher will Lewis but it didn't take very long David for people who wrote for the Washington Post to be taking to axe and other forms to make their displeasure known rape at you saw, Robert kegan and calm and listen editor-at-large resigned his position from the Post ultimately Michelle Norris over the weekend account did as well two members.

Editorial page staff too small group within the opinion section to write the actual editorials for the newspaper which is supposed to represent the papers institution of plants and their proprietors Outlook on issues that remain the public interest to those writers announce.

They were stepping down from the board their status within the newspaper is not entirely clear and then use or distribution within the first 3 hours of story in the announcement by Will Lewis new tenants in place.

Just one days before this Razors Edge election early November 1600 people I was told by sources that I find credible and sat in front of course Barnet confirming 1600 people have cancelled and over the weekend that turned into an extraordinary tidal wave and put a number on that because you've got a story on this Avenue on Monday we reported the cancellations had exceeded 200000 subscribers have covered medias.

You know Ross since the year two thousand.

I've never seen anything like that usually a few hundred subscriptions can protest a few thousand would be remarkable 200000 and counting as we recording the same told it's now from tens of thousands more than extraordinary level that about 8% of what we are told by independent auditors is the paint circulation of the Washington Post when you include digital and print subscriber is a terrible terrible blow.

Just done months ago will Lewis's in just now his first year as publisher and CEO of the postman.

Obviously well known to man if you're British winners will how did the back of the head had a net increase of £4,000 subscribers a water £200000 extraordinary it is it is extraordinary and can you help us to split this story into two because I've consumed a huge amount of reaction to this decision by the Washington Post it seems to me a lot of people are saying look it's quite right.

A discussion about newspaper endorsements in back lots of people saying we don't necessarily think they fit into the days media and political landscape, but they're saying even if you do think that the fact that it's happened so close to the election is the is the big problem here so it's almost like there are two aspects to this player on a few levels here thing is in America not too much degrees in Britain and Australia you know there is truly a wall between news and editorials and opinion and not always perceived by the public so they're that contributes to the idea that there is a bias when people see their mentor page for example endorses a Democrat or Republican in a very major race.

They will look at coverage with a different I until it in the words of different contact a complex the fire it does complicate the ability of the straighteners to do things and be perceived as being independent a part of the team and it also coming at a time when.

Trump has again and again intensified not only his rhetorical attacks against the press, but what he is willing to do against them and you know for example about all three of the major big Legacy broadcast networks in this country that ABC NBC CBS strip them of their broadcast why is because he doesn't like their coverage.

We did not read the presidential in vice-presidential the biggest regulation work in this country.

We don't regulate the national networks we regulate the individual local stations on which the pub to broadcast that he's probably promised that he would bring back the regulator of broadcasting on your Direct Whitehouse control not after the level quasi-independent you said you would punish those networks for their coverage and you were seeing questioning arise among journalists all of these outfits.

Is there welcome flinching going on because trump could win.

20 km at the Washington Post published a column in the paper on Friday saying about the decision not to endorse a candidate they say it represents an abandonment of the fundamental real convictions of the newspaper.

We love this is a moment for the institution to be making clear its commitment to democratic values the rule of law and international Alliances and the Threat that Donald Trump is 220 km from the Washington Post but on Monday evening the owner of the Washington Post Jeff bezos, also published an article in the post and which he said was presidential endorsements actually do is create a perception of bias a perception of non-independent sending them is a principle decision and it's the right one and he goes on to say neither campaign candidate was consulted or informed at any level or in any way about this decision.

It was made entirely internally David stay with us.

We're also joined by David a Kaplan Who

And former legal commentator at newsweek a little bit later.

We're going to be talking about how the media handles the legal dimensions of elections, but David you been listening to our conversation so far.

I wonder if you agree with the decision by the post.

I do not at all and of course the decision was it made in some principle that the decision had been reached announced on January 1.8 20-22 then maybe you could dress up as a principle decision.

I guess two things have come to my mind every second day remember newsweek back of the day was owned by the Washington Post I was part of that company for 20 years the first one is why did basis by the paper didn't buy it for Economic reasons.

