Read this: Is the Online Safety Act fit for purpose?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week.

We're talking to commentator one of the standout social media stars of the Paris Olympics who first went viral during the covid lockdown with parody dog videos and we're asking what the media lawyers actually do with two of the bath and hearing about the long battle to get cameras into courts within the impact of that in recent days with judges films handing down sentences on people involved in the recent.

I'm going to start the program on the aftermath of those rights hundreds of people some as young as 12 of being prosecuted for Public Order offences last week.

We discuss the role social media platforms may have had both in organising the disorder and spreading false information now the police are turning the tables trawling through online evidence to try and bring people to.

Is a solicitor and was chief crown prosecutor for the North West of England during the last compatible unrest in 2011 welcome to the media shown as hear me through some of the online material that's being used as evidence right now by the police.

So you mentioned social media.

Yes, there's a number of platforms the ones we know about their messaging apps that are people who been whatsapping each other and and groups have been broken into all people in the group of said, what's up with the contents of those messages are there a forums and discussion boards, you must know Reddit and 4chan and a few others.

There's live streaming platforms is video photo sharing platforms is email correspondence blog.

I mentioned that you were chief prosecutor the last time the UK face writing like on this scale is a huge amount more material this would have been back then.

It's stratospherically more we had back in 2011.

We had fewer smartphones now.

We have many more smartphones and smart because what they've been doing on Dancing These filming themselves committing crimes sharing that with others and sharing other people's committed commission of crimes to the amount of material which is why I constantly keep saying about the right at this prosecution this investigation will have a very long tail it will be many months in some cases for the material to be properly analysed and you could be out on a beach next July before you get a knock on the door, so a lot of them pretty fast.

I just want to bring up the question of civil.

Because accessing this level of data on the activities of private individuals all their civil liberties questions involved some of the internet law that applies to this.

They were fighting crime is an exception too many of our any of our rights that we may have got three do you think so that's what I do and they have to do something and proportion away as I said there is an enormous amount of material that focusing on those where there's wheelchair or serious has already occurred close the case of the dealing with now in due course.

I imagine all the others or less serious that will come into the into the window of police investigation.

Are you saying is engineer? You know you can take a day off from civil liberties that suggested if you are brought before a court and you have your legal representatives.

Whether or not investigating was appropriate and where the evidence and managed to a crime so you're absolutely not you will get and you do have a right and dance with me and they'll be applied and I always used to say they are the best human rights because they have to remember that are simply the best present the best cases, but they have to be fair to the both the suspect and the other witness in the car.

It's about the evidence either things how it's being gathered, but the call's are also using the new online safety act that was legislation that aims to protect against harmful content and they're using that to prosecute Behaviour online that act came into effect in January only partially for now, but some people are describing what's happening right now as it's first significant test and as if it was already possible wasn't it? Because people are online activity in cases of incitement for example, but what did the online safety act add?

Legislation that says the future communication out there that causes harm threatening people that causes harm that actually will be a crime in place computer misuse act been in place.

It's gives another Level another another tool and that's all it is.

I think the 7 months has been placed.

I think it's only been actively used in the last few days really we had the prosecution of the talking about the first person prosecuted under the Forth communication was somebody that that that made up story about the far right so reality is it it's there it's available to them.

I'm not entirely sure it will use it as frequently as people think it's because there are other tool in the box dimension in sidemen defences available to imagine.

That's what they will go to as their first port of call.

And we did speak last week and factory Janice from the Times about one of the case is one of the people involved in this prosecution using the online safety act as it turns out that reported down a woman alleged to be the first person to run you identify the Southport attacker as a Muslim immigrant.

She was arrested on suspicion of an online safety act offence and one order offence and the movie online safety legislation applies when a person knows what they supposed to be false, but she did include the caveat words if this is true in her posts.

I wonder you make of that to you.

It will be tested in the court a lot of occasions and the others on this program.

That will say the same thing we offer we know what the posting we put a question mark on the end as if somehow that means we not have to see what we really saying so this is looked at in great detail.

Simply saying is this true or whatever it is that means that you're not saying that is true, so the English language is that is quite clever in this regard.

It makes it more difficult but this new legislation.

It will be tested and I have no doubt that particular question will be answered and just give us another couple of his arms.

If you've got them of the kinds of people being here right now using the act after these rights dimension disorder in Derby that night.

He was live streaming that was from the far-right running for his life from the far right which she needs to be alive that he was then processes under that he was convicted and sent it to the guilty and has gone to jail for 3-months unfortunately.

