Read this: Trump shooting: the journalists who were there

He is Brian Cox fellow, and he understands science and I don't understand it quite so much.

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I'm going on don't worry taking a look at some of the most one thing in a scientific world with the Infinite Monkey Cage on Radio 4 on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 today will hear from 3 journalist who were there when a gunman tried to assassinate Donald Trump renewed attention on the nature of America's political discourse and the medias role will explore that too.

I've been reporting on Strictly Come Dancing as new claims about contestants experience is emerge.

With an agent whose clients have appeared on the show and one of the journalist whose reporting is driving the story now that the Euros are over we're going to hear about the relationship between Gareth southgates team and the journalist covering the campaign but the journalist covering Donald Trump's rally on Saturday found themselves covering an assassination attempt we're going to speak to three of them Haji on alone.

When is a white house reporter for Bloomberg Gary O'Donoghue is the BBC senior North America correspondent and Anna moneymaker is a photojournalist with Getty Images thank you all for coming on the programme.

I just wanted to hear from all of you first.

Just on where exactly you were on that day when it happened.

Let's start with you hadriana, so I was standing among the crowd the crowd you have been waiting for several hours and in anticipation of hearing your former presidents and what was important was speaking with the people around in the hours leading up hearing how excited then and then of course when we heard the shots fired immediately everyone duct and I was there to speak to them and hear from them here the immediate reactions when it also place in the BBC where are you?

We were set up just close to the exits where people were we come out from one for the shooting started and people started running and we were there without car we were actually just about going on there on the BBC world service and you can actually hear this on the BBC world service recording the shots being fired live while we're coming to us and so we will We Won't pending in the way many of the media were in on the riser which is a big structure that often built at the back of these events so you've probably stay with me sort of wood and metal where the cruise will stand we weren't we won't pending like that.

So we're able to grab people as soon as they came out and we're able to hear the I mean that the sheer range of anger horror shark frustration do wildeman that the the rally cars were exhibiting and we were able once we done through recovered and

if we were able to talk to them and hear all those emotions and get their experiences within moments of the thing happening and Anna moneymaker.

We're going to talk about the incredible image that you took from looking at that image it suggests to me that you were very close to the president very close to the podium.

What where exactly were you to get that shot.

Hi, I was with an airport Agatha's who normally covers the walk on for the former president's remarks and usually apple photographer that are there.

So you know we don't stay in the bathroom for the first like 10 minutes of his remarks and so I was just in the bath for photographers and when it happened Anna how quickly were you able to send your photographs back and we will you sending material back to the museum as it was happening how's work?

So, I think the internet like 3 minutes or so from my first player to win the president was taken off stage and right after you was taking a statement to the US we went into a that was behind the stage just you know groundwork controller secured and that's when we always something.

I send pictures with my eyes, but I think during the but I think during the internet.

I didn't text my wife.

I just like having on you can send it.

That's a mobile hotspot that you were talking about and Gary how quickly will you reporting for the BBC

Weather today we were actually live when the shooting started and we got on the ground and we start we carried on talking to the to the world service and we have something typically and telling me when you're on the road, you have a single day live you nowadays and that sort of box size of a backpack and they're getting a lot smaller and they have 8 or 4 SIM cards in them and they allow you to send you know HD video life straight back to London and so we were up the whole time as we call you probably being up airline was live and that's why once we got up and stars interview people and how BBC output was rolling on the event I have my produce to Iona handsome your grabbing people pushing them in my Direction I was live on here talking anyway, and I've just bringing them into the shop and talking to them and many of them.

That moment where you were alive and then this was happening and as you started to realise what was happening will come back to who you talk to you afterwards, but was your first reaction just keep talking to the moment what you worried about your safety and your team safety.

Yeah, of course we were absolutely terrified when we knew it was shooting straight away and there was a lot of it, so we were we were frightened and I think you know in the moment when you realise you're no longer in danger.

You haven't been shot.

You're alive then that sort of the the professional think it's 10:00 and you you know immediately this is a huge deal and you know immediately you got a huge job to do and bring you back in from Bloomberg what were your feelings in there in the moment? Did you did you worry about your own safety or why you turn off that will I find that situation was going to be helpful when we heard the shots at first everyone dark deny that with my first instance as well.

I was worried for the safety of those around me and of course.

You know the former president safety so there were so many different thoughts going through my head and of course you know we're here is reporters our job is.

How old is story and of course I pop up as soon as I can and I need to go to the service point.

