Read this: TV's hidden dilemma

The UK Garage story hosted by DJ spoony and Jen Supernova story from us before the ground it was ukg from as we rewind pivotal figures and moments that thing UK garage and the UK garage door now on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts as this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in Edinburgh this week is the TV industry gathers to plot what it does next.

I'm going to be speaking to some of the big hitters.

We're in town are also going to look at not just too much was time in Scottish politics, but also has got his journalism has responded to that this time and will consider the health.

Scotland's best known publications will also be going to the US is the Democratic national convention of course it's a huge political moment with Calvin Harris formerly becoming the party's presidential nominee but it's an important medium moment to Wigan here.

Why but let's not here with the Edinburgh TV festival he kicked off on Tuesday I'm sharing a session back from the brink reimagining the future of television and those of you listening might be thinking what bring TV would appear to be booming in recent years there have been more more series and programs streaming services in the TV industry has been under pressure in the last 18 months and I'm joined by number of guests you know this industry Inside Out Chris Curtis is a TV channel broadcast Andy Harries runs Left Bank pictures the production company behind the Crown is a literary scout his company help secure the rights to the TV adaptation.

Sally Rooney normal people for the BBC and Stephen Lambert is chief executive of studio Lambert which made the traitors and many many other shows welcome to all of you Chris Curtis from broadcast let's start with you some people might be surprised to know that TV was anywhere near the bring.

Yes, I mean they've been oversupply if we if we are honest particularly train from the other side of the Atlantic while streamers were chasing subscribers rather than profitability.

They were ordering content and frantic pace that has slowed that's been coupled in the UK with a Advertiser cheap particularly TV advertising slow down over the last 80 months so that's impacted those domestic broadcasters who rely on that as their primary income stream preparing to give this talk at a 10-minute talk about the moment the TV finds itself in and I started by looking at what happened in 2023 last year and all the list of things that happened the shop.

Colin broadcast TV viewing figures since records began the worst add downturn and 15-years the Union back to declare state of emergency in the industry and we spoke to back to about that on the media show I noted the post-pandemic dipping viewing the right as an actor strike in the US rising costs affecting production and consumer spending Chris what else would you highlight in terms of trying to under explain two people listening.

Yes, there's been an awful lot of television out there, but a number of things came together that made this a difficult moment.

Yeah, I mean that all of that is true the other thing that the industry is grappling with is the digital transformation and heritage companies who have ordered shows and thought about how they feel their schedule and linear schedule with programming has changed and so does that mean then there are less commissions or just that there are conditions but with smaller budgets attack.

I seem to think the way that the UK and America programme television was very different 10 or 15 years ago and they would make that they make a six-part between series was in the US you would have 23 episode orders and you want to get to 100 episodes of something and that is not the case really anymore now.

I think people are both countries are kind of coming to a similar place, but because the way that people the way that comes manager has really changed streamers rolled out there streaming platforms with no ads on television before indication when you have like 100 something if you could sell it around the world that very different now, so the way that people need money from television changed when people have company is.

Figured out exactly had my place that revenue one more bigshyft Chris that I'm sure you've reported on a great deal is the the rise in the importance of technology in technology is always important television but now it feels like it is right at the centre of how not just programs and made but also how they deliver to all of us watching yes, that is true.

I mean I think that the Freedom that comes with the on-demand world is both liberating critic be creatively and liberating if you think I'm sure like the bear for example global hit critically acclaimed some of those apps run to an hour and 10 minutes some of those apps run to 27 minutes that sort of creative freedom from streaming and technology but the the impact of the technology is exactly what we've been talking about as you move away.

Rigid structures and schedules and you move away from a formulaic approach in which you could kind of plot what you needed to spend how you needed to spend it once you're liberated from all bets are off and that's where you get into situations where there are shows being made for eye-watering some of the potentially you know the economics of how you ever recruit that cash or or how you turn a profit for 14 better phrase clear needs to be the context in which everyone in the TV industry is doing their work.

That's Chris Curtis from broadcast magazine.

We've also got Stephen Lambert from Studio Lambert and he has left bank pictures in Burgas founder of CTL scouting and all of you of course do quite different jobs and I'm interested to understand what those jobs entail Steven

Start with you your chief executive of a huge independent production company studio Lambert how would you spend an average week in your role somebody in my role is to ensure that we sell ideas because the hardest thing in television is convincing a buyer that they should give an enormous amount of money for an idea that you haven't made yet and they've got to feel confident that you're going to be able to deliver on that idea and one of the key things that as a somebody in my position.