It wasn't seen the joke by others others are outstanding but I can't go into great detail about number you're a legend for example.

Tommy Robinson had a cold on people to attack mosques when I said he didn't he's never ever said that so there is there currently going through the system and the others as I said we've literally scratch the surface there are tens and thousands of messages out.

There will have to be examined in some detail ok? What time you mentioned Lorna Lorna is an academic whose thinking on issues of online safety as you help bring this legislation about under the last government Lorna Woods she's professor of Law at the University of Essex and lonely.

You're also here on the media show so thank you very much for that.

Hello you just just your original idea.

I think you said you wrote it on the back of a sandwich wrapper.

What was it at the sandwich was cranberry and delicious it was an idea sparked by the government's internet.

The green paper which was autumn 2017 it's identified a whole host of problems on the internet, but had some come to her a dead end because it was looking at how you could make liable for the contents of the user this if you like using a traditional Media publisher model which really doesn't fit what they do so my idea was to say well, are they like a quasi public space and to take the Health and Safety at Work act as a model requires employers people controlling public spaces to look at the Architecture the fittings the environment and try and remove obvious.

Dangers to safety obvious hazards and it's become increasingly apparent over the last 10 years but the choice architecture on the platforms do affect how people behave so the idea was I supposed essentially product safety to test the features to look at how the system was was running to resource customer complaints that's content moderation effectively but the act with the actor.

We've got did it get anywhere close to what you were suggesting yes, and no yes in the sense that the act requires services to be safe by Design and it does look at the features and the functionalities of the services.

Zodiac is also very focused on content and talking about the harm created by the content which is not so much a good description say of content that on its own may not be a problem the content once it goes viral or repeat it becomes a problem so in terms of linking to content and also the act sting wishes between different sorts of content that makes it quite complex and put a sort of a question in place which is what sort of content are we look rather than just looking at the systems and the functionalities are operating ok, so say you wanted to focus on the fundamental structures of the platforms the album.

Rather than worrying about the post of individuals, but that's actually where the legislation is ended up is that right yes, yes and so therefore I guess I should ask you.

What do you make the way it's been interpreted now the prosecutions after the riots in some instances.

I mean first thing to say these duties are the criminal offences that the we were talking about earlier or enforce the duties on the services on yet enforce because they required further guidance from regulator Ofcom and although ofcom's moved quite fast on this the fact is that still Consulting on what the format of of the house in the guidance will look like LOL was brilliant place now properly in place if I've not got it back together because it takes time but you know what I mean.

Could the rights have been stopped soon.

I might not have happened at all.

You that well, I don't think we can claim the rights and tylee on social media, but I think that if platforms has got better systems in place perhaps introduced triage mechanisms perhaps invested more in moderation tools then things would have been better.

I think certainly at the more severe and where we are talking saying sidemens the stirring up offences those sorts cleared criminal matters.

I think it's much more problematic when we are talking about the missing information for example the people who wear spreading the rumour that the attacker in Southport was an immigrant was a Muslim

That's all to a particular community that sort of content is much more difficult the oblique content is more difficult to classify directly as Criminal contact and the reason that's important is because companies will only have studies for criminal content and I think that's why the the offence the false communications offence is going to be significant in that regard.

Ok? I've just going to drop to the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan as he doesn't think this legislation is fit for purpose the government's now so it's going to review the legislation.

What do you help or come out of that well? I think there are possibly some gaps.

So how do we think about contents?

In the phraseology that was being used when they went through about content home for two adults and the content that is sub criminal but if it was a public platform for example broadcasting will probably be regulated.

I think we need to have to have a look at how we tackle that especially where you have got accounts with very large followings or accounts that are if you like a pink the get up and behaviours of traditional Media ok.

Just just one question for you as before you move on which is we're going to discuss later Elon musk's latest 4 hours into politics, but he's had a lot to say about the riots Bruce Daisley a former senior executive at Twitter said on Monday that the UK should issue an arrest warrant if masks keep stirring on the rest as he put it there any Powers the online safety bill to do.

Prosecute foreign entities or even bannocks in the UK prosecuting is subject outside the jurisdiction.

Is is is only possible in very limited circumstances.

There are powers however to to block services.

There are a series of powers in the business disruption Ashes and the two types of the first type addresses, what's called ancillary services so Pattaya single payment service regulator Ofcom can go to the court and say this company is not complying won't comply will never comply.

Can we have an order to tell these ancillary services to stop doing business if that doesn't work.

