Read this: Telegram founder arrested

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BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 for subjects for this week the Editors of the USA terrible site the Onion will join us from Chicago on why it's going back to publishing a printer Edition and house at I fits into this year's US election in the joiners.

He shifted from times Radio 2 BBC 5 live he still very much talking about politics and he'll help us assess how the new government is approaching the media.

We're going to look in detail at the messaging app.

I'm off for its founder was arrested in France and also there's a new Chinese computer game which is breaking records and revealing details of how the gaming industry as a whole is evolving so I'm not to get into and as you may have noticed on my own this week.

He is going to be back next week with us, so let's start with telegram and messaging app setup by Russian man called Parbold

He still the CEO and he was arrested an airport near Paris on Monday now.

There are a number of important dimensions of the story and how it connects to Global media and I'm going to get some working through all of these first of all from Mike Isaac tech correspondent for the New York Times with this from San Francisco Mike thank you very much for joining us on the media show let's start at the very beginning here with this arrest for the stories that we didn't quite know a lot from the very beginning we understood that was detained and it was pretty clandestine in the beginning then later be French prosecutors a few different reasons according to it's a brief statement.

It was facilitating a child human trafficking drug trafficking reference to encryption issues.

So it was kind of a laundry list of issues, but I think that currently were waiting to hear if there's going to be formal charges even today on that a number of media are reporting further developments his CNN reporting a pair of saying the telegram founder was released from police custody in France on Wednesday and transferred to court for questioning ahead of hospital in deichmann, prosecutors told CNN days after his dramatic arrest at a Paris airport, so we await further details on that but more broadly Mike will you surprised that this happened France this is one of the best aspects of those cases.

It's a big deal in any sort of country at this point Under the Sea of a major tech company especially one used by the most annoying people that telegram is I think.

It's important here is that was made not under EU laws that specific branch surgery addiction French magistrates are considering 12 charger morning if they want so there was a very important.

I also think other text years are looking at bad and what that means for travel across different different case because of her uncooperative has been with different countries over the years, but it's it's something and in terms of the details of what your French authorities are doing as you say we await further details but more broadly we can say I think with confidence that this connects to telegrams approach to to moderation to content moderation which is a an issue that has come up repeatedly between regulators and messaging apps or social media platforms.

I think the you know it's funny because all this company prefers to do a different level of content moderation telegram.

Keep saying if I don't think that's true at all if you look at Facebook WhatsApp Instagram all on bi-metal they pay billions of dollars annually to hire a force of contractors third-party contractors to say hello constant you can certainly judge them.

How they do that well.

They do that contrast with telegram doesn't really well if it all with law enforcement and does not have just a bunch of money.

Spent on two small team there and I think that's major concerns related to that my BBC News colleague.

Joe tidy has been reported in the last few hours that telegram refuse.

International programs aimed at detecting and removing child abuse material online and those of you listening you can find that for report on the BBC News website I should also read you a statement from following giraffes arrest in which it says it abides by EU laws, and it's EU has nothing to hide and travels frequently in Europe it goes on it is absurd to claim that the platform owner is responsible for the abuse of that platform and that assertion Mike as I said a little earlier cuts into a broader debate when it comes to find platforms and the degree of responsibility they carry for the content which can be found on them anything bad something that I mean this is something in the United States do that sort of intentional that there's a letter here section 230 which Shields accountability of the platforms as a whole from the speech that's written on.

Even when batteries challenge frequently by different members of Congress makers and so far it's that doesn't exist in the same way across every country now and it's certainly something investigation in the EU as well as friends, but this is a real I would say it existential issues platforms and their owners because you know question what sort of stuff could be published on these platforms are all right now.

Is this going to be a real case for us going forward if not just in France still in other countries might stay with this if you can make is the Tech correspondent for the New York Times is weather San Francisco let's get further help understanding not just this story, but the app and the man in the middle of it c.

Rosenberg is the BBC News Russia editor and he's with us on the Mead

We always appreciate you coming on let's go right back to the beginning of telegram.

Tell us about how it came to be in what giraffes ambitions were for it in those early days will power Dora had created something called contact you before that which was like Russia's version of Facebook his version of Facebook that was his first creation which follow that was supposed to be a you know a secure and reliable messenger messaging app that will allow you lots of people large groups of people to communicate underpinning all of this.

I think was possible doves sort of anti authority streak the fact that he was firstly free speech and this was supposed to be a platform where government Snoop couldn't interfere critics a decade later say that to 3 in other words are not enough moderation moderation is not strict enough and the telegram has been.