Is is to reassure the buyer that they should make that leap you think about it from my point of view.

They have been bombarded with so many ideas of ambition and and and they can only say yes to a tiny number of them and that is the Challenge for a buyer is that if they pick the wrong things then there's not that.

To pick an idea that can't be realised by the people that are pitching it, then they're going to possibly lose their job.

So it is very high stakes for the buyer and making a decision which idea to go for a confident.

Yes, these people can make this idea.

They're talking about is this is a very hard thing to do and you're very good at it as a your colleagues because studio Lambert makes a number of enormous television program, so we're on this subject.

I must ask you cos I'll be people listening on Radio 4 thinking when I have to try and picture ideas all the time give us some what is the best way of persuading someone to put a lot of money into your idea that you that you actually believe him.

I think some of one he is at some of our competitors pitch lots of ideas at once as if they kind of you don't like this.

Play poem what about this one where we would never do that.

We we have to believe in and my dear and really get behind it which one idea at the time and save this is the idea.

There's a big change in the marketplace in in the past in Britain you were expected just to bring an idea to one buyer and at the BBC or channel for ITV and you went to take it to their competitors at the same time.

Where is an American that was the opposite approach and we become a much more American like in Britain where people expect that you will expose as they call it the idea to everybody and you wait to see who is going to jump to it.

I'm taking notes.

I'm sure if you people listening to our as well play, let's talk about your job in international literary scouting there may be some people listening to us now who don't know very much about international literary scouting tell us what involves a Consulting firm that works with 2025 different production companies.

Videos worldwide in the United States that for the industry is the largest but I also have the UK and European clients and it's long-term Consulting relationship where I am I teams have cover material that can be adapted for television shows and feature films and it's largely books like the biggest part of it and Alfie tell people 40 to 50% but you're watching was adapted from another source than a screenplay or screenwriters idea.

We also do graphic novels and Comics in theatre in Edinburgh this week, and I've always wondered how much control does an author say of a novel have over what form that story takes on the screen the the film or the series that we're watching in the UK and the US

In Europe there is something a bit more alright with you cannot take away from an author and that allows the author to say if they do not like the adaptation you cannot read it, but you can sign away those rights usually I feel like I've got more important in the last few years and I think it's giving offers more power than I've had before in the last few years there have been able to come on his consultants and come as screenwriters on your project, but they usually won't have his approvals over cast or specific things and anyhow is this is an area.

You know well too.

Yes, it is because the Americans buy them also.

Anyway, it's all about the writer.

You know there maybe maybe 810 really great prices in the UK maybe 30 writers that site broadcasters and and for a scripted company is all about 234 really really good writers.

You're working with closely and that's basically my job is to make to look after them and like Stephen to work out with them how you sell their next project or has come up in a project that the broadcasters going to want selling selling television.

It's the most fun.

I think that's is what gets me up in the morning.

That's what it's supposed to be in the shower, but it is really and I'll be the solution to I have told you I was going to bed to lie.

Lie down later in the middle of the street to get the commission and I probably would be grateful.

I would have done in the past but that's happened.

And and you are currently adapting James Graham stage play Dear England it's about the England football team James Graham is giving the mactaggart lecture here in Edinburgh to I wonder what it was about that particular story that made you want to get involved with my screen at the moment and you know what is a populist and he draws very much from from from British culture, but I do think I did 7 after midnight last year so very successful show idea England follows that same pattern.

It's about an English football and English manager and it was a tremendous successful.

Play, I had work with James Arthur on quiz which was a previous play that was very successful about the Millionaire and that did very well for ITV

New the James has an amazing ability to take a play and rooted in reality which is don't you know you have you had to reinvent something like this 442b popular rooted and and real as well as you know more theatrical version of the Rings have to take out the fun, but you have to rework it the television.

It's also worth noting that the guys are talking about is the reassurance that existing IP gives buyers if they know it is fantastic stage writer.

Is it based on a wildly successful hit play the letter by can go and see and be aware of if there's a there's a book which is got a built-in fan base there is a wee in an environment in which one of the questions is to what extent are buyers on both sides of the Atlantic prepared to take creative risks vs to what extent are they looking for the reassure?

