Read this: Middle East crisis, Sony's video game flop, The Sidemen

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Hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week the manager of the biggest YouTube creators in Europe the sidemen takes us inside their strategy and tells us why thinks YouTube is more and more important also looking at why Sony's new game Concorde is one of the biggest flops in media history it costs.

Millions of dollars and lasted only a few days will hear why we're going to begin in the Middle East Israeli troops to fighting Hezbollah Fighters in Lebanon around launched an attack on Israel Tuesday night Israel is carried out airstrikes in Gaza and in Lebanon we want to look at the medias coverage of this escalation from a number of perspectives including how Media in Israel and Iran have been reported in the past 24-hours will also look at how British journalist covering the story in a moment will hear some voice notes recorded for us by correspondence in the region first though the BBC chief international correspondent.

Lyse doucet this here hello lease welcome to the media show what are the immediate challenges for Janice of covering such an important and multi-storey Hello Kitty hello Ross and the other great people joining our only say that everything has changed about your nose, but nothing has changed the fundamentals are still there.

When you are on the ground in the heat and Dust in this case under the bomb City who where what when why what is actually happened remember that good old-fashioned word facts to try to find out the facts but more and more in the world in which we live but it is always been the way of your sister has been war conflicts and wars are always always on fold on to two levels, when is the facts on the ground and the other is the perception of the facts on the ground in these perceptions now have become an increasingly hostile, Battlefield I don't need to tell both but it is nothing less than a battle for the truth so that it's not just that something happened.

It's what other people think happened and that feeling about vaping happened in the in the evolution of the complex in terms of how the story is told and retold and told again and then it becomes history and the efforts of the

Within these stories to influence how the Media help shape those perceptions.

They must have changed the way that they trying influence how you and many others cover the stories many more to it now before it was simply face-to-face, then we went to a long period in the 70s returnless were were been kidnapped master ball in Lebanon then we came when you're not just on the Frontline but they were the front line in what we have seen and it has been especially intensified during this Gaza war is a people think they don't need anymore this.

Where are the so-called traditional Media mainstream Media MSM they call us and it is not compliment.

It's not as an acronym.

It's a way of saying you don't have the truth.

You are presenting a biased view of Western you and so they take that story and they put out what they think is happening.

There was a moment when I was one of my colleagues was doing.

With a very very controversial personality in the BBC was filming the interview if I realise they his people are also filming the interview and they're film interview got more hates and went more viral than the BBC's you what happened at an interview.

They chose the questions they chose the answers day.

It is it and suddenly a BBC interview was was broadcast in a very different way on a non BBC channel and that's becoming more common.

It is being weaponized do a moment.

Sorry to take out of my last point there were moments on television from Jerusalem doing interviews talking to people and I put my mind I had to say one person so my job is that has the questions in your to answer this conversation starters content they took our interviews with them on their Twitter feed and then got more reactions on them and I producing continent not just with BBC before Bonas

Something really fundamental happened in a world of information news Gathering the battle for the truth in this work is partly due to technology partly to Israeli Palestinian conflict in the broader region and all of the escalators at the same time as the conflict itself, so let's you're staying with this for a few minutes and we very much appreciate your time on such a busy day, please.

We've been in touch with a couple of correspondence in the region who are working for British Media organisations and a recorded voice notes for us.

The first is from Alex Crawford special correspondent with Sky News and she's in Beirut the size of another from strike I can see in front of me pretty damaged building.

We've been brought him by his collar people who clearly want us to see this because for civilians died and they were too young.

Parents was too very very squashed cars in front of me, but a lot of rubble and landed on and there's a lot of the personal belongings or scatter around with finding a lot of ability to report in this area is constricted.

They're not just the activity that's going on which is involved artillery going out rockets going out but also the fact that has very controlling very restricted as well about where we go what we do last 24-hours would have been doing well.

We still a lot of dead people we went to a funeral when there was another mask you on about 20.

I think about 45 people have been killed his funeral was for

13 of them another one was being held for seven of them and it was very emotional you know there's a lot of negativity towards Western people Western media particularly with the claims over and over again that we're not reporting it baccarat Lee that we are biased in some way that we don't see what's happening to the people in Lebanon or what's in a lot of people telling us that they don't support his collar or southern the saying that you support Hezbollah and that I was for instance.

I got surrounded whilst I was doing a live at a bomb site when I called the group and Melissa and a man immediately took me to Task thing don't call us that they see that is a very very rude.

Insulting term and there's a lot of different people on the ground troops on the ground who are making it difficult to report Lebanese government to a lesser extent in all the people who have got different allegiances and depending on their allegiances also make it hard to record that was guys Alex she's in Beirut least I know you're heading to the regions soon.

How does it work? Just tell her sometimes you're clearly you're all rivals your rivals against me know the other out there, but these situations.

Are you all staying in touch? Are you making sure that each other keep saying how does that work? I'm smiling on the radio.