I would say for criminal activity in those early days.

How did the authorities view both giraffe and the messaging app that he created I think this is a question actually the relationship between Pavel death and the Russian authorities because 4 years Mr doner went out of his way to distance himself from the Kremlin at the story goes that a decade or so Garry came under pressure from the Russian authorities over that version of Facebook contacts.

It was he created the authorities wanted information about wanted him to shut down the pages of opposition politicians.

He refused was forced to sell his business.

He left Russia decamp to Dubai then develop telegram.

Russia try to block in 2018 then unblocked in 2020.

I said I publicly refused to co-operate with the Russian authorities.

Are some people who say that is a myth and legend but in reality he maintain ties on some level with the Russian authorities and then he regularly to and from Russia and if we go back to 2021 telegram together with Apple and Google actually blocked software that have been champion by the late opposition leader Alexei navalny allowed Russian voters to vote strategically against Road Crumlin parties that have been a request from the Russian authorities and Steve you would go outside of your office now and I'm going to speak to people in the street.

How many of them might have telegram, how widely used it if I did the equivalent of that walking out of the studios here in London I'm sure the vast majority of people have stopped would probably be using WhatsApp is it the same with telegram in in Russia I mean lots of people use.

Because you know it's difficult to get information alternative sources of information on the television there such a high level of state control on TV in the newspapers here.

So lot of people go into telegram to get that alternative information.

So I think the reaction from the public has been quite negative people don't like the idea or governments are interfering into what they say is a platform for free speech reaction from Russian officials.

There has been really interesting.

It's been happening and puffing eye people in power hear the Russian foreign ministry is accused France of trampling on international norms regarding human rights the Russian president Ombudsman human rights everyone who strives for free speech protest against this before saying that I wonder if she giving any thoughts to the state of free speech in her own country.

Instagrams bad I access to to the signal Messenger app that was banned earlier this month access the YouTubers now severely restricted and as I say the media is heavily controlled but we be also hearing from from another program invoices using a detention to sort of state of the Russian public why you know we told you there's no to the west luckiest proof and we told you that the west hates Russia and hates Russians and he has proof in other words using this what sort of hype and PR and to strengthen the narrative perceive their maybe something further for the Russian authorities to respond to in the coming hours.

I was mental this story was developing.

Let me read all of you listening some reuters the we have here which has telegram boss purple giraffe has been transferred to an investigative judge of his four-day French police interrogation ended judicial source said on Wednesday and there's further.

There is Coming more recently which reads a decision is due by 1800 GMT today Wednesday on whether to launch a formal investigation, so we are not so far away from that time will keep an eye on the course as and when more details emerge bring back in Mike Isaac from the New York Times because Mike Stevens listing a whole range of different digital services with people in Russia and elsewhere will people listening.

You haven't used telegram and that may well be at the majority.

Just describe how it compares with other messaging apps such as WhatsApp or iMessage so yeah, I've been telegram telegram launched in 2013.

I believe I'm really there's not much difference at least aesthetically from WhatsApp so you can use it for a one-to-one messaging you can use it for a group chats.

It's very very similar just in terms of functionality.

I think the real key distinction that people should.

Obscure but is the level of encryption you can get across some of these apps.

What's happen signal or would come in the end encrypted meaning only be used in the conversation can see what's happening and outsiders you know we're not able to do that by default in the in the cricket in the same way the messages that people same can be stored on the company's servers which means a lot of things in our governments can intervene and get those messages or if there's a data breach messages that have become open so often telegrams positioned as a security in the same breath as what's happened signal but it's not really true and Steve was describing its popularity in Russia but can you put it in a global context for us? How big is it compared with some of the major messaging apps and social Media apps that with familiar of familiar?

On the world stage so WhatsApp is still going away the largest.

I want to say global messaging app.

It's about it over 2 billion people using it regularly now official numbers signal is the smallest release actual using numbers in telegram at last cannot believe is around 900 million which is nothing to sneeze at you know that a lot of people use it and I think the you know as soon was saying you know it's obviously popular in Russia but I think as it's use has Brian you know different countries and even moved to the west In Bloom during the cryptocurrency Burns a lot of people who are in use telegram to conjugate in and otherwise just a different type of group messaging app that you might not be able to find people's easily on WhatsApp especially for.

Discussion and sharing and given the fact that the levels of encryption perhaps are always to the same level as signal another messaging app or WhatsApp Dave Rosenberg BBC News Russia relative to bring you back in here.

