Read this: “The UK’s wildest climate trial”

He is Brian Cox fellow, and he understands science and I don't understand it quite so much.

Could you tell us something about the nature of matter no ok good to buy a collection of expert and non-expert guess.

I'm going on don't worry taking a look at some of the most one thing in a scientific world with the Infinite Monkey Cage on Radio 4 on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week the Paris Olympics get on the way we're going to explain the complex Media deals to underpin the games several just stop Boyle actor Sabine jailed after they brought the M25 to a standstill and evidence provided by the sun was crucial to those convictions.

We're on the issues the story razors.

Will be picking out some of the most significant parts and what they tell us about the future of the BBC looks like Donald Trump and she has an instant impact on life.

We want to understand it all the memes and videos can translate into votes but we going to start with just or boil last week 5 protesters from the group with jail because of their involvement in protest that brought part of 25 to a standstill that was in 2022 with particularly interested in the story because a key piece of evidence was a zoom call recorded by the sun journalist Scarlett house who would infiltrated the group zoom call show just stop boils leader Roger Hallam setting out the plan.

This is a little bit of it.

You're in the whole part of the biggest disruption in British modern history.

So that was uncalled recorded by the sun journalist and the sun was later.

Thanks by the judge in the case well Damon Gail the Guardians climate correspondent the whole trial and he's here Damien thank you for coming on the media show you describe the trial and your reporting is the UK's wildest climate trial what happened.

It was like nothing.

I've ever seen before as a journalist covering court cases not covered quite a few it all seemed apart from aside from this remarkable piece of evidence from the sun this recording of the 3:55 making what was effectively recruitment call to try to enlist people to take part in this Protest the prosecution case ran pretty much as we have come to expect with these climate trial the defendant's didn't contest any of the evidence against them babe effectively did not bother to deny.

Roger Hallam deny that they're taking part in this processed and it was when the defence started but things started to get really interesting the defendant's decided that they were going to turn the courtroom in sight of civil resistance and by that they meant that they were going to extend their civil disobedience protests from the streets into the courts in effect what this men was that they were not going to abide by any of the instructions that the judge gave them and they were going to use the opportunity of being in court as a platform to make their views known about the climate crisis was that essentially then trying to turn it into a media event more of a media event and it was already as with the media so interesting to look at it through the lens of the media testers part of their raison d'etre and their strategy that they use is to gain media coverage for the process that they do and in doing so to gain media coverage.

The problem they had was that the judge has ruled that evidence about climate breakdown was not relevant to the case and so that put them in the court from the very beginning as soon as they started to give their evidence they wanted to give a case of reasonable excuse and to say that they were Justified in doing what it was but they did because the urgency of the climate crisis was so severe that any rational person would have done the same thing they knew what that meant when they went into the witness box to give evidence on their own behalf they immediately started to give evidence which the judge has ruled was out of order not person into the case.

How does your coverage work? So the judge ruled that they couldn't give evidence about climate change but as your listeners may well be aware.

When it comes to report in the courts in the UK we can report pretty much anything that said in front of the jury whenever the jury is not present we can't report on anything that happens until the conclusion of the trial dramatic things happening when the word present that you then couldn't report on well.

Yeah, so this conflict that then ended up finding themselves in with the judge.

Well.

They were trying to give the jury lectures on the meaning of the law and the reason why the reasonable excuse the judge was getting more and more I re and irritated sending the jury out instructing them to keep the facts of the case as he is determined that they were until it got to the point where defendant decided they would refuse to leave The Witness box until they've been allowed to give the evidence which they had come to court to give and give the full story which they saw the jury or to hear that you went there and you couldn't report this is when they started to give that full story which the judge to side of the Jewellery or not to hear that he would send that the jury out.

Order them to leave The Witness box they refused and that's when police started to be called into court and you could report that no no no that happened in this trial that you saw with your own eyes that was amazing thing about reporting it was that we really couldn't tell me fascinating trial and we're all talking about it behind the scenes, but we really couldn't tell the story is finished and I was going to try and you get a great sense of the story from being in court because you here all the evidence that relevant to the case you get incredible detail about what happened.

Who did what to whom and when which is so hard together as a reporter otherwise at the police and effectively done your dog for you the Witnesses are doing a job for you and you're there in court.

Just faithfully taking it all down and writing it down but with this case.

It was it was so complicated because the jury were being sent out.

I had to judge at which point were the jury.

