Read this: Grenfell: the journalists and bloggers who warned of disaster

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What is being with Ukrainian forces in occupied Russia reporting from the Frontline but who's winning a battle for the narrative in this war going to start with grateful because the final report from the enquire into the disaster has been published.

It's the lead story at the moment as you'd expect then in the last 7 years since that fire that killed 72 people in West London journalist have returned again and again to this tragedy and explore the role of the media in the ground full story with a survivor and with journalists, but before me hear from them.

Let's consider the report is found a hugely significant moment for the bereaved and survivors, but a huge media event to it runs to 1700 pages and it is scared about the chain of failures that led to the fire 72 deaths were entirely avoidable.

It says the result of decades of failure the Granville community was badly.

Down by governments by the London Fire Brigade and by the dishonest companies involved in refurbishing the tower get there has been reported as an unedifying merry-go-round of Dr Kate lamble has been following the enquiry closely for years First for the BBC grenfell Tower enquiry podcast and more recently for her Radio 4 podcast grenfell building at the weather's from the Lancaster Way West estate at the foot of grenfell Tower thank you very much indeed for joining.

There is joining us I wonder when you another journalist first was Liverpool

So we saw the report there were two looking the first was yesterday afternoon and the second was this morning some generous went to both some went to one or the other and that first in yesterday was the same time but families receive the report it was designed that way because in 2019 during the last enquiry report families received it before the media was under and that's when the reporter leaked distinctly upset many of the Breeze survivors and residents at that time and your referencing what you're calling a locking just explain how that works essentially it.

Just it used to be that you went into a room and the door was locked behind you that's why it's called a locking but essentially journalists are brought into a room and they get given the report sometimes as it was yesterday.

Are you giving it in a hard copy other times as it was doing the infected blood enquiry yet giving it on a laptop and you get given a certain amount of time to read it and digest it before that.

Is publicly and that's just allow genus to get their head around the story to find out what the most important lines are so that when that report is released its it means that the news is ready to go that are the copy of written people are ready to report on the most important lines to use your phrase are because this report is incredibly long 17 pages.

You won't have had a chance to read it for days and days as you might do other sources in your reporting so in that short period of time.

How do you and your colleagues both within the BBC and and outside of the BBC decide which points that you want to emphasise here the whole report.

I've got a copy of it next to me.

It's 10 kg in weight the pages is an executive summary.

What is century a boiled down version of that report is only 33 pages much quicker to go through and it means that you can go through that sit around the table.

Colleagues normally each outlets obbc was in a different table 4 mpa or Sky or any other outlets and you'll sort of like all those through highlight the bits that you think of them and then discussed it and has to have a bit more argument really over over this particular the thing that matters are actually I think it is more criticism here and what you really looking for it is in this report because having watch the enquiry.

We know that how they finished was talking about this weather blame this image of how each other companies involved into the fig and another rather than taking on responsibility for themselves, so we knew in advance that untangling that web assigning responsibility with the key part of this report we going through looking for how that possibility was assigned hello.

Ok, please do stay with us, but I want to hear now.

We want here now from one of the survivors of the fire escape from the 16th floor.

He was one of the authors of the grenfell action blog which weighs multiple complaints about fire safety in the years before the tragedy and we wanted to get his perspective on the medias role in this story.

I spoke to him a head of the reports publication and I asked him first how he was feeling in this big week for bereaved and survivors when I think about the report at all at the first thing that comes to mind is that lives on the night of 14th of June 2017 in the most horrific Manor and everything that comes out of this report is a consequence of 72 lives so my first thought is always with the family members and Incredibly difficult time that they will be going through at this present time and the eyes of well the world certainly the eyes of the UK are on you again on you all as a community on the enquiry on grenfell as a story it's right back up there.

It's

And all the papers, how does it feel now to be back in the spotlight? You know what's happening with the publication of reports is a very significant moment in are awful journey through this tragedy meaning in the days after the buyer with the tsunami of press coverage that was quite overwhelming and of course when we get to the one-year anniversary and by your anniversary moments like this, then you know we become like you know the the eyes of the world are upon us again, but there was some very kind of quieter times where there's always a feeling that grenfell happened like just over 7 years ago and I think the perception that the things have been sorted out and we can move on from it, but things haven't been sorted out and when the phone is very difficult because I'm obviously there's so much that needs to be resolved and is kind of a feeling that you know in a world of sort of like rolling new.

It's very difficult to keep the fact that you know so little has changed in the public consciousness.