I had lost service I had it right when it happened.

I was share widely with my team what I had just heard but in immediate aftermath about I lost service so I had to you know with my notes.

Just keep an eye on to what I was hearing from people what I was seeing and when I was able later to get that service back that was when I was able to feed That reporting into our story and of course we continue to update author of the night as we got more information and hydraulic Gary and Emma you all three of you work for very large media organisations Bloomberg BBC Getty Images at that moment where it is clear very quickly that this is a story of huge consequence.

How do those big organisations communicate with you as individuals is there a risk that you get dayle used with Communications in.

And you're not quite sure who deal with how to respond to all of the different request and how does it work?

I'm I texted my editors about what was happening and once we were starting to send pictures that was texting my editors and I wouldn't say nothing like you know I wasn't like a group chat with a lot of people who were at like currently in the what do you like Google where are setting up to prepare to cover the RSC and they all your working out? That's fine all works in things of the average for this coming about this kind of it.

That's happening, but then once the shooting happened.

They all lights are doing and like m.

All my pictures are coming through and all the captioning with you know ok checking on me.

So that operation like this to like the rally.

I just explain the rnc is Republican national convention, which I know hadriana.

You're also covering and Gary Isis

recovering to so many of the journalist who were involved in covering the assassination attempt of now moved to Milwaukee in a covering Donald Trump and of course many other Republican politicians who were there Gary tell me about your experience and the experience of your team who were with you in those minutes after this started.

How was the BBC requesting to you that you share your different reporting?

Just for the record.

I'm staying Pitstone probably probably will stay over that is absolutely certain.

So what was what was happening because we went started rolling on our News Channel 4 coverage of this.

I am stood there obviously with mic on like I've got now and at peace in like I've got now.

If that is very earpiece was at the rally.

So my primary communication is with the what we call the gallery which is the control room in this case in DC that sits opposite through the glass from the presenter in the main studio near telling me need to come to you in 1 minutes.

I'm telling them got some guests come to us now.

They're saying this this carry on we want to talk to you on your own for a few minutes now hear the presenter name and things like that said there's a constant communication in your ear even when you're talking.

To be able to listen and talk at the same time and then that is the nature of television news but at the same time Iona is talking to people in The Gallery and people in London because there are other requested as you rightly say the BBC the future organisation we have multiple multiple different outlets going on at the same time not just the rolling news channel that we have fixed bulletins both on radio and television we have a huge digital output on our online services, they all need and want material and what what was happening during that that evening with the quite a lot of what I was doing on.

There was being versioned if you like for those other types of output so for example.

They would listen to an hour if I was asked a question by the present about what this mean from America the digital people can listen to that.

They can sort of write that up and put that up at the live post.

On the 9th page and so inessential making the most of the material that you're getting from you a single source on the ground spreading it as widely as possible the backs of yours that got the most attention was an interview with one eye witness, we're going to hear the story behind how you met that man in a minute, but first all that turn to a picture that Allerton from Getty Images you get one of the defining images of the day was of Donald Trump duck down surrounded by Secret Service looking to the floor with blood across his face.

Just tell us about how did you get it?

So, what was the shooting happened and all these one person he just came into the Buffer and I was like down and alarm for me and I like to go in the opposite direction so that I wouldn't get into like his way so I want to be like in stage right side and taking pictures of the nice all the swarm of Secret Service agents like making a Shell around the for president and I do not have my white lines, but then I like to see through one of the agents legs like in space space until I pulled out my mum glass for my 7202 pictures.

Did you know you've got it? Did you know that was the one?

A I just want to make that picture to prove that was ok, so that was sort of my intention that picture and then it's been like that picture absolutely one of three images.

I'd say that comes to define the moment the others being trump face first held a lot which people might remember by hp7 Richie and an image taken by New York Times a dog nails and appears to show the bullet passing Donald Trump in an age of such a video consumption the house that we live in still do still cut through photographs work.

Why do you think that is?

Yeah, absolutely I think it's just you know.

Where is the history of the time? I will just last week.

I can I get pictures from you know like the 60s and 70s like still playing at the end.

I mean it's just wild about it until it important to have that so that we can get all the angles and Anna if you were describing some of the images that millions of people around the world have looked at bed talk about a video clip.

That's been what millions and millions of times.

It's you Gary O'Donoghue from the BBC speaking to a man called Greg and eyewitness to the attack this is.

Part of an interview for 2-3 minutes Secret Service is looking at us from the top of the barn and point that roof.