I'll come condensed the course and actually ask for the service.

Right ok Laura Woods thank you very much and is it herself before you that is what happened online but is there a danger of overstating the role of social media in the right? What about the rest of the media? How has its shape the national discourse around the issue at the centre of all this immigration last week.

I discussed this question with the editor of The Sun I don't think it's fair to say the same playing out on the streets now is a result of the mainstream media coverage.

I think you took to social media and disgusting characters like Tommy Robinson that Victorian you can from the sun's perspective but you guys last week found a striking 69% of those surveyed felt that the traditional news media as also driven the rights to some degree to discuss all that and join by Yasmin alibhai-brown columnist at the Independent and sunder katwala director of the thinktank British future.

Thank you both so much for joining us.

Let's look at the long-term Media narratives first.

Jasmine how do you feel the media is depicted migrants and asylum-seekers over the years can I say? I'm not with the Independent ok? Sorry about that from the Independent that sorry I don't know what was a lot and this story is a very long story if you go back to the huguenots were treated with great contempt and I'm so when they came to our shows very late, but what I think it's been so easy I think for mainstream Media to shove off any responsibility by just saying social media social media social media three things they are also part of the social media for meant many of them and

Without questioning some of the politicians have made a career been anti-immigrant blaming it all on them instead of questioning them as they should have proper always should they've gone with the flow they've gone with the following never taken responsibility and there are also of course people remember the headlines and the arguments are around if you got front page headlines that things like how migrants national homes or migrants moving Britain's benefits, which both came from the Daily Express and the past or 4004 and murderers and rapists we can't throw out from the Daily Mail or a song called of misusing Cockroaches to describe migrants talking about the Muslim problem and people argue it creates a climate which eventually leads to write to the setting fire to a hotel with asylum seekers in at your nose and you agree absolutely one of the failures of cleaning not just that side of the political spectrum, but the entire mainstream media has been 20.

Not not to present the fact that the public need to know not to give them for example when we see sooner was banging on and on and on about the Boats and in many of these supportive papers and on and on and on about the boat.

I'm not never heard or so any girl is asking so why have you got hundreds of thousands of Indians coming in legally into this country? What's the difference between blowers at suppose that would say that's legal question why? Why are you deem is in one lot of immigrants and then making this happen explain to us if that's got you here gacha question explain ok.

Let me bring in the toilet and we're talking about the mainstream media right now the Legacy Media whatever you want to call them student blaming the media in part for the rights is too simplistic.

I think it's more complicated.

Series in politics and the media about this one is that this stuff cuddles and boils over because we run away from it and we don't debate it and therefore frustration boils over and the other argument is that people really Stoke it talk about it in a particularly dehumanising way, that's why it boils over and it is less credible.

I think to see the problem.

Is you not allowed to talk about immigration people talk a lot about immigration in the media and their has actually been some softening overall of attitudes in quite a cathartic impact because we had a polarising about brexit free movement, but there's a difference between the debate about brexit the debate about immigration the Politics of that and then the kind of language might be used for asylum seekers or the night news about Muslims because they're you have to prejudices that have actually have a much broader reach.

I don't deserve all done that in terms of its remove the long.

Race over 30 or 40 years but it's struggle to apply it's new race norms to Muslims as a group that gets more Prejudice and two asylum seekers in the way speaks about the Express changed hands the editor went to a slept with him that he been looking at the front pages and they wouldn't be publishing the kinds of things they had been a problem with mainstream Media they are very safe.

Is you know they can get out of these things by claiming commission a book by Kelvin McKenzie it's still available in which he defended migration listen to him today.

Ok the same man wrote an entire book for me saying why immigration was good for us and the problem with the address is his view my the lazy people of Britain who don't want to play is not here to put his what about the opposite perspective that certain sections of the media any discussion of immigration levels.

Bestest tasteful at worst ways to naturally that's caused the same problem One media outlet where this discussion isn't happening happening, but it's in One Direction ok is vox pops I hate box box because they do nothing to make a Sunburst and they never ask an immigrant.

How do you feel when all this is going on around you but you know I never get to hear their voices concert the does the Preston do a good enough job explaining immigration for example the context of the distinction between legal and illegal migration.

I think it's struggles partly because it's a very party political debate.

I think in the recent BBC review of it's covered it said there's no deliberate biased but they asked use for example people across the spectrum agreed that it covered Asylum much much to illegal migration flows much much too little because one was politically contested and the other wasn't so we don't talk about very large groups hongkongers coming to Britain which are really important social.