No longer able to hear what was being said in the courts that I could safely report what was being said without putting us at risk of breaking the law with the protesters were you when I get in contact with you in advance, but they were going to do with a contact with a chatting to you in the corridor the record while it wasn't setting what what how did that work so we had a sense that this was going to be an interesting trial we prefer not to know the full details of what it is the process of going to do before they do them, but they did say to us come to this trial.

It's going to be interesting it was outside the court that a supporter of these defendants said to me that the plan was to turn the call into a site of resistance.

Joe Studios Jack Chapman who is producer of the recent channel 4 documentary Chris Packham is it time to break the law which grappled with some of the issues that you're raising Jack the programme? Thank you very much indeed now this program for people who haven't seen it was highly or third.

It was centred around Chris packham's perspective as the producer of it.

Will you setting out a clinic to build an argument to do an impartial piece of reporting? What was your brief the brief? Was it was part polemic and investigation so anybody knows that he is fully behind the climate movement and believe the science in believe the government not doing enough so that that was going to his starting point in that regard.

It was polemic.

He was coming advocating for more action but assuming you believe the science.

It was then investigated investigate investigative in terms of

What is a legitimate if you believe a science you believe where to go and sleep Sleepwalking into pockets questions in parliament about your program about weather channel? What should be making a program that contains this type of polemic around this type of issue.

Did you think it was reasonable to ask the question? I think it's because tomorrow.

I mean it's not you know just in bed in the Northeast movements.

You know hundreds thousands of people who are kind of you know acting in this way, so I think it's you know the thing Channel 4 has as a command it to reflect what's happening in the population and you know is it time to break the resin is a kind of justify question is something I locked you for asking this program.

You spoke to Roger Hallam how was it the set up to you? How was it to record that conversation? Yeah? It was great.

He had a broken leg at the time so into the missus house, but yeah, yeah we got his contact details to.

Can press contacts I had a quick conversation with them beforehand a bit of research into his kind of strategy was studying a PhD at Kings and civil disobedience for 3 years.

So it was just went to his house and have quite a kind of free-flowing conversation was the producer.

How do you approach that when I'm not 4 minutes saying they have identical for use but they clearly have a shared concern about the environment.

How do you approach that as a journalistic exercise when it's a conversation between two people such as Roger Hallam and what I mean.

I think you you don't shy away from the fact that you know they have things in common.

They weren't going to discuss whether the Debate around where the climate change is real.

It was going to be very much.

You know you are you know Roger is he was one of them to set up just up.

I will and insulate Britain he is one of a kind of figure heads of the movie.

And when you're making a programme of this from a particular perspective you'll be aware that there may be some people watching you a very sympathetic to Chris Packham but there are other people who get infuriated by process that may disrupt lives in one Way Or Another how do you build those perspectives in without undermining the premise of the program which is that it's one person's perspective well.

We went for a mandated to look for a range of yous so you can be interviewed Lord Peter Lilley who is a climate look warmer.

So he thinks just appointment with Kelly and ridiculous nothing you refer to me as a cult interviewed Andreas mum in Sweden who wrote The Global pipeline book you know he advocates for direct action against Ireland for structure, but he was actually quite critical of just a point in their Tactics you were there.

When just up or protesters painter an office building in central London and

What directly involved but you knew before hand it was likely to happen? Is that a way of putting it because you've spoken to protesters as a journalist.

How do you handle that kind of information if you get yeah? I mean I wasn't there personally for on that suit but don't you know the way it did the protocol that we set up was just up while you like to be don't want to be actions and they they would give us a very broad sort of day actions might break the law universe action to break the law.

Yeah.

Very carefully had to convert Direct Gardens from Channel 4 about how to approach this so we had no information about the specifics of what the action would be beforehand.

We just told to turn up at a place at time.

I'm giving a few days notice.

I could get a camera crew together, but we didn't know anything about what's going to happen until we can derive the interior right on the day that is Jack Chapman

The program he produce for channel 4 documentary title Chris Packham is it time to break the law I just want to put this in Contacts now though and talk about how the media impacts the Debate around climate action.

We've just been talking to you about exactly that but bringing in Meera selva the founder of the Oxford climate journalism network Broadley for you Maria hello.

What do you have how the media covers just of oil? I think there's two issues here which is how you cover climate climate issue and how you cover process and are both really important because Wolfgang blau and I co-founded opticlimate journalism network recognising that climent the climate crisis is more than something that can be just by the climate editor of the environmental editor of any news room.