I want to go back to before the disaster because you were the co-author of the blog of the grenfell Action group, which was founded in 2010 whatever that that point had you been making to get journalist to report on the safety issues that you don't covered at grenfell.

Well.

I mean a blog with was really in response, so I kind of my landlord treated us like like we were third class citizens and behave like a minimap that we were very lucky.

We had a journalist called a Camilla Horrocks who work for the Kensington Chelsea chronicle and was very switched it on to kind of what was going on and when you cancel all our landlord the TMO would put out a statement you look she was always careful enough to come to us and allow us the dignity of being able to respond but sadly.

I think it was 2014 the Chelsea Chronicle closed down or was amalgamated and obviously the focus on local issues was diluted and we kind of lost the ability to even on a very local level.

I haven't heard your voice heard, but we just carry on regardless, then I think we understood that logging and our blogs with something that was quite new to ask but was something that was quite powerful and at least allowed us to have a voice that way and we talk about love on the media show obviously about the cuts to local journalism.

That's hard on our democracy on reporting stories more widely.

Perhaps Granville is another example of that when it came to the national Media where are you trying to reach out to people were journalists interested in housing issues in miles to that is no really I think it away.

We kind of you know what we did understand very clearly is.

Irish shoes were contained on our estate the council and or landlord, they were in total control and I think our power came from when we were able to kind of distribute our stories and are concerned wider.

I wouldn't want to call myself a journalist, but we will definitely belt that we were undertaking very important functions and I think logs were becoming menacing such a power in a way in and it quite medicine to to the council and to our landlord and you know I'm in the car and you know on the night of a fire the bloke that we wrote in November 2016 about the fact that we almost saw the catastrophic events that were coming like and I think the last count we had like 35 million hits on people watching it so the idea that you know it never gone out.

There was proved completely wrong on the night of the fire in every talk about the night of the fire and you mentioned you know a tsunami.

Unless you I was definitely one of them you arrived.

You know early that morning when you were in that clearly very traumatised is everybody was by what was happening and the building still burning.

What was your initial view and your when you look back now on how journalists behave what kind of mistakes people made an immediate aftermath of the fire and I literally my phone.

I was getting like 150 calls.

I mean I couldn't I couldn't keep up with my phone and what about men is that I was struggling to kind of get to speak to my family and tell people that I was alive and then I remember one night.

I went to bed and turn my phone up and I woke up in the morning and I had like missed calls right Australia and New Zealand and places like that.

Please stay I don't answer my phone to a number that I don't recognise I was so traumatised by The Avalanches intrusion into my life.

We've made over the over the last 7 years we have some very trusted journalists that have stuck by us that we trust but also you know there's another side that coin no interesting rental turn up when the story and don't even really research the kind of background to the information that they're getting and that's kind of the more typical side of it and I wonder to about the being asked to relive what happened because I was very aware that that is something that we know now traumatised is retraumatization PTSD and it's something that journalist do I wonder whether you felt there was too much of that certain in the early days.

About 2 months ago when we had the 7th year anniversary I spoke on the Today programme and I didn't say that.

I didn't want to talk about the fire but they they kind of interviewed me.

I was one question about the anniversary and then the second question I was asked what about my experience on the night at the fire and but I don't actually have a problem talking about what happened to me on the night of the buyer, but it just built to me that you know there was some really important matters that we wish to discuss Centre to get into the public Arena and yet.

There's kind of this salacious concentrate on what happened on the night of the fire but look with another site to it as well.

Is that you know like there's some horrific footage of what happened at grenfell and it's very upsetting to look at and see it's been something that we bought about carefully and United's last AGM we brought up to our members.

You know like you know like a fool.

We've always come.

Showing pictures of the buyer and dealing with that side of it, but you know like how do people feel now and and impact the consensus kind of moved from some sort of not wanting to show understanding that the keep grenfell you know in the public consciousness to remind people that what an absolute nightmare and and and and traumatic event it was that you know that there is that there is a prize in showing the fire so yeah, it's a very Cold Hearted practical decision to think smart about how we can keep rent and what is the best way of doing that that was a definite member of Grandpa United and a survivor of the fire let's bring in our colleague from BBC News Kate lamble who was with us to go because Kate both you and Katy here in the media show studio in different ways had interacted with people who have been directly affected by this disaster and have done.

For many years I wonder how both of you balance the desire to highlight important issues and tell important stories with the fact that you're aware that some people have not had an entirely positive experience of in the media posts Katie first.