It was a bit cramped up the reassurance does some existing IP or existing format another part of the world that they feel like ok this takes away the the risk of spending his large sums of money from Studio Lambert and just explained for people who don't know the industry well how I P works when you work with the BC you're a public service broadcaster vs.

How it might work if you were working with a big streamer like Amazon Prime or Netflix an existing piece of I paid like a book or a stage play and how that gets adapted to television.

There's another kind of IP which is when we make our programs.

We've created our intellectual so if we make a show like celebrity across the world.

That's that's something that we've created and because we sold it to the BBC the and the Bee

Can you take the UK writes it means that we now own this piece of IP we've given away the UK right but we have the right to sell that program and the idea all around the world and that was the kind of exciting thing about a television producer was that they got a hit they will be able to do well by selling a show all around the world and the big change in the last decade has been the development of the streamers the global streamers so that when you sell a show to Netflix they take or world right and Evil Netflix as well as the Crown and work with the ground because we do the deal right at the beginning that his life and we retain the rights video.

Do you think you'll be able to do that now, but it does that deal feel better and better every time it feels very very good.

It's obviously it's it's an endless.

Could you do with well-defined period six decades of potential which had some point I suspect we will return to tell us the Chris in terms of how the interaction is between the producers and the the commissioners can be so there's a a noticeable difference in terms of how the BBC iTV Channel 4 Channel 5 my operating however as my operating it gets new ones but I think we touched on earlier TV traditionally was built on the concept of returning series that the what did the broadcast want to find a show that resonated with her local domestic audience streamers with their binging model and when they was particularly when they're in subscriber acquisition mode was more interested in the next new shiny.

Thing so I think that that that was sort of one key difference.

I think people still want to buy a great ideas and the streams have a holiday commissioners were based in London many of whom previously worked it all the BBC or iTV or wherever and so they are they are people that are part of the community and have similar taste.

So it's not so pronounced.

I think what's in grave danger this country in the long term is the short-term programming British programming BBC iTV Channel 4 Time talking about the single films for Potter's all three of those other projects.

I think that the budgets are going to come under such already coming under such pressure that they are being made less and less.

I mean there's much talk about the Broad television and theft of not having a single film category for television any longer because they are simply not been made and that's because we just don't have the money to make them you can't sell them easily.

You can't 3 presell that if you like to.

Global audience for Netflix in the UK for example is Leaning into the sort of traditional British programming so you see on Netflix more places now which resemble ITV and BBC programmes within the budget and actually similar actors that maybe 2-3 years ago and that's gone there because that will they'll BBC or iTV actors but you now see how stressful they can be it with an enhanced budget on on on them, please and he's talking about shows like a fool me once and shows like baby reindeer which feel like quintessentially quite British shows for me once was a massive smashed for Netflix and 10 million views in in the UK and it feels a lot Connolly stylistically from a casting perspective it feels a lot like a sort of a top ITV project absolutely.

The travel everywhere and Netflix setup in different parts of the world many many parts of the world and recruited the some of the best people in the world to work for them and so they understanding of the industry in the different parts of the world is extraordinary for a new player and they also discovered that if you find great people in in a particular territory and come up with the show that appeared in that territory if you if you're lucky and if you're still feel about it actually have a global hit the ones we just mention like baby reindeer or fool me once but Netflix's biggest show in the world has been squid game nobody expected that to be there biggest it and yes, it was created in career for Netflix in Korea but actually went everywhere and now of course you're making squid game the challenge co-production was Judi lamb.

Cold in which is also been a big success for the Netflix hit you've got on your hands which is for the BBC which is race across the world with lots of people listening to Radio 4 will watch I'm just on a practical level.

I think a lot of people would like to know how do you make it? How do you film a small group of people caring across large parts of her of the world in a way that turns into here and television series of very hard-working people following people on a bridge that we have some sense of where they're going but it's up to you Mr how they going to make those travel decisions and having to decide all the time how we're going to cope with him going this way.

What are we going to do when it's all about the patient in my crazy an enormous amount of material and very skilful people work in the Cutting Room to turn that into a coherent story and it as you talk about.

Across the world I'm thinking about another big theme here at the Edinburgh television festival which is the rise of short form and in particular the rise of YouTube is increasingly important.

Not the platform to watch short videos with as a platform to watch programmes as well those of you here who were involved in in making content different types of content.