Just general like this and messing you know why trying out your came from that Gary it's an extraordinary interview and extraordinary account tell us how you came to be speaking to Craig

He was one of the people that was was there and I only spoke to him first.

She said we need to talk to this guy we put him on here and it was in my mind was talking to me.

I was wondering is this to be honest I was wondering is this some kind of fantasies because this is just to extraordinary what he's telling me hear about what happened.

Just seen the shooter.

That's one thing but having spent several minutes trying to warn the police that he's seen a guy with a gun on the roof and to be honest I have to take to say this lightly but I'm a blind reporter.

I had no idea what Greg look like now.

I know now you pretty striking looking guy holding a can of beer.

I don't know any of this and I just wonder it is a different world whether I should have been prepared to take him seriously but I listen to him.

I tested what he said I got into.

Things I wanted to sort of verify whether he was consistent because we will live with him.

This wasn't pre-recorded.

We would like people seeing if he could have done a lot of damage if he was talking rubbish.

It could have been inflammatory damage, but I kept probably because I wanted to see his consistency and frankly he kept saying the same thing consistently over and over again.

That's what I realise.

This is incredibly important and this is going to be something that is going to make a huge amount of news and of course that's what it did it snow in can you talk about the fact that you went back to see if he was consistent because I noticed my expect lots of people watching the interview notice that you ask questions back at him again as if warmers going back over what you've heard and you're saying to us actually that was quite deliberate.

Is absolutely deliberate I wanted to see his consistency I wanted to check that I'd heard right as well, then I wasn't somehow you know being kind of brains and hearing things I wanted to convince myself that I've heard what I heard but I also wanted people just to see him saying it and repeating it and describing it and getting slightly different words each time but painting the same picture over and over again because when you just when you focused on the meaning of what he was saying it was a bit is that gobsmacking and you know it was it was something that the moment in time.

We just realised was a huge deal and had huge implications better my we didn't really know time is a very difficult thing in this moment.

I can't really recall how look at how long it took us.

I know that the trump wasn't dead so I don't really know when I did that interview how much I knew about the state of the president but I definitely knew that you know this was clearly an assassination attempt to that point we were using those terms and for this guy to come and say I saw the guy who did it and I saw the police not listening to a telling them that he had all those flashbacks those previous times when the president's JFK and all those things in you think this is going to be quite important in the narrative moment in history from Bloomberg back in here.

Just to talk to reflect on at the media predictors with media.

Obviously I wondered from your experience.

Did you experience any hostility from people who were around you to the me?

What are the press more broadly? Did you say anything from my personal perspective the people that I was talking to both in the lead-up to the the event that took place as well as in the aftermath.

They were all phonics by what's going on.

They were so confusion but they spoke with me and I was able to capture the reactions that that I had gathered.

I didn't personally experienced that but I know that that has the experience and what about you? Did you experience or see any hostility towards the media?

No, I in right after the present laughter.

We were again in like I like it behind the stage and then went back to you didn't interact with too many people in it was pretty and that was pretty empty, but we are able to go back to my car's.

What about you Gary can I just jump jump in there? Yeah, I mean as I say at the beginning with the whole range of emotions and definitely some angry people really angry people that was so angry when I was live on on on on on TV he came stood between me and my camera man and it was a big guy physically between me and the camera and normally in those circumstances what a TV gallery will do is I'll cut away and move on and do something else to try and

But they carried on rolling.

I would I did is I walk forward and I put my hand on his arm and I talked to him live on and said this is what we're trying to do.

This is when not disrespect what's happening.

We're here.

We're part of it.

It's really important.

The public knows that someone has tried to shoot a former president we're trying to and also to convey how you feel about it and everyone who is here feels about it now.

He was properly properly angry and and it took a few moments and it was all on there, but eventually he moved off.

I don't think I persuaded him, but he moved out the way and we we were able to carry on there are others who came by and said some things that I'm pretty Peterborough on on a show like this, but they were very angry as well, but they're also a whole range of people who would just quiet who would just shocked to her absolutely by.

I wanted to talk to her interview two people father and son he's a farmer than 2 miles down the road from this place their first ever political event the boy called teenager too young to vote and his first experience of democracy seeing people carried off on stretcher zandos into ambulances and you can't help at that moment in time one of the things.

I did that night was Katie was and I never really do this with people on there is I put my hands on them physically when I was interviewing I put my hand through their arm put my hand on their forearm and you don't you not meant to invade people's personal space but I wanted them to feel my flash and feel my heat because I accidentally know that it wasn't just some dude in a suit from out of town.