Isn't it correct that telegram is widely used in the Ukraine conflict by both sides.

Yeah, it is.

It is indeed interesting here as Russia is concerned.

It's something I've picked up in in the state Media the report it particularly in the newspapers the Russian newspapers the last few days there seems to be genuine concern in Russia about the implications for this detention for Russia's national security in the argument goes like this Russian government officials use telegram the Russian military uses telegram for communication purposes including in the so-called special military operation Russia's war in Ukraine so what happens if

Intelligence agencies get hold of the encryption keys and that the newspapers here state-controlled.

I've been writing open about this all one newspaper the other day.

I asked this question.

How is ammi? Go to today one of the newspapers said will do a handover the passcode and another headlines from today's Russian press Russian intelligence agencies are counting on silence so making it very clear there in in the articles that this is a concern in Moscow those concerns in Moscow might finally I wonder if there are concerns in Silicon Valley for very different reasons simply because this is a single European country arresting the head of a major platform.

We've got a notice one tech writer Chris stokel-walker is being on the show previously writing in the Guardian saying arresting telegram purple giraffe could be a Smart Move text boxes care more about themselves than you either to say the text Boss has made with that but it undoubtedly send.

No, I fully agree.

I think we can look back to a case.

Where is a bird was charged by the ftc or privacy violations in the top concern of everyone in Facebook was the matter with there to do in the prize Like a Bird in his personal charges coming up.

I think that those conversations happening right now.

I know for a fact that every sort of major tech company as this on the radar.

No talking their ceo's about what they need to do in terms of travel what they need to do in terms of if they need to stand up and you know help in back room ways because this does make a nervous and I think it must you I'm asking particular who also has very relaxed current immigration policies on Twitter now.

Xx is something someone.

Watching a closely to what degree then Mike is there a divide between the European approach to regulating these platforms and the American approach you earlier to the European digital services act that's an EU legislation.

We should have a size that what's happening with this rest comes under French domestic law but nonetheless both are different examples of regulators in Europe being perhaps more muscular the digital platform done sometimes.

We've seen in Washington Valley with some of the biggest mergers and acquisitions of the past 20-years basically Facebook now called meta has been able to grow enormously large l a Google bike YouTube and a bunch of difference of ad networks to make itself and only really in the past.

I would say 4 years under different.

Dogs Out by the Department of Justice to what they're going to go after work kiss it better building now you see them going after from Google to Murcia to Apple to basically every major tech company to say your size are your behaviour is not something that were going to tolerate to the same as our predecessors.

You know you is absolutely you know where my mum and stepdad off even more but I think it is having a different sort of version of this in recent years and very curious especially after door elections if that continues Mike thank you very much indeed.

Take it through the story.

Thank you very much Steve Rosenberg as well.

That's my guys at tech correspondent for the New York Times with us from San Francisco and we were joined by the BBC News Russia editor Steve Rosenberg this story is evolving as we talked.

Now have a statement from the palace prosecutors office via the AP news agency, which reads in investigating judges ended Potter Order of police custody and we'll have been brought to court for a first appearance possible indictments.

Where is in line with other reports and we were quoting earlier in the program reported saying a decision is due by 1800 GMT today, so that's a matter of hours and of course as and when those developments come in your hear them on Radio 4 and on BBC News ok next on the media show let's say hello to Matt Chorley who's with the timer.

Have you with us.

You got a new Politics show starting on 5 Live very soon of course people know you from x radio and also writing for the times.

We going to talk about politics at the moment, but I'm not use telegram on my phone that I waste my time looking at and we seen some reporting in France that some French politicians.

Do you use?

Telegram to message each other and to message Janice you aware of people in Westminster moving away from WhatsApp in anyway against one of them as we've had the last couple of years dark.

Talk of Secrets shadow in groups and I'm not aware of it is I think in different countries.

They just need to settle the UK particularly the Westminster Village has been much Settle on WhatsApp when using what would like to have you on the media show as mentioning.

You've moved from times radio to a new show with what's on 5 Live very soon going to tell us when it's coming live from Westminster where I tried to explain what is going on way that if you think 16 might not be for you.

I will try to make you interested and I'm interested because that's not a million miles away from your mission when you're on times radio, but when you become.

BBC presenter with all the impartiality rules that come with being at the BBC just change your approach to doing that is it is a shift, but I've done my impartiality training and it turns out I didn't have any politics in the first place.