It's now so fast that it has to bring in politics transport social policy economic policy and economic journalism and we've had.

Exactly absolutely months ago and and so the key point here.

That's the point the adjustable protesters are really making they're saying the climate crisis is coming for all of us.

It's going to disrupt lives what we doing is giving a taste of this so I understand the framing of the issue.

There is so pretty sure that it's usually disrupted.

The people's lives and nobody likes the disruption.

I think there's a problem with journalism at the moment in the it is not seen as a neutral party in many of these arising issues.

It's seen as a journalist ursinus active siding on one side or the other and I think both the kind of the actions of the undercover journalists can reinforce that and then possibly the kind of close access to the movement like just also reinforce that it would argue that if you got there safe, but in reality of undermines journalism overall and if you think about the climate journalists in mini.

Comment Direct attack for their work.

I really you know one of the most endangered when they come to kind of reporting you.

Can you can be really pernicious and undermine the credibility of journalism and we just talking about the specifics around the trial that he can't and the joining of those five just I boil protested and the sun's involvement in it.

What what did you make a role in The Trial undercover journalism needs to be done with very clear ethical frameworks and clear sense of purpose of why you're doing it and it's usually Justified when you're being given access people are institutions.

You would not otherwise have access to whether that's prime.

Minister's well families and really high closed institutions.

It's hard to justify infiltrating civil society that we could just log on to this journalists.

You could just log on to the zoom call and participate means that they're not sealed spaces when you considered the Met police.

In the 90s with them and social movements and there was a huge scandal about this betrayal of trust and I think you saying that the sun shouldn't have done it and I do think I mean I'm not going to be to be getting more and more I write with the climate protesters because they're disrupting his courtroom so understand why that happened but they need to be spaces you can talk about climate the climate crisis and if you can't speak about them in the media in court cases in Parliament people speak about elsewhere on private messaging in other parts of the internet and that's off and where you get a huge amount of information polarising coverage.

That's really disruptive well on the sun's decision to carry supporting this notion.

We got in touch with the sun and it sent us a comment saying it always been a job of the Free Press to expose wrongdoing the planned disruptions against the law Scarlett houses investigation into the just stop oil.

The protesters received record prison sentences the process resulted in chaos with drivers experiencing huge delays middle name is vital appointments at massive post them and public services the judge said what are the reporter and the newspaper did entirely the right thing by passing recording onto the police as they have crossed the line from concerned campaigner to Fanatic we fully standby the right to publish the investigation holding groups accountable for their actions.

What do you think to that think it's I think if you're holding that group account for their actions.

That's excellent it be good to them so that also holding the fossil fuel industry accountable for their actions governments accountable for their actions on climate change as well.

I know they did writing editorial saying we're a nice picture of the climate crisis.

We think this was that exposing wrongdoing and breaking the law and civil disruption as long as that kind of accountability pieceworks in all directions and I should add that as well as

Sending us a comment we did invite the journalist.

Who did this report Scott house on to the program, but she wasn't available we're gonna leave it there.

Thank you very much indeed me a silver founder of the Oxford journalism network Jack Chapman producer of Chris Packham is it time to break the law and Damien Gayle the climate correspondent of the Guardian thank you now get a turn to something different because without another major upset common Harris will be the Democratic presidential candidate in the days since joebiden.com asset withdrawal from the race her internet campaign has been embrace memes ideas or jokes that are shared in a dotted online.

We're going to discuss whether it is going to help her win over younger and disengaged photos in a moment first of all have a listen to this time.

I used to she wouldn't give us a hard time sometimes and she would say that as I don't know what's wrong with you on people.

in the context

Of all in which you live in what came before you so that was common to Harris at here to explain that then much more is vsphere and American tiktoker and political advocate who posted summaries of news and politics to the 3 million followers of the profile under the news desk under the desk news.

Sorry V thanks so much for coming onto the media show just first of all before we get into wide across as I can you just explain what is going on at clip, so what's happening in the clip is coming letters using her Theatre way of communicating things to people but everyone through metaphor she often stories of her mother or try to make something complicated a little bit easier to understand through these viral clips and advice giving I get my understanding of this is that previously carmella's laugh for example has been turned into a mean.

I've been very things going viral coming from the sort of anti Democrat side and now then.

Outside seems to be embracing it just took me talk through that so I think that what you're saying is The Separation of Carmela from the Biden Administration from Joe Biden in particular.