This was someone who is there with them and really wanted to hear how they felt about it, and I'm glad I did it.

I'm glad I did that.

Well, we're glad you come onto Media show to to talk of us talk to us.

Thank you very much indeed Gary and Anna and Adriana we're going to leave it there but we really appreciate you coming on to share your experiences Anna moneymaker from Getty Images Gary O'Donoghue our colleagues from BBC News and Adriana from Bloomberg towards the media from the rally.

I'm in later some trump supporters claim the Media help create a climate where violence is inevitable because of the way it covers trump and let's remember as we previously discussed on the media show there's been fierce criticism of the medias coverage of Joe Biden as questions of groan about his age at the intersection of politics and the media is under intense scrutiny and people hit on the programme who can discuss that with us Megan McArdle is columnist at the Washington Post and Jay Caspian Kang is a staff writer at the New Yorker thank you both so much.

What's the time Megan if I could start with you after the shooting the Republican senator Tim Scott claimed? It was Aided and abetted in part by the corporate Media incessantly calling trump to democracy fascist or worse.

What do you make of that claim? I think they're actually we don't know what motivated the shooter and I think it is remarkable that is so many days after this happened.

We still he seems to be something of an Enigma and I don't think in general you furthest a lot in the left over the years and I think the one thing you see in the media coverage.

That's different is that a visit if it had been buying we would already be drowning in hot takes on the right wing ultraviolence how something trump said had inspired the shooter even if we didn't know yet.

We've been a lot more restrained this time and I think that's reasonable.

Play Pink that we know when the right used when electricity is with the right.

I would say look Bristol shooters often have just very strange Motors if you will get for example the meaning of Gabrielle Giffords the guy who shot her with a paranoid schizophrenic.

Who's made up session was grammar.

If you will get John Hinckley who shot Ronald Reagan he was trying to impress Jodie Foster where these people with fractured Minds often fixate on politicians, but it intersects with reality on their very strange angles and it is not part of a letter writing for people who are the guy who shot it a bunch of congressional Republicans he was a burning 21820 action but I think we don't know and I think that it is responsible when the media used to do this kind of speculation before we know the responsible and politicians.

Do it would I do think is the even others?

A giraffe line between something anyone has said and I also think that you can't use this to shutdown legitimate criticism and say what you criticise this person and now someone has taken their and gone and try to hurt them that the responsibility lies with the person who is committing a soul not with the media or anyone else including Donald Trump who makes no statement is made as to ask you whether you think the media has gone too far at times, but not necessarily that suggested.

I think Donald Trump is he is extraordinary.

He has broken one of normal that should not have been violated.

It was totally appropriate to criticise that I will say but I think that the media for the past 8 years really especially during the trump administration decided that the issue that the solution that was for us to abandon our old norms of

Activity and trying to maintain neutrality and really go after him and I think that was a bad decision not so much because it causes assassinations, but because under trust in the media in undercut social solidarity and it left us actually in Last of the position to make the case against rock because people just took us being part of an actor is rather than people there.

I got the reporters.

We just heard from making the first draught of history pick up on that with Jay Caspian Kang from the New York AJ welcome to the media show I wonder whether you think it become problematic the sections of the US Media accosting themselves as the Guardians of democracy and in their eyes that involves some form of opposition to Donald Trump Meghan about that.

I think that it was Manchester station in 2015 2016 like the Washington Post Meghan

But I say democracy dies in darkness you had MSNBC remake itself as an oppositional network and that was very good news outlets read all these places did very well during the trump administration and I think that in the end, what it did was that traded pick a lot of anger on the right.

Yes, but I also think it created a monster lot of democratic voters this expectation that the media actually was an instrument for the Democrat Party and see that perfectly right now.

I mean anybody who steps even slightly out of wine gets pilloried on and it's not just some Twitter effect.

It is really just I think that there has been no just staring it gets immediate in general on both the left and the right at this point and that Pam I think that was because I'm a decision that you know they would be partners in that they would say things.

If we don't apologise as president, this is the most dangerous president of all time on those things might be true.

Maybe they should be sad, but when the business model is built off of that then it I think it's quite a lot of scepticism that might be warranted just that I've and understood this correctly what you paid to be arguing is the dividing line between the media and politics is all booked disappeared in some cases and in the eyes of the consumers are both politics and media the two of become completely blurred.