I think it comes to the door and as a journalist you know you'll have to have contact with everyone the whole time.

I've never said I would vote never told anyone else.

I might have played music 2 soundtrack what's going on in politics carry on on Monday is that what you meant in the lobby and we're going to talk about that and how the new government the new Labour government is interact with the lobby.

Don't understand that you're staying with us joining you're selling as a political reporter for the I know thank you very much for coming on.

I wonder what your first impressions are of the Labour Media operation.

So far it's been quite a mixed you I think you know they had a bit of a tricky start timing wise because they had to go straight into summary fast as they do actually need some time off really do much so therefore they couldn't really like you know actually had anything to announce and leeks have been a few it doesn't seem to have that tightness that they're gonna need early days.

They going to have to learn but they have the loan quick because I think it's going to be quite a difficult autumn with the budget and I'll be there and is it still very much about the grid as we sometimes hear it being described where whoever is in power has a big plan for the issues.

They want to play out today of a week.

Yeah, and they try and time it well.

You know they try and think ahead to go with and get that out on a quiet day.

We're going to get that out on a busy day, so no one noticed.

They haven't really been much of a grid from the new government because it's recess there's no one around a lot of ministers have been on holiday and also because there's not much to say you know the only managed to get up on the table before they went away and got the manifesto said they want to say it's at the moment.

It's just a small things but you know when we're back next week Parliament boxes going to be a lot to talk about that the big test but how they handle them when they actually have something to tell people turn of the grid what a prospect coming coming down the track next week mate.

What's your early impressions? I'm sure you've been speaking to labour ahead of the launch of your new show.

What's your how do you compare and contrast your interactions with the previous? Yeah? It's interesting that goes from government.

I forgot opposition to government has to make an adjustment.

I'll speak to someone at this week.

You said you know we use the bike for a touch you know you.

How can we get some people take some toast now and like a bit less attention on something so difficult policy areas that I'm trying to manage that attention and focus it in I do think you're having the election going into government and all of that very if I provide tension and then having this weird that someone has been difficult.

They are looking forward to getting back to the Rhythm having MPs in Westminster so they can possibly tell them to shut up and not go on the media and criticise government policy and they've been told what is going on so I think there's a big adjustment going on there and they are currently the only still in town the opposition don't have a major operation cos I've got a leadership Contest going on and so old the Media phone has been on and what the government is doing and I think they're still adjusting to having that that intense focus on them.

I'm just looking at the front page of the BBC News website as we took the headliners starmer.

Ambitious reset with Europe will not mean reversing brexit and I guess the fact that point is having to be made strongly and there is a sign that the Labour Party has some important messages that wants to get out to certain sections of the median certain sections of the country when they are going to Berlin really really trying and you know one of the big things about the election was them talking about Europe and how that relationship might work.

It wasn't the headline of the election but undercurrent of these very different from the previous government how they approached Europe so I think it's time.

I want to show that he is a player on the world stage because that's the one area we think Motors miocene from Hendon can he deal with these big international issues, so yeah, when they get a big moment like this where he gets to go and shake hands of world leaders.

Are going to want to push that and there's a lovely back out there at the moment following around getting the line and I'm sure they'll be able to get some good ones that will know that come out of the reporting in the next few hours in most papers to ask about one issue.

I was curious to note and then the last 24-hours also yesterday Tuesday our colleagues at the world at One Radio 4 offered by labour the labour together which is a think tank in the Head of Labour together is Jonathan Ashworth and this was someone who was offered on behalf of the government and not a minister at someone from a think tank behalf of the government is that unusual for a government to put someone up into the media like that in itself as well whether it was part of the fact that everyone else is on holiday.

You know and we have fun with booking for the show next week.

Just covering who's on holiday and who isn't is basically.

Small towards the end of the last conservative government when Cabinet ministers were nothing down keep their heads down to hang on for the summer.

We found the government for putting up backbenchers, which was a bit unusual.

I think for a brand new government to put up somebody would be the cabinet had enough.

This is not a random person that he was due to be the cabinet.

He lost his seat is now running.

I think everyone thinks I come back at some point, but it is still a little bit of for him to be the government voice on a media outlet that it is a bit of a mention that one other thing I want to ask about how it was your scoop on the front page of Mondays I have had a cabinet split over the issue of the winter fuel allowance cut I needed to say not expecting you to reveal your sources live on Radio 4, but I'm sure a few people raise their eyebrows that a story like that would.