He bought it for you and it's gravitas.

Historic.ly his help is helping to destroy that he obviously must know that so why are you already said it?

His article that he has never wants sorting anyway try to influence or intervene in any of the newspapers coverage of any story if that's so why but this decision undercuts the cache of the newspaper and if if if 200000 is correct and it'll be larger in a week leaving aside the economic consequences.

What's he doing to the papers reputation trust and reputation once lost is not so easily regain having so bad and is the other I want to be all these folks were cancelling their subscriptions.

I have the sensor doing out of some kind of performative Rage if you will because I think that take away all about revenue from the paper and thereby perhaps risking the jobs of all those in The Newsroom aren't you in some sense throwing the baby out with the bath.

That was David Bowie conflict and David a cat learning as you heard this Washington Post story is yet one more example of how the role of big tech in this election is under constant examination because of the influence that can be exerted because of this information to to get further into this David and David stay with us and also joined by Jennifer hanniston.

Senior fellow in technology policy at the think tank the Cato Institute and former member of the European Parliament and Academic an author of the book The te-ku how to save democracy from Silicon Valley that was released last month Jennifer Huddleston began our conversation.

I think it's a very exciting time that individuals have an ability to express their opinions to connect directly with their elected officials.

Thanks to technology.

We also heard some beers around what is like a either really haven't come departs.

We've seen the might like other media in the past that were able to identify when something is fake tan that these tools can also be used very creative you to help empower users to help them no more about what's going on to find the information that they that they need interestingly two in the terms of the two candidates and their is this kind of anti text sentiment that sometimes comes up in both parties calls to break up big tech could come either from the left and folks like ftc.

Or they could come from members on the right the Republican party.

We've seen as with sound events and soft saying that he thinks some of the cons ideas.org.

Set event being JD Vance Donald Trump's running mate.

You say that some of the four years you'd heard about fake content being created by AI and disrupting this American election in your view come to pass but human beings are showing themselves perfectly capable of coming up with lots of content which is factually inaccurate or plain untrue does do you have any concerns about? How well or otherwise? That's being checked on the the Tech platforms were using only have seen tools used in a variety of ways and we have a lot of important conversation the problem with clearly stating that you're having government regulation of some form of something that would be turned misinformation.

Is that it can actually in camposol lot of debates and a lot of it's not always clear.

What is right or wrong and oftentimes part of the way we arrive at the truth part of the way people change their minds is the engaging and counting we also have to be careful but in some cases.

Time-honoured traditions like political parody that could be caught up in some of these claims of this information that are just understood outside of the context in which the initial post or in it or image was created bring you in I wonder what your thoughts have been as you what this US election campaign play out on the biggest tech platforms that the debate is indeed still really followed online and that leave doors open for manipulation this information using generative eyes and sort of new components using the same data hoarding audience targeting model that most of the social media platforms are built on so that's that's one dimension the other versions of worst the Elon Musk component where he first has fired the trust and safety teams that were trying to read out some of that worst.

That we see on on a platform on all social media platforms and has now a certain himself as a key supporter of candidate Donald Trump is significant resources, but also has this social Media platform that very few went to Leverage towards Donald Trump's victory and I think our biggest challenges that we don't have the transparency for independent research to understand exactly what that curating of information really means in terms of having an impact on the election and that lack of transparency in the stomach problem that means that we may be overestimated or underestimated the impact of this information, but that we the public academics journalists civil Society leaders and even like the kind of appreciation for how these platforms and their business models impact on democracy and elections directly.

Formerly Twitter XZ last month we are proud that our platform powers democratic discourse around the world and France authenticity accuracy and safety of fundamental to our approach to elections, but it secret that Elon Musk is back in Donald Trump he's talking about it everyday and Jennifer do you have any concerns about the fact that the owner of one of the primary digital platforms where the selection is being discussed is on one side of the argument education and empowerment of users is incredibly important when it comes to some concerns around missing disinformation ensuring that users know how to interact with continent and what continent is out there in perhaps understanding to get to your question the different viewpoint but different platforms might have these platforms are private business.

Is it different platforms may be serving different audiences, so you are musk asks may choose one said.