Joe Biden became less popular figure especially amongst young people giving his decisions in the way that things have been on folding in the Middle East and now the camera is Evil 2 Step outside of Battle of it and when her own campaign.

I think people are feeling a little bit more about her up against Maga in trump, then they were when she was sorted couched in the Joe Biden grilled.

So yes the Conservatives hear the Republican party the mega party likes to make her like to make these things make her look like she doesn't know how to speak well.

They try to present her as a bimbo or in an intelligent person and now we're seeing young people and the left take those things and errors and turn them into memes and positives and we often hear I mean we were talking a few weeks ago when we had our election about this being the tik-tok election it turned out not to be will often hear about.

Yeah, politicians trying to be popular online as lots of reports about how she is and how new is is it I would say popularity online is extremely meal is earliest 2 days.

No and one thing to note is that she herself doesn't have a tick tock.

It's not her trying to appeal to the tick tock tock if you will by making her own content this content has been made about her and she sort of giving like a gentle funny.

Not do it but without completely diving in I think it's actually a mistake by committee made when they joined tiktok and started making your own memes as soon as starting in yourself.

It's auto loses the fun and for her campaign if they really are leaning into this Galaxy Note 3 days, but it looks like they are what might the risks be for the campaign of Lena I don't think there are any risks right now for them leading into a one thing that you can feel here in the States is this new sense of Unity and optimism that we haven't seen at least in my entire life time in a lot of.

Ordered my have said the same they haven't felt this kind of Unity and an Enthusiasm for and it it exceeds even that I've made a Barack Obama there is organising happening.

There is she raised to like 100 million in the first 48 H which is unheard of she's a 91% approval rating providers reporting she said 91% from league of conservation voters we know environmentalism in climate action is something it's super important to young builders and she's been on the right side of that for her entire career even as the attorney general in California starting the environmental Justice unit the first of it's kind and excitement for her.

She does project you that I'm personally excited to see our leader.

Maybe a little bit more of a pier to Keir starmer that I suppose that just in comparison with blue in their 70s for her and I think it is this idea of hope and I mean I was talking at the top of

About quite your huge following 3 million as a tiktoker you clearly have access to a huge number of young voters the kinds of people that politicians are absolutely desperate to read all the policies and beating down your door to get their message out.

Why your platforms yes, I'm doing the last election we saw this when we can say that the deciding Factor and Biden getting in and I think now that tiktok if you just virginity but rather more of a citizen journalism placement in activism, please or going to see that same in 2004, what kind of things are they doing an approach new Direct are you giving advice? How does it work so definitely giving advice, but my Michael has always been to empower our people to make great content so often times.

I'm trying to get a full refund and sore citizen journalist to feel confident enough to make your own content and we can point them towards her records and factsheets stuff like that.

I don't personally do anything.

Four candidates directly but I'm sure that we will see them on TiK ToK attempting to tell their their history on environment and abortion access on lgbtq issues all the things that you were hoping to get more than 50% of people under 24 years old registered to vote and I think that's really the message that I'm going for right now is please register to vote give it a chance because we have low voter turnout and what's your assessment of what works is it about appealing to them on the issues that you know they're interested in.

How does it work? I think it's definitely dentist if you think anybody who comes and tries to be like hello fellow kids like look what I'm doing and I've always been here it totally flaps so I think if you're authentically online you presenting a message on your record in a way that respects the audience appreciate that they are intelligent can take in complicated Concepts and you don't try to make everything like a dancer a joke because you think that's what are interested in your do very well as a kind of it and I think we're going to see that from Connolly

I don't see her personally join them platform, but I do see her leaning into acknowledging the memes about her or maybe even having more of her speeches go viral on the platform, but mostly right now.

It's been used for is creating unity and hopefully people weather kind of what people think that the selection and our seeing so many first-time donors a surgeon registration to vote and even excitement about wanting to go to the DNC there are so many creators on tiktok worth trying to get tickets to go to the Democratic national convention to see her life, but he is great having you on the media show Freesat stay with us.

Let's bring in Mimi Alaska postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Bath then maybe you research.

How memes impact politics so it is great to have you on this particular item on the media show I suppose before we go any further given that you study them, how would you define a meme?

Understandable definition would be units of Culture that can replicate has been coins by Richard Dawkins 1976 so it's not a new concept means and satire and political satire existed for a long time but won't music in famous internet as the internet started we got the means and we been hearing about how many memes are centred around the house at the moment.

