Read this: Russia's alleged ties to US influencers, Government terrorism watchdog, Lucy Letby coverage

My name is Annie MacManus and my name is Nick Grimshaw how long have we known each other probably 20 years now worked in and around music.

I love so it's not Avatar 4 podcast but it is good so we put the world to rights little regards to music.

It's all the stuff.

Do you want to chat to your mate over pipe sidetracked with me and Nick listen music Radio podcasts and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week as the public enquiry into what happened at the hospital when Lucy letby murdered seven babies begins would impact our can I see fairies having on the ongoing reporting of the story the murders of children in Southport sparked riots after misinformation spread fast the Independent barrister.

Terror laws for the government wants the police to share information with the media much more quickly Jonathan Hall Casey is here to tell me why and deadlines Jake cancer is with us out the program to chat about the other media stories that have been coming in thick and fast including Jake hello the start of Strictly Come Dancing this Saturday how do you think Tess Claudia will start this new season? I mean will they be making any reference to the allegations that have been swollen for months about the BBC's planet show radio Ibiza prize that they make explicit reference but I think it'll be really intriguing to see how the events the last few months shape the show clearly some welfare to be made including introducing chaperones in the training rooms and I wonder whether we might see a bit more of the curtains are being pulled back on the board.

is it worth and celebrities and their partners perhaps being a little bit more vulnerable being allowed to talk about the pain as well as the pleasure of participating the other thing I'm keeping an eye on is jmash Who originally commissioned strictly many many years ago 20 years ago in fact is the anniversary she said that that chaperones may disrupt this or natural chemistry that forms between celebrities and their partners and I do think that's Henry something to keep an eye on over the course of the new series and we will come back and stay with us, but we gonna start with US government claims of a conspiracy run by Russian operatives to try and influence the upcoming US election using influences the Department of Justice has a

2 employees of Russia state broadcaster RT of paying a Tennessee firm 10 million to create and distribute content to us audiences with hidden government messaging and Maddy Miller is a cyber security report to apple is ago and joins me to explain hello Maggie welcome to the media show, what are the vrt employees actually doing well? Thank you for having me and these charges that were unveiled last week by a US Attorney General one of our our Top Ranking law enforcement and really these 2RT employees who are both Russian citizens are accused of funnelling around 10 million over the past year to a USB media company was called tenant Media established last year to help pay some of their YouTube commentators to put out certain content most of which was

Russian content or content that was aimed at exploiting divisions in US Society so everything from being against the war in Ukraine to exploding divisions on race on lgbtq issues on criminal issues and this was a quite an interesting conspiracy in that really wise to employees of RTI which is a company is banned basically from broadcasting in the United States your up the UK has been since the start of the Ukrainian war and they were both working but representing multiple in the walls are behind the scenes trying to make it seem as legitimate operation is possible and posing as a billionaire who ended up being fictitious to say that it was a Build-A-Bear with the background in France in Brussels who was the banker who was trying to get this information out and really it was these 2RT employees closing at him and employees that work for him so.

Let's get some pick it a bit more you mention that company that Tennessee firm tenet Media just tell us about the company.

What does it do for the company itself was actually really established last year and it is definitely more in analysis.

I would save in a new company very much right-leaning conservative Focus they have they started with individuals who were commentators who were working for them and at least two of these commentators were targeted by this method and the company tenants.

It was founded by two individuals who have not been indicted by the US government by were certainly called out in the indictment for potentially at not taking his match at effort to double check who is funding them and not telling their employees that potentially this was rushing funding and not from France and Belgium so.

It is a media company that I think many may not have heard of however it now in America because the tenant has not responded to the allegations and they haven't commented so we don't know what they say but in terms of the influence 10 it works with influence influences, does it is that is that works indeed.

Yes, I was going to say you mean on a pair of tenet Media but you especially if you're in the conservative space likely have heard of some of their influences.

They have several that have very robust YouTube channels at 7 million followers for several them including at one of the commentators.

Who was likely a victim of this.

I mean just yesterday had on former President Donald Trump's daughter Laura trump and a representative Jim Jordan that had at the house just he has some figures on the right on their channels and on any of these channels as I said they speak about divisive issues in US politics along with.

Troll Activision so well done it nearly as I said may not be known the commentators for sure and what were the narratives that RT allegedly wanted them to push and what they saying that they did push them.

Yes absolutely well.

Clearly a big Focus was the war in Ukraine and trying to undermine support for Ukraine in the west at there has been a clip that has since gone viral since these allegations came out of one of the commentators who was targeted talking about how Ukraine is being Enemy of the United States are very clear Russian propaganda talking point but also brushes up PlayBook decisions.