Because it's not politically contested, so we don't have a debate about integration diversity.

What makes it work.

What makes it go wrong with ten to follow what the Westminster debate is shouting at each other caricature debate.

Where are the Poles of the Debate get heard well actually the 70% of people in the middle who think the pressures and gains you have to handle it well that gets crowded out but suppose people don't offer to phone up on a phone in or sending me emails or sending me and one of them is the prices from Communities that have been left behind.

What do you make about? Just totally reject that there are some people.

Obviously you came out who are feel.

Everybody's failed them and I can understand that but you watch them you know the people who are really suffering those who suffered after austerity and in all those years in between mothers with young children more than 2.

Play really poor the disabled those doing 3 jobs and can't even feed their children.

They weren't out in the streets this narrative.

I refused I absolutely rejected because it just gives an alibi two people last week on the Tube man.

Just comes a WhatsApp to me ask me for the I am who I am tells me to F off we're back.

I came from abuses me for no good reason.

How much are the thing is about islamophobia specifically.

No, it wasn't it was my brown skin see me in the public space like Diane Abbott like now zarah sultana the MP why you here why are you in the public space F off and you think I meant something that left behind idea Sunday is it fair to say that there are some legitimate grievances that the media should a dress has the movie.

Turn off certain parts of the population.

I think the media was character in those places when it gets in and took some only when something has happened to Corsa legitimate calls for change in areas that might might be about how immigration Asylum a handle as well as being a pattern of sending people hotel and not even telling you it's gonna happen until something happens, but they won't 1-in 1000 people in those taking part in writing and violence so that was an orgy of a legitimate concerns driven by racism is important that legitimate concerns about economics about immigration about integration you can only to find a legitimate concern if you do find any legitimate concern first the legitimate concerns the ones where people vote for parties have protest have Packard don't get your voice heard because there was violence in the police on you attacked and injured the police because they were protecting a mosque that sort of illegitimate concerned and politicians certainly deal with the Democratic

About changing our society that really matters without panda into that because we look at the way the media can have all the way potentially the media can have an open and honest conversation.

I think you consultations on immigration and integration back in 2018 and you found out of the many people have a new one for you and you see they see both the pressures and the games of immigration.

Just talk about that a well-presented in the media this voices.

They're not they get crowded out of the media and the political debate most people balances using pressure and gauge when 26th towns and cities of making of sit down and talk about what the system should be but we also held an online survey at the same time where you had to turn up and the people the strongest views against and the people the strongest news for the 5 times as likely to participate was that about 10 on 6 out 10, but how that was going.

They didn't take part in online.

So they are calling and he didn't share it with all of their friends.

So you do that if you're holding a phone if you're an MP

You do get to hear much much much more from the Poles of the Debate van from where most people ask if you don't go and that they bought her as I think have the responsibility to do you don't hear about her most people feel about how to handle and the other one.

Sorry.

I just think that this kind of Central premise uncontrolled immigration is too much uncontrolled immigration when we Uganda Nations game it was the same question in the 60s Enoch Powell was popular with the same question we need people to explain to to Citizens evandale many years ago had the fantastic programme on BBC one thing it was called when the immigrants left her does not have a fantastic program on the BBC Weather got rid of all immigrants in one area in Lincolnshire and said to the locals now you take the jobs and there was none judgemental.

It was very very well made.

Open people's eyes as to what immigrants were actually doing and we need more of that what about the moment and we could keep talking all day obviously but we can't discuss.

Thank you so much Yasmin alibhai-brown and sunder katwala but now we're not going to move too far from that subject but we could just be discussing but I do want to turn to Elon Musk the Tech Billy posted a live conversation with Donald Trump on Monday night on his platform x and immigration a major issue in the US election to afford came up masks interventions into US and UK politics a lot of attention not least his claim during the recent riots in Britain that Civil War is inevitable his voice on x maybe loud but the platforms funding model doesn't look like something to shout about last July must disclose the Dead been a 50% drop in advertising revenue on X and now.

Xx is suing and advertising industry umbrella body hears Linda yaccarino.

Managing director last week today we filed anti-trust Law suit against the global Alliance for responsible Media forum scheme members and the World Federation of advertisers targeted our company and you are uses they can Spire to boycott x which threatens our ability to thrive in the future well Lara O'Reilly senior correspondent a Business Insider and she's here hello Laura just the parents or next.

He's back on the platform.

He wants loved the interview was play the technical problems just what happened.