Yes, I think the decision to me and that type of position was was definitely conscious however.

I think there are a lot of people work in Newsroom to believe very strongly on the type of journalistic Africa yeah, there's people are just doing the jobs.

I think that that most people in us newsrooms feel that way but I do think when you know the business side of it or perhaps a publishers position live.

Publications that way then you know how big is going to pay attention to it.

Just bring it back in on that and the question I suppose of trust them in does do you think the press that she believes more and its role as a democracy and the public actually does look and say you know for example trust in the media is at an all-time low it's very clean the Polo and I think something that I have been now.

Can you try to communicate to my fellow journalists 3 years is what was happening not actually much more about a broad range of issues.

What was happening for the last roughly decade was the people looked at the institutional power that the media which by the way was already sleeping and what if I could just deploy that power and I could use it for a good cars.

How amazing? Would that be and the problem that they didn't understand with that trust was explicitly.

I'm we just tell you what the facts are now.

I'm looking into it.

So I am not part of that but even there like there is an expectation that I'm going to be forced to be fair that I'm gonna copy that provide camera evidence when it's available and what people were doing was abandoning that nor they were sticking will editorial aside in the middle of quotes.

They were editorializing.

They were looking only at sources from one side and they felt like if we do this.

Look at the different to how much better than could be put in fact all they were doing with spending down decades of accumulated trust and they were getting nothing in return for the end result was not that we managed to make trump not happy and we met him to the end of the rest of the things to put on your do the end result was that people just took us as progressive activists rather than people who are in the business of providing facts to to an audience.

To make up their own Minds Megan from that point J if I could bring you back in here.

Not long ago on the media.

Show we were discussing how American media was covering questions about Joe biden's age and at the criticism the first criticism from some of Biden supporters that was coming away of the New York Times and other media institutions for their coverage.

Can we draw some parallels in how the media coverage of this assassination attempt is playing out and how the coverage of biden's health and age are playing out.

I think the most striking thing about the coverage of the destination at 10 to set it feels like now.

I like 4 days 5 days after it took place that we've already moved on in the media and um I think that part that is because attention spans are short or whatever but I think it on satisfying explanation but more than that I think that here in the United States that when a shooter is.

Play the profile that this young man dead which is a disaffected.

You know loner in the computer.

Is then we can put them in the school shooter cattle and Co Llanelli decided really nothing to say about these types of things and then we just don't move on from it and you know involved mastiff of children or something like that.

So I think the most reading about that is just that you know at least from what I can tell just to somebody who falls in news.

Obviously, what's in the news media is that the assassination attempts orders? There's lots prostitue over there.

We can have the end it then.

Thank you so much.

Jake has been came from the New Yorker and Megan McArdle from the Washington Post thank you very much for coming on the next on the media show we're going to talk about Strictly Come Dancing it's the BBC's most successful Saturday night show Since The Generation Game but there are stories and questions swirling around the probe.

And the format Katie before we go any further.

This is a story that you've been covering for BBC News just explain to us why we're turning to this now or many people will know the Strictly that autumn schedule people is the programme where celebrities are paired with professional dancers the face each other in a Knockout dance competition think sequins and glitter ball and a lot of over emoting.

It is supposed to be about the middle started to go wrong in October after the actress Amanda Abbington withdrew and week 6 of the most recent competition by may stories were emerging about claims of her dance party teachers abusive behaviour and teaching methods which he denies the Strictly professional was left out of the lineup for the upcoming series and an investigation in the BBC is ongoing then much more within the last week or so came claims of physical abuse and bullying by another Italian dancer on the show gratiana di prima.

He was partnered with the former.

Love Island star and documentary presenter Zara

And the BBC was showing video which Zara McDermott described as incredibly distressing gratsiano is also now no longer part of strictly and on Instagram he said he deeply regrets departure and said his training regime may have been affected by his intense passion and determination to win and discuss all this time during we're joined by Katie Hind to show the resultant editor at the Mail on Sunday welcome to the programme you of course broke the story that gratsiano have been sacked by the BBC following those claims and misconduct against Zara McDermott what can you tell us where you got that story because everybody's been chasing the Strictly story as far as I can tell so it started at the weekend before actually when I got wind that there was another complaint that have been made.

There was another issue following on from Amanda and Giovanni that's candle so I didn't have the name of the dancer.

So I think I'll write what I know.

That's why I did that.

Throughout the week and then yeah late Friday night Saturday morning.