Are you do you feel that to the side of where Andy of YouTube do you think that you need to be thinking about whether you can make content for YouTube or tiktok or does it feel like a separate world? I was waiting for the best of YouTube because people's attention span is there for getting shorter and YouTube watching YouTube fits perfectly and you see in YouTube and the growth of future is the Beast to Mount massive Entertainment shows with huge budgies and command 200 million views on a 20-minutes experience and I think how many senses that is where?

Entertainment, would you consider making and same question to you clearly? Would you be interested in making drama for example premium drama that came not just in our long episodes in shorter form.

Would that be at work? I think people have a Happy Christmas talking about with the bear and that when you're in a streaming you can attach to add breaks in the broadcast television and so you can make it anyway.

However.

There was an attempt to do a dramatic format a YouTube link and you know different lengths are definitely passport, but shorter four little bit harder but he has been a pleasure talking.

Thank you very much Steve I can hear you want to come in with studio Lambert make sure phone.

YouTube is it doesn't find the programs that it has on its platform, so would you like to go make a drama for YouTube well? You're not the money from YouTube so you've got to you.

Got to find some other way of doing match and if your successful on YouTube you might find money comes towards you because you've created the advertisers or sponsors, but it's not it's a completely different model.

It's for production companies like Left Bank and studio Lambert going onto YouTube YouTube interested in commissioning program.

So it is it is a fundamentally different way of making programs and 99.9% of what what's on YouTube isn't scripted bottle for me.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us the political context to this Edinburgh television festival is of course there is a new government already the

Ignore that it wants to in this is a quote rocket boosters under a number of industries including Film and Television so my final question to send me the three of you would be what would you like the government to do to make your life as people who work within the TV industry easier and more successful well, let's inscripted.

That's simple.

I they have the last government increase tax break from 20% to 40% On Films single British films that needs to be extended constricted television at least single films and miniseries.

If not more to buy clothes and I done trying to say where to make them and if you're the argument is that if you provide enough income tax incentives people will come to your territory your country and make it there.

Very well for scripted it can work.

Just as well for Unscripted honestly as an American I have never thought about the government putting rocket boosters under the entertainment industry, but if I meant to say something I would say putting money into apprenticeship programs that allow younger people who make that thought about a career in the Arts to see the Panorama of what's possible and Chris broadcast we've had some general statements from the new culture secretary Lisa Nandy but we away further detail on the government's approaches that are absolutely tax breaks 100% wider tax breaks is arguably compared to last the most important thing that the government can do for the British television history is leave it alone.

Don't use the BBC as a virtual football in the culture Wars don't waste time to look for reasons and opportunities to privatise Channel 4 take me up all its management time creates an environment in which the public service broadcasters feel supported and secure and

Thank you very much indeed.

That's clearly found out of CTL scouting Andy Harris CEO of Left Bank pictures Steven Lambert chief executive of studio Lambert thanks to all three of you.

Thanks Chris Curtis from broadcast and Chris is going to be staying with us a little while longer to work.

What we've never work before it burnt walking directions to the next president United States well as you can hear next on the media show we're going to the US democratic national convention is well underway in Chicago that was Barack Obama he spoke as did Michelle Obama both speaking on Tuesday night president Biden have been on the stage the night before and this is building up to hearing from the party's presidential nominee Conor Harris come to the time when vice president Harris has declined to give interviews to the media.

It's part of a

Equation of the role of the media is playing in the Harris campaign and to understand all of this I've been speaking to name the most of the podcast mixed signals from New site semaphore and I asked my email why she thinks the vice-president isn't doing interviews their campaign has Dad is that has had two packets cell match in a relatively short time.

She said that she hopes to schedule an interview before the end of the month and just get to the convention for so I didn't bother and hopeful that by the end of August there will be an interview that they also my fellow.

They do not need to give sources around her have said that there's so much you know and media coverage of her rallies.

She is the new person that everyone is true about being televised are able to speak to digital creators who will buy that message seems that are circulating that are getting the word out on her campaign and making her looking.

He may not me to give you know an interview at the same way that 20 years ago.

You would have to but how unusual is this for presidential nominee this close to the election to not be sitting down for any interviews.

It is unusual and yeah, it is an extension of kind of attitude Andy biden-harris campaign and from of course the president during his campaign as well as someone who gives very few interviews to the funeral press conferences extemporaneous opportunities to speak and it's an extension of that the last time we saw Harris giving interview is in June on the heels of the of course.

Where has had a quick shocking performance right so the contrast is often given as ok.

Love the last time.