Yeah, it didn't get off to the best start in that it took 42 minutes for the Livestream to actually begin musk said they had been some sort of cyber attack where the bad actors are going to try to flood the platform with traffic and that have sent it going haywire.

We haven't got any evidence of that was the case but clearly as the Kamala Harris campaign pointed out it's

The platform that still can't run a livestream unfortunately and it was just audio not video it just audio right ok.

Well.

We just hearing her ex is managing director.

They're talking about a conspiracy around advertising what why are mosques activities apparently scaring advertisers of the platform is that was going up I mean yeah where to begin.

I mean as soon as must came in he made a big deal cutting about that about 75 80% of its staff so that includes the people that keep the platform safer increase the people that Grease the wheels are advertised and make sure that the campaigns are running and the money's come also in at the same time.

They've reinstated accounts that were previously banned like to Tommy Robinson Andrew Tate and others anyone has experienced XV might have noticed lots of lots lots of strange crypto scammers accounts all in all it seems like a risky place for most advertisers to want to spend their cash, but they're gonna take legal action against them just explain how they could.

Yeah, essentially but there is a and advertising industry trade body called the World Federation of advertisers and it consists of some of the world's biggest brands and accounts for about 90% of all the biggest spending on digital platforms and pretty innocuous things they get together they have meetings.

They talk about making you feel better and in 2019 what the World Federation of advertisers died, was it from this initiative called the global Alliance for responsible media and it was formed in the wake of the Christchurch shootings in New Zealand so if you remember this is a horrific SATA terrorism and the perpetrator livestream.on Facebook and it opened up the cheese conversation about what other advertisers doing not only appearing this content or Jason to it, but it's effectively monetizing it so the idea was to create this initiative to help advertise a stem cells away from this content and do fun things like 8.

So that's that was that 2019 all very vanilla all very innocuous, but then last year what happened was the conservative leads group in the in the in the house judiciary committee began looking into and looking into whether their activities had suppressed conservative media and the angles in a boycott conservative media and and suppressing their views because they're losing out and advertising Revenue and that investigation leads to the Explorer suits about this illegal collusion states of another company revenue that is illegal but equally people might say but isn't fair enough of advertisers.

Don't want to use a platform.

They shouldn't have to yeah.

It's so if you're on that site in in the US have a thing called the First Amendment which is all about your right to free speech advertisers do have a choice commercially and under the first amendment to advertise where they want and also not to advertise where they want and a lot of advertisers choose where.

Size based on where their audiences exit audience apparently plummeted and on the platform that performing and excellent necessary perform well for the competency might Google Facebook in a metaphor x can the platform make money and all the way through subscriptions for example.

It's a private company can must just bankroll it if he wants to his personal billion.

He's already done that I suppose so so so technically yes, they can try everything was the issue is the advertising made up 90% of effective advertising revenue so everything that they tried so far is a drop in the ocean to make up what they've lost they have tried to script they Friday got a new a agent called rocks off-licence data to other LM to train their data on that they've tried all sorts of you can pay to be verified nothing to make up the billions of they have lost we lost advertising revenue.

Thanks so much for coming in now.

We're going to talk about.

Prettiest investigations the people that stand between Media organisations and a costly lawsuits here at the BBC with recently lost one of the media world's most exceptional lawyers the appropriately named he worked at The Corporation for more than four decades which feels like the right moment to celebrate the role of the medial layer with two of Britain's finest John battle is head of legal and Compliance at ITN and full disclosure we worked together for many years hello John when I was the Channel 4 News you got me through some tricky situations and Jill Phillips is legal consultant and the little consultant and former editorial legal director guardian welcome.

Jill you just explain to be listening.

What does immediately where do the primary role of the media layer is to facilitate the truth to try to ensure that you advise the journalists and editors so the truth comes out on metabolic interest and you could turn that the other way and say actually it's the stop problems happening at

Also part of it so advising on Ofcom broadcasting code privacy law and copyrights and defamation contemptible all those come into the equation so with UK child sit in the editorial sweet we go through the report with Serenity clan lysing we discussed details.

I would point things out we have a bit of a debate and then we reach a compromise in the end and the piece of go out.

So that would a terrible story that's all is Sue talking through the kind of deliberations that you making that that regard you're right is it is essentially a risk analysis so you're looking at the the footage you looking at the commentary and and you're asking is there likely to be a complaint here.

If so, what is the evidence to back up our answer and I will say let's have the answer before we get the question this prepare for.