I don't see them, but I've never seen this is classic thing that you know if you get there before that matters even when I get there.

Journalism is very competitive but you no listen.

She is very like whole style traditional television toppers.

She's always out there on the front line.

You've been there in the route for weeks and how long are you going to Wednesday Wednesday it's when the truth is not this week, but your lives are at risk nothing.

No story is Worth Dying For and it does bring journalist together.

I never we saw this during the Russian Russian invasion of Ukraine I sent a nice sweet and colleagues from CNN from Sky for my team called the ball of them instead.

You know what I'm going to do.

They called me up and I think it does bring does bring people together because quite frankly you know who Laura heron species are very excellent as senior international correspondent.

I heard today on the BBC exactly exactly the same but completely different his belies taking us here.

This is what he wants to see this is the human cost of this.

In some ways do does no exclusives in this could you just want to tell the story as it is bring your listeners readers viewers into where you are? What are your constraints under the Dangerous wild editorial as well as real dangers in Canada live and get hurt alive next voicemail voice note comes from a colleague.

You know very well the BBC news correspondent and your rent in Jerusalem she recorded this for us last night.

I just gone home from the early shift in the Jerusalem Bureau and there were these warnings coming from the us being by my colleagues on my WhatsApp groups about imminent Iranian strikes now back in April in the previous major attacked by Iran we are waiting for so long for the cruise missiles and drones to a 2 hours and 68 hours respectively that the Israeli TV news have then a countdown up on the screen now this time.

I barely absorbed the news and the rocket warning Sirens

Century slim had to take my child to the Celtic distract her from the constant beeps of alerts on my phone and the funds that you could soon hear from the Israeli missile defence system in action and my colleagues and is really reporters were having to report from bomb shelters now the alert lasted about an hour a bit of course do continue to feel this anxiety afterwards and it's can you feel a lot living here now.

Day's there's the pressure of work and be on there so much but there's also this much bigger fear about where this is all going what happens next bus to be your angel who recorded us that for us in Jerusalem well.

Please is staying with this because minutes from fiery to go up and down really quickly but the trolls do take hours.

I was in Jerusalem in April when we first heard the day been fired and I'm lying in bed at 1 in the morning and they said when will the

Ok, I've gotta wait.

It's coming here.

So you're waiting for the Drones to arrive.

It's quite extraordinary and in television in Ukraine sometimes in the bombshell.

You good at 2 in the morning and you say OK how long should you have to wait 4 hours? That's how long it takes for the train for dinner guests to arrive to hear how such experiences reported are shared within regional media and national Media because there's bringing two people who help us with that has shown is with us from Amman in Jordan Shane Oppenheimer weather's from Jerusalem both are with BBC monitoring both are spending their working hours looking at how these stories are being reported in the different Media they monitor sure let's begin with you first of all your in Jerusalem to I wonder how things have been for you in the last 24-hours.

I actually live in Tel Aviv than yesterday.

I was working.

To understand that there is going to be some kind of Iranian attack or the reports that it could happen imminently as I was kind of thing in the back of my mind that what am I going to do because I don't have some shelter on and I was trying to finish up some work and then I heard a bit of a Commotion outside and I don't think too much of it just because it's pretty improved especially the past few days to hear the sound of iron dome interception them my phone.

Sorry going off and I realise that there was actually a shooting attack just on the street for me that ended up and being a definite article 27 israelis yesterday and so in the midst of kind of trying to figure out.

What was happening trying to call my friends trying to watch the news the sirens When I Was Alone and so I actually went with my neighbour to bomb shelter across the street and I ended up spending about an hour there with quite a few people.

Waiting listening to siren actress Irene interceptions kind of watching people go through phases of the news checking on her last once been called the odds always quite an interesting experience.

I think especially when your stuff with people you don't know you say interesting experience it sounds unsettling and frightening to and china in those moments both on a personal level and on a professional level particularly when you're in the bomb shelter, what sources of information are people you.

Are you using to find out? What's happening well on a personal level of course there is the various journalists WhatsApp groups that I'm in or are you see WhatsApp group that I'm in I use a lot of Twitter and then I'll kind of once I've been through those I will start to check is really Media

And then there's a bit of a gap between you know what I'll get in this really is that were in the bomb shelter with me? We're looking at the word mostly kind of using the home front command app which is like a location and a very like civilian baby instruction safety instructions and watching live stream news from Channel 12 Channel 13 Khan are pretty mainstream.

Don't really see them using something like cards, which is kind of more left wing or something like China 14 which is right Wayne just cause we're in Tel Aviv April and tell us what you're seeing when you're looking at that mainstream Israeli coverage.

How have the last few hours both yesterday evening and today being the kind of resounding takeaway that you see from the median certainly highlighted across the front page daily this morning was that this was the Declaration Of War

Original war unprovoked is really Media kind of put it without any kind of context of The Killing of his weleda, Hassan nasrallah of Us invasion into Lebanon in its increased military campaign against hasballah there and the about 1700s there almost a million display slip and there's not a lot of context then when you kind of considering the fact that there was a shooting a top right before which is which was quite significant.