Can I have a really in-depth interview people don't people like to point.

Lester Holt interview 2021 which of course my marmalade and which will be a weak spot for this is unusual and yeah, it's something that we are you know and media care a lot about and I think that there is much about it now.

I've been reading this has been doing what the calls huddles if not interviews, what are they? Have? They work? What are the rules of the game there are in a way that off the record meeting with them remember the press Off the Record in a present band was not doing and it was only a few times.

I think so two conversations that you've done on the record after 70 seconds extremely short amount of time before you know where I can barely got in the question.

Are you going to do an interview before her staff are staying up question times over there are a number of ways that the Harris campaign can get its message to people via the media they speak in the journalist interviews there's as you are leading to holding events or creating content which is then shared online and that gets director of the people to harass campaign is trying to reach a third way of reaching people by the media buying advertising and the Harris campaign is really spending isn't it yesterday digital ad spending approaching 16-in on digital campaigns she was announced, so that's 10 times with Donald Trump is banned in the same amount of time x 10 times and also quite significant and the big rush right now.

It's a define who is karma hair both the campaign and the Tramp and scamp.

Rushing to define that question where are both trump and Harris spending their money does it primarily go online now orders TV still bringing a lot of advertising revenue local to me.

This is one of characters are not speaking to the National you know the builders.

They need to reach extremely well at this point that doesn't come from getting any other two than your time ^ 11 might be right.

That's what they're arguing now.

You could stay well those answers to those passions and I would a critical and those questions will be asked by the national natural and particularly for Trump is so high really come down to I think a lot of earned Media that the election that would prove to be the case, but I think the media is really what is impossible or national level and in a local level.

Showing up on his rallies addressing builders are making their baton, and when you say turn media you were centrally mean coverage that you're not paying for you.

Just generate these lines or content or events that in and of themselves generate media coverage coverage on news outlets and extremely high ratings for for network.

I can see you're seeing you know people are interested in covering her and her because she is new and fundamentally.

Where are the presence of news right and the question is who is Simon Harris what is she riding on? There's a lot of new news energy on her and people compared to the current focus on Donald Trump is Canada in 2016 where he had cursed so much coverage and someone is depressed was not taking him seriously at the time people argue in this car.

Here's the serious contender I was I was interesting that you mentioned 2016 because as you were talking there.

I was thinking of course one of the big Dynamics at the 2016 campaign was Trump's ability to generate Media cover presumably now.

He's not the New Kid On The Block now that Paris is there is the new candidate which the media is looking at is he still able to generate that kind of uncovered which he did so effectively back in the last decade.

How do I trust you? Think is better time as his role is extremely one press conferences that he is giving you know pointing out his and hers she's also going on and playing golf on Youtube channels with the players you going on giving interviews on Kik he's going on speaking on axis 211.

He is a very different audience in podcast right so serious this question of you know what is happening.

Is different Michael Michael Kors is different as we called it an hour podcast mixed signals of the anime where all the crypt overall.

What were the kind of gaming world that were in a trumpet putting a lot of attention and we don't know about the voters.

I think the same way that we you know we study other so that's weird trumpet spending My Time thanks to Nice from the new site semaphore what next on the media show we're going to focus on Scottish Media both been impacted by a tumultuous time in Scottish politics and how some of its best-known use publications are faring and we three guess who are going to help us with this the first is Douglas Fraser BBC Scotland business and economy edited his welcome to the media show as the as the twists and Turns of Scottish Politics of played out particularly in the last date.

Have you been able to observe a knock on impact on the Scottish Media independence movement at the election in July and it's been doing that for some months had lots of controversies and particularly within the Scottish National Party that it was expected that might affect the Scottish Media noise and vitriol on social media around the mainstream Media perhaps in 10 years since the independence referendum and that's anniversaries of next month not so clear that the big issues like that have been is important to selling newspapers on indeed subscriptions for news publishers, what one title with a strong propaganda approach to supporting independence that national assistant paper the Herald based in Glasgow make some waves politically it was propaganda, but it doesn't.

Sisters as much to begin commercially from taking sides in that debate.

It's in London I think what I did.