You've looked at lots of different countries and different politicians.

Is it possible to see a pattern as the which politicians become the centre of memes recently seen something which is more on the personality of the politician.

So right now.

We live in a spectacle so means are helping with that spectacle politics is not just a traditional form of getting trading policies now.

You need to become a celebrity need to be to be charismatic and you need to have a personality that back to you.

Otherwise.

I won't be able to do anything you need to be authentic.

We as as a generation in as we are so which I thought the story is not having any substance so I think right now.

I'll politicians are trying to get through the means to appealing to a new form of communication that stairs away from the traditional for journalism media and creating their own.

But I'm interested the you say there's frustration the more traditional forms of Media don't contain sufficient substance because some people might have a perception of memes that are they good for they tell us things about how we perceive politicians or policies, but that they don't contain an awful lot of substance for my research all of them said the same thing the mean is just there a beginning you just have a little piece of the image a little bit so that's it's your job to find.

Why don't you just get a little aspect of what has been discussed.

It could be really humorous.

It could be really so it's up to you and your Media literacy to find which is the truth means can't educate.

But they can still there any free Wednesday opium towards something and some of the work that underpinning the analysis that you're sharing with this is your focus on Romania and I was surprised to learn earlier.

I Confess and apologise.

I didn't realise this before today that Romania has a particularly strong meme culture tell us about that and why you think play MIA particularly turns to memes when people want to pass comment or learn about politics 89.

We had the most communist Revolution out of all the all the former communist countries disapprovement with the government use the politicians so but having the chance to create your own.

And having a pirate to meet up in the morning not traditional form of politics is what kind of through this this this young the younger generation to stand up for beating because there's a huge disagreement between the the mainstream politics section and the section within the mainstream politicians, so we can't we can we can see inside the meeting political parties, but you have to be to become your own form of political actors you can become the new that's a influence you can become someone who can suede sell paint off of me to stay there, please.

Thank you so much.

I want to bring his beer back in and

Followers from under the news desperate just a question to you by about weather.

Is it right that means traditionally have been something that have been successfully used more by the right than the left.

I think names are the the new version of political cartoons which were also used in Invergordon used for propaganda.

It's a thing that sort of makes you think it's easy to digest is the clip of information.

It's really top of the news final kind of stuff.

I think often political cartoons and memes are there to lightly bully people in some cases, but what were seen in the Connelly hearth Keith is the UK artist actually Charli XCX calling her saying camera is Brad has spawned this whole meme culture of Carmela brand names which shows how much is capture the culture in the UK that they are taking it something that may have been used historically to criticise or to satirize a political figure and you using it to debunk myths about her to make her cry.

To show the truth included in their culture is like it's very interesting and do you think they work is there evidence? I know I think you work with the Democrats and the 20-22 mid-term elections you did a video with Barack Obama did campaigning and memes an impact.

They're absolutely same as with any other of warm like songs are back to the political cartoons something.

It's relatable to people they can immediately can I get an idea what it's about the entertained by a enjoy them and it's something that the public can also make for themselves.

There's not like a professional authority and me making anybody can do it and that's what's funny about it makes other people feel included and their give them a chance to go viral 4th year whatever fun thing they came up with and I think that's part of the fun of memes is not just a shame ability but how democratize the process of making a meme can be my mate.

What about you? Is there evidence out there hard evidence that this works that mean campaigning works in elections.

It's a tight pointed down.

Because you can't really quantify votes and how they got to from the memes to the station because we have seen memes are online but the number of the people are glowing up for you is not good, but we have seen a lot of shows we have lots of people commented on politics.

We have seen a lot of people creating an engaging with me, but yes there is a disconnect between going to doctor about means can be there to educate but at the same time.

I believe that true that education you get more and more dissatisfied with what you have to say that's kind of creating not disconnect.

So you have the news presenter called the information into short.

Messages and keyboard using themselves, they probably think whatever because they have no one to vote for ok depressing day to end on and politicians clearly think they were going if not they're heading I don't know whether they do they don't but I'll put some money in to it.

Thank you so much for coming on the broken both of you me me let's go from the universe and American tiktoker and from under the news desk which they set up themselves talk about the BBC's annual report it was published on Tuesday if you didn't follow it when it came out.

This is the yearly barometer of the health of the BBC according to the BBC at selfin.