It was almost kind of portray as this or skelattack on Israel and if I could just bring you in from a man and Jordan hello you.

I think I've also obviously been watching the situation develop and you been watching having missiles intercepted from your roof.

Yes, yes this up yesterday.

I had a boob and I thought it was passing over over the the roof and it was just a lot of interception of a dozens and all the neighbours in the area water on the roof and taking photos and videos it's quite cereal my neighbour going to come down 40 dangerous, and then we later found out that there were lots of pieces of track Norman rockets falling in around 6 rockets fell and total the kingdom and some injuries as well and they're lots of videos being circulated online of of the rockets and they just a huge that looks really really people congregate around them taking.

Taking photos and videos of real and frightening and just just part of the reason why you've got we got your own as well as hearing bad.

It's just to get a sense of the media presence.

Let's start with his balls Media presents.

You just give us a quick idea of that and how the reporting on that front gone and what's been going on for the last 24-hours presents is developed comprised of TV Guide website and various telegram channels.

They obviously celebrated last night's shoes and they've been relay messages by iran's Revolution revolutionary guard Corps land, but they were they have been really Focus today on developments along the border in the south.

There was an infiltration of Israeli soldiers early today and there are constant.

Alerts and reports of ashes and strikes by against more than Israeli military sites, so I have seen the the focus of Media reporting ok ok and that's that from the other side.

What about the Iranian side and it just does I know you cover media and Lebanon and Jordan but have you got any sense of what I need is being in the last 24-hours so has been really focused by last night events and they also showed rallies across the country in cities such as Tehran Isfahan celebrating last night's events state tv.

Claims that the the missiles hit various Israeli fight like the access and Gaza and other military sites and also gas installations and newspapers across the political spectrum prayers prayers Juliet act and state Media was quite.

Is language said that iran's attack talking to the heart of the Devil from sample and they will also need to report quoting and I'm on social media as well.

That was flooded with messages of Praise from supporters of the the Iranian government and ridicule by it's too well and equal measure and pre-established moment social media accounts a lot of them celebrated the events of last night express lot of happiness.

Thank you very much indeed.

Let's bring in his with this from Jerusalem because I want to ask you about the Israeli authorities requesting the footage of the missile impacts not be shared social media that was directed the general population but I wonder if the Israeli Media does choose not to share certain information because of national Security considerations.

Weather is in Israeli military Sansa in usually you have to submit certain things that can be deemed quite sensitive to national Security through the sensor and out either allow you to publish it go sit with you in terms of what can be published now if you look at the way, that is really media has covered the damage from the missile attack water details there.

They're not necessarily covering up what happened, but it's pretty tight on information.

They're trying to be clear that those kind of limited damage to infrastructure of millet and they actually said that are not giving the rate of the iron dome interception as to not give Iran and Hezbollah a potential opportunity to kind of takelessons away from yesterday.

What happened in the what works in what did it for that? Thank you very much indeed.

They're showing open home with us from Jerusalem and Horsham from a man in Jordan

Work with BBC monitoring and let you go it is obviously about to be a year since October 7th.

I wondering terms of your reflection at what we've learnt in that year particularly about how the media covers this region has become the media has become the story and the story but a very very emotional story a story fired up with anger.

I think it is it is a defining moment for how not just them in the media is seen as a reflection of the wider world with many now.

Just got saying criticising so-called double standards and it's very difficult for us because we have these rules about don't feel too much bloodshed.

Don't you certain kinds of words we have a certain language in as we heard early her that making those choice as well.

Technical data Toria issues are seen as political issues that we are not we're not really telling the real Santa's wish you could say no more.

No I think we can find I'm a big believe that you can find ways to communicate the Normandy in the intensity of an issue and sometimes you know I often say you know don't dramatise and already situation one word cannot convey the entirety of what has happened, but a good story well told as far more hammer impact then then the particular language.

So I think there's been a really sell used to retime most of all for the region including for journalists.

I know you've done this before and your number of journalist killed how Palestinian journalist have stepped up to cover notice is there is a is a major World story, but it is there own lives literally on the line and how.

Send it on them so much and it's some people live long what has happened now the way we have reported the way we have acted in the course the way the world is acted in this crisis so much is being tested at least it thank you so much so bring stuff.

Thank you very much for let you get on with the word very busy day one more person for us to speak to us we can see the media is covering what's happening in the Middle East from BBC verifiers with a son BBC verifies has a number of different roles would be used with the reason we wanted to speak to you was particularly around the role of verification of material that the media users not just Media the BBC but others to particularly Around video and you posted on social media last night.

Not long after the Iranian attack on Israel that you were looking through an enormous amount of videos just we wanted you to help us understand what that process looks like was the practical stages.

Go through all day expected from the moment.