Litigation prepare for an Ofcom complaint so is to ensure that you are properly armed and ready to ask the complain because once the complaint arrives then litigation legal costs flow and you'll have to be in a position to respond so that's very much for the heart of it to be able to respond and to show that you're within the parameters of the law and you have good arguments and that those are the winning arguments would let me bring you in here from a journalist perspective the best media lawyers are the ones who work with us together stories overline.

That's what John battle was talking about.

How do you view your role absolutely second what John said I mean.

I just really going back to Roger law which is where I might rate when I first started at the BBC Roger was there and it is very sure that we lost it because he was brilliant what you did and I think.

What's going on from that in terms of answering your question is what he also had was a great ability very quickly to grass.

What was going on what the story was to understand it, but he had endless patience.

He had a very good questioning mind hang on a minute.

You say this that sounds a little lord to me back of my mind.

I read they're so I read that so are you sure about that? There's a lot just double-checking but also you got you got to be firm you've got to be clear can't sit on the fence.

You know the journalist hate you if you don't wear on the one hand and then on the other ones do that actually alright.

I mean I mean Roger law he was doing a job for 45 years in broadcasting you worked in print mainly.

I mean I know you won't the BBC as well, but in terms of printer.

How did the job change and presumably?

Rotating a red panda an unpublished edition of the newspaper where you was that have worked you literally did get to see the story on the page most of the time someone's you might be there and put your red pen so it and put it on this I can that would be the first edition would go out.

Where is you know? What that meant was that you did see every story that was being published.

Yeah pretty much everything that went in the paper may be other than Sports sports report would be seen and then suddenly the internet comes along and the volume increases.

I don't let me know if you can't possibly as the lawyer read every story they come from all directions.

They come at all times of the day and night so in a way that lead over the year is that sort of thing it's fine the lawyer will see it and the lawyer will do whatever needs to be done to it.

I can write anything.

I'm liking it because I know the lawyers there is the backstop in all of that now.

You have to rely on the journalist to say I think I need to talk to the lawyer about this and to go to the law that comes down to a lot more training and we used to John Bartley we were talking earlier in the programme about the police investigating the riots and the evidence they're using are you expecting the police to ask the media for footage and photographs and what are the medias rights in situations does immediate push back and say no it's a question of Janus safety.

We don't want to hand the turnover and the police may come to us.

So we can you hand over the footage that you've taken at the right up and down and responsibly very clear which is we're not going to hand over and broadcast material without a court order and there are Prince set up the police at 11 site and I searching for which protector material that has to be an indictable offence the mature must be some social value the news organisation needs to be given notice master.

Big interest in favour of disclosure, so we don't have a news organisation just had the too low for the police because they asked because it's really important to be independent.

It's important to be independent the police the police have their to do but our job is to report the news and also part of that equation Katie is safety of journalists, if it viewed that those filmy4 news organisations then mate.

I'll just be handed over for the purpose of prosecution.

That's going to increase the danger of those individuals, so that's why we ensure that we do not have material without going through a proper Court process and there is another example of animal or meet one of your Triumph John cameras in courtrooms big you played a crucial role in introducing cameras into court rooms in bed.

I played a little footnote because I did one of the first reports Liverpool Castlewood proving to judges that we could responsibly report the courts using cameras and it was now we seen that with the sentencing of the riots on TV and I think you even wanna.

We will Casey for that work and want a speciality as this is a big deal.

Thank you very much for saying that to my heart but you're right.

I think Amazon Court has changed the picture.

I think it's really important for the public to know what's going on in there courts.

It's important that the courts are engaging with the public is a understand issues to do with sentencing and courts bill is a what the role of the judges is is and the journey would been on his we've been quite a long time been 20 years and in an aching Weavers as it started out with petition for a pilot with you took part in in the court of Appeal 2004/2005 then moved onto filming in the Supreme Court which was allowed to film cos it was his connection with Parliament Vengeance filming in the court of Appeal and now has moved on the last two years to fill me in the centre of the Crown Court but there are many Rivers to Cross do I think it's really important that this is not the end of its the beginning.

Result with the film with the riots we have been sending and we've been up to film in some courts but not all course because it's only certain types of Judges that can be filled those are High Court judges and senior the Crown Court so you're definitely the pool of judges should be widened and also the number of course should be increased as well coroner's courts for example this week and unusual cover many different public interest or with that some of children and if there's a recommendation by the coroner's to watch it happen or some public interest judgement.

Why should that be film so we can hear the public on the television used what is being said and finally why not be able to film in the High Court as well, and this is a can UK Scotland has more film that does in England Wales and Northern Ireland as well.