They usually used in turning us elections as I've mentioned exploiting cultural divisions so going after issues in race in crime in abortion issues and all of these cultural issues were mentioned by somebodies commentators and very much with a right-wing viewpoint so no I mean.

The Division for any charges against RTA just one part of the vast a Ledge campaign by Russia to interfere with the election with told and what else did the US accuse them of absolutely so not only to our employees and they were also sanctioned by the US government as part of sanctions against a total of 10 or 2 employees who is the editor-in-chief of RT they also the US government sees more than 30 websites that were tied to spreading disinformation around the US election many of them posing as fake besides that might look similar to us news sites such as the Washington Post or box news.

You know it was interesting that they were announced by as I mentioned the attorney general in a very popular president and it does show that the Binding ministration is working to put the spotlight on some of these brush and affords ok with us, but just to understand more about the evolution of Russian disinformation.

Tactics that I want to bring in Catherine Belton who is international investigative reporter for the Washington Post and also author of Putin's people Catherine welcome to the show just talked to have significant using this indictment is thanks for having me on yes like monkeys saying the Biden administration is now really making a big point of this.

They don't want to repeat to what in 2016 when I had much more crew Tactics then it was kind of like a smashing grab campaign a Russian military intelligence operatives were caught basically hacking into DNC servers of the Democratic committee and then they leaked all the emails just a crucial point in the election campaign the election when Donald Trump was under scrutiny for various allegations of sexual mister meanors that basically this Russian hacking league campaign completely change the narrative all of a sudden.

Us media with screen to cover this inviting exposed by the Hacked emails of the democratic party services and now since then we can do this very clear evolution in the Russian Tactics it's much much more sophisticated now.

I guess it's because they're using us Talking Heads they're getting access to and I getting them to promote narratives, which open and essentially leverage splits and divisions which are already existing in US Society no doubt in part to the Russian propaganda efforts over the last 10 years that you left the site is becoming increasingly polarised Russia studies these splits very closely and 6 leverage them for its own advantage to weaken support for Ukraine and promote American isolationism in so long as the change in the media.

The rise of digital media of influences and more polar climate.

Yes sure.

I mean I was talking to the head of digital threat analysis team Clint what's who's been following all of this very closely for the last 10 years and he says 14 years ago.

You wouldn't have been able to get through the media commentators arguing against NATO arguing against support for Ukraine it.

Just wouldn't have happened and I remember Russian officials when I was in Moscow for the Financial Times back in 2007/2008 and they've been rushing their teeth at the power of the BBC in the CNN because I knew they wouldn't be able to break into but when social media case that was it basically that the world divided all of a sudden it, was you know open Season you could the media world was fragmented.

Get access to all kinds of audiences as we seen through these influences like some of the ones who've appeared through this indictment against tenant Media I have the millions and millions of and yet although in the US those regulation against paid election advertising this is a big loophole, because there's a regulation against paid for social media influencers and some of these guys.

We're getting $100,000 of Pop just for one podcast for an hour.

It's crazy money and how surprising is it that the orchestra David is by RT employees Hemsworth saying that RT said yeah, eventually mock the US government's accusations they said in a statement of the BBC that's 16 called it wants it's cliches back and it said three things are certain in life death taxes and artis interference in the US elections that was on season sarcastically.

Spell been very sarcastic and and since then I margarita simonyan the head of RTE the Russian propaganda chief is essentially admitted in a Anna tv.

Interview the weekend that yes, or tea is running convert propaganda campaigns to spread this information in the US even though the kremlin's denied when Simone young in the airwaves this weekend.

She couldn't help but boast about it.

I mean it's also evolution because like Maggie was saying RT mean it used to be on their way officially in the US sun across Europe but after Russian invasion of Ukraine it was banned but after that it seems they've gone underground then they created these convert print companies and funnelling money through shell companies and using this billionaire banker is the frontman to play music.

Chinese TV media campaigns but we did approach some of the influences allegedly involved and we haven't heard back but the commentators a public he said their victims of the alleged.

I wonder cancer in the presidential debate as everyone who's been paying attention to the US at took place last night watch by millions of people how much of an impact do you think this sort of in interference can having Harrison with bums on seats watching 50 million people on every day's watching that debate a depends.

How many views you get but as we know these influences who were getting paid $100,000 for their campaigns.

They have millions and millions of viewers.

They can have already they've already built themselves up as personalities.

They would claim of course that many of them have said that since this exposure in the doj indictment that you know we're just representing views that have been held in America

The time of the founding fathers and yes, there is always been strains of America and isolationism in US politics, but it's become much more prominent over the last 10 years because of the explosion of social media and the basically the division in the splintering of the of the Western media landscape snow and ice over this time.