Moderation practises that it feels so is it sorted audience or you may see Facebook or metal or other platforms choose a different set of love normal when there are a small number of platforms which hosts the vast majority of interactions on a political events such as an election does the government do the regulators need look at whether the owners of those platforms have a quiet explicit political stance because they obviously don't just control the platforms they control the algorithms which decide which content gets amplified the most what they are growing number of platform.

Then we see that there has been competition in response the son of these concerns so when you on my buttocks and change some of the norms around content moderation there with other platforms in married light blue sky that was designed to be an alternative but also from some of the larger competitors.

We saw example Facebook watch threads that was designed to be kind of a text.

So we're continuing to see competition both between these platforms themselves to host different kinds of content as well as for new platforms and individuals are making a loud different choices about where they can sing this counting as well.

They're not typically just on one platform.

Are you in anyway reassured by the plurality with Jennifer describe? She says there's sufficient alternative uses to choose where they go and as such we don't necessarily need to be concerned about anyone platform in particular for having choices and having competition in but it doesn't solve the challenges of a lack of transparency into the algorithmic settings of binding rules around what is and is not acceptable not only when it comes to the question of what gets shared because it's a week.

We can have a long debate about learning from information as Jennifer just said and you know people.

Look at different sites of the argument that something different then blatant lies about for example when election day is or what the electro procedures are which which are used to disenfranchised voters which I think it's unacceptable because people's democratic right should also be protected that you talk about people's democratic ride.

Do they also have a right to say something that isn't true of course but that's not the problem the problem is that we have you no systemic campaigns that are using a very detailed targeting of audiences for in influencing.

We have HD3 have terrorist content.

There's a whole spectrum of content that can be both illegal and problematic and at this moment in time.

It's hardly regulated in the United States while we see that there is still a lot of abuse of this so called freedom and there's a heavy focus on the

Protection but there is not enough focus on other rights that also need to be protected like people's right to participating in a free and fair election like preventing discrimination and there can be in effect of social media as we've seen with the storming of the US capitol for example where people are beginning to believe in lies and are willing to use violence and you should not be not even about people that are using the business models of experts also YouTube Facebook other social media companies to really polarised standards those waves of violence and that is that is dangerous and so I just think there's there's a competition element Shore but I'm talking about something completely different that is actually to Public Order and to the Democratic process itself.

It's also mention that matter which is the company which owns Facebook Instagram WhatsApp and other digital assets to its website says no tech company does.

Or invest more to protect elections online the meta not just during the election period but at all times.

We have around 40000 people working on safety and security with more than 20 billion invested in teams and text in this area since 2016 and then Richie also reference YouTube which is owned by Google or the overarching company is alphabet in August Google said leading up to election day focused on providing people with high quality and reliable information from non-partisan organisations it also says it's applying election related restrictions to many of its generative AI products some of the positions we heard from some of the biggest tech platforms and listening to Jennifer and Rita Ora David Kaplan Dr David for conflict from NPR and David for conflict if I could start with who is there any appetite from either side of these election campaigns for there to be more regulation of the protect platforms were using.

Because particularly on the outside there has been essential in a lion's forged with pretty explicitly must campaigning on stage pop-up the Crown for him as well as certainly popping up the volume turn it up to 11 on Twitter itself and than you think of any interest in Mark Zuckerberg have never use resources to count down and some information.

We've been hearing that from your other insightful gas here today.

He said he wants to kind of the out of the business of regulating certain kinds of decisions about what information is Miss information to the point of him in so much trouble with the forces acting in the 2020 elections.

You know you're seeing essentially a kind of embrace of Teck interestingly the Silicon Valley and trump or at least a Desire not telling him that is consistent.

Interest as well as a kind of desire to see less regulation in government you know they're taking advantage of social media use or Harris coming out of the key from her convention this summer a person with the idea of Joy or hearing a little less dry, but still some of that but how do you take a benefit you take it that that environments the most recently she was allowed to be photographed by photographer for the Travelling airplane this week.