I think it was important for me personally to make sure that it was a positive experience for anybody I met so that is about of course building trust and this is a story I was there from the very first day and I will never ever forget the horror of that first day, but I was really even back then I do remember thinking you need to be mindful quite hard traumatised everybody is and you don't really like your fighting the journalistic impulse, which is I need to get a good story here, but equally you're a human being and I felt I hope I put my humanity first and I hope that what I've done over the years is build up trust.

We always knew that we wanted very early on as working for Newsnight we wanted to do a definitive early on because we knew that the enquiry that would be an enquiry.

Provident and it takes 7 years to get the full report that we knew we wanted to do something early that did explain what happened, but we can only do that of course with by ensuring that the people involved people very traumatised you with struggle your suffered very badly on the night.

We're willing to talk to us, but they we were lucky that they felt it was important for them to do that because you were working from Newsnight Katie involved into podcast relating to grateful for the BBC what about you? How have you approached interacting with those directly affected knowing that not all of their experiences with the media would have been positive.

I think the People's experiences with the media in the other night and on the immediate aftermath of the Flies always present and then we know some family members one giving information from hospitals be pretending to be family members.

We know someone found out about the death of their loved ones from the news and that 7 is on deeply affects people's relationship and so it's all about always have.

My mind my point is always there.

I never want to tell you graphic details of what happened and there are so many of them and less that is a way of explaining an underlying truth about the building lettered explain something about what happened why the fire was so bad.

How that material was put on the building and so it's about making that between allow people to express their experiences sharing people's understanding well understanding that what they want to get across this thing that particularly news isn't always putting across the new Once and technical details and long-term story that is grenfell Tower thank you very much indeed for joining is from West London and cakes podcast entitled building a disaster you can find out on BBC sounds you can also find her extensive reporting on the BBC News website to one of the things the whole Grandpa's story has done as soon and light on the importance of special.

Because general these publications have a time struggled with the technical nature of the enquiry evidence even before the Fire one.

Specialist outlet inside housing was like head warning about fire safety concerns in social housing across the country and Sophie Barnes who's now investigations correspondent at the Telegraph was previously deputy news editor inside housing Sophie welcome to the media show I know you with Peter apps that your colleagues identified.

How's he later wrote a really scaring but I would encourage people to read about the tragedy you discovered dangerous materials were being used to clan accommodation to improve energy efficiency and that was before the Fire how did you come across that story so I was writing a feature about the lack of a house fire which was a fire in 2009 where 6 people died tragically including three children.

And Southwark Council who responsible for liking my house we're being prosecuted in the court for a fire safety failures so I was speaking to my various sources about Bracknell house, and if any lessons have been learned from like my house and what had changed as a result and was quite shocked to hear from Sam Webb who is retired to his whole career be much company padlock safety and trying to expose the issues there he told me actually this cabin is on lots of blocked all over the country and you knew that Granville wendolyne.

You knew that then before you were reporting on this before the tragedy of March 2017 so we were told in March 2017 that they were blocked all over the country that had dangerous cladding on them did anybody else pick up?

Was there any interest from the national Media and what you are writing that time no, no that changed yeah? Yeah, I mean we heard from journalist a journalists a bit before June 2017.

We're just kind of very technical questions week sometime the Horizon think so here we go but June 2017 14th of June 2017 there was obviously a huge increase in get in touch with us and asking questions and actually at that week.

I felt like it was our moral Duty in a way to help those John listen to get our expertise out there and to report as wide as possible or these issues and as in-depth as possible to try and you know educate people as quick as possible to try and make sure it didn't happen again because did it feel that there was of course a gap between your knowledge and your ex.

Is somebody who knows and reported a lot on housing issues and the wider Media who are now focused on this story after the technical detail really good technical stuff and you know it's a tricky story to get across to a general audience and I think it was done very well post-grenfell.

I think before grenfell.

It was kind of scene.

I think I think basically journalist in quite a kind of cold light which is completely understandable witches there's been individual fires and across the country, but not a huge amount of people have died and therefore it is actually an issue.

That is really kind of dressing and so it kind of specialist like us who understood the ramifications to bring that home to people in terms of be that just one of fire this might be a national issue and there's somebody who had already been covering it.

That day when you found out what was happening on that awful day and June I want to have your phone.

I mean it must be chilling for everybody but you knew you had been writing about it already, but it might happen.