We've seen my can aggregate build up and influences like it like I was saying like maybe 10 years ago.

You wouldn't have heard some of these narratives and now they give him or do you have a conservative TV host Tucker Carlson who was on Fox News now? He's got his own YouTube broadcast show and you know when cats from Moscow they wouldn't even they wouldn't some of these pay for influences wouldn't even his comments because they said it sounded like he was chilling for the Kremlin

Obviously not here to defendants haven't finished perspective Jonathan Hall is he's the UK government's independent reviewer of terrorism legislation Jonathan you and how much of a problem could this be here in the UK are you aware of such interference relating to the last election for example the government is enough because they bought in an offence of foreign interference under the new national 2023 and it was precisely deal with this sort of alleged Russian influence operations are the way in which the law now operates is it will look is deception used are people being asked covertly influence way that people vote or politicians act so it's something that the government's very very worried about Amy is really understand because this is not the first time the Russians have done it years ago.

There was an allegation against the internet research agency, which was funded by perversion the man who created the Wagner group again really sophisticated using money and and

Synonyms for social media has just been described.

Obviously not around anymore.

I remember that story when he was died on that plane and special circumstances Maggie just before you go ballistic.

I just wanted to ask you know as I was saying it was the presidential debate between Donald Trump and Carmel house last night you watched it I think in Washington and a bar was another reported.

What were you looking for and how did you compare notes absolutely public place in Washington during debates because it really is quite event here most of the bars at had drink specials.

You know there was one.

I knew someone is serving drinks and coconuts which has become a standing for a vice president Kamala Harris is campaign so it was interesting.

I think I was listening for you know I report on cybersecurity and tech issues.

I was hoping a little bit more of that would have come up it did not however.

I do think they had on kind of

The largest hot button issues, I'm in the US right now from abortion rights and access to the war in Ukraine to the one that does a strip and I will say watching it in Washington I think you would be it will be hard to find a bar that was pro a former President Donald Trump Washington is an incredibly Liberal City so it was certainly a mood jubilation vice president a Harris's performance in the bar at times.

You couldn't hear after one of her conversations are one of your answers, so I think I'm partial bar of January impartial bar.

That's all you got time for on this subject of the show but thank you so much Maggie Miller from the little girl and also Catherine Belton from the Washington Post Jonathan Hall is going to stay with us, but I do want and Jake can't offers from deadline.

Just tell a joke to have a spin through some of the other media stories that have come away starting with a new owner for the 196 year olds.

Tell us about support Marshall is the founder I know of one of Europe's largest hedge funds therefore very wealthy with the steak and some other media companies.

There's a good argument that can be made now that Paul Marshall is one of the UK's most influential news bands.

He has a significant improvements in GB news, which has a very stable and loyal audience in the UK now.

He also owns or has an investment in which is free thinking website and now he's bolted on The Spectator to this.

I mean he's not a great deal is known about him outside of sort of political and City circles fuse over the years and he started off in the STP thunder and then moved on through brexit to be a fun TV Leven

I mean, I'm sure I could be made that is a lot of his political views are our add-on GB news.

I think this is a fair deal.

I think I'll probably be questions as to whether he has overpaid potentially believe they were 100000000.

They may not have thought they would guess and be sold 400 million knows it's 30 times.

It's 20-22 earnings and that's against dropping which weighs regularly the moon the decay of traditional media and you have to say that's a really impressive valuation for The Spectator and a huge endorsement journalism.

I think the big questions that have been raised particularly by Andrew Neil he's now the former chairman.

He wrote a valedictory email to staff yesterday and which he raise questions about whether the Spectators

Disorder independence can be protected and spectator and and left yesterday once the deal was done having said he would leave if this happened.

That's right.

I mean there's No Love Lost between antenatal and Paul Marshall history essays basically said that the Pooh Marshall stop from coming to The Spectator summer party and because I got to be history with the GB news, which Andrew Neil was involved with that the launch and was presenting on it for a very short period for leaving in deeply acrimonious circumstances Media Baron but that's before we even talk about The Spectator cos I'm sorry the Telegraph because he's also in the running to buy that looks like it's very likely that he will become Telegraph owner.

He is a Consortium which is backed by a US

Ken Griffin I think it's about 3 other prospective buyers in the running but you could end up with a situation at the end of this year the that Paul Marshall owns use The Spectator and the Telegraph which will make him extremely powerful and invest in the company and absolutely influential and permanent voice particularly in right wing politics in the UK and there is another Media moment if you like to Mark this week.

I'd say which is come out of the regulator ofcom's annual report into news coverage and it shows for the first time the online sites and apps are now as popular as TV news so it was back in the 1960s that TV news over to radio and use this is the leading source of UK news now and the 2020 is 2024.