I heard the news from a sourcing Washington that it could be a response by around last night and obviously when it did happen.

We started looking at the sources with the places.

We usually look for these types of videos now fortunately in my case and you know I was born and raised in Iran before moving to the United Kingdom so I know well.

I know where to look when it comes to an event that is the wrestling to start checking videos coming from Iran it's really nice to say within half an hour 45 minutes of the smell of the moment got the alert that Iran had launched these metals we had upwards.

I think 100 videos to look at.

Because they were coming and thick and fast and different parts of the wrong people were basically the smartphone cameras at the sky CDs what clearly look like missiles travelling in the same direction and pretty much interestingly even those videos need a night-time pissed off because mostly not always will mostly around places these missile launches into the air and not populated by lot of people and most of the videos that we're getting initially from inside around the exact people in small villages rural areas looking about what's going on and they know exactly what's happening and then we are very mediately because exactly as said earlier in the program because these were not affected by advanced ballistic missiles.

We saw these flora videos from different parts of Israel missiles flying over different towns and cities and then what was what separated this attack.

The April of this time around we actually the videos restaurant quite a lot of impact in different parts of is a particularly in four separate areas that we got most of our videos.

Can I ask you so first of all your assessing who sharing these videos and in some cases, you can take a position about whether that looks like a reliable source or not, but even if it is a reliable source presumably as well as checking who's sharing this you need to look at what's actually in the video and start doing checks about whether this would be this appears to be a legitimate recording of what happened.

Yeah, the States usually take festival we want to make sure that the video was saying is recent so the internet is flooded with all sorts of videos from all different times and errors and one of the things that happens when you have a break so I like this you will see the videos been posted on social media either deliberately for engagement or by people who don't know don't know the facts of past conflicts recycle videos.

Similar events in the past but not what's actually happening at the time that the stories develop his first all they have to do we have to turn the video the same as recent then we have to determine play our video was filmed the process record your location you want to establish where exactly that video was filmed and finally we want to make sure we can find it earlier saw that video the person who originally which platform.

What did they say and what was the context of the Day film any other videos for many of them because that informs our process of reporting audiences not just the fact that people want to see I want to know what actually happened in this part of Israel or Iran also in the water context.

We want to be able to tell a story about what exactly happened based on these videos putting them turning them into a store.

Thank you very much indeed for sharing what you've been doing in the last 24-hours and that verification process which sign is describing we've heard on the media show before is.

Fundamental now to how many of the biggest news organisations in the world respond to stories such as Iran attack on Israel on Tuesday evening now.

There's something well very very different video games because new information is coming out about just how much Sony might have lost on its new Concorde game it give you one of the greatest flops of all time first to get a flavour of the game have a is a trailer the company released and it features some of the characters and makes of aliens and humans on some sort of Star Wars style spaceship.

Did you tell them anything until they unlock the free gonna frequency set your expectations low well, that's on surprisingly based on that.

It's makers Sony pull the

Sale last month just two weeks after lunch yet by 1 calculation the highest number of people ever plane Concorde at the same time was just 660 and a new report says the Sony more than 300 million pounds to make while Kevin McDonald is videogame editor at the Guardian hello welcome to the media.

So just explain what type of game Concorde was and why it was so unpopular welcome court was known as the hero shooter, so the idea is that your friends get into a game you eat pick one of the roster of Heroes like you heard on the trailer there and then you will have a good time.

It's also what time is the Live service game which means that the idea is the players who played for months or years and it will have a long life and make lots of money for his publisher, but obviously that hasn't how it's worked out in this case and why not.

Why was it so unpopular? Why didn't work you think you know it's hard to say but I think one of the problems with Concorde is that it took about 8 years to make which is not unusual these days video games big budget.

Blockbuster once like this taking off a long time to realise that you said one of the estimate size putting advert 300000000 100 200000000 earlier estimates by the way it's normal amount of money and I think by the time Concorde actually came out people have kind of moved on from this John that they're already lots of very popular games in the genre.

I'm on them valorant Apex Legends overwatch the millions of people play and I just wasn't room in the market and seems for another one and that I'm aware of back as it's just search for my age, but of the ET game back in 1983 the Atari made.

That was the worst gaming disaster in history, but it has this now as it's now B21 usual is it for a game to be pulled just after lunch? I don't think that has ever happened.

It's not that unusual for a game cancelled in the run-up to Lodge like there is a game called I think was hyenas by Sega which was similarly Heroes shooter and it was cancelled maybe for 5 months out from Lodge that's a big story and games but for something to be on the market for 11 days.

12 days and then to be put completely it must have been such an incalculable disaster.

It would have been much better from APR perspective for Sunny to have cancelled it before it came out because then it doesn't turn into huge story and what about the way the Investment in these games is it inevitable you know you have to put so much money at is a very narrow market in terms of people off and play the same game now for years and years the wedding 21 game is it inevitable in the gaming industry that they'll be expensive flops and are they built into the thought of Us piano the way they think about this.