Just make things less interest to be found in Scotland with the SNP on the back fruit that wrong of course going on here and in many ways in the economy in Scotland is more like the rest of the UK in London is it London that third layer and listeners may be surprised to know that some of the best-known titles in Scotland The Scotsman the Herald the Daily Record are not Scottish Highland news media is similar to that of Britain start using prints sales trying to make online subscriptions of traffic work for them with advertising but at the mercy of people control algorithms at Facebook and Google compared with other nations and regions of Scotland score of England and Scotland started, how much stronger position all the london-based titles on the news dancing with Scottish edition.

Started early 80s and 90s when printing became possible, what's the Daily Record is a big national red talk and city papers for the four main cities in Edinburgh The Scotsman Glasgow to Harold is a stable with the heaviest from London with UK and international news they've been controlled by owners outside Scotland for a long time The Scotsman since the 1950s and that has a place of an issue, but the challenge the Scottish base titles nose is about the resource to cover Scotland journalists to cover not just the top lines of the Holyrood soap opera but delving into the public policy areas covering diverse news from around Scotland holding local authorities to account at least struggle to compete with a broader range of coverage you get with her and additional Scottish title with the Times Daily Mail the Daily Record up against the sun's Scottish edition of the owners of london-based titles, they have deep pockets to make the transition into online subscriptions alongside there.

Print off the Herald they're pushing girls subscriptions innovating with some Scottish football club content and all they have big companies behind them in the Herald case America's get through.

They haven't had time resorts given to them to invest in that digital transition Media story in Scotland last week Neil McIntosh Theatre The Scotsman one of the best-known type resigned and I understand that connected to resourcing issues.

Did the title in Scotland have lost a lot of journalist that was yet another round and Neil McIntosh as with many other detergents.

Got in before me of implemented one round of cuts of journalist, but bought it going to do yet another one to say to resign and so they're coming back a lot more and lots of the production of that is done remotely out of Scotland so not supporting the number of objects.

There are and they lack the ability to cover the Scottish institutions that they were themselves institutions of Scottish lifesaver important to the increased awareness of Scottish identity in the second half of the last century.

There has been talk of the desert for a local government and other institutions without any accountability to the local journalist.

That's not as big and problem in Scotland I don't take for your titles and disappear but the ability of journalism team on a Shoestring means nothing like that the time that's also the experience to cover the stories you would hope that they said something about the physical parts of Scotland smaller cities retaining stronger local and city.

Thank you very much indeed for providing us with so much context well.

I mentioned that The Scotsman resigned last week Frank O'Donnell is a former editor of The Scotsman and of the Press and Journal now with communications consultancy Charlotte Street partners.

He's with me here in Edinburgh on the media.

What was your reaction to that that resignation is just this one symptom of a much broader pressure being exerted on on news media in Scotland yeah that there is massive Rose and that is exacerbated by having to change the economic model the only way out of this crisis is to make the digital work is going to die is going to go particularly for Regional newspapers and so the only way that titles like The Scotsman and helping survivors with genuine digital subscription offers the issue is that digital properly is actually more expensive than doing prints not the cost of a CT distribution but actually making the quality content that people are prepared to pay for and presumably there is a a cat on.

How many subscription-based news media businesses, Scotland and it's people can support yeah, there is that there's a race there.

I mean 1 things.

I always used to say to staff was if you look at it some of the successful titles in the US they have actually surpassed the number of digital subscribers is greater than the high point of print so I always felt that it was possible to do that.

They idea that the head of journalism in the past.

I don't I don't agree with that.

I think the issue.

Is there isn't the resources to make digital work yet? Who sang it well when you look across the Scottish Media Scottish news media ok? Well.

They are on the right track well.

I think the DC Thomson titles have done better so the present in the courier significant investment there and I think the core thing that is the managed to bring in different types of people and also they managed to change the content because when you're a general if you're dealing in the kind of content is there and everywhere and B indeed on the BBC website very well, that's not good if you've got to offer something distinctive otherwise people in subscribe and Furious you have.

Steam career covering not discuss politics many issues in Scotland the sun is Scottish politics you've heard me.

Talk a little bit earlier about coming to Harris's campaign and how it interacts with the median how at the moment she's not giving interviews to the news media.

How does the news media in Scotland fit into the calculations of Scottish politicians these days when they're trying to communicate with people well, I think I think really under SNP it hasn't been as important.

I think there's a feeling that wrong way my view that the heating and therefore there has been for me and nothing agement from the Scottish government with the social media and I think particularly know when you see the public spending cuts.

It's absolutely imperative that has got his number honest with the public of really have to go and one of the key ways to do that as to do three Scottish medium.