It's changed how worried should TV network speed you think whenever you're losing audience you're going to be.

Concerned but I mean there's always a lot of hand ringing around these reports have it on pretty glass half full on the things I did the BBC is a big part of that and that kind of surprises taken this long for the Tipping Point to come but it has now come but I think it's really important to say the audience and not just abandoning like traditional brought horses in public service broadcasters BBC One News audience might have declined but the BBC is still reaching nearly 70% of those surveyed by Ofcom through various means including Radio online BBC sounds and that puts the BBC miles ahead of any rival your most news organisations would kill for that kind of Rage and it is reported that the audience audience is still considered TV news the most trusted accurate and of the highest quality, so they don't rank online sources highly and that same way and I guess there's a question.

Sources even though they see them as less trustworthy than TV news that was particularly in annexe at the upcoming election in July and one finger that really stuck out to me as 52% of people surveyed said that they trusted TV news, but that figure would just dropped said to social media, so you're right people are consuming these alternative news sources, but they don't necessarily trust them and that I think we'll be a big fat forwards and I think is to the to the benefits of traditional news sources, which hopefully will retain that trust going forward that is the Perfect Moment to bring Jonathan Hall back in because I want to look now at Mis and disinformation online and your role as the Independent barrister who reviews terrorism legislation in that role, you said recently that the police need to be much more open.

Information where there is intense public interest in a case and you were prompted I think by the office cabins in Southport in July when three children were killed and ate more injured just explain why it sounds a bit corny doesn't it? But the way that the authorities respond to these sorts of incidents of terrorism attack or something that looks like a tear is my taco has happened in Southport and Massacre of children.

You want the public to feel that things have been dealt with that.

They should be reassured that the severity has been recognised if your throat is dealing with it and they are dealing with it in a proper way, so the general principle as much information as possible and now we know because of social media in the fact that people will go to their phones to find out in the immediacy.

What could it be because everyone wants to know don't know what was happening the risk of disinformation and what we saw after the Southport Massacre was that really bad rumour about a fixture from person called Olly Alexander who is a small boat.

People who dependently carried out and that went on I think that was unaddressed by information from the police for up to 8 hours.

There's really only that the evening of that day, but please put more information of the public domain so there was that too late? Isn't it what you're saying is I need to get it out quickly because otherwise there's this information black hole and gets filled.

They want to find out immediately and I think we're learning and the same was true the Nicola bully case I've been Lancashire there's a report their critical of the police for not putting out information and also they just be neutral and factual and sober and I think let people know what's going on and squeeze out the disinformation compromising the integrity of the trial considerations from the police interview if it's a live investigation.

They may not want to put stuff in the public domain which might tip-off co-defendants.

Other conspirators, that's always a possibility and the other one is if you've got someone who's not easier actually if the perpetrator attacks is dead.

I'm afraid to say but if they're alive there's going to be a trial of course.

I want to be careful not to Prejudice the trial, but there's still quite a lot that you can say as in fact happened a h later the police did put more information in the domain that was going to register trial but it appears to be a bit too late.

There's a journalist in what's called The Legacy or mainstream media On Fishing here.

I suppose but putting social media side.

Are you saying you trust the media to act responsibly and calm tension situations because I suppose that's not always giving is it? I'm talking about the police's position understand the journalist have particularly dilemmas as to what they can say when there's going to be a trial and please get their information out through them, but they can also tweet out directly they can they can communicate directly with the public and I would have thought that if the police do communicate something the mainstream Media will pick it up if it's done in that responsible and and and and practical way.

Acute exacerbate tensions, do you think I'm in for example if the attacker was from a marginalised group or something with that with the would you put caveats in that actually think about this if it's going to say don't do it.

How do you see that? I think the police have got to be responsible for safety on the ground and reality is if releasing information would lead to massive right and loss of life, then I guess I would the police take that decision, but there is a bigger point and I just listening to check was saying it's really important that we maintain trust in institutions.

There is love this information around and also if you have got to go to some trusted BBC Weather the government when the police for the truth and if we have this information has been authorised by for example Russia in the run-up to an election and they would have been watching course.

I love seeing how that is played into the right if that happened in an election period you would need a trusted voice you can say actually that's not true.

Are you saying when it comes to Southport the police were to risk of us, yes?

And what do you think behind that? I think it's a lack of appreciation of the power of social media and Andover caution about prejudice in a fair trial in the event.

They were able to say that he was born in Cardiff that he was the second generation random.

He didn't come on this number because they're all of these things without purchasing the trial.