I eating a person sized snack bag of Doritos for some reason that all over in various ways and that was supposed to say she's relatable she's like what have you so the Democrats and liberals seem to be able to take advantage of what social media of course even as they take a bowel particularly and how it manifests the the ways in which the kinds of misinformation and kinds of the kinds of overwhelming of serious discussions or even my serious discussions buy things.

It just means or Lies or misrepresentations the general approach as you see it of the to campaign the house campaign in the trump campaign David Kaplan you been listening to go having experienced having consumed the election campaign over the last few months.

Do you have an appetite for Greater regulation?

I don't know I think in these situations the the supposed to cure is worse than the problem.

I don't have much faith in regulators to make the marketplace of ideas.

I be the first to acknowledge that the marketplace is terrible the amount of falsehood in and disinformation on X and Y in general is terrible and we saw that play out during the pandemic influenza vaccines and healthcare.

We've seen a player climate science and 100 other areas so I'm old fashioned and I've long believe in traditional Bristol heaven theory that the good ideas will eventually prevail over the bed and then you still think that as she wants some elements of Us politics no information as you say amplified by logarithms the bed information seems to no pun intended trump the good information.

I don't have much faith in regulators and remember the regulators changed.

Are you going to trust a trump justice department or ftc or federal judiciary make these decisions ultimately I don't think it works Rita you heard there a scepticism that regulation can address it satisfactorily.

Would you make the case that when done well it can it's really important that we also look at the data elements of the business models of social media companies.

It's very us typical to focus a lot on speech and then there is the first of my heart you get you any kind of Solutions but a lot of people are increasingly concerned about the massive data hoarding.

That's a company's social media platforms are doing there is data broker in we've seen women needed to visit abortion clinics been targeted with data.

That's been collected about them online.

This is exactly where politics and technology meeting very toxic waste.

They're not about content moderation.

How to use of data and in Europe we have a data protection regulation which actually protect citizens from the abuse of power by companies and governments of course when regulation is done well, it's not about you know having having the government have excessive powers regulation could actually put it check on government and very healthy to do so similarly big companies should be putting checked by independent oversight restrictions on what they can do with data and obligations to take responsibility for preventing violence for other times of excess speech that that gets shared on their platform and that can that can lead to real problems in the real world.

It's not some kind of virtual reality where this is taking place Jennifer wants to come in and gone to you, but just before Jennifer does come in and do that.

I must ask you just about the experience of developing the legislation that you were involved in producing for the European parliament because I'm imagining you were.

Lot of advice from a lot of very powerful people if you mean the technology yes, and it's only grown to spending many many more millions because of course that the capital the power that these companies have a mass is also directed at influencing decision makers there is a revolving door between Washington and Silicon Valley and Money Talks we see that 3 normoss.

We see that everyday lobbying but also through funding of civil Society organizations academic really shaping our understanding of technology is also feel that tech companies love to fund and if you're talking about competition innovation.

It's obviously not an opportunity that smaller companies have because they simply do not have similarly deep pockets now ultimately lawmakers are the day cast so I think it's good to scrutinise lobbying and see it for what it is, but ultimately we need to hold the politicians accountable for how their influence and what they stand for.

California from the Cato Institute wants to come in with tzatziki and some of the development of AI that we would have just been onslaught given the rise of AI in the selection of something when we will no longer from fiction.

This is something that then I'm going in the history of new technologies have come along and The Simpsons that I think David Rose very eloquently you make find a very social media ecosystem looks like but we should really pick up Harden stepback about what the consequences of giving the government the power to make those decisions vs.

Private actors to kind of compete over these decisions in the marketplace might be so what is very hard to get it back so quick question shouldn't be do I trust the people I agree with.

This power over speed but do I trust the people I disagree most with this power in a situation where no one can come up with a different and you don't have a regulator in dealing with the information ecosystems that everyone is experiencing couldn't stand to the side of whoever's in power couldn't be sufficiently independent to approach that in the best interests of all Americans think we very quickly get into grey area is there going to be places where decisions have to be made and when the government someone making those decisions you're going to have concerns about the First Amendment a raised concerns about the traits of you know.