I have to say I won't ever forget that morning and somewhere to head mention to have been campaigning on this issue for all of his career rang me and I had said I woke up and I just had a message from him saying turn on the news turned on the news and saw the tower and it was devastating yeah, Sophie Barnes thank you very much.

Well, let's consider further how the media has approached this story here in the media studio is Gary young.

He's sociology professor at the University of Manchester and also the host of the podcast over the top and under the radar Gary thank you very much indeed for joining us your podcast one of the things that it Focuses on is trying to understand why certain stories.

Get the attention they get all the attention.

They don't get and I wonder what she's listening to a guess how you assessed the media coverage of the issues around the grenfell Tower before the disaster in the media coverage wants the disaster heard unfolded.

Yeah.

I think that beforehand you have this the collapse of local journalism which has already been mentioned which is Which is a real problem because grenfell it itself is a local story if we're just talking about because we're not talking just about going because I've heard they were all over the place and then I think you get into class actually how many

Economist this is in the Sutton Trust report I think 3 or 4 years ago that economists and national newspapers are more likely to have gone to Oxbridge and private school then High Court judges.

I think that if they've been a report evening March that year about cutting and social housing and journalist a number of journalist a significant number of you actually had experience of living in social housing new people and social housing for him.

That was part of their world.

I think they were a little more urgently and I think the last thing before hand is this kind of this tricky finger.

We have in the media where you know when I studied journalism dog bites a man.

That's the story man.

That's not a story when man about a dog.

It's a story but sometimes you have to ask yourself who owns these dogs and why are people?

Do people keep getting bitten journalism has this habit or impulse to go for the drama when actually for example in America there's not been an increase in the number of white people being shot by the police.

There's an increase in the number of German still taking paying attention and so these were things that they will wait until somebody dies.

Will wait until this is big enough which is also kind of you.

No more or less similar thing to the politicians use this is a problem, but nothing too bad, but how do you shift that emphasis that emphasis on waiting for something to happen? You've worked for and with the Guardian for many many years so you know one of the country's best-known publications in in great detail.

Why do you think it is so hard not just for the Guardian book for The Empress as a whole to shift that emphasis on waiting for something off an awful to have.

I think part of it is what we consider the nature of news like the kind of the understanding that a problem that is about to happen in the same as a problem that has happened in there are any one day thousands problems that may happen, but there are a few the day and then I can understand but I do think that particularly you get a spot news now so much from social media and someone there is more room in journalism to actually just lift the lid on some things that keep coming up whether it's domestic violence all knife crime or the state of social housing or property and say that we write about these things all the time but we write about them each time as a roundabout and for the first that's not necessary, but it will it would take a German stick culture that understood the Eminem and you have to take.

I'm actually not everybody has to be chasing the ambulance some people might want to look at where the ambulance has come from or where is going or who's in the ambulance? Is it the same person as in the ambulance last week that you can a person that week before the maybe that's the story so I think that these things ultimately we should be shifting our understanding of what constitutes news.

I think I'd like to pick up something with you at DEFCON said somebody else going to a lot over the years.

I found it when I spoke to him earlier this week incredibly moving and actually feeling that he said about how they have decided the grandpa survivors the bereaved then I'm willing to have the footage shown on TV to keep attention on my calls because I've been so I've been in the enquiry earlier on where everybody left, but as they were warned you know we're going to show this now for the enquiry and people left because it's so upsetting to them and yet.

There's something they are aware that they need.

Feed the media beast if you like we dealing with we live in a culture where there is a constant of salt on our tension our phones now TV's iPads whatever and and that these longer coming issues that are not solved the you have to find a way to come and keep people understanding that this is still going on with you.

Tell you something about Windrush for example.

I don't think it's an accident coming back to my last point one of my previous points that it's harder to keep these things in the National in the media attention when they are least likely to happen to the people who are in the media.

If I think if we had more working class people in the media, I think.

Grab that would have been different but before and after I've seen you compare the coverage of the story with the coverage Windrush some Short People listening and also thinking of the coverage of the Post Office and story as well use the phrase saying the stories prick the national Conference for a few weeks, but can you say as each of these stories play out in the media that there is a long-term consequences in terms of how the media approaches these type of story is it shifting sometimes it is sometimes.

It is if we think back to the Macpherson report Stephen I think that really had an impact and I think it's slightly depends on how these moments have a media respond and have a politicians respondents and so on that people can often so that we can have you know we keep losing her Innocence I think they're very careless when they're Innocence we get our Innocence back in my lose it again and then we'll leave it again and again and again so that's

Would hope that generally speaking that that really happens that more permanent shift happens when people fight for it.