We get details on lots of things within this annual report including the the BBC's finances and also whether it's meeting a range of targets both staff and also its audiences now Katie you of course the BBC media editor so you were covering the story when it.

Out there's how many pages over 250se quite a few days crunch.

What did you pick out as being the most significant usually the annual report makes headlines over BBC pay, but this year it was actually for Strictly Come Dancing at all.

The genus were interested in that actually took up most of the off camera briefing with the BBC director-general and others so we got the apology that people listen to this and watching this will be seen making headlines the apology of what happened may have happened on on Strictly Come Dancing but we were there for this big toe as you say 256 pages and there is a lot of detail inside the BBC would argue that it's report shows it's at the heart of national life to go to media brand in the UK it's the district show that is used by 95% of adults each month and it's the only UK media brand in the top five for young people the beauty remains the first place adult turned to the news as trusted in passionate and accurate and there was a lot of talk yesterday.

How the BBC Essex Esprit negotiating financial and market headwinds in a time if you've changed for the media so by putting a lot of emphasis on the more positive sides of it as you would expect so there was a session with the director-general Tim Davie with a group of journalists including yourself.

I'm curious.

What were the questions the journalist wanted to ask the head of the BBC where were they looking for maybe ask about Strictly Come Dancing the thing when breathing went on more than it was supposed to think it went on for an hour at least half an hour's on Strictly Come Dancing and then there were questions around licence free things that I'm going to come onto here because there's quite a lot of sobering stuff in this report are both looking through this and there's a huge amount of detail on the bus and I different jobs were looking for the longer-term true that could be affecting the BBC not just in the next year or two but through this decade and beyond and conditions are definitely challenging and then that's one word that came to mine but I suspect others could spring to mind too.

BBC except that the conditions are challenging but if you look you drill into the numbers, so how's the BBC finance mainly through the licence fee and 500000 fewer households bought it last year than the year before and that is continuing a general trend so it's 2 million down on 2020 just for last year that means 80 million left in the BBC's coffers that would be expecting if those households haven't no we don't know why people aren't buying into the licence fee it could be that they died they moved away whenever I'm not making a I'm not making a judgement on why we know is it is happening there was always a lot of Promise around the idea that the commercial side of the BBC so there's a money-making send the BBC that isn't the public service side that start to make more money to help put into the BBC's budget least we know squeeze budgets, but actually I mean we never thought that was going to be that signify but according to the annual report.

The commercial arm as you made less money than it had the year before because of the different different climate, so that is another sign that you know it's not quite going away the BBC would hope is a whole thing around you know if your engagement listener engagement the BBC missed.

It's target for 16 to 24 year olds only just but 71% used to be on average per week of 16 to 24 year olds and under the BBC One brand.

It's at flagship brand it now only reaches half the nation weekly and the BBC has announced yesterday more job cuts 0500 more will go by 2026 and 2020 and train with some people listening and hold on isn't it inevitable that to some degree the BBC's audience shrinks just because we've all got so many more options whether it's social hear from some of the big tech firms weather is a video via YouTube whether it's the big streamers which are the majority of them based in the US Netflix Amazon and so on just given the range of choice.

Even if the BBC did everything right that would be a tough environment in which to to expand and which to flourish in just the BBC facing these sorts of challenges, but you say it's inevitable yes, it may be inevitable but it still financially difficult and these are about the pressures of as you say fragmenting me well.

That's really intense people having so much more choice.

It's just looking like it's harder and harder for the BBC to persuade people to come to what it has to offer but one thing has changed we have a new government a Labour government is that better news for the BBC people who have been observing this will have watched how the position in the Optics around what the conservative government appeared think the BBC was certainly difficult and we know the government throws the licence fee for example for 2 years at which meant that real time to cut for the BBC the mood music around labour.

Somebody did ask that I'm fat Tim Davie know why you smiling now that you've got labouring clearly the position is not too you know being like the cat that got the cream and indeed.

We don't yet know what will actually do because there's a review going on in to the licence fee at least you know the charger and ends at the end of 2027 and they have to decide how to find the BBC from then but all the mood music out of government out of the government is much more positive and Lisa Nandy the new culture secretary was your touring BBC and Salford recently with Tim Davie the director-general so at the moment.

It's very positive to the BBC and the government but whether that translates into from there is no money as we know so that's not listening if you want to see the BBC's annual report if you just search for it, you're very turned on the BBC website if you want to see me right ups of the BBC's annual report you can get that through the BBC News website also on the BBC News website causes BBC sport and over the next few weeks there.