Where is that line arise in these debates and so there is certainly concerns that if the government someone making that call you won't have that competition between say x following you on mask and other platforms that may be having a more progressive leaving the beauty of the American system right now is that platforms can have a wide range of how they engage?

I'm interested that you use the word beauty not everyone would use that word to describe the online experience the information experience of this election.

I think we've got to consider what the alternative would be one of the Avengers is the now individuals we might not like what they are saying but have more of an opportunity to express their faith in previous eras where you didn't have online social media consent form more easily.

Thanks.

His social media.

I'm talking about young people who for example would have never been able to get a column in their local paper or appear on the BBC Radio 2 to have very David will complete many pilots bring you in as well.

Well.

I'm a few things that are you asked about example would would not regulator have some independence from administration.

Police explicitly that he intends to bring in the semi-autonomous agencies that kind of quasi-independent regulatory authorities back under the Direct control of the white house in a clearway is made that is exported promise and posting on social media the idea that the communications commission commission and introduced new deal your body's many of them that were set up to offer a kind of professionalism become more politicised so that's part of his agenda thing.

Is you after earlier about potato the campaigns to regulate and I haven't seen that but I will say on Capitol Hill in you know the wheels of the two parties staircase sunbreaker appetite do that you seem really populous like Josh Hawley in the Senate and some others wanting to go after not just kicked off but Instagram and others on the basis of Revelations about how they really behave behind.

The extent to which they really embarrassed some of the promises less about this information about the texting children often, but nonetheless these promises they made publicly how much these promises are for media consumption my colleague Gabby Allen had some revelations about how to tick tock basically was doing his protection for kids window dressing and that's how they evaluated but also on the creatures of the democratic party with standards of the Democrats who have an interest in regulating these things and you've seen some folks come out and say why is it that these platforms that say that they're really like that companies should be in anyway exempt from considering the truth and capability of defamatory or destructive statements made on their platforms and how much they put on the scale and place into the Debate that we have covered many times on the media show about where the digital platforms are publishers or not and have to take responsibility for.

The content that appears on those platforms David for config from NPR thank you very much indeed for the moment.

Thanks to David Kaplan just finally back to you as serve the US election in the way that this campaign has played out.

Do you think that the big tech companies are more powerful than the ever are more able to act directly in their interests and not necessarily in anyone else's interest and they have been more power more capital more talent coordinator position and they're still no no binding rules in place for independent oversight or more transparency for academic research for example.

I think it's important that we do not see our information echosystem as something economic where competition needs to flourish the notion of of trust in information information informing or democratic.

Is really a public good that goes beyond being an economic market to be regulated and where you know the marketplace of ideas would lead to beautiful results and I couldn't disagree more.

It's not it's a horrible place and it's an under regulated places and in transparent place and profit driven business models do not have the same interests as a systems do were Traders have to be made and where is vital to have a checks and balances in independent oversight.

understanding the role the big tech should play in democracy is a fairly new question something that's been going through a lot longer is the interaction between the white house and the German who covered the president's activities everyday from where I'm standing here in Lafayette Park I'm looking directly at the White House just to the right is The West Wing where you find the Oval Office and you'll find the press briefing room you probably have seen that on television a few times with its famous Blue backdrop, and it's lectern and just behind the briefing room is the very tight area where the press can follow their reports what we want to know more about how this interaction between the Press And The White House words I met up with Lauren and white house reporter for politico to get some help on this and our starting point was the organisation at the centre of the relationship between the Press And The President

Croissant Association is a very old institution and essential the responsible for organising the entire White House press corps we like a president that president works with the White House pressure.

They organise who travels with the president whenever we having issues reporters with something at the warehouse is doing well and they are navigate on our behalf for WordPress access essentially that the fundamental call and what are the kind of Rules that shape what you can and can't do in your interactions with well, not just the staff working for him.

Every minute and every present is quite different presidents for example trump will come to the briefing room a lot more frequently than President Biden has he's only come to the briefing room once as president and that happened just two weeks ago, so I think everyone has a different.

Interest shall we say in engaging with the press score is that a source of frustration would would the correspondence make representations to wise has to say look it's been almost four years here the presents only come once we all had the white house to get the president of the briefing room even going back to 2021.