I really do think this is a kind of existential crisis for video games because these budgets are getting very out of control.

There's been a huge contraction and games in the last few years after the pandemic.

Lots of people losing their jobs.

Lots of projects getting cancelled lots of business is going out of business and I think that I return to more manageable ways of developing more sustainable ways of developing has to be on the card because these Live service games.

They are enormous gambles either you make millions and millions and everyone happy.

Exceptionally huge loss and most companies in game simply can't absorb losses like this very often if at all so that's a prediction about the future where the video games market might might go what about the explanation for why why is this happened? I don't know why is it a flop? I mean why have there been his mass layoffs happening in the industry? What's behind it all during covid.

Obviously everybody was stuck at home and Video Games begin Paramore increasingly so games like animal crossing New Horizons which I'm sure a lot of listeners will play remember from that time so 30 million copies, so there was a lot of investment suddenly.in video game developers and a lot of in my Skype for business decisions made by certain companies that meant they scaled-up massively a very short period of time and then when the investment money back was turned off suddenly lot of people in the dark at the sharp end of layoffs, and this has been happening for the last year especially in games have been heartbreaking stories about Studios her making you know critically acclaimed games popular games but still there Studios of being shut down and I really think it.

Just a general sustainability mindset like gaming has become huge and millions of people play games no people spend so much money on them, but it's also become stratified and you get these massive what bus do games indie games and then that space in between become really difficult to work in.

I think there's going to be a correction and next videos McDonald's video games that is that the Guardian thank you very much for coming on the programme.

Thank you very much because there's a story of something not quite going to plan and see about something at the moment is going to plan because some of you listening will know all about the sidemen if you don't there British content creators on YouTube they found extraordinary success both in terms of millions of views but also events branded products that even a new store coming and we're going to hear from Jordan schwarzenberger who created the media manager with only one client the sidemen his approach offers a very different view of how Media businesses can work before him though to give you an idea of what the sidemen.

To this is a little of one of their latest videos on YouTube and how long video in which they played giant game of hide-and-seek.

That's a little shot down the biggest shopping centre in the UK on the go-kart track racing to the shopping centre whatever they want so let me go that was the sidemen playing hide and seek in Birmingham well this morning.

I talked at length with Jordan schwarzenberger.

Who's co-founder of arcade Media we got a lot of subjects the BBC the TV advertising regulation producing for YouTube of course as well as the role of big tech and well.

Generally where the media is heading but we started with the kind of Media he consumed when he was growing up my sort of media consumption is very much the first stage of Facebook the first stage of Instagram so we were that social media generation really who were given given phones at all.

All of our friends at school United on these platforms at 13.

It was one of the single parents my parents in other parents are the Oscar we give you Instagram and Facebook as well, and I think it was a bit of a wild west of the right so we have access to Facebook YouTube Instagram also the kind of lies Netflix and streamers.

You know I think we were the first generation to be pulled away from the ATV actually never grow up with it.

Will you only consuming or speaking as well, but if I mean that we were in the YouTube donation to I loved your friends were making videos but also we have Facebook we had a headache 1000 friends on Facebook I weigh more than life, but I remember things are launching a clothing company in a film magazine and all these little bit immediate but you can disturb yourself.

Are you had that audience you just put it out there and then you collect followers and collect of traffic and your teams school when I was at my magazine called Lost VHS I think 14.2 clothing company at 16:17 release the mixtape music and put that on SoundCloud all this stuff, so you also watching lots of TV

What's a sit down on the sofa at home and stick on the television or that was just gone you know what actually think I did that more when I was like younger right that when you're a kid growing up with that Disney channel is well right.

I remember that distinctly more than I did when I was in my tea, and I don't think we really just sit and watch TV widen anyway.

We'll have more you know playing video games social media and then also TV TV like the cornerstone of our entertainment.

I think I'm interested then if you are going to your teams creating content as well as consuming a lot of it when you go into the professional world when you start living after you've left school.

Why did you choose to go into talent management rather than you yourself being The Creator you yourself being the thing that required management.

You know what I didn't even have time management existed, so I didn't bother definitely.

I did not choose to go into Talent because I don't even know it was an industry the things you come out of school.

You don't really know what the options are so for me.

It was ok.

Let me find the one company.

There was cool like I'm currently relevant in the one company.

I could find you think of that was advice and the times I fell into publishing clearly because I went on the website found all the jobs and sort of the job called a creative and new will I do with being creative and I like making things so that for like a job for me.

I don't even know that was in the agency side of the business.

I don't even know the job.

It was it was a creative and then what that means is that you work on briefs for brands to work with voice to activate in sodium, so basically produce advertising against the voice audience and that was the day but I just saw the word creative and look at like to be a creative director and all these things that mean as a remote for somebody who has spend their teams creating things whatever that is so I know it was but that was enough for me to basically message everyone advice and say can I come in and have a chat and I did and they're not letting me get an internship and work in creative when I dropped out of uni in 2016 so you cut your teeth are and you're learning about creating a creative as well as learning about the business models that underpin advise you then jump across two.