Recoveries there of the Paris Olympics because they are all good here 329 events across 19 days.

It is needless to say a huge sporting event but it's also a huge midi event to not just because of the practicalities of covering it there were going to talk about that but also because of the broadcast deals that underpin that coverage but that's not the practicalities Nicole Arabic is reporter with the letter keys with us from Paris hi Nicole you're very nearly there.

I wonder which of the many different sports are going to be covering so it's very long days.

I'll probably be getting there in staying at the swimming then you just outside Paris through the finals and all the meat.

Must be tempted to stay there and how do you prepare for those 10 or 14 days? How do you get your head sufficiently into the detail of all the different competitors? You're going to be watching you? What do I typically cover a full-time at home is college football American football so very different in even if you pop in on Olympic sports Olympic swimmer in the world championship.

He wants a year but really it's about going to trials and qualifying these checking out comparing everything's the top time of the top competitors.

I'm going to be covering the American went but obviously there are a lot of International Airlines of interest in the brothers or friends out there.

Who were the stars of the calendars macro storylines like it's going to be time for years is it? I'm interested that you say you you primary report on college football in the US is there a particular challenge when I'm like with college football where you'll be producing sports journalism for people who know the teams and know the players incredibly well.

Is it a different journalistic challenge when you're writing about a sport and about stars within the sport Who with all due respect them may not have a profile outside.

Sport the totally different approach.

What does she think about her with interesting about the most boring events in the swimming pool Seven gold medals it is trying to get it stories like that the story today about basically the French Michael he's training with Michael he just for the people.

Well, I should say you're definitely succeeding.

You're making me to want to watch lots Olympic swimming.

Just listening to you.

I'm interested you mention the stars of the pool.

Do you get access to them when you're reporting when you're doing these 10 to 14-hour days.

Can you actually speak to them? Yeah? You're a fine which is already at least after they complete the compound area is a couple of minutes.

Maybe 3 minutes or brown they will have a press conference as well later in the evening, but that's pretty much.

Things with people on the phone as well, but it's about capturing the emotion and especially after learning about the human interest and always drunk or falling.

Just short and telling that wanna call.

I'm definitely going to be reading.

Thank you very much indeed for speaking to me as you can you remind me of a British sports journalist always remember you said there's a few years ago said covering the Olympics is an extraordinary privilege because you're essentially seeing athletes having either the most important day of their life or one of the most important days of your life.

So maybe one of the worst well.

Maybe one of the words but they are in a moment that matters and all full amount and every person you're interacting within that space that more money.

Lightsaber good luck, I was in Paris last weekend in the whole of the centre of the city seem to be blocked off by crash barriers.

You can't get anywhere you can't get near to spend most of Parisian seem to have left if they can it is such a grump about the grumpy French way, but I'm sure as soon as an incredible opening ceremony starts going down the saying that everybody is going to change their mind but we have as we just hearing for a printer support also here from the broadcast as a Max Miller is a Spalding tech reporter at broadcast magazine and David Haye's is business deadline nice if you could just start with you.

Just talk to us about the broadcasting rights for the Olympic how does the International Olympic Committee sell them so it's split up.

I will come out and say well more specifically for the UK or the US cross around the world and broadcaster come in the make the beds and generally person with the highest bidder win, but it can also take into account things.

The Promotion that broadcast Philippines where how to cover it and the number of people who they can get to watch the sport as well, it's not just money best of individual sports or packages all the sports.

We're the IRA see you're buying the whole Olympics so you're getting the Summer Olympics the Winter Olympics the most recent cycle would have been 2018 through 2024 and when Warner Brothers Discovery or Discovery back then but the summer and winter olympics for those 6 years entirely for Europe who who's in quite those rights.

Yes, so like I saying just send so from 2018 Discovery boot it before that obviously know the BBC had it and they showed everything ok and when Discovery came in that ended effectively after Rio 2016 and it meant that they have to go straight with Discovery in order to get their rights which means.

Example of this Olympics coming up one of us Discovery it on Eurosport be showing at 3800 hours of live sport raised BBC will have it on the 500.

So there's a big gap now because of that the production around it all the events and then feed it out every how does that work? Yes, so the ICC has its own in-house forecasting team basically called the Olympic broadcasting services and they will feel more the live content so all the sports news from by then then that goes out to the broadcast as well add on their own studio shows their own into and commentary in a can of the more creative side of it.