Way into the paper because that means someone in a reason be senior position is is talking very early on in the government definitely I've noticed there a lot of a senior figures that are still quite chatty with the journalist who they were conversation before you know that was saying that desperate for attention.

Yeah, they really wanted to get the issue about outlet and now able to talk to them because the other ones actually I'm pulling a l I think that discipline and that sort of clothes that they haven't quite got that yet, because it has been surprisingly easy to your access to a lot of these things that there's already been and not just we had conversations with cabinet ministers at the story says other papers have also had that have talked about cabinet minister saying XYZ and Number 10 official so it seems like even.

989 weeks and they haven't quite got down but that kind of Separation preparation area and a lot of the Secretary of State unknown facts about the prime minister only a few from before have come back.

So they are going to need a bit of practice.

I think you not talking to me and said they can keep making me happy with you should put a note in the media show diary for 2 or 3 months time and get the two of you back on and see if the the degree of chatting us is your phrase has changed as the autumn plays out with all the politics that will be within and very good.

Thank you very much indeed for coming on that selling the political reporter for the eye now.

Tell you on next guess.

I think you're going to be very interested in because he is the editor of The onion the satirical website which I'm sure you you know a lot of people listening will know and before we bring him in I wanted to ask you about her because you are known as not just being a high-profile political journalist, but someone who often uses humour to talk about politics was that just something you do because you like doing it or because you think it helps with the information.

You're trying to pass on the latter.

I think sometimes the coverage of political journalism can seem quite inward-looking any work work environment where you've got a list of got a new everyone's using the workshop at the talk about spans and mandarins and the lobby and all of them and two people the outside understand what people think politics is boring or a bit dry or a bit hard to get a handle on using human can be a way of doing that and that's you know expand.

It's my life.

I do.

Stand-up tours around the country and I tell jokes about what's going on in politics and actually quite often do people have learnt so much and I think we're supposed to be a TED talk is supposed to be funny, but in the process of making the jokes about the world and happy people learn a bit more about how Westminster words.

You can have your cake and eat it say with this because I'm sure you're going to want to hear from our next year's to his child neck is the editor of The ending with us from Chicago I'm in Abbey consumer of the onions and shallots of you listening are two very good.

Have you on the media? So thanks for your time today? Yeah, I think you've heard me on now for people who haven't ever encountered the Onion just give us a brief history newspaper started in France in 1988 in Madison Wisconsin we moved to the internet in 1996.

I believe we were the first comedy website online.

And yeah, we've we've just cover a lot of big issues through the years since 97, so been through in a ministration.

Yeah, we've just we hit the big stuff.

We moved to New York in 2001 in 9/11 happen.

So that was you know canava bizarre coming out party for us and lead to can a deeper darker set a timer for a while with the Iraq war the Afghanistan war is it possible that given the you've been at the onions for so long to talk about different eras of satire or publication status more broadly in the US in the economy was really good.

It was like very jokey.

We just put him in the crazy situations like collecting Joan Jett records or being injected with a monster.

Create a super president to you know 911 happening and the onions was one of the few American publications that was very critical of the Iraq war and I think the black people look back.

I fell asleep.

We really like an independent voice and you know in some ways when you look back at it.

We were making some sense out of what was going on with the the kind of rush to get revenge.

I'm interested that you say you were against the wall that suggest that you have resistance as a publication on different policies or different politicians this isn't just about seeing an opportunity to be funny.

This is about you as a as a collection of a joke writers and journalists wanting to make a point to yeah.

I think so in humans release drives on empathy you now and it's about the human Element in so we're going to be against.

You know bombing people or police brutality any sort of like censorship.

You know take away people's right.

That's just like what we can't stand for if that's like you're not ideology then to me that kind of bizarre that one side stand for things in one wouldn't get the politics section of your site.

Just before coming into the headline about a Harris's vice presidential nominee Tim while staying connected while strapped in football metaphor for third consecutive day another headline red nation confused as to why Joe Biden is still on TV sometimes so and that's just two of many many headlines that you have for your primary product remains the website is that right? It is and we just get a new website because we were unfortunately owned by private equity for the last 5 years and there were more concerned with putting ads in making a website garbage, but we are expand.

Will return Prince so we have a new membership and it's going to be one of our revenue streams you can pay $5 us a month right now here.

I think it British uses rockstar something anyway.

It's pretty affordable and we feel like it's like first and I think the news print is a great way to consume onions because you're getting the interplay of all the different headlines and jokes you not just seen with social media shows you were concerned about the readers like health to we want to get them off devices for a little bit heaven staring at newsprint for a while.