Working for one of the biggest agencies you work with a whole range of well-known public figures in the in the media.

Why make the jump it was it was a falling into so was rice and then from voice to ladbible biggest social publisher for you that the time massive in the sort of Instagram growth and boom of ot 2015 16 and then from there.

I start my new job seekers roundabout, which was a gen z z to help brands connect with tentacles rm19.

I know I'm doing I can go out.

Then you know work directly with these people so from there.

I ended up just meeting Mary who's the CEO what was the imagine she's not to cry and a picture how about you know what we do it round about which is about helping brands strategically position and self-identity and to hit you wouldn't is better cos I was 19 and there was no one else of Maidstone that and then I realise hang on you've got a company here with you know 200-300 clients all of them has social followers that are bigger really if you had the invoice then ladbible if you apply that publisher thinking to Talent that's a hot water bottle.

I think existed and who were those two or 300 people.

I mean I mean at the time people like you know Ant and Dec the time Holly Willoughby and then Steve Aoki take that you know whole host of huge name that's interesting to your call message to them was to go direct was to use these new platforms whether it be YouTube Instagram Facebook whatever you to go direct to people who might want content from them and as such you are cutting out major parts of the media totally be becoming publisher that was the whole message at the time because the time when you had to sort of Instagram influencers, you gone through the sort of YouTube first area of your past believes in your Joe sugg's etc, but you haven't really hard traditional Talent taking social seriously so that was the settle so you take the Disco provider level do you need for your career? So you helping with the production? Would you make the common sense or would you tell them what kind of content to make and put them in the right direction both but you no come out before.

Content ideas and then you know helping to deliver them creatively, that's what I've been doing it louder by such a bit more.

So just round general positioning strategy collaboration who should they be working with you know one of the most fun projects.

I did actually I think it while we was with Ant and Dec on tiktok for example that Ant and Dec being stupid TV come into the wall with tiktok now hyper relevant for Gen Z how do they do that effect of the only did it well? I mean I remember they said to me.

I'm walking down the street now and kids are coming up to me knowing me for my tiktok Instagram videos more than only from TV and that was a moment where they went ok.

This is definitely the future.

I've done well to get this far without talking about the sidemen because you create a new business arcade and it's unusual in a range of ways but the most unusual part of it is that it only has one the sidemen have some people listening to this will know all about the sidemen one of the most group of the most successful creators on YouTube in Europe I can be the world some people in the world know them at all.

So give us a brief introduction.

Yes, the sidemen are I will stand by the biggest sort of cultural export for Jersey from the UK really and people would like the One Direction of YouTubers is in a documentary in how we describe the data 7 real friends who started playing games together in 2013 Grand Theft Auto that was interesting was actually 10-year anniversary Grand Theft Auto 6 is about to come out and Grand Theft Auto 5 was the mark of their friendship and their whole brand going together and that blossomed into a channel and into them making videos with each other that became this Heuston Station on YouTube on YouTube wasn't at a point.

Where was where was as nowhere near as big as it was today, so they managed to get there early make content together.

It's all about them busy having fun travel in the world doing challenges game shows and all sorts of other really fun things and I think people connected with them individually why you was seven friends like ksimc gonna have an amazing free music and boxing etc, but the other boys as well if you go on the street, you ask anybody probably under the age of 30 that vehicle is famous in that's meant that they've gone now so

Join them in 2021.

I think they had 8 million or just just hit 10 million subs on YouTube then out 21 million subs launcher Fried Chicken restaurant now call Grandad breakfast band called best VC funds upside the whole host of other yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

It's all gone out of the connection that they have with each other and also with fans across the world, so that's a lot.

That's a long even though there's it's a group of them and a group of you working with them.

Please understand what a normal working week would be from your perspective and also from theirs because the generators volume of products and this volume of content must need a pretty detailed miniature changes all the time but really that producing.

I think about 8 to 12 videos of week and I can be more than that across the different channels the main channel on YouTube moresidemen the second channel reacts and class which has within it and other different subclasses there.

Are you there Netflix if you want their paid membership subscription platform which provides more more content exclusive shows and format and get the average recall.

New across three buckets of internal business the first being the kind of content buckets.

Oh, that's left by Victor whose managing director is unbelievable you run Simon entertainment inside plus that all of that content help us understand the creative process like he would generate the ideas and suggest them to the sidemen or they would come and go look this week.

I want to do X and Y and Z how does it does it down that meet consumers or I don't know how you do it, so he'll have meetings with all the guys and I'll go through all of their ideas and all the ones they want to put in the pipeline and then he'll work with the creative team to go in plan that out and see execute them alongside their play the weight of the guys work is each of them taking individual video for the main channel, so that'll have individual responsibility for each video essentially the goes out.