Not just because the media decided so yeah this different story is nowhere near over because we're not even close to getting any prosecutions if indeed they going to come along at also Gary young.

Thank you so much for coming and thank you Kate lamble forecast in documentary on BBC sounds also Sophie Barnes formula inside housing and of course to the former grand president of death run into US Aaliyah and there's a ongoing coverage of the publication of this report on the BBC News website regularly to this program.

Would have noticed that over the last few weeks.

It's either one or the other of us both here today and planning on being so for the coming weeks of course are good.

Have you back Katie and they've been catching up on editions of the media show one of them was up in Edinburgh for the TV

When we were there and never to be a lot of people want to talk about the BBC and Public Service Broadcasting and never to be with that subject comes up the licence fee in particular starts feeding its way into the conversation people listening might take my hole on that licence fee arrangements.

Got a long way to run and indeed it does you can count that in years but actually the negotiations are getting very very close does feel at the moment like some manoeuvring is well underway intervention if you like in the times yesterday report of Alex father who was in the new director of the BBC World Service Jonathan Munro has said the BBC is at the pinch point as he put of critical negotiate the Foreign Office to secure more money before the labour budget in October now people will remember all my remembered earlier this year the director-general Tim Davie made a speech in which he signals.

The when the BBC is making millions of pounds 101 in the power cuts as it is it can't continue to pay for the world service centre the argument is it's not appropriate for licence repairs in the UK to put in other parts of the world that was in power so this intervention from John from my road does feel like more of the same kind of reminder to the Labour government of the BBC's position has been interesting the Lisa Nandy the new culture secretary has really made no secret of her desire to let it be known that she supportive of the BBC supportive of Public Service Broadcasting we saw a visit CBBC and has there been very statements in which is very clearly signalled that but the question the people at the top of the BBC I'm sure wondering is does that messaging actually translate into into something different when it to the actual actual deal.

That's got to be done absolutely the devil is in the detail and we don't know that yet.

They have of course been other things swirling and you will know more about it the more I haven't been at Edinburgh

My day has been muted and not the first time.

I think of a merger between Channel 4 and the BBC yeah.

I'm this is this is an idea that occasionally does raises hand he may have seen listening in the Guardian Guardians Jim Waterson carried a story coating to TV industry sources saying the BBC disgusting merger is part of the next round of licence fee negotiations and merger with channel to BBC spokesperson.

Told you wasn't there are no ongoing discussions regarding the acquisition of Channel 4 and nor are we developing a proposal to do so the government also denied that it's considering the idea, but I think it's worth as stepping back and look at the context here which is that we know there's a pressure on Channel 4 funding model that is primarily coming because of shifts in the ad industry the big question is can sizing on streaming makeup for falls in advertising on regular broadcasting.

It's far from clear.

Whether it completely well and then for the BBC side as it would acknowledge their.

Major changes and how we all consume media and that's creating pressures and opportunities in terms of the BBC's relationship with licence fee pairs.

It is though certainly not suggesting that the way that would be any form of murder murder.

It's been very clear on that but we do have the public service broadcasters cooperating on TV services like three leave that was advertised earlier in the year and we're going to see a further cooperation follows in terms of that.

I guess that's top of the BBC's list of things to think about when it's got quite a long list things to think about that.

Yes, it does and some more pressing that in the short-term.

I think I've got a busy autumn, because it's quite a lot coming up and BBC turns over the next few weeks, so we've got the Redwoods being sentence that's on Monday week 16th of September we also expected the report into what happened on Strictly Come Dancing between the actor Amanda Abbington

Dancer Giovanni Peniche she's obviously made several accusations against him which he has denied.

I understand that one's coming soon to BBC an internal internal fixation absolutely and I think that will be coming soon.

I do spend a lot of time in this job focusing on the BBC and of course we're still awaiting along the labour report on the former BBC DJ he's also accused of misconduct.

He denies most interested and right now is not BBC story it is something I've been reading about reports have been reading temps in Nevada to try and get the murder court case televised this is something we covered on the media.

I can't remember whether you were away then rolls, but it's basically there's an attempt by Rupert Murdoch to get the terms of the trust of a set up many years ago.

They give his for older children equal say in the future of his Media Empire after his death he now wants to change that to ensure that lachlan.

Who's his elders most politically aligned son gets Falcon

And the other three are fighting it goes to court next week.