So we're at the beginning of the road.

It's definitely not the end when it comes to the relationship between jealous and the police has it got better or worse during your career.

Do you think

Well, I think it's it's probably going up and down is the answer I mean prior to Leveson there was a lot of communication between journalists and the police and Levinson came along and basically said that that needed to stop and it needed to be formalised and just a bit Leveson Enquiry set up after the allegations of hacking sorry.

Yes, that's why you know that the spotlight on the number of things that one of the things did also share the spotlight on with the relationship between the police and journalists and they were quite a lot of the amount of weeks of information to the journalist by public officials and demands that the relationship should be formalised and there should be ok shouldn't be leaks to journalists by police to come in here.

Sorry to interrupt you.

Ok.

I think it is now recognised by the police that the

The media doesn't need to be reset.

We had the the Nicola Billy case where there wasn't really a distinction between Prejudice proper journalists and social media influencers all people just turning up salute Lee and that's what happens if you don't give the press information on you treat the press the same as people and social media influence what what is needed is proper briefings the prices to watch what's actually going on and in addition.

It needs to be recognised.

There is a real difference between a journalist the proper accredited journalist and someone just a social media someone's truck turning up to try to create conspiracy theories on to do their own thing so the police college of policing plus the national police chiefs council have now mate Media through the Society of editors the crime writers association and the media lawyers Association to try to improve that Rachel it because of you said this can't.

Because if you have if you have the vacuum the only people I can feel that you are social media influencers and people provided this information.

I just want to talk about slaps their strategic lawsuits public participation.

Jill there was a bill in Parliament it didn't make it through the wash up before the election and now labour on planning action on slap soon.

Just explain what they are and whether you're disappointed that made it through yeah, I think I think there's a amount of disappointment slaps as they're called abuse is abuse of litigation and abusive laws laws against journalists broadcasters there.

They're organisations.

Just trying to stop them publishing public interest stories and it's sort of deploying in an abusive way the rules of court powers because everybody knows how expensive litigation is our time consuming it is so you know but it was being used people don't care what the outcome is going to.

Just wanted to know everything down on stop it.

Please of people with people with deep pockets top journalists from printing because the unless don't have such deep pockets even if they do work for they need a wonder with a former prosecutor who understands Media law and down the street in the form of are you optimistic for change on slaps another France how do you think it's going to come out for journalism? I think it would I'm always thinking positive.

I think Keir starmer a media lawyer barrister in past Times and he does understand Media law and this is what he's going to find it difficult to move around he's going to understand the complexities and challenges that face so I am positive.

I think though.

We've now got three piece of legislation the first properly controlling the internet the online safety at the digital marketing and communications act and the media at which was the first three big piece of legislation that that control the

The internet will it be in see how it works out in terms of prosecutors in the courts and how often regulate we need to get on with it.

I think sometimes the pace of change them all is too slow so by the time.

I was actually implemented the app to bring me to bring in you Lord but we've got three new pieces of legislation and I'm sure this time will be looking to see how improvements can be made but I am generally optimistic that you are going to be very busy.

Thank you both John battle from ICN and Jill Phillips who was the former editorial legal director of The Guardian thank you both for coming on the programme but before we end at let's talk to you for many of us became the voice of the Paris 20-24 Olympics Andrew Cotter is the BBC commentator who is 1 legions of fans on social media for his witty commentary of the games here.

He is at the closing ceremony.

Well, are we ready for the excited to come together and we will welcome the elite level selfie taking at some point in the oven and Andrew welcome to the media show let's say hello.

We've had a lot of negativity about social media so far on the show unfortunate that your videos general he bought people a lot of Joy remarkable people would say who know me I the legal knowledge of the program has just dropped him, but I don't know what social media.

I'm so scared of social media and and reaction and and and backlash that I really stay away from her thinking particular during big commentary, Wimbledon

The Olympics in particular opening and closing ceremonies because you're dancing along a tightrope you want to to inform and educate and entertain the Old read the invincibles, but if you try and entertain too much are raised too much for an eyebrow certain things then people are going to take friends although we just have to I think the strong enough to know that ok.

There are certain things in ceremonies that deserve that are fibroids.

Have a little bit of a good thing on here.

So they can people at home saying that exact thing so it's but it's a balancing act and I think all of us in in broadcasting sterling common to become a little bit to install to what the reaction might be in social media you people who will other countries go to social media and see what you were saying about the matter very dangerous to go down and if you did after a ceremony, you would go mad, so I was told that I was trending which I can feel you had red we were indeed grounding for the closing ceremony.