I guess on the end and I'm going to be loyal to the BBC and say presumably if it's on the BBC they're getting more viewers than it is if it's on Discovery Channel yes, yeah anything.

Do a lot better viewership wise is difficult to compare between Olympics and because of a time zones for example Tokyo last time was not in a particularly good time zone keeping you up to watch that watching on the BBC 36 million watching linear 100000000 watching 100000000 watching your tablet and watching TV that count as two people and Jillian people can I please watch to that compared to Rio is a lot less 45 million but again they had a lot more coverage and Rio and the also had a lot more better.

X only working with in the US just to give us the American perspective days hello who's bought the rights in the next and we know how much they paid for them comcast nbcuniversal renewed their deal in 2021.

They paid 7.7 billion and

22 MVC actually goes back no to Barcelona 92 they have a long-standing relationship if you want pics on acquired the media company they decided to maintain that tradition and so they've made a long-term commitment to the game is a lot of money, but presumably they think it's worth it.

What are the risks and rewards for broadcast as Max can probably attested to answer because it isn't down to strictly two readings points of course time time in linear ratings are nearly what they used to be particularly coming out for a couple of rough Olympics due to covid in Beijing had a strange violence because the Chinese government.

I think everybody could agree so the benchmarks are different because they were in the priest streaming error, London Rio

Free streaming numbers and people that tune in now, where can I get to compare the data to say but if you talk to NPC universal executives they were they monitors in a host of different ways, they're really using it for hospitality for brand activations for Talent deals and if you look around if you are flying into Paris is no major film producers to Abbeydale universal.

It's you know.

It's Saturday Night Live town is actually in Tahiti covering the surfing competition.

So they use of synergistic.

Play as a can of maypole to wrap so many their corporate initiatives around and so they insist it's worth.

It is profitable even as a discrete or they just feel it is a good luck.

It's in the DNA of comcast pick up on a couple of the thoughts you just shared with us because as of course you.

Will know there are new sports in the Olympics this year breaking of breakdancing and some people call it kayak cross and others and not just that some of the broadcasters are bringing in new Talent as well as but some interesting surprising commentators.

Here's one of them people say that's right Snoop Dogg is to quote him on the scene in Paris that's a promo for NBC Olympic coverage.

Help me out here today.

How's this happened to connect across Generations across cultures go as white as they can this remarkably versatile and flexible and

I know where he does connect across Generations on my various audiences, so you know they're putting in the work.

I have to say it's been part of the Olympic trials coverage.

Just really an hour ago that I just completed before coming online with you guys before the media show and don't worry.

I'm not what did he say? He didn't lose passionate.

I would say about emotion which was a bit of a surprise about a representation the idea of blazing a bit of a trail and introducing new potentially new viewers to the experience in Canada record watching Muhammad Ali carrying the torch in Atlanta very moving moment so it's probably about on a talent but presumably birthday and Max it's also.

Play about how the sport is bundled up for particularly younger audiences to consume because some of them are going to watch H and H on the television so much do they also the ISE also sold bundles of clips the right to push out a clip on YouTube or X or tiktok or whatever it may be yes, why that situation in Europe at least one of those Discovery have the rights to it and tell you just kept as well and I'll share that out as well.

Please basically Slater the deal with YouTube actually quite recent in the last month or two and as part of that.

They're showing out highlights on YouTube showing both and closing ceremonies open YouTube and they've got interestingly.

They got a bunch of influences from different countries across Europe going to go to the games and film content both part the sport and also kinda cold around Paris and they just just as we was talking about the opening ceremony.

It's on Friday it's going to be this huge Media's better go, what do you know what we know in terms of the production challenge?

Celine Dion no commentary of intrigue about will look like with a nose feel like I just posted the story of the States Embassy is going to get the first hour commercial-free are getting sponsors to kick in for that very invested and even at the time zone Lonely Nights in the middle of the day here in the States intern logistics the particular aspects of the opening ceremony.

It is a bit under under avail, so I don't really know too much about it as you can and reliable once that does happen and the Optics and the spectacle canneberges.

It tends to get people into the attic on and then I think Maxwell tested in the UK but there need to be great performance but the details.

Will be revealed in the in time.

Thanks very much for joining us that days of deadline Max Miller of broadcast and Nicole our back from the athletic if you want to listen back, please do all on BBC media show goodbye.