It's pretty unusual that he went this does not happen video clips of him talking to reporters that is getting onto the plane like but always pushing them to get in the presence even say hey tell him to come talk to us.

We get on the plane.

So that is negotiation as we are constantly adding them to give us more time with them.

What about your working day goes got a big Newsroom here in Washington DC are you based there or do you like?

Yourself out of the white house in a bit different I would say it's like 50/50.

You know the White House working space is actually not very nice if you ever been there the press room used to be a pool and you can very much tell that when you're standing in the room.

I don't like that kind of nice on TV it's very different you're actually there is small it's 3:45.

Delete phone calls, because there's just so many people can a jam-packed into it will have seen that briefing room because of course is on the television with the row of seats in front of the lecture, but there are the other places where you can work within the White House Plans is your brother is sitting and what we call pebble beach.

Where are the TV reporters do they stand up?

You down a little bit better about having the news outlets that have work space at the white house with just a tiny little vascular signed so it's not speaking of the word cosy.

Is there a risk with an organisation like the correspondence represented body that deals with wise house that because of that ongoing interaction becomes hard to hold to account that it becomes too comfortable a relationship.

So because the correspondence Association their fundamental goal and their Mandy is always an to push for more access and I will stay for the most part.

There is a mutual respect and understanding between most ministrations and Correspondents Association knows the doctor job in that it is our job to push them.

I wonder what it's like being at the moment being and white house correspondent because of the president's not standing for re-election so a lot of the medias attention is on Tumblr Harris

Trump but you're still covering the the president does that mean you're not involved in an election coverage so most reporters at the White House have been pulled into covering that is because in some capacity most of us have been covering her for awhile as vice-president but it's turning to little bit of a funny dynamic because I think the white house is now looking for ways to make sure the president still stays in the headlines, but also having you can find the fact that you know love the reporters that have then following the present for so long her now.

You know there was a bit less than 2 weeks now and exhausted and just hoping we can get through these next few days without losing your mind and within a couple of days of the

Yeah, that's right.

I think we're all kind of weird what happened 4 years ago where we probably won't know the results when we go to sleep on election night and so were the results of this study.

We take a few days and then of course once we do have a president elect then we have to turn to covering the transition period which is his whole nother crazy super few weeks in GTA

Thanks to Lauren Egan White House reporter for politico and of course we don't know who Lauren and her colleagues will be reporting on in a few months time.

You might have heard Lauren talking pebble B12 from where I'm standing here in Lafayette Park I can look across the temporary fencing across the permanent fencing in front of the white house and across to one side of the White House ground.

Just about see the green awnings which cover the positions from where lots of broadcasters including the BBC carry out their live report.

That's what Lauren was calling pebble beach because I think just under foot weather report is a standing you get the odd rock or two and that the nickname that they've given it but those 10 or so little areas covered in the green morning with the direct to the right and left as well provide shelter offer a shop for the cameras as they face towards the White House itself now of course those reported everyone is

For the result in this election and want the voting a stop in the counting begins some of the US Media will have important roles in telling the country which way the election is going no more so than the AP the associated press one of the world's biggest news agencies when I'm co presenting the election night special on BBC Radio next week with new will be watching for APS updates so many other journalists and politicians, so one person who has a few very important days ahead is Anna Johnston the Washington Bureau chief.

Us when it was founded did not create entity or anything like that could get the votes in the presidential election and who 148 BHP with just you know two years after it's founding decided to step in and play that role in the boat and be able to call racing in that case and the presidency Prozac retailer and we've been doing it ever since obviously at the role is just growing that is so much more involved and we haven't seen our days do not just called the presidential race but I've been down the all across the country comes to around 5000 or so contested elections this year.

We will count up the vote in to Claire when I was in those raises my goodness significant undertaking.

I've seen a p describe.

It is the single largest active journalism that exist and I want to get into the practicalities of it in a moment, but first of all can you just give us a definition of or

What calling it means? What do you need to see what date did you need to have in front of you to call an outcome publicly, but it is obviously a complex or a state legislative ways that were calling a winner in the 80s called a winner declare a winner race when it determines that there is no path the training Canada to overtake the leading candidate will call the race so that's what you're doing and you are involving thousands of people in this process does every call have to get run up the chain and ok and how do you say goodnight calling so many different results concurrently operation it really is I can get a little bit of a better idea and if I were able to do it.