I think they were nervous so I think that the authorities the police need to have national get together and work out some stand it's because this is going to happen again and again.

Didn't it social media is so important and I think the people are entitled to ask themselves.

What's going on when he's really terrible incidents happened sometimes I suppose hand-wringing.

Isn't there and we say oh goodness Nothing Can Stop this room as well and I suppose even with transparency you argue that social media platforms or people on them can still distort exaggerate factual report but do you think what you're suggesting would solve the problem or just help help.

That is not the total answer and how do you balance the public's right to know and the privacy rights of individuals including the post that suffocates and victims and their families well.

I think this is where the top of the police.

I mean because of Us supreme court judgement 2 years ago called zxc.

The media know that people have been arrested but not yet taken to call have a right to privacy and they may be a bit wary about publishing information about this happened with with with huw Edwards after his arrest at the mainstream Media didn't feel able to publish that fact until the actual appeared in court because nobody was standing up.

Please wouldn't understand OK OK fine, but the Police don't quite have the same concerns because they will be safe themselves whatever the reason expectation of privacy that might arise after the fact that somebody is a 17-year old person from Cardiff there's a bigger public interest isn't there in ensuring that you don't get that sorted disinformation bearing in mind the consequences just stay with us.

James Coney who is news project editor of the Sunday Times at James I know you're going to talk in a moment about your papers coverage of Lucy letby, but before we get to that.

I just wondered what you think what you made of Jonathan whose remarks about faith in the justice system.

I think we have a sexy means that we are now prioritising the needs of the individual over the needs of showing Swift action by the police explain what this is a legal case that basically I ended up with us putting the rights of an individual at the point of a rest to not be identified.

It's not a blanket ban, but most of the media treated like a blanket ban because of the risk of saving sued at the end of it.

So you have to consider at the moment of the point of a rest weather.

Identify this does essentially is create a vacuum to which Jonathan has just been describing where the world of social media which does not seem to abide by any kind of Santa Claus that the mainstream Media Go by are able to act and in the case of Southport I think it was particularly important was there you know we had a new government who had a new mandate and we had I need to see policing under a new government inaction and we couldn't report that because of the Blackout that there was on information and it was really important that build-up back trust in policing is vitally important in this case but then lots of cases that you can see the police in Action more, so you know in cases where there might be a hostile environment and what do you think is motivating the police caution in your view in his talked about the medias concerns over publication of names of the point of a rest, but it is it actually when it comes to the police.

Sign of the deteriorating relations between the police and the media I mean what I always try and courage from are reported here is to have a collaborative relationship between the two parts of the same ecosystem in in many ways and developing that good rapport.

Is it can be good on both sides? I do think there's too much portion.

I think actually we need to get back to a point where we show that we have faith in a jury and judge Sistema trials, so that we have to have the confidence that judges will be able to direct the jury in such a way that they can ignore the noise of the past so that please can feel confident in naming Suspects of the point of the rest and just explain two people to our audiences.

Why you if the journey and worried about naming somebody why if the police gave more information that would help the reporting and enable you to not be so cautious.

I mean if you look at the case.

That would have allowed us to be able to do is explain two people than the person who's been arrested which would have then hopefully calm down son of the social media rumours and actually allowed there to be 4 miles an environment.

That's just one example that you can think of it doesn't always work that you have to take you know certainly we take each case and we have name two people at the point of the rest before where we think there is a vital public and health frustrating is it to watch as a journalist to watch social media takeover where you know you've got information.

You're jealous have got information, but they're from reporting the fact.

I mean I think you're coming to this morning.

We talked about our coverage of Lucy letby, but there are obviously restrictions when there is contempt of court proceedings in place and then you watching the mainstream Media largely abiding by the rules of the port and the justice system it can be incredibly frustrating when you want to be able to publish.

You think is a public interest that you think will help enhance public debate but you're restricted from doing so well everybody on social media and actually but it doesn't I think it destroys trust him to stay Justin policing and trust in journalism, because it makes it look like this some kind of big state operating all conspiring for silence when actually they're not they just abiding by the rules to try and help somebody get a fair trial and I know I sometimes felt frustrated in my reporting in the past where you think the police must understand.

We are publishers broadcasters whatever.

We are we are legally responsible for what we publish not let us publish things that I'm going to be contempt of causal or whatever it might be because no jealous want to go to jail for that yep, do you think the police sometimes forget that I think they do forget that I think that you know quite often I hear from reporters who have been elected by the police about the contents of court rules for getting that.

There is no journalist really that wants to go to prison for accidentally.

I suppose can you blame people for going to social media when you know jealous have information and you can't publish it.

What is just an outlet for people's voices is there? I mean it's a kind of natural debating board the frustration.