Thank you very much indeed and sitting next to Frank in the media show studio here in Edinburgh is Karen Goodwin co-editor of

Yesterday's news platform the ferret and can be very interested to speak to you because it's Frank has been describing and it's not just gonna does trouve everywhere news organisations are looking for new models new sources of revenue.

That's what the fair.

It is and how it's funded absolutely I think what sing they're absolutely Rings true and saw the fair.

It was born out of the difficulty getting good investment in investigative journalism and the founder is in 2015 looked around couldn't see a future in the newspapers that they work within the orbit with the established so the set-up the fair as a new way of doing things is a non-hierarchical media co-op we have a majority of journalist on our board before you go any further.

How does a drop of journalists work because it's most definitely the boss well when we will hold the reins.

Baba, I'm more kind of open agenda.

If you like people can feed in it means that because a journalist sound different parts of Scotland are able to report back on their patches to have you know ideas.

We can take forward different projects in a anamorphic going and easier way possibly then might be in the traditional Newsroom and how is a community Newsroom work on a practical thought we also have a continues room in Glasgow as you've mentioned that was set up about a year ago and we didn't have enough as prior to that.

We were organisation would hold member events in places around Scotland because we Scotland weighed, but we wanted to also have a base where people could interact with us and maybe what was traditionally thought of as the way that local Communities could come into the local newsrooms.

Just wondering can we have a shop front so people can come into reception they can tell us what you think we should cover and we also have a regular service like that.

Editorial meeting where we invite people who are sort of particularly interested in different subjects, I hear what they're thinking and I think it's that kind of trying to make that reconnection with the public.

Do they come in people do come in a good stories from we've had quite a few different stories.

We've had stories on the Housing emergency.

We've had stories on food insecurity all sorts of different things and yeah, we've yet things like forever chemicals is something that we've covered in Scottish Water people want good news and they want to have in-depth proper constructive journalism.

That's all we are providing very very interesting.

I'm sure people listening thinking alright.

I'm interested to go and see that so can you give us the address always where is the Communities that people would like to walk in and suggest a story they can find all the details on the phone and he said join us and support independent Media thank you very much indeed to Douglas Fraser Frank O'Donnell and to Karen Goodwin of the media show back at the Edinburgh

Festival next year hearing from Nicola shindler founder of Quay Street Productions one of the UK's most foremost TV producers with credits including the dramas Queer as Folk Last Tango in Halifax and happy Valley she's 111 baftas for her work and we were both on stage earlier as part of one of the sessions at the festival not long after it.

We found a corner to have a chat and bats and ever to be we ended up talking about the impact that the global streamers have had on her work.

You really good to me.

You know more people want drama the better it is for in terms of what I have to do and think about yes different because they want you know the format a one drama in the shape is sometimes different BBC or iTV would offer look at single dramas or 3 part dramas and for a long time streamers were doing that long-running shows are on today episode.

I wanted shows which have very strong cereal arcs which is you know see it stories which look an Audience with bring you back.

So they were quite different from what they were looking for actually as the years have gone past a lot of what the students looking for certainly Netflix in the UK I think he's not that dissimilar from what we show on BBC and ITV it just sometimes has more scale is sometimes has a more global look that they kind of merging into what they want very interested to hear about your working processes because you've been behind so many popular incredibly high impact programs about how it works when you have an idea or a writer has an idea.

You've got some very high profile collaborators, so you've worked with over the years.

How do you go back to pull it apart we make sure that it's really is a proper fully formed idea and then I'll do it two ways.

I had a go to those buyers.

I'll go to the really early on and so look forward to streamers, but the other way is we now developing house a lot more since setting up Quay Street it's one of the things I wanted to do it like to be Studios which have the ability to develop ourselves because it is so big now and make sure that we get the right voice and and it feels offered and it feels absolutely the program that we want to eat and then we go out and sell it expensive development process that before you know the program will get me.

I don't foolishly commission everything that come through the door it like the idea that I think it's so original we have to see a script in order to sell it because sometime today.

You know you need to hear the writer's voice or it's such a slam dunk idea that think he's so great.

I think I'll be multiple buyers for it.

So it's good for me to have the Script or it's it's come to us because some writers do come and they've already written something on spec or it's all those different ways specifically about the US crime writer Harlan Coben adapting number of his novels for Netflix and you're involved in this project.

How's that working? Well? I started working hard in a long time 10 years ago now.