So he'll work that work with you know creative and Victor to make sure all the ideas of and then Tanya who's Incredibles head of sidemen Sunday production.

I shall go and execute alongside Lucy has a set designer and art director sorry.

I'll be sidemen Sunday moresidemen.

They do parachute days once.

A couple of weeks I think they're due gaming sessions as well.

That was some in person some gaming reacts is all done at home and then slight party have a studio in East London where the guys will come to every two weeks and I'll sit down and then we'll have a timer goes off there for sets which each other shows the house then and go to twin-set to set sometimes as a group of four or 3 with a guest and a set of fixed there the whole time you come down to see me if you are interested.

So how many people would work on producing all of this content aside from the sidemen themselves must think you said the other day had 35 reports or something like that a lot of people operation BSA bake.

What's the business model adsense through YouTube for motivation of causing the number one driver across everything sideplus which is actually makes more money now the sentences to direct monthly recurring revenue from the subscription platform and that's that one bucket and then the other two buckets the second one is the brandbucket so that's I guess the sidemen consumer brands outside Xbox

And then there is a basically longer-term place.

They're not cash generative courses in 10-cm in the vodka you had a running with the advertising Standards authority about how the sidemen promoted there for one of your videos you called some of the rules the as a wee replying insane.

I would I would say here.

They are there are some of them, but some of my what was your because the issue that the as a hand with what the sidemen have done was it wasn't clear enough within the video the what was an advert was an advert.

Yeah, so the way that those ISA rules in the station with the regulations of coming plays.

I think have been somewhat complicated haven't been made for the new one that was going to that say Grace Beverley had another example trust we did actually if you were found of a brand and it's your branding your business to what degree do you have to call it a #ad whenever you talk about your own individual business or not declaring adverts.

That's one thing but it's when it's your own personal brand that you've created you put in the world should you have to declare everytime you post about it and add because that's a really great because if you're an entrepreneur founder and talking about your business Richard Branson and univerge in cruise should Richard Branson on his Virgin cruise have to say #ada in the case of this particular video you were very explicitly saying over to our website sign up and buy this vodka.

So you were there wasn't you were just saying hey we're making some photos here you were giving very clear calls to action that people should go somewhere else online and buy it for me.

It's more that I don't like the president.

They've been trying to push around if you are the founder in and kind of owner of a brand business.

Where's the line as a founder because I'm in last you've been describing the the way you build a business for yourself, but also you're working with the sidemen who have their own business and of course you are now deeply intertwined by most measures.

No one would deny that this is going very well both for you and for them, but I'm in.

Did to what degree the media more broadly can learn from what you in the sidemen have done or is it just that you have an extraordinary group of young man who are making some content and that's working well for them, but really there's no broader lessons here and there are there so many lessons to be learnt principles of they have built their business up on that anyone can take anything some of those are that you to be consistent and really consistent and I think the discipline of making content is something that people generally undervalue and don't really think about I mean that producing as I said 12 to 15 pieces that somebody sometimes if a 12 piece of every single week.

Yes, they both of tea now.

They can say that even before awesome before we put in this operation.

There was still making a vast amount of content that they would have stressed the entire themselves out trying to do it and they always had the sense of discipline around that things to bramble and that's a lot of people don't particularly put enough I think it's on the other thing as well as his building a team as quickly as you can in terms of getting Partners and people onboarding even if you can't afford a higher big Skelter

Have they don't have a lick ass in the back to be able to bring in 35 employees you can find part is generally who can help you in some way shape or form.

Especially now.

This is incredible generation of young Talent out there who were begging for opportunity in and does that generation of Talent want to be on the television.

I ask because I see it's been reported that KSI is going to be a guest judge on Britain's Got Talent in the quote CC very excited about it and no doubt he is but probably thought that's interesting because does.ksi or any other big stars of the new digital world need television and the profile it off with TV generally the word need other question.

I don't think YouTube is a content creators need TV but I do think it had something of course nothing.

Is it easy to sort of disregard concrete traditional media and just on the new and I think there's an absolute balance if you have both been just how powerful for example of you know the breakfast shows in this country, how much of a staple they have how much of a voice they have because of your calculation that you don't want to turn your back in tyre Leon

More traditional Media you interact with it a lot.

What do you make of it you think sometimes TV spend too much money producing the content that it does she think it's ways of working out of date compared with what you another doing.

Yeah, I think for me.

It's a combination of things.

I think the economy of TV doesn't clearly make sense for the way that advertises spending right advertising dollars and shifting digital and they're moving away from linear.

I'm not at a rapid accelerating likes cataclysmic level, but it's you can see the writing's on the wall really which is the Advertiser becoming slightly more something also that really the over inflation of TV advertising prices causes a level of well.