We know that for sure it was due to be entirely secret the New York Times original got the story and now I'm wondering are we actually going to get this televised I was so probably who's pushing for it presumably any number of people I imagine on that front.

It was according to park their website and he's arguing the trial should be made public he's been successful in that regard previously in Nevada but he's never going up against the murders before so let's alright.

We might be next week now next on the media.

Show we're going to talk about Korean TV not the first time we talked about this, but there's a couple of good reasons to come back to it because last week BBC Studios struck a deal with a Korean content agency.

This could lead to more so called k content coming our way and all of this is building on a series of enormous international successes for the Korean TV

Squid game on Netflix being one this is another so this is the Korean version of the masked singer and a contestant from one of the first episodes.

That's before it came across to the UK actually been sold in over 50 countries now another Korean format is I can see your voice in this one contestants have to tell the difference between good singers and bad singers without who sings you have to have a look at people and see if you can guess if there are any good at singing you're not a huge amount of investment heading South Korea's way at last year Netflix place to spend 2.5 billion in x 4 years Disney classes planning to create more Korean Originals for 2024 and 2025 and 1 senior executive as described it as gold rush for Korean content.

A number of people help us with this story, let's hear from someone in Korea who's developing hit formats and then selling them internationally this is in soon Kim head of content production and distribution company based in say something special I spoke to her a little bit earlier because of the time difference and she's been explain to me why Korean TV producers are so good at developing international format can be extremely competitive Society we've always been surrounded by B countries historically so we had to serve.

I probably are wrapped it can omicron cause a cheap within a half-century.

Keep up industry is well known for its competitive environment which is not always of Brightside absolutely not easy to provide the new things all the time so that's another thing.

Really good at hybridizing dramas the funny thing is when the messenger and I can see your voice came out in 2015 is nobody actually thought that that that that is an actual format because it was so different from traditional franchise for my god the voice so people said why should we see a music game show mixed with the music competition so it should be either a competition but now they call it a music guessing game show was created a genre as well as creating Sevenfold I was interested.

Just now you said that Korean audiences are very hard to please their very demanding tell us more about that.

Why what is it that they want all seasons of this show the celebrities even even go TV series we don't leave early to the returning Seasons let's say there is a 130 channel.

They have to commission 40 40 different on TV series people want to always want to see new thing as a new soul new faces new ideas rather than seeing an old in watch24 maths, so it sounds like an unforgiving audience, but it's evidently having creative effect I'm interested though in terms of the the format themselves originally if we go back a few years these were formats that were being created for the South Korean market, which then became international hits but now that it's been proven that Korean TV producers can make international hit is it more and more the case that when you're making programs actually you're thinking about the international market from the very beginning so we don't dance with international partners, so that the format could be creating not only.

Korean audience but for the international audience from the very beginning so we want to miss the DNA of the foetus with the DNA of the international market a few years ago.

We created a show called the beatbox, which was co-developed by the original creator of I can see your voice with Freeman and it's also fun studio music game show where everyday items becomes music instruments two teams of celebrity compete against each other in a various music related schemes to obtain the sound of do the items using everyday items from maybe the kitchen or from other parts of our home to create music that we would know exactly exactly.

That's called beatbox.

There's another format with box in the title battle in the box.

There's some people listening may have they have seen because it was on UK TV and this is quite an unusual format to ya on we have a lot of boxes in the Iconic box / the movie wall for 20 hours and compete against each other through and numerous games and challenges to gain more spaces in the box.

It was remarkably remaindered into a UK version by into still on in the UK TV I would love to be in all the stations where you're imagining these ideas and thinking about which ones you want to make him which ones you don't as you look at the industry you work in can you see it being changed a great deal by the amount of interest from abroad.

Well.

I started out this career as a as a researcher of a international TV format Industry at that time.

Career was not even on the nep for any research papers, but now is totally change it is having some portion in the street, and I'm really proud of it and I was I wasn't even expecting that I would see this coming with in my lifetime and I would like to extend this phenomenon and as long as possible and by collaborating with international partners as well soon came from the production company something special.

I love you.

Oh dear.

That's what kind of format can we come up with I know we'll get some celebrities to recreate pop.

It's with everyday items you're going to head home now and start doing you never know but it's not the first will have the idea and then also went.