Is that not risking telling them get away from the place where most of you read the Onion because encouraging them to put away their phones turn off the social Media apps go away from your website that presumably is where most people find your stuff well enough money each month.

We're in good shape.

Be ok and in terms of satire is held more broadly in the US people listening may well have heard of what you're up to but how do you look across us at IMO please we had in this election? I just walked down the hall to you know one thing we do is we have a writing fellowship, so people are they sending packets.

They work for 6-months and the staff writing headlines writing articles and being in the room to brainstorm things and learn the process and in the voice and that's where we prime you like Philippa bench and get people but we also have contributors this onion riders to work for the onions in Madison who still contribute to us still sending headlines, so you know.

Tell us about that process that you just deluded to how do you go about generating your jokes generating your articles and headlines taken through an average day in the Onion Newsroom the riders will have like 22:30 headlines that they read out loud to the group or maybe you're very quickly usually we have two different types of an evergreen medium where they bring a lot of headlines and timely stuff like politics.

That's alright like maybe 9:55, but it's like 2030 headlines will highlight the ones that people that have had in like Anna let me know the meeting which we go through and pick the top headlines that were going to publish, then we brainstormed year's riders go off in the articles will have a secondary after meeting.

We'll talk about it later.

We'll have an editors meeting in according to the riders.

And then then it's pretty much ready for publication and when you're doing that are you trying to have a consistent voice if you are making jokes or write stories about very well known political figures such as Joe Biden Harris or or Donald Trump are you trying to be consistent and how the Onion is projecting these characters stent you know what kind of fuel around with like weather is a character.

You know I think like if you're president.

There's certain elements that come out but we try not to go too heavy and 2 because it's a little like one-dimensional and it doesn't fit every situation like for instance like it.

It's a lot easier when they're kind of dislike Donald was trying to distract from the DNC last week by Eternal Life On video you know he's the person who loves attention.

So that will be kind of

Core idea where joker comes from Joe Biden is like can it does a little everything we had him carried off by it's at one point.

Why are you heading carried off by and before that I think it was to see me a little favour overthinking.

It would be funny if you was like a group of actors in carry them away and do you have a position on who you would like to Windows the only and have a preference whether it's the Democrats or the Republicans in power.

I'll just say we are very Against Fascism so that's that's all you're right.

This is listening to his Matt Chorley very you arrive at the BBC come across from from x radio.

Do you see a difference in how American satirist go about covering their politics and how Santa is in the UK do it the conversation talk about going back to actually that's what we've seen.

Private eye with did we actually didn't Embrace the internet that has remained as a printed think there's something about you know your wants a fortnite.

Copy.

Where was seeing Saturday and social can't make any money for me.

What's on TV now got Have I got news for you, but the the broader getting loads of topical shows disappear in a world of streaming a date.

You know nobody wants to watch really Have I Got News For You from a year ago 2 years ago3 years ago Close programs that are being made anymore, so actually maybe maybe the place for this sort of stuff that people will pay for it in a way that you know it's not going to Survive by years and years on Netflix or Disney plus and if you're doing your making jokes about politics and you're Also of course bumping into the politicians who you're making points about do the jokes to the satire.

Does it have an impact on them in the same way that a serious pretty good? I think so person won't speak to me on come on the sketch writers who you know see the parliamentary gallery and and right there jokes actually the worst thing for most politicians is not being talked back lots of them like the attention.

They like the fact that you watch their speech.

So you picked up something something goes wrong and right bake off my joke pointing out the something wrong catastrophically so I think being ignored.

It's probably the the biggest decision you about people who featured in a Private Eye cartoon or whatever it might be in the first the cartoon gets framed by the person who was the who is the tide out as you decide to go take the

Interprint which is where it started are you aware of Private Eye the satirical magazine in the UK which still sells an enormous amount in print every couple of weeks mentions that long list stores in the us anymore.

I used to be able to find it on a new page through it but you know it's hard to find those things and I surprise you support it by giving subscription and I should add that we are shipping overseas to print edition by euthymia a follow-on question which is on show people are wondering as the only never considered a UK focused Edition not just one not just the American edition which we can get across here, but actually one that's about the UK I think that would be amazing to do I don't know if we have the resources for a quite yet.

I do know that one of our former editor-in-chief.

Show succession which was he was the American on the shop and it was in London I believe so perhaps I can relate at some point and I just asked you before you go back.