You know can we get more bang for buck on programmatic or a social probably right so I think the movement away from linear as an advertising Funnel if you will will innately mean that the budgets have to come down or that has to be more creative ways of directly monetizing audiences this conversation in the BBC

Broadcasting House in the centre of London where is an organisation like the BBC fit into the calculations that you might make around clients like the sidemen just does an organisation like this feel elephant in any way to the media world that you're navigating them through you know I don't I would say it increasingly hard to find where that relevance sit for a wild interested with public service broadcaster think that you know for a generation coming up today and I was speaking to one of the Editors at the commissioning editors of the BBC on the TV side and we were talking and she's amazing and we'll talk about it and do your kids.

No, they know what public service broadcasters and she said I'm taking that they were and I think that is the case that the the the relevance of the BBC Four and broadcasting for Jennifer Jen maybe just for the kids coming up.

I can't see the Minds of Jennifer who have been born into a totally globalised entertainment climate where they can have access to anyone in the world.

My account on Twitter any account on Instagram anypublisher on Facebook or on the tick tock around with my baby.

They look at it.

I think this is you looking to see for example 2 cm and licence me.

Where is a for subscription, so I'd say it's interesting in the subscription bubble in their minds so everything we've subscription on a free account which allows me to access contact the media who am I placing my money with you looking to see again the licence fee stuff for Gen z and I think it says they see it is a forced Netflix account that can have you don't see public service.

I would say and it still sleeping position, but my senses a cultural necessity in the same way the older generation state in which case and clearly this is not necessarily one for you to worry about but what do you think the BBC should do change its funding model give up on the idea of service Media reshape public service Media yeah, I mean I think it's there's a big question.

I think for me.

It's to remove the cause of necessity and compete that's why.

Has to compete alongside as best it can in terms of tapping into culture BBC always been a Vanguard of Culture in this country right.

How does it do that for the Next Generation how does it you know again? It's the balance of the order to pay the bills TV classic problem out 95% of over-60s watch TV every week 48% of 18 to 24 the right so they cater to the 60 + increasingly because they pay day and everyone converted to advertising dollars but for the future.

How did they bring audiences on two questions for you at the agency where you used to work Phillip Schofield was one of the clients and you seem he's done a chauffeur Channel 5 Cast Away where he both tries to pass sometime on a on a deserted Island but also reflects on his his experiences and is ITV what did you make that as someone who has worked with any number of high-profile people some of whom have had challenges with different stories.

Different issues yeah, I mean that I don't like it personally.

I just think it's bad taste to be a guest trying to Almost build a Redemption arc, so publicly, I think there's almost always like this need him in this case to be on TV I meant to be back in the public eye is my sister's I just want to be there and I just don't think that's a good taste and the centre around it.

I don't think it's been great for that reason people going hang on a minute like why is there? This is how to get back in public after doing something which you know again from my experience being very close to it wasn't great.

You know anyway Jones about that a part of me was an overly surprised just because I think I know sometimes it again.

It's comes with this sort of traditional Media think there's a lot of power Dynamics you see some characters in the space, but yeah, I think act quite quite power quite controlling sometimes in that in that can transcend into behaviour like we still with you edit right.

You know well.

You are a number of different issues there, but the broader issue of very successful people having power.

It's not going away because the new work with the sidemen who are incredibly successful and with that comes power and afterwards and other things to how do you manage that you make sure the early how it doesn't turn into something but negative for the people they work with I think it's about having well in that case having a team around them in each other out there accountable accountability Human Nature on a lead towards ego power pride etc, and I think the big institutions in the Tree Solutions of always often supported powerful people right of course in the Stars etcetera in the world of democratise content YouTube and you are more on your own in that case you have to I think hold yourself to the highest standard and be seen with created more recently you got the world who have done if you anyway and hold you to such a high standard sign is a healthy of dynamic where you can't hide behind institutions is I think maybe happened in this country that was Jordan schwarzenberger from Arcade Media Katie United been sitting here listening back to all of that quiet.

I'm in so much more than just a really fascinating interview so many pearls from someone who's the key part of the media landscape that we don't often hear from what I turn of phrase having his disdain for the parents on Channel 5 Got It Bad Taste to build a Redemption arc, so publicly that was rather fabulous.

Love his insights into the sidemen and their 35 strong production team and how they create their content and obvious it is from that these created in the people around them.

Just having an entirely different asked you to advertising and why you have to declare as an hour if you no have your own brand vodka and you were talking about it, but of course diamond blame for the Legacy media as he politely puts it the traditional media and for the BBC specifically that was interesting wasn't that idea of the BBC as a force Netflix account for young people and subscribed BBC of the numbers in the annual report that show it's in the top 5 most used media Brands for UK young people but but but he's right.

Young people wouldn't know what a PSP is an interesting leave you listen to interview some CBBC people in the last few months.

There's regular acknowledgement that actually that restatement of what service Media is and white needs to exist is required clear bringing different perspectives to Jordan schwarzenberger, but there's going to share the acceptance that this does need to be restated.

That's it nothing more to say apart from goodbye, and thanks very much for listening to the media bye-bye.