Yes when I'm going to make that we go we going to do Mount now there and hear a little about the landscape of Korean TV and the impact of international investment because

Head of entertainment coverage for Bloomberg and Lucas give us a sense first hello of how popular Korean TV is around the world is one of the most popular genres or I should say languages outside of English you know filming television from the United States from the UK is still the most popular is the most most of the biggest services from Netflix to Disney Plus on down or American services, but when you look at the different market contributing the most popular shows up there with Spain it up there with UK it's up there with Brazil it's up there with Columbia I'm on the of the biggest and has produced arguably the biggest hits for any country outside of the US and UK and OK how much then have international streamers and broadcasters invested in that country then as a result of spotting their son realising that it's incredible popular.

Well depends on the company so I take in aggregate global media companies spend billions of dollars on Korean Film and Television especially television Netflix is 4K the biggest supporter and identified career is very important to expansion across Asia early on initially licencing a lot of existing shows and then subsequently also testing in original programme like squid game and what does that mean? What does it meant for the domestic market in South Korea to suddenly have all this is billions of dollars invested.

It was a godsend.

You know you had company and Netflix coming and spending far more and on individual projects that have been done previously that with average budget for a scripted show when France have high 6 fig 7 fig 2.

Online Diaries episode if you were lucky enough to be a star on that show a crater at one of those you were both getting paid more money and able to tell stories that were generally common on the Korean broadcasters overtime there's been some questions as to whether this has been all positive both because of Netflix's impact on some of the local broadcaster who have struggled to retain some of the reviewers and there's a feeling that while some people have made a lot of money from the shows that the average work or maybe hasn't been paid as much as I would have liked him back.

Thank you so much.

I'm going now going to focus in on Korean drama in particular, which has as we've been hearing been finding international success Regina came as a freelance entertainment journalist and Forbes contributor Regina just how popular is Korean drama becoming how many big hits can you point as to what I mean as Lucas mentioned it?

Popular for a while now, it's just that I think a lot of mainstream audiences in the west had a really don't pay attention that much but like rain dramas have been popular in many parts of the world like easier Africa and Latin America since the 2000s really but I mean in recent years and obviously with the rise of Netflix and if you look at like Netflix has a weekly global chart of like the 10 9 English language shows it's very common to find like at least three or four i k dramas on that chart.

I don't like an attention of total and so mean and more recently we creature that was last year the second season of creature is coming out.

Obviously have like squid game we also have a car site the grey but like I'll find them Netflix and also seem a lovely runner which is actually on this platform called Vicky I thought all on Netflix in some markets so

We have marry my husband which is on Amazon Prime video which is the number 10 k dramas on Amazon Prime video for like the number one kdrama, but then it what's the weather top 10 on Amazon for like 6 months, so there's somebody has that we can appoint to let me just jump in there lots of his I'm curious.

Though is the type of this being made in South Korea changing as it finds a bigger and bigger international audience well.

I would say again like we are staying warm orchidometer have more graphic content but I would say it is generally due to this diversification of genre is that we've been staying with the rise of streaming because I'm previously numbers kdramas were showing like words like made by like local broadcasters and cable TV channels and in Korea there are certain you know general.

Around what can and cannot be shown on Korean TV but with international streaming platforms like you know Netflix or Disney pass there really are no I like a local restrictions on the content that can or cannot be shown and so that has led to a more dramas.

That are like for example like what we saw with all of us are dead Kingdom examples of Kidderminster Peter zombies.

We obviously have a service like squid game a bloody like a day which is on paramount plus.

It's also one of the most sold any also have like a superhero shows now for example Disney plus and moving which had like people with superpowers.

Would you just you just never start and came on this before you're really seeing a wider variety of k-dramas on in terms of generating streaming how interesting thank you very much indeed for taking us through that we really appreciated that Regina King is a freelance and time.

Send this to a reader on the thoughts website now ukraine's offensive in Russia kursk region surprise many when it becomes on the 6th of August it was a move with the objectives, but also one was created opportunities to shift the narrative around the wall.

There's opportunities within Park be shaped by the media cover is the offensive received Catherine Philp is world of the time.

She's been reporting from war zones for decades and recently should company Ukrainian soldiers in curse Catherine welcome to the media show just explain first how that came about.

Shower so I was coming into Ukraine for I've been coming on and off since before the Invasion and this was a long schedule it came at a time when Ukrainian forces had cross the border into Russia so obviously my immediate question was can can we go can we get there a setting out with ukrainians was not the hard bit actually it was convincing my attitude than you know layers of management back at the times that this was a safety to do what we could mitigate the risks involved in it because they weren't just about the danger.