I was told that he had been sacked for gross misconduct.

Why do you think the application didn't come to light sooner because clearly it's been a story that people have been looking out for some time this one actually wasn't a story that people looking out for some time this came from nowhere actually so what we now know is that a complaint for maize during the series last year.

I'm on Zara's behalf.

She didn't complain to the BBC at all.

She said yesterday that was because she feel the backlash public backlash possibly in the wake of Amanda Abbington and the backlash that she she says that she's had so have been told complaint weren't made a right time.

There was a conversation about language, but certainly not yet.

Yes no absolutely so so so so they were complaints there was born twice and I was told it the same that it wasn't physical.

It was it was there work complaints may he was warned and it will stop there then the staff on these products off of Strictly on a video of physical abuse and have you seen that video you know I haven't seen that video and that was then taken to to the people doing the investigation into and that's where the BBC active very swiftly and he was fired for gross Honda and in your evidence in in all the messages.

You've done is it your son? Is it you'll be going to culture of toxicity or overly high standards on the programme.

What do you think is driving this if if of course you can say this is just isolated incidents and it doesn't happen to most people would be unfair to say that every every every person every celebrity that takes part in Strictly has this experience because that that is not what I hear.

This is the truth in that was genuinely do I know people that genuinely have had a wonderful experience and it was the BBC's now introduced in the supporting welfare offices celebrity down the Dancers do you think that they had handle at the BBC handled it well before the that announcement and will destroy a line in the Sand I think festival has the line in the Sand when I when I got that email yesterday.

I was ok this this makes things much better so that email from the BBC up until then actually the present.

I think these this because you know there was an ongoing investigation.

So there wasn't an awful lot.

As as generous as the newspaper press probably that you left very much for the dark so I mean yes I last year in Krishnan guru-murthy and his partner Lauren Oakley at Borehamwood library.

Where they were doing the rehearsals and I arrived and there was a publicist from the show and once we left it was just those two there for the rest of the day.

It was found that a little bit strange that they would just be left there and that was that that changed yesterday everything I should say that the BBC has said that that how long do with the show but we aren't aware they've used the term gross misconduct themselves alright, OK that was that was that was rude to me.

I'm interesting maybe that people breathe with the Mail on Sunday sitting next to you is Sue item from the talent agency night out and thanks very much indeed for coming in so you've had clients who have gone on to.

Strictly when you were considering whether that was a good idea for them.

What thoughts were you and your mind when I speak to my experience working on the show found that you were with the number of people I have yes, and I've always felt the duty of care.

When people are on the show really was exemplary they really looked after people when they were on the show and that really was and very caring very careful however what I do question is maybe the entry point which I think they may need to re.

Look at it when I did the show last time did the show when we decide are you turn to work with clients for their been together a competition element and Mike Bushell have done it before when and you and I

Together make me the decision we know exactly what we were going into we know what it actually means that the Relentless training the hard work so we went in with it with my eyes Wide Open with both with dancers.

We know how hard it is.

We know in a short period they've got to turn people that maybe some have a lot of people have been to stage school there a bit more prepared others forgot to turn them into the purpose of professional dancers in a very nonetheless.

They've got to treat those contestants with respect and all of the things that we would you Angela Rippon all your other clients my push your Morris from other agents or other contestants saying this isn't everything all our experience was the body know exactly what how to take care of people to look after people and everyone was behaving properly.

Obviously Whatever Happened since is you know I'm not here to discuss but what?

Is the they need to possibly look at the entry point how people are prepared for what it actually means some people last time gave up their day jobs.

Did it alongside their day job? This is terrible hard work and what we found was the BBC creates quite rightly on the one hand an illusion of the fantasy of this world that the rehearsals are all happy and well.

Yes, they are but at the same time their hard work and what we found was that they don't want anything to the fact that there might be you know this is toss.

I could you give us examples of Angela Rippon for example wanted to give him or text your door new wants picture and the BBC wouldn't let you know we would buy you put it that way obviously don't they wouldn't say that would allow but what happened was that one of the shows about 5 minutes before she was due to go on here.

Cut her leg and it was the most amazing machine straight away.

Everybody was there the wardrobe by the medical and all but the dances that were going to be on after her had to be brought forward because they need time to prepare Angela and this was really the whole team professional brilliant people coming to bed very quickly so within five minutes Angela was ready to go on that stage in front of the public and nobody knew except those behind the scenes.