Is is that it seems to be operating in a completely different mainstream Media oil take on that I mean.

It's hardly surprising that people do go to social media Wi-Fi can't find the information and in a more mainstream outlets that sounds like what I'm saying that they need to be more confident taking the lead because that will liberate the mainstream Media to fill that feel like that and he's pointing is really crucial about the institutions ultimately terrorism is about trying to undermine the country Russia roll.

Go back to Russia is trying to undermine our sense of security and are trusting one another so it is really crucial role both immediate and the police have to pay any circumstances and thank you very much for coming on that because we said we're going to talk about Lucy letby and that enquiry and trial in a moment, but first BBC director-general Tim Davie has been understood.

In House of Lords he was asked by committee chair Baroness whether the BBC was going to recoup any of the disgraced former news presenter huw Edwards salary the BBC has been trying to get back around £200,000 as a salary paid to whoever's after his arrest for making indecent images of children and before he resigned from the BBC just have a listen to what I said BBC's positions clear the money in should be returned.

We made the request.

I don't believe we set a deadline we but we do expect to make progress and get an answer and and if it is not forthcoming in repairing that money you have already resolved that you will endeavour to pick up with that money throughout the legal process.

We will explore that but as I said I said I think that is challenging.

I think at the moment because you

We made that request Mr woods and that's what we will Jake counter from deadline is still here having heard that in that conversation with Tim Davie in in the House of Lords committee.

I'm not going to ask person.

I also want to know the answer to but what's your sense of weather here Edwards will hand back that money and also whether the BBC will take legal action if he doesn't I just want to have you all of this but this is speculation because you don't know you were with his position.

I think we can probably read between the lines a little bit of view reminder to return the money would have stopped what's stopping in from doing that now and responding to the BBC in cooperating.

I think if he was planning on doing they probably would have done it by now.

It's not entirely clear some games from antibacterial.

Not entirely sure it's going to rehabilitate his image.

That has been suggested that he might do is a head of sentencing as a source of showing to the judge that he's of reform character.

Best that'll be really interesting and if that is the case will find out about it in the next few days because sentencing is on Monday and I think you can hearing that clip Tim Davie just fair that you I think he's been really clear that any legal effort to try and call back this cash will be incredibly Katie is probably quite costly and could well be a hiding to nothing and I think you can kind of sense and hear a slight reluctance in his tone weather BBC well actually, it's you that but I think it has to make all the right noises about endeavour Ringgit to do it best to get this money back and I think the most revealing things actually that Lord hearing yesterday was Tim Davie said that the BBC could have been more muscular in the way that it approached the way with case when it found out about his arrest in November last year.

Because persevered bbj was also appearing he said again, but he had with actions of damaged the BBC's reputation.

I suppose question around that muscular point is in a how much of the accountant at the door of BBC management as well as he Redwoods of course.

He's getting out.

There is whether the BBC could have made an effort to stop paying here Edwards at the point if found out about his rest kept him on the books as an employee but said we are not going to pay you during this period that you are suspended and not on there and I think it is acknowledged that facts suggest that the BBC thinking about that is an issue and it may well influence future policy and therefore you may see it sort of coming to play the future.

Where is the presenter is in a similar to the BBC may well move to stop paying that individual because it is in trying their policies and this hasn't been the only story in the BBC in the spotlight as we said.

The programme Strictly Come Dancing Returns this weekend after months of claims about the behaviour of some of its professional dancers and Jake still awaiting a BBC report into the Amanda Abbington accusations against her dance partner Giovanni panichi claims.

He denies.

Just tell us that what the BBC's thinking might be about publication.

It's really difficult the tabloids have been sort of salivating over the prospect of the BBC publishing something I actually think that's highly unlikely is no no I mean if you look at your case as a as a starting point the BBC has done very little in terms of talking about the point of resignation and has been very very well.

It's been treating it as an employee matter.

I think there is a similar.

Circumstances here with Giovanni panichi there are lots of noises about the process of the BBC is going through Amanda Abbington has done a number of interviews in which he has a bad experience and handling of the case my instinct is that because she's doing surveys interviews and has made some criticisms of the BBC's perhaps a little worried that the investigation won't go in her Direction That's certainly been some of the reporting in the tabloid newspapers, but even if the BBC does not publish.

I mean this has been so well chronicled in the tablets now.

I'll be very surprised if we learn nothing about the outcome of that back desiccation and I'm already dealt with a bit like we're doing some sort of only BBC shows but away from the Scandal there is another BBC story the new culture secretary Lisa Nandy as Wade into the debate about how to fund the BBC Talking a mutualisation as an option something.