There was also the legal risks about the legal consequences of illegally Crossing into Russia which has had the Russian government have received the trip but you obviously persuaded them because you went just explain then who you did speak to him and what the terms were.

And what do you do for Christmas what he would changing names to protect Russians because getting people presumably and Russia to speak candidly to Western journalists must be very hard.

We have you lived in a very quiet corner of Russia and probably had never happened to do with a journalist a Russian journalist never mind a foreign one.

I gave them their choices first names only and you know I also made sure to speak to them out of the air sort of Ukrainian soldiers as much as possible just because you know obviously people may change what they say if the if someone's listening to them.

Not just what they might say because of any fears about having Russian authorities would react but I mean I I heard every different you know a shade of you from them from those who were horrified by the War in Ukraine to those who never given it a second thought and didn't care and even in one case the woman who was very reluctant to accept that Russia had.

Ukraine and had taken aggressive action there is something that sounded very fascinating which was that Ukraine civilian military liaison officers was showing films to local people about the Invasion and I wondered what that was to the films that you as you were there.

I mean that was extraordinary and one of the most extraordinary things to what there was a small audience of older people who were watching it.

I spoke to one of them afterwards side and Nikolai who you know I think I've been horrified by what you saw better.

This was new for everyone.

They just haven't seen those kind of images of places like boots on the atrocities that we're familiar with one guy she told me that he don't know he only knew that there was fighting going on in the bath the most resistant person to this was a village near who kept in the movie to say to the soldier well, you know this is happened in Russia and you know people have been shell there and then this image footage.

Stop being distant tired and boots here and I said to her.

Do you have those in Russia and she conceived? They did not write covering doesn't thank you very much indeed for the police day weather's Francis cars with us in the studio is Russia specialist at BBC monitoring a regular contributor to the media showing Francis I'm sure what Catherine has been describing doesn't match what people watching Russian media are seeing and hearing no quite far from of course well on the Russian state Media which is of course very tightly controlled by the Kremlin therefore efforts to downplay the scale of what's happened and so we've seen them really not really going into detail in terms of having any reporters on the ground.

They're showing up footage from the defence ministry of Ukrainian tanks and armoured vehicles being destroyed in using these kind of boilerplate statements about Russian forces repelling.

These forces and pooped himself is downplaying it.

He's using phrases such as circumstances or situation to describe the events there rather than actually referring to it as an invasion of inclusion that said the Russian state Media never miss an opportunity to reinforce their pre-existing narratives around the war and around Ukraine and I've seen them trying to use it to galvanise support.

They're talking about the whole Nation coming together to support those who have been affected and supply and humanitarian aid and offering homes and accommodation.

I'm interested.

We are talking about it because presumably another option would be to ignore it.

They are talking about it, but it has definitely falling off the agenda since it began the month ago now of course.

They are talking much more about the increasing pace of the Russian offensive in Eastern Ukraine because they like to talk about their successes rather than their failures I think.

My leave mentioned at all is that with certain stories like this? They are simply too big to ignore and the Kremlin would be embarrassed if it were to simply putting nothing is happening.

I was going to ask about that to what degree does detail of what's happening start appearing on social media whether the authorities like it or not or they able to control that too.

I don't know whether it's connected directly but the cremonese apparently taking more and more messages to gain control over social media.

We've seen YouTube on desktop devices in Russia being slow down certain providers are actually trying to counteract that by speeding up at themselves for which they received warning from the state media media sensor and but they have been videos on social media of locals complaining they have received the necessary level of support from the authorities which of course goes against the narrative that we seeing from Putin himself.

You're still with the scaffold up from the times.

We seen reports of Russia is putting foreign journalists reporting from under criminal investigation that includes CNN chief international security correspondent just in the last minute that we have what what do you know about that yes, what to do the same to everyone who crosses so I can only assume that I'm included they have already banned me from for life.

I think one of the main issues that we will certainly was concerned about was that Russia is known for weaponizing Interpol red notice and switches have like an international arrest warrant.

So that would make my life very complicated make sense and something that we will all just keep watching an ex and others that is understandable.

Why your boss's were to send you there all worried about your safety obviously and the circumstances, but thank you so much.

Take care from felt from the times and also to Francis car from BBC monitoring today.

Thank you.

It's not always the case but certainly today at a number of our discussions have been related to major stories in the news of course you can find further background on all of those stories on the BBC News website that is for today.

Do you remember you can listen back to every edition of the media show on BBC sounds but from us both back together after quite a few weeks and each other we're back together, but not for now and not for so long now.

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