What had happened and can we talk about that well, she was at the time for his behaviour and she wanted to include this because it was such a wonderful Story how everybody had come together and and made this happen professional professionals and we were told to scale this back.

You're not to mention that you cut your leg and there was blood and we were why not because this is absolutely showing every.

The BBC at their best this happened, but we were encouraged to play down the fact that she herself not to puncture the illusion and the fantasy and I felt that was to control and the public should maybe would like to see some of that because now it's a shock to understand that when they go to rehearsals it is tough but the fact that it's tough and all the contestants will stay open in a positive way that stuff Katie hindson.

Driven is driven by the fact that this is a competition which evidently the professional dancers and the contestants would really like to win.

Do you think that competition is the source of some of the problems here? I think if you look at the beginning the first 7/8 years it was much more of this journey to watch awful journey, and I think as well you have to have different types of people.

Don't you not every celebrity goes on there.

To win you know some of them go on there wanting to you.

No have had an experience and a glitzy dresses so I think it's getting the getting the right partners for them because certainly I mean what's being said to me by various people in the showers at perhaps.

They shouldn't prepared jovani.

Who is a real sort of winner the man who wasn't quite so all the pain is really important because I had the most fantastic partner, but he was a very good teacher and I've spoken to her about this and she knows show me the others that they will be able to dance but you've also be a good teacher is a separate thing and she was she had a good teacher in the majority of them are so where are these things have gone which is a great pity for the public.

I think the BBC will get this right.

Of course.

They will get and I should just leave him to sleep to put the BBC's perspective because Kate Phillips

Director Unscripted said well we know our shows have been positive experience for the vast majority of those taking part if it is a raised with parcel with made aware of inappropriate behaviour will always take that seriously and act and concerns that have Arisen have been fundamentally related to training in rehearsals and the sizes steps they've taken over the chaperones for example further strengthen the welfare and support in place for everyone and I believe they will do that.

That's why I do it again.

Thank you very much indeed coming in that situation from Knighton the talent agency and Katie Hind the showbiz consultant editor at the Mail on Sunday so we talked about Strictly Come Dancing we talked about The Assassination attempt on Donald Trump we can spend the last 10 minutes in today's video.

I show talking about football and the media is as I'm sure all of you listening are well aware of the euros at over England lost to Spain in the final and England manager Gareth Southgate has said he stepping down and we're going to leave the pros and cons of Southgate Tactics against Spain

Are the programs but what can we know about his approach to the press and the relationship between the England camp and the media that start with John cross Shih football writer of The Mirror chair of the football writers Association along with Jacob steinberg football reporter for the Guardian John that begin with you going into this tournament, how would you categorise relationships between the sports journalist who is in Germany and England can pretty good.

I mean I think I think to give it some context.

I do think I was southgates approach to the media has been revolutionary.

I mean it's I've got a strong word absolutely honest.

He has always been trying to be good, but we've never particularly cracked it.

I don't think and part of the issue.

I think down the year for England was feeling a weight of expectation on the shirt and I do think that has been a genuine issue so much so that basically players are very secretive kind of trying to keep it back everything.

Within camp and it's very much of them and us issue to such an extent that always remember Euro 2016 when the sort of players among stem cells have this dance competition and they would discuss it was good at darts.

I mean you know there is a very defensive very of hands and get her Southgate when he went into Russia in 2018 organised dance contest between show me that's for the difference between talking about 1, I mean honestly we carried on into I think it probably probably I'll give that this time you think he's been very good.

I also think the FA have been incredibly good.

They got the best team in the business, so I think actually the relations have been good going into it, but he had such a great one before the tournament.

I do think though that people were being a little bit circumspect some criticism of performances, so I think we were fair but objective I was going in.

Good but Jacob when your reporting on England are you thinking in the back of your mind if you ride a story that's not going to go down well with the players or with the management potentially that could affect your relationship them in your future access potentially but it's all about how are you? Can't stand by the criticism is fair.

I don't think that Gareth Southgate was ever think it was always the case that it was something that was personal.

I'm just decide that.

He might still take a different but I think you're always welcome tough questions another away from them one of the things Mark to be compared to a lot of Managers with that the answer to everything as long as it was that song as it was fairly booked him.

He never thought to put anyone down at never put this down in public down when he was holding three things behind closed doors.

It was it was very tiring that way so there was.

John says that that sense of a two-way relationship was very productive with the players as well mean one of the one of the things sometimes can sort out the runway.