She previously talked about in her 2020 leadership campaign just talk me through what is neutralisation and have a lizard as a way to find the BBC BBC busy.

Yeah, it's a good idea that Lisa Nandy really likes she talked about in 2020 and she raised it again in the Financial Times interview this week.

She has said these things without providing any real to how it would work.

So what am I thinking about a way that it can represent a licence repairs in BBC decision-making rather than that being purely the domain BBC management or the government setting hr3 decade it will be complicated.

It will be pretty radical have to say but there were signs that the BBC is open to this suggestion Samir Samir Shah again.

On that Lords Committee on Wednesday I was it was quite open-minded an upbeat about it and I think the thing that he quite likes about this.

Idea.

Is it is it could for protect the BBC's independence and there have been questions about that independence and the way the BBC has been dealing with the government in the conservative.

Government has often been feeling over last 10 years or so that the government has increased on BBC's independence more than it should have done one thing that's near sharp mentioned is the fact that he thinks that the board is a bit out of balance the government can make five appointments to the BBC board and he suggested that that is a little hi, so that's 11.

It should keep an eye on a counter from Dublin thank you very much most illuminating at least in terms of what actually is neutralisation.

I'm gonna move on because the public enquiry into baby deaths at the Countess of Chester Hospital by the convicted serial killer Lucy letby, worked began yesterday a growing number of arguing that Lucy letby May in fact be innocent senior court of Appeal judge lady Thirlwall who's overseeing the enquiry referred to the controversy surrounding the verdict when opening proceedings.

Yeah, there's been a huge outpouring of comment from a variety of quarters on the validity of the convictions so far as I'm aware.

It has come from people who are not at the trial.

Parts of the evidence have been selected and criticised as has the conduct of the defence at trial about which those defence lawyers can say nothing all this noise has caused enormous additional distress to the parents who have already suffered far too much that was Lady towel talking at the beginning of the enquiry Judith Moritz is the BBC's north of England correspondent.

She was in court for the duration of Lucy letby trial and spent nearly a year observing her closely, but I want to start with James cone news project editor the Sunday time to you heard from earlier, because it was the Sunday Times that published a lengthy investigation into this story last weekend James as we said the enquiry began yesterday and we have from Lady tells the story is really been out of the news recently.

What are the latest developments before we come to the enquiry since we've had the second trial and

The outcome of that which was obviously another guilty verdict since then what we've heard from is numbers of statisticians neonatologist other pediatricians you have voiced concerns about the way that evidence was presented at trial and that includes what has become known as the rotor which was basically a spreadsheet that showed Lucy letby was on duty during all of their unexpected collapses in the house of baby things like whether the insulin evidence presented because some of the babies died allegedly from from an insulin.

Overdose about the use of the breathing tubes in the babies each one of these little bricks that built up the wall the prosecution case and picking holes in them and has been what started as a kind of drip drip drip on social media and blogger then.

I kind of made its way into the mainstream Media there's been a documentary on Channel 5 about it and most notably actually what there was a big article in the New York which was published in the US during the time of her second trial blocks that you can't access it on the internet for readers over here, but of course inevitably did the rounds during a trial play people were talking about it was brought up by David Davis in the House of Commons as to why it was so therefore what we've had since then is a real pattern of just building up of people and highlighting different what they see is V in the evidence and the Sunday Times as I said last weekend having spoken to the families of some of the baby is took us through how are you approach them? And what they told you what we actually want to do with go right back to the start and explain two readers everything that has happened so far and bring in every single.

Debate so that men speaking to the families and subfamilies haven't spoke this the parents of babies being out as they were no one who died one who was survived an attack by Lucy letby.

Have not spoken since the end of the trial and we wanted to get their voices across as well as trying to explain to readers.

What was going on with the claims about the mistakes in the trial and also who is leading them and how they became involved with all those side to their and I think what we have to do when we approach the brownies and the approaching to the lawyers was explained to them that we wanted to give them a voice 22 and a robust fashion because we also wanted to you know.

They are part of this as well, but also to give them the triangle have their side and reflect on what they've heard because again just like the journalist that spent the entire time in the trial.

And the family spent most of the time in the along with the jury and events in the prosecution teams that one of the few people who have actually been there and saw the whole case as Justice there was saying an agenda stay with us, but I want to bring and Judith Moritz BBC's nothing and corresponding you are also one of the people who spent in a many hours of the hearings about Lucy letby the national Media are out in force as well at the enquiry.

I want to just how that Compares in terms of the interest for doing the trial and the enquiry.

Locate my interest as obviously escalated not just recently with this enquiry, but over the last year 18 months and just to give you some just a small number of reported in the court room and I was one of them actually in the courtroom itself throughout letby.