Don't you alluded to what sounds like a difficult period when the Onion was owned by private equity or difficult for you at least and you're now launching this print edition are the onions finances.

Ok? I mean is a publication that in peril if this new strategy doesn't work or this is just simply trying to add another string to your bow.

I think you like ultimately we are going pretty good right now part of the reason that the Onion struggled was there is no investment.

There is no investment in video we want to bring back the Onion News Network which was our parody of cable news.

You know now come back stronger and more people watching cable news again in America so that's just another outlet in trying to put jokes out in the more areas have more platforms and

Can it goes against what you know the other company wanted us to just get page views and give people on-site and it's hard to get young people excited about reading you know but also might get a video like all day long jokes in my area sounds like a title for a media strategy the Onion actually just before you go we appreciate you being with us for most of this edition of the media show for people who weren't listening right towards the beginning of what about just reminders when your first coming on 25 5 Live my brand new Show Live and Westminster 2 till 4 Monday to Friday at 5, thank you very much indeed.

That's not actually joining us and as new program is going to be on fire in the 10 minutes or so we've got left here on today's Media show me to talk about gaming for a couple of reasons that bear in mind gaming industry worth billions of pounds.

It's big.

Has been bigger than the film industry in recent years and it's evolving at speed and there are two developments that we wanted to focus on the first concerns a game produced in China that is sold 1/2 million copies within 24-hours of its release it's called black myth wukong.

Good pubs in the water bag because goodness without teeth on issues.

Not it's only 4 minutes introduced in China that sold for 1/2 million coffees in 24-hours after it came out because McDonald of the videogame editor at the Guardian thank you very much indeed coming on and I was after some context these numbers.

How unusual is it for a game to sell that quickly it's pretty big I mean to put that into context another game that sold similarly was animal crossing New Horizons back in the pandemic.

So very very popular game it had like 3 million concurrent players on PC it's I think it's 10 million now and it's only a week.

So it's a very very successful and it's the first such a successful.

To ever come out of China well, that was leading me onto my second question which is this we've answered it really this is very very unusual for a game to have this impact and be produced in China when you think about China's gamesindustry you think about mobile games that has a very very big popular games industry, but most of games made in China are played in China because you wouldn't even allow games consoles PlayStation to be sold in China until relatively recently so there are loads of mobile games that are in billions and billions in a very popular in China really.

Do they make it out of trying to become popular Elsewhere and never has the game like this just like a blockbuster single player game that's ever come out right now in the successful.

So it's really been speaking to some changes that are happening in the in the Chinese gamesindustry you mentioned mobile game that is quite different to Console gaming and then obviously there are versions of games you can play on PC as well for people who don't know the industry well.

How does it break down one of the most popular types of games?

What are the most popular devices that we used to play games somewhere in the original like 3 billion people in the world play games most of those people play on phone.

They play mobile games and those games tend to be free to play or very cheap and they make money by getting you to buy a new hat for your character or get you to pay for new goals or more time things like that.

That's the most profitable area of the games of the street and then gaming is known for his Blockbuster expensive games that are more cinematic and a lot of Western companies make games like there's like Sony PlayStation Studios make games like God of War or The Last of Us which was obviously very TV series last year, so there is a distinction between those two types of getting more people play on mobile but there's more kind of Buzz around console and PC gaming because that's where the the kind of agenda-setting games tend to come creatively the one I spoke to this day.

I wanted to ask you about it, but I'm saying that the co publisher of this game has sent influences a list of topics to avoid while livestreaming the game including.

Propaganda fetishization and other content the instigate negative discourse presumably, it's not normal for games publishers to the issue those kind of instructions.

It is not normal.

No, it's very interesting because the developer gamescience that's for making this game.

They have had an unparalleled level of scrutiny and they had no idea how to deal with it.

So there was some reporting coming out of China from IGN which of the games website saying that the Legend of sexist misogynist comments made by people who work at gamescience.

They did not know how to respond to that.

They just completely refused to comment on media on it.

Sent out this list of demands for people who is streaming the game saying please don't mention covered feminist propaganda or Chinese politics and you do start to wonder what's going on that you mentioned the media approaches the BBC approached the studio games science behind blackmailed for comment but has not received a response just one more question on this though.

What can the game and the people?

Do to stop people talking about that do they have the means to just block certain words? Well? I do think it's the classic finger if you tell people not talk about something.