Is it maybe get a low rating the paper the marks out of 10 at times, but generally speaking the players with us over the course of the month in Germany was very good as open as they were in 2018 at your expense of the World Cup in Qatar never really got any sense that although there was Chris's and probably from outside, but they were never really any different with us to bring you back in is it right that there was things sourdough bit because there was some anger around the leaking of Tactics and is that something that you would ever think twice reporting on it what the Tactics of the team? I think it's to do with the battery or something.

You're always taking she with leaking because it's never tell me legal ways it says to me that they think someone's picked up the phone says here.

Story is neutralise contacts and you try and be as well informed as you possibly.

Can I mean you know honesty I've done so many years and got the team so many times as well informed as you possibly can and so I've never really thought about it too much after saying have you thought about I don't want to report that because it might mean the team to win would be something that's in your mind not really I think the Gareth Southgate is even gone and record it in the past and look there's nothing I can do about that.

I'm not that particularly bothered about that may be that was in state of mind going into this tournament different managers have different perspectives on giving the team away you so much so that when Sam Allardyce took charge of his one and only came as England manager he actually because he realised that this was thing that sort of occupied our minds he actually emailed as on the Friday before the Sunday game the starting 11 in formation to basically saying the Keeper

Get the team each and every single time one Earth is a journalist wouldn't I want to be as well informed try and get as much information as I possibly can and then in the show with the region is this great story about some kind of in 2018 when Steve Holland was holding his kind of a notebook and that sort of snap is caught this and basically I mean shame up frankly from my perspective shave on during this who thought I we shouldn't publish that I mean.

Can you imagine that is a sort of you no political issue that basically political journalist wouldn't take that and exam a ridiculous.

Sorry and Jacob just picking up on what John was saying there about leaking and it's not leaking it's people picking up the phone.

Is there a culture of leaking or what John would call picking up the phone with in football is more different from the other journalistic professional experiences for the rest of us have

I didn't say that.

It's pizza time difference from acute medical journalism from what I understand a bit of people who work in in that side of things.

I think that is just it's just the way that it goes all the time trying to find out different parts of what's going on as you know the big thing with setup is always, what's the team going to be the day before the game finding out so it's just it's just the way that it goes and the Gareth Southgate has always been kind of realistic about the way the way was the best things to bed tonight think it was just thought more reflection of his state of mind that the kind of paranoia.

I think almost they got themselves into the way that was going that they were angry with the three stories just for the for the Switzerland game, but generally speaking it happens in club football international football right now with the tournament over go straight the transfer window end.

How much of a never ends for football journalist that's for sure I must ask you about the floor around Gary Lineker and Harry Kane at those be listening.

You didn't follow her this Gary Lineker in his podcast was critical of one of the England performances earlier in the tournament Harry Kane was then asked about it and reflected on the fact that criticism from former players can impact some people within the squad and then Gary Lineker said I guarantee whoever that was referring to whichever journalist to ask Harry Kane about this was probably critical of England's performance themselves he goes on they do it to a stir the pot me because they're too scared to ask a question from their own cells Jacob you think that was reasonable from Gary naked say that sun sports journalists are timid because they're worried about burning their relationships with the two not at all.

I hold my hands I can say that I was one of the journalist to on the Saturday for the day before Harry Kane came out and spoke to us who are Sarah Bowen about.

That was Gary Lineker dad said on his podcast questions right pretty much this about you.

What do you think about it? I'm shocked he was surprised and a little bit of a joke within the camp.

It was definitely something that was already been spoken about people around me around the world would bring up the the comments after Denmark game that was made on August song on television very very strong criticisms made of the team that day and there's a different times when it's done by former players former England Defender your defending asking about that and the way you did John was your view of that.

They were Gary Lineker's criticism of sports journalist or sun sports journalists.

Yeah, I did it run into Gary Lineker look right outside but no I didn't agree with you at all.

It was interesting that he did it on his own podcast in the away from the BBC you know.

For Gary and what he does but I do think that you know if users that terminology I mean listen you add wine glasses clinking in the background.

It was a valid story and you I think it is not even ridiculous to suggest that we shouldn't ask high-profile players about high-profile presenter and I should also say the last thing in the world you want to be his down being critical.

We want the Indian team perform well on the best country of all is when England played well.

Thank you so much for John Cross from the mirror as well as the football writers association and Jacob steinberg at football reporter from the Guardian back to this edition and all editions of the programme on BBC sounds, but for me and from Rose that is it good bye.

Bye bye.