4000 reporters they're in the county election officers town election officers all across the country where election officials are working able to start counting the votes and you know how to get those results from the election officials were doing the work then I'll bring it in today about that information in trouble tracking information in any other way that we can from all across the country.

So you know they releasing things have been updated on the internet however.

There are updating their vote totals in House Race colours people who specialise in various States people who specialise in house races depending on the election at will be the boat information will be analysed and 1 seconds.

Cannot overtake the wheelie Canada will declare the winner decision team who play who work on elections all the time so obviously they work full time next year newer elections in 2025 in the United States and the highest rate of the biggest races ticket prices will get the ones to make that determination as well just before I let you go Anna I wonder how you feel when you wake up on the 5th and you know that the voting is going to finish soon and that he's very special role within us democracy is about to take place once more has that feel on that morning is a huge responsibility and won't let me take incredibly seriously seriously and everyone across that it's a corridor mission.

It's quite a journalism that we do and when that we just really take really seriously repair at 4.

Ready for next week, but we appreciate you speaking to a such a busy time.

Thanks very much indeed and thank you so much for having me from the associated Press and she and her colleagues are going to be involved working with the associated press in calling all of those different races that are going to be playing out on the evening of November 5th now just a the obvious we don't know who's going to replace Joe Biden that comes next week last time there were four days between the end of voting and the networks declaring by the winner, but even then Donald Trump didn't defeat in fact.

He never has in the week's that followed the last election Trump's allies launch.

Lots of legal challenges and trump falsely and repeatedly claimed that the election has been stolen widget hadn't been and these kind of scenarios are stress test of the US electoral system, but they also test the ability of the media to understand and explain the complexities.

Challenges and how to test the keeps on coming around let's go back to David a captain legal affairs expert who covered the law at news week for 20-years and who's the author of the Accidental president a book about the Democrats and the Republicans George W Bush it was an election that was eventually settled in favour of George W Bush by the Supreme Court David first of all reminders or that legal process that was playing out and the challenges the media had in passing that story onto their audiences.

It was the 2000 election of course you know those were the good old days of electoral disputes.

You know when it may have taken 37 days, but things were done reasonably similar to what what happened to these days and you had battles in the state courts in Florida and the federal courts in Florida ultimately going to the US supreme court twice to resolve.

Essentially a tie in the state of Florida and in the process of writing your burgers.

You look back to 2003 no that the AP we just been hearing didn't attempt to make a call in that election for a number of weeks, but do you think the rest of the media did a good job at handling this one of story well apart from no I think we did I think we dalhousie job.

We were particularly bad at explaining what was going on in the court system.

It's hard to cover you know a system with with with full of language and terminology and of course at the Supreme Court level you can remember back to December 11th 12 with a rule.

They don't do it on TV of course and you have reporters running out of the building with this long decision trying to explain in real-time who won and who didn't and all of those roll and

All of those reports were false, so you know it's difficult but we made a lot of mistakes as did the media back in 2018 the medias in better shape to take on any legal stories that may follow November 5th depending on what the election outcome is and how the campaigns respond a little bit to the extent we learn from past Wars are we going to be good about covering new ones and that's a shower in 2020.

I thought elements of the press were pretty good particularly the print Media in training.

What was going on in all the different on courthouses sometimes you were good.

It's not sure yet and sometimes some reporters.

I even on air would take time to read a 3400 page opinion without weighing in with a guess that could turned out to be wrong.

It's hard because you're not courts don't typically have a headline.

Explain what the decision is about in the first paragraph.

It's not like news.

It's certainly isn't like you so how as a journalist who has been covering the law for many years.

Do you go about translating something that is very much not like the news interviews take a little bit of time.

I have a law degree.

So that angel before entering a life of distributed in journalism, but you gotta take time to read the stuff and if that means five minutes or 25 before are going on the year or typing something out.