That's what they're going to talk about and of course that's kind of how the story has gone like the game itself is an incredibly successful was a very good game.

I played a bit of it and it's very impressive especially to look at however this like substory now that you know that they were trying to control the narrative and in control the narrative.

They just made it worse off so I think there is probably a lot for gamescience to learn how to do with the media and how to deal with social media and how to deal with streamers because people who engage with video games tend to be extremely extremely social media literate and a lot of the movie where this controversy I can imagine that was one gaming story wants to talk about another is that the inaugural esports World Cup came to an end at the end of competitors gathered in the whole city of Riyadh Saudi Arabia to compete for a share of a 60 million prize pot and joining Kenzie sports broadcaster, Frankie Ward

People who don't even know the concept of e-sports very well, how this manifests itself, what would be sports World Cup look like in practice, but I'll just explain what is first.

It's basically competitive video game that lends itself to a structured environment, so that could be taking place in a community centre of school could be taking place online could be taking place in an arena that sounds about it won't be 15 G5 completing against each other at the same time.

That's kind of what you looking at when you talk basis, and is it a big queue jab? It's kinda feels quite niche when you look at the way that it plays out really because it is massive and yeah, if you're not interested because it's always almost exclusively online certain countries.

Where is sports is more of a national talking point like for example in Denmark you would actually see any local council.

A mainstream sports channel in the UK for example be very rare to see on on normal television listening will be excited at the Paralympics I'm just getting underway will have what Olympics two major major sporting events where we know the type of media content were offered when it comes to an esports World Cup what form does the media content take? What are the producers give us all to consume? That is quite interesting these what's in the sense that not only are the tournament organisers usually putting on the event itself, but also doing the broadcast as well so for example if women see you've got the All England Lawn Tennis Association and the broadcast said there's a big job the typically what you would see is actually something that does resemble traditional sports broadcaster have still have commentator talking through the action but also what we see more recently is your have his big influences his big streamers will also take what we might call.

Of the the broadcast I guess what is the Wimbledon and doing their own content over the top of that as well appealing to Hollywood it's obvious their fans briefing on the general approach to the media and the audience is trying to reach but this world cup has been controversial because it was in Saudi Arabia is as mentioning.

It was bankrolled by the Saudi authorities tell us the sport is reacted van, so it's been really interested definitely mixed reactions particularly within the is what's industry itself May the number of Communities at who all of their individual games people have been basically bought out the biggest esports tournament organiser in the industry and used it to put on this event in Saudi and traditionally is not have not taken place and we have so what they've done as they put on their own event and they are.

There's nothing actually really about the sports World Cup that resembles the World as We Know It there are no national teams being sent.

It is a case of apparently 200 sports organisations which have been paid to take part because they are very well known is what's organisations we build teams and muscle gain and their competing across 21 different games all day.

Did you want a different games at the end of it something that was I guess woke up like was one of these sports organisations have won the most medals at got in from the garden camera you comfortable with her and prevent connected to gaming taking place in Riyadh personally absolutely not an interesting thing about the videogame audiences that about 20% of Gamers identify as lgbtq, which obviously Saudi Arabia is very unpopular in that demographic and I do think that there's there's an element of sportswashing some people pointed out about the very high level of sodium.

Esports as a young audience that watches esports, it's a young audience that plays games generally and I don't ever order and it's that's an important demographic for you know for the set for the Sony efforts in in laundering reputation so I had a bit of a problem with the sports World Cup being in Saudi Arabia and I certainly wasn't the only one some people boycotted it others and I'm looking at the numbers Audi government-backed gaming group says they want to invest 31 billion pounds to transform the country into a global esports hub by 20:30 so frankly despite their significant reservations.

It sounds like this is this is happening.

Well.

It sounds like they're throwing money at the situation and hoping it sticks.

It's certainly has been something.

I'm seeing as this successfully used as well.

They claiming that 500 million viewers tuned in and that it's the most watched event in 2024, but it's not the most watched event in 2024 because actually that's 21 different about it.

So you can see already.

But they're using this to can a try and draw people in and seriously it's hard, but currently I wouldn't say that they have you know maybe this was Frank thank you very much indeed Ashley the boss of the esports World Cup said everyone is welcome.

Everyone can participate in the competition and no one will be discriminated against that's a promise.

We can give this further coverage of that on the BBC News and Sport website.

Thanks for Kevin McDonald from the Guardian and to Frankie Ward sports broadcaster.

Andy to all of our guests.

That's it for today's programme thanks for listening.