Musical performances fireworks more than 200 teams filling into the Stade de France there was a wonderful campus Innocence to to the commentary and in fact that be cool for you to be the new new Eurovision commentator after that Normans any interest that would be absolutely terrible for everyone.

I think involved.

I don't go level of dampness in the oven and strangeness absurdity, but there's also the the seriousness we can go from the light to the shade, where as I think and Eurovision it's just entirely light anti-leak a that's the attraction of it so many people say it's certainly don't want someone like me.

Yeah.

I would find that incredibly anyway.

There's nobody better than that.

Terry Wogan Graham Norton Andrew Cotter but how do you prepare prepare on the night itself, so you're doing a few closing ceremony.

Do you have a skeleton script with thousands of facts to hand? Can you be caught off guard? How well for both the ceremonies in France with her difficult usually for the opening ceremony of getting a full rehearsal to watch in the stadium, but because it wasn't done in the stadium.

It was important.

We didn't know it was a real deficit of information on the apologise afterwards for that.

I'm so that was very very difficult because things come up on screen and you were saying 14 hours.

Is is going on here sometimes.

That's nice to the Natural reaction to that they closing I was going to say storyboard, but it's not because it's far more than that it will just say this section is about this and the Golden man will come down from the sky and by the way don't talk over this week.

If you don't talk people are going to be utterly confused so I love broadcasters didn't talk at all over the closing ceremony, so we decided that we need a little bit further explanation, but I think.

Theatre director behind it was quite pressures and protective over to know it's his his brain child and but it was yeah.

It's it is a huge challenge.

That's that's the best way to drive it, but I can you want to try and be entertaining without going too far is the art of commentary because if you was really take your jokes and your sense of humour about how to approach humour in your Coventry is it performance and how do you develop your own unique tone of voice that you have I think I'd like that.

I like the idea of it, so I suppose it.

Isn't it? Isn't it supposed commentary is it so I think you try and be yourself if you try and fall into the ratio of not just his ology but cliche of how one thinks one should sound then you'll end up sounding like Partridge in and it all becomes a bit sort of formulation and similar and all this is a sports come to you can hear me.

Sports broadcaster John Murray on the radio is the football correspondent and commentator brilliant that's just him.

That's just him.

I'm top to Coventry levels, but says he still maintains his identity so I think people who know me know that I am a little bit the world where you but a little bits of you observe things with the second attachment and you don't know is dramatic an amazing and fantastic in sports or occasionally have these moments which are ridiculous and silly or moments which are boring and that's why the dramatic moments stand out so you got to a thing become a little bit the tax from it, but is the best advice I could also and I'm sure we wouldn't be now no one with dirty now, but have you ever been told to tone down yourself sarcasm and wit and your sports commentators.

No, I don't think so no.

I haven't little a little feedback is given.

I don't mean that in a negative way.

There's a lot of people who are coming in as exports people to come and play beer never given a lot.

Broadcasting advice, but I think if you I think it's the way that the BBC One I want a lot of other organizations as well as the most some work is the way they tell you done a good job you get invited back the next week.

I think it's fairly obvious everyone should have their own inner control of the safety valve of knowing what not to say it sorted even though I don't really go training you are well aware of what is going to cause offence so you just keep the right side of outline.

Hopefully and we've got less than a minute left, but I got to ask because you went viral during lockdown for commentating on your dog's olive and Mabel where did the inspiration come from and did you get them ordered you record it on the hoof recorded on the hoof but then I would have some things up after I didn't quite work there so the comments are the the later ones became quite Productions but not came from an idea from the 1990s big train sketch with your commentary of Barry Davies Davies commentating on the wheel steering championship.

The idea that something very trivial indeed no silly was was given the sports commentary treatment, but then I stopped commentating quite quickly my dog's earlier on and what time because you cannot be parody forever there if you carry on doing positive and that is what you are a penalty commentator and you know you've got to go back to do Wimbledon of the six nations are the Olympics at some point so I enjoyed it and just outside door.

They're waiting to get in but I will be coming back on the principal less is more keep people wanting more anyway.

Thank you so much and you for coming on the media show that is all we got time for you can find all are programmes available on BBC sounds and BBC iPlayer rolls will be back next week.

I'm I'm going on holiday, which I'm very excited about but thank you to all I guess and thank you all so much for your company been great to have you goodbye.