We made our first over Skype and that was an original idea from Holland and we were just looking for a writer or we looking for an audience who voices and work with Richard II who is the other executive producer on it.

We wanted the best storytellers and we went to Holland and he was.

It's already his books and so we started working with him on a couple of Originals the second one that Netflix original for Amazon so it's brilliant he comes to us.

We had a look at the book and asking if we can adapt it or he comes with an original idea and the team Danny Brocklehurst who is the writer whose written most of his projects and the four of us will sit down and will explore whether this can be television and then we explore how to make it work and I think the reason he is absolutely feeds as his brilliant storytelling constantly as you're talking people can probably the Hub in the background of all the candies at the Edinburgh TV festival you said something in the session.

We did earlier.

I want to ask you about which was that sometimes drama could be made on Lower budgets.

But but it's so huge and I don't think all the money is on screen and I think they would sometimes with a project is not interesting to make something for slightly less money is a consumer view expectation now the drama looks credibly premium to use the industry word.

I don't think Money always equals good-looking drama.

I think that sometimes it's the talent involved and it's about the idea and I also think sometimes things should feel really raw and intimate and that sometimes need a lower budget.

I don't think you need a million extra for everything.

I don't need 100 shots per episode to make really good drama.

I would like to know it's brilliant to have that money and it's brilliant to spend it well and it'll make those big hi and shows some stories that should be told in a rough day is the wrong word it's terrible but more bespoke way that you know more individual way and that doesn't mean spending the money always.

Position now drama classes at the moment because obviously the high cost of living which has impacted but also rapes are gonna rentals at Studios everything they've actually a lot of problems with you know we were talking about the Public Service Broadcasting just if we could be making drama at lower cost as well.

Many thanks to Nicola shindler from Quay Street Productions for speaking to me still with me here on the meteor shower curtains from broadcast and Nicolette saying out loud set a time here where lower budgets would be ok definitely you don't need to have lots of vfx Dragons to make a fantastic show and actually you know that the show that recently made for Netflix for me once feels like a and ITV style domestic thriller and yeah the level of inflation.

I've been in production has been intense insane and the the there needs to be a correction in that contemporary British authentic relatable Stories can be produced at a price point that doesn't require a such a complex funding model which is where we got at the moment no earlier in the programme of course we were talking about some of the profound challenges facing the same as the Edinburgh TV festival is focused on some of those profound challenges well, but the Festival of this nature is also about bringing attention on to certain individuals or certain projects that different people in the industry one everyone else in the industry to get excited about have you seen anything as you been here in Edinburgh you think ok? This one's coming.

This is this could be a hit.

There's a little bit of bugs around the number of the number of titles earlier this week BBC and Michaela coel's.

Drama series she's really teaming up with the production company that made I may destroy you so she's doing a show first day on earth that British woman going to Ghana to reconnect with estranged father.

They're not really interested Jesse Armstrong exact producing.

He's one of the key creative pint succession so that that that potential mechanical that feels like a very exciting so dumb and then some interesting stuff as a career in format coming to do ITV called genius game David Tennant is sort of front of it, but it's a game play A brainy gameplay of experiments possibly got hints of the traitors be interesting to see how that does fried TV watch out for both of us.

Just find a job like yours broadcast you having his many conversations as you possibly can with many different people and normally at these kind of festivals after you've had a certain amount of conversations theme start emerging you start noticing.

Ok.

Everyone is talking about this.

Has that started to happen yet, but lots of 30th conversations lots of gossip as good fun aside from that of course.

I'm talking about I think that there is a lot of talk about winners and losers.

There's a lot of talk about polarisation production companies are shuttering and closing greater rate than I've ever known in 15 years covering their the sector and yet at the same time.

There is still a huge amount of money knocking around and there are bigger and being commissioned another before so winners and losers and the the excitement the opportunity is the schadenfreude that comes with all of that.

I'll let you get back to the conversation Chris thank you very much for helping us through covering the TV industry.

That's Chris Curtis from broadcast.

Thank you very much into him.

Thank you very much indeed to all of our guests here in Edinburgh that is it.

Me and the media show I will say that Radio 4 continues, Ian Edinburgh later on as the city's festivals coverage continues Kirsty Wark will be presenting front row.

She's going to be talking to the screenwriters who would just have delivered his mactaggart lecture at the TV festival you can hear front row at 7:15 from me and the media show team our time is up.

Thank you very much and listening goodbye.