You should it's hard in the current environment to do so and it and you'll see that you're X or the Washington Post temperature after an opinion comes out of the supreme court or elsewhere to try to explain instantly what the ruling is about it it off we saw that would darts you know the 2022 decision that over.

Roby way some legitimate reputable news organizations got the news work at the outset.

Why don't wait a minute or 15 to get it right you think no one big between the subject of your book the Gore Bush election of 2000 and this one between Harris and trump is there people didn't expect that legal dimension to emerge in the week after that election but in the case of this one.

There are lots of scenarios that may well come to pass in which the courts will get involved in some form or another and that's not just me speculating is rooted in first of all what we know both the campaigns are doing but also what we know Donald Trump's Allies did last time sure I did get a really good points in 2000 was a surprised and Riley for newsweek.

I called a countless constitutional experts and electrolytes were saying the Supreme Court will never

Go near this case, it's even though it involves the presidency it in these debates are essentially about state war and the last thing the Justice's will do a risk ability in enrolling and that was and I was dead wrong.

We've now become even more comfortable with the courts and the Supreme Court a particular getting involved in everything and so the legal Dimension of an American election is much more established in the expectations of voters in your view, then it would have been 24 years and I think for the bad you don't worry about David weather for bad or for good.

It sounds like you're making the case that the media needs to be ready for that that it shouldn't be in anyway surprised that it's going to need legal understanding and legal expertise to describe a political event that's now an essential part of your took it when you're covering us politics exactly you need to be able to.

Describe but I also take it involves prescription there other be a fair amount at least on the background of questioning about whether this system makes sense rather than just accepting that makes these decisions when 25 years ago and 100 years ago.

We never would have allowed to have you been with us through the addition.

We appreciate you joining us on the media should David's book is called the Accidental president just before we finish that spring David for conflict from NPR back in baby.

Of course been keeping a very close eye on this election campaign over the last few months and you are a media reporter.

You're a media specialist.

I wonder what this campaign has revealed to you about the nature of American media control.

You know the years it was accused of being a liberal Media marketing in Locks I think you've seen muscular reporting on all kinds of issues attempt to fat check things and time to offer perspective on policy until Joe biden's withdrawal from the race you had people would help the presidency bacon off against each other and then Joe Biden you certainly have seemingly historical moment in a vice president being thrust into the presidential race in a very short time period in the press to keep up with that it was denounced for pointing out was evident from of arise in Joe biden's seeming inability to be confidently master the material in the moment to be able to communicate to people would have learnt in recent decades such an important part of the job and then it was announced for not having told us so enough ahead of time and these feelings are all through and his breakthrough.

You know the press contains multitudes did Walt Whitman's times, but I think it's different than being.

Completely off guard by the trump phenomenon in 2015 and then in early 2016 and then racing to try catch up and at the same time has been reversion of form we've been out with struggling trying to appeal to a broader audience that you know doesn't consider itself part of any resistance and the same time being through to the other extreme side effects often presenting themselves to the Press And you press the trying to without putting a thumb on the scale see these are the steak and I think it has done so in perfectly but with a clarity that lactate years ago and trump first round for the office.

Thanks to David folkenflik to David Kaplan and all of my guests that is just about our time up on this edition of the media showing as November 5th approaches Americans and the rest of us wait to see who will be the next President of America and of course we can have to wait a few more days to know that and see what the results reveal politics in America but already this election is reveal a great deal about the media and about technology the information ecosystems we all use a being radically re in front of our eyes.

They bring with them a diversity of content a diversity of sources that many welcome but they also bring questions about the huge power that rest in the hands of those control the digital platforms.

We use and as a digital world changes ASDA's some people's relationship with reality the truth for some it's not all.

the priority and so will America can change its president every four years some of the changes in the media and in technology that this election have raised last well beyond one election term whoever moves into the White House in January goodbye from Washington

Cafe Hope on BBC Radio 4 by the time I finished is £150,000 into a virtual coffee shop where I chat to people looking to improve the lives of those around them.

It's about tackling isolation and loneliness engaging conversation with people I can make a massive difference amazing individuals trying to make the world a better place.

It's a real gift.