Trial there were only 5 seats for the media and the three of us are the whole way through and that there was also an accent over spell annexe for lots of other reporters and there was a lot of interest during the trial but we didn't have that case which lasted for the best part of the year were I would say you know the community of writers blogger people running forums.

They were not in the courtroom certainly and they weren't in the media annexe.

I noticed when I went back to court for the retrial because the jury of the first case was unable to decide on all of the charges and one of them has brought back to court.

Turn the temperature in murder charge was brought back to court for a retrial at that by that point and that was in the spring of this year interest of grown up a blogger and commentators and others who had joined the media pack if you like the enquiry and I'm talking to you now from outside the the enquiry at Liverpool Town Hall at the traditional mainstream.

Have you gone to describe Media in the court room again? Just a small number of seats in the hearing room.

There is an overspill area as well, but it's also this is not mean live streams quiry up that but clips of it is being recorded so the clips of it can be shown and actually the last 2-days today and yesterday have been the opening statement to the enquiry and they have been that they're all the way through that has been recorded and will be shown online so people can watch to a degree as well and externally for what is an effort to provide information to.

Combat the Miss information that might be swelling to think in any sense.

Possibly at and the context of that is that before the enquiry got under way.

They were preliminary discussions and preliminary hearing which the families and James talks about the families families of the babies at their lawyers made representations about this enquiry about how it would be covered and they talked about Avon they said to have it livestream fully and by the way that that is something that they were turned down on but the reason they were arguing for it.

They said through their lawyers.

What are there in a proliferation of conspiracy theories they said which have sprouted quoting here from there from their address sprouts bread and Fester on social media blogs and on websites and that has been grossly offensive and distressing for those families and they saw live streaming as a way in which to throw this entire process very much into the open now.

Didn't go with the suggestion of full live streaming, but she is allowing as I said before this to be recorded and then for broadcasters to be able to reply it.

It's a compromise position.

Let me just bring me back in the mirror was reporting thousands of people have joined Facebook group to discuss in the case for your article your team spoke to some of the individuals behind anonymous accounts that are driving speculation about the Lucy letby case what did you did you get the sensor? What's motorway?

They were very nice to speak about it, but I think that they're initial starting point was that they felt that there had been a lot of discomfort and lots of sympathy towards at the difficult but the most of those people now joining the kind of calls is that right from the moment of Lisa let me the rest before we leave any case there was General disbelief that a young nurse could have done as a young as he was you know well and actually a hard worker and that's not up without even during the trial before the trolley been completed there were blogger there were people trying to find Klaus in the evidence and the disputing away that have been presented and I do know is that you know the the jury in this case didn't just take individual bits of evidence they use the mounting evidence that they were presented with and show.

An ability to be able to pick through it because he was not convicted on every single charge.

They did find her not guilty on Sam and had a guilty on others so now calling for faults in the trial.

Is that this rhetoric was building even before the trials of finished online ok? I just want to bring you back in and just as well that I do believe the parents of EMF have spoken cos they spoke to BBC Panorama as well before but but in terms of enquiry you encountering people who are commenting about it online about individuals who come to recognise that from the trial although there is a regular comment online Katie absolutely and yeah, I think of where we are in the world isn't it? I think though that there are if I may say I think perhaps two parallel universes running here.

There.

Is that the universe of a courtroom of the judicial process of the trial process of the enquiry the way those?

Appeal that the judgement of the court of Appeal published which I would have everybody to re because that is absolutely you know very very key moment in this entire Saga and then there is a public opinion and what has been said online and those two things do not currently it across the entire piece match up and that's if that the rubbing up against each other in some ways and in some places and that is why you here parents like those who not just the not just seen this by the Way Through The Eyes Of Being the parents of babies effective they also went to the trial there any other parents were there in the court room throughout the first trial and after that and the parents here at the public enquiry as well, and they say you know we saw all of this evidence we saw the evidence that the presented with us well and we feel that the people who are commenting out there who was saying that they have problems with this will not in court.

They didn't see for example Lucy letby In The Witness box.

Take the whole picture into account.

Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm afraid we are and have run out of time.

Thank you so much Judith Moritz from the BBC and James comey from the Sunday time.

That's all we've got time for this week, but I will be back again next week until then.

Thanks very much goodbye music Radio podcasts humanities journey to understanding the body has been in Corrie one littered with unethical experiment unintended consequences and unimaginable pain in the human subjects from BBC Radio 4 investigate the stories of the discoveries that came at Great human cost the ones that also saved countless lives and after Julius and friends connecting modern day medicine to it often brutal origins and reveal the Untold Stories of the people who enjoyed them listen on BBC sounds.