Read this: Papers, politics, power

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This is the media show from BBC Radio 4 today we're joined by 3 journalistic heavyweights Jeffrey Goldberg editor and chief of the Atlantic Caroline Waterston editor-in-chief of the mirror and Andrew Neil chairman of The Spectator group and now a presenter on times Radio 2.

We are not going to go short of subjects to discuss from business models for journalism to Donald Trump

election debates and much more will also be asking about AI and journalism and Kate in a topless from Business Insider is here to talk about that because Katie of a story you've done search results from Google's new AI offering just give us a flavour what sort of answers.

Have you found?

So Google recently rolled out a new feature that they had a really excited about they've been promoting in their big yearly event where we certain type in certain like how do I change the light bulb in my refrigerator? It'll give you an AI result instead of just a link to relevant search results and I believe this is not actually rolled out in the UK at it is in the US and has to do some data privacy stuff, but it's not on every resolve.

It's only on some and p.

Very quickly started noticing that what are the answers but just frankly bad or wrong or wrong in a way that would actually really funny self example people discovered that if you ask the question has a dog ever played in the NBA the national Basketball Association the dog is playing.

Through the same with the national Hockey week people that if you asked how many rocks should I eat per day? It would return resulted said it's recommended to three rock spa day at later.

What led you to write an article titled Sometimes to save the internet.

You must eat glue that we're going to come back to that later.

Thank you so much for you for the moment.

Would you use in your day-to-day work? No not at all.

I don't use Google either but do you use to find information DuckDuckGo and would you use it? It doesn't leave a trail so much better search engine than Google are you working for Google and it takes all your data and then pissed as you with what?

That doesn't do that individually whites ever your whole footprint after you've used it that you can get with child and tasty things.

I think he is is all around us actually in and it's something that we have to be aware of and at the forefront of but certainly I think we will we need to be aware of that.

I will do a look at the mirror champing at the bit to use AI to help with their reporting although writing as a tool.

It's just one of the many tools that we used but in terms of other journalism and journalists, you know we're not using it to to bring exclusive content which essential is what where where abouts at the middle so that we you know we have child and tasty done the we will continue to Thailand test actually ok well.

Traditional Media for a minute because the first election debate happened last night.

I head to head between Rishi Sunak and Keir starmer on ITV I wonder if those of the and reversed how do you view this debate as a media event was pretty bigger things about 6.5 Peaks on the night 2019, but that's on the night more and more people compared to 2019 are doing catch up and watching online.

That's got apps and Sons I think that's pretty decent as good as anything else that time I think it's bigger than something called Love Island at that time which is not about politics am told him most watched programme on terrestrial TV that night as I CV11 is interviews for the BBC in 2019 by Mr Johnson of course in bottled it.

We were getting the same rating as EastEnders could get so there are times in the political calendar when even on.

Time there is a decent audience for politics and Caroline for you.

Is it still working at format? Yeah? I mean I think everybody was was keen to see what was going to come out of it.

I think me from from the middle point of view no machine needed a game-changer.

I don't think he got that and yeah.

I think everybody's talking about it this morning this morning and now regarding the Fallout people who haven't well haven't Returned toward any news or seen anything all day with this but nobody else will have that claim virus using at the label is a working families.

Tax is by £2,000 ladies calling it a lie.

Andrew you certainly focused on this and your program today, but it has you know that whether it is got coverage.

You know is coping with this kind of contestants and differently these days.

We used to say she's got legs and it's a sign of a successful the Debate was a bit scruffy.

And was a bit too rushed and one of the things.

I've never had time to do was actually interrogate Rishi Sunak claim that families will be £2,000 worse off that heavily scrutinised just resend and remarkably kids tablet with ages to report it anyway.

They already had the letter for the treasury saying this is not a treasury document.

Why did you not produce that and say I have a letter from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury and this is not a treasury document as a result he had legs into this morning.

It's still going this afternoon and you're if you're a TV and you don't do much politics on ITV you have set the tone of the election for the last 24-hours and you coming out of America think you said this but I think yes in the end, but I think you know we're covering it fast and faster perhaps then then we would have we were just eat print newspaper it would have

Play sleep had a lot of covered in tomorrow's paper in terms of the fall out, but obviously we go on live with that already and we published a story about what we just been discussing and if you want the only person who didn't have the debate on your front page this morning many of them.

Dead you had it on the front and one the one I saw it was on the front, but it wasn't top left.

It wasn't it was on the ramp not not huge the way it was on the other pages.

I think we we we debated earlier on in the day and obviously through the day.

We we fell yes, it should be covered.

I think everybody was interested in it.

We felt that are front page plus was rightfully theirs when it's the 80th anniversary of D-Day and certainly from a from a human and from from emotional point of view in terms of what we believe our audience wants that that was the choice but certainly we covered it and we we cover.

As we felt was right for audience and Andrew you mentioned earlier you interviewed in the past election and some people don't have that format last night work that well and actually in a the focus interviews would have been better and what's your view on that's what your name for doing I like the boots and ITV cures for being the first author and become you know we've had debates in modern politics since Richard Nixon vs.

JFK in 1960s, so they are part of the political environment in the UK and the French Presidential elections dominated by debates in the last couple of weeks to but I don't think debates a loner enough for the point that I made earlier that this claim dominating the news headlines that if you want labour you be £2,000 worse off that deserves forensic scrutiny and and the Debate can't do that.

I still think there's a role for the

11 forensic and fair robust interview with whoever would like to be our prime minister and so we need both we need a bit but we need presenter to confront whoever wants to be up government with what they say in challenge them actually.

I think there's a space for four types of coverage.

I actually enjoyed it to be a fail to it was feisty and testing at times.

I thought it's frustrating at times and I think for part of the reason you're saying that you know why I didn't quite get into it quick enough for or actually we got to the point we wanted a bit more of it but we had to stop a move on onto the next question but at the moment or broadcast facing at the moment is sulphur proven quite difficult to tie them down to one on ones that you don't have to say yes, it's the pressure to say yes to something to watch.

Put the TV coverage comes in lots of different forms on Friday at 7:30 on BBC One BBC2 bait with seven parties is going to happen and those words Andrew that will feature the Conservative Party the Labour Party Liberal Democrats the Scottish National Party plaid Cymru the Green Party and reform UK and I wonder both Caroline Andrew in some circumstances elections Drive consumption of news, they are big events for news organisations, but not always Andrew you're on times radio.

It's labelling.

It's election station.

So clearly you believe that.

This is a good way of story that will drive interest in what time is radios doing I mean I think it is branded and self the election station because I think a lot of before I join.

I think a lot of the research showed that actually politics current affairs news was its best ratings winner.

That's more than lifestyle are cultural issues or whatever.

Current affairs and news got the best audiences and so even once the elections over.

I think they will concentrate on that on the politics and the current affairs of the time the Debate coming up on Friday is is a difficult when I don't envy whoever's anchoring it is difficult for 7 people to share the same from my point of our audience is definitely interested in the election and politics and current affairs wants to know how this is going to affect them wants to know are you know are we change? Yes, we are if we listen to the Poles which you know we definitely definitely are doing at the moment certainly from you know left-leaning paper news brands like her own.

You know it's an exciting time for our audience so in terms of is it driving is it driving engagement and other people interested absolutely.

Data which I'm sure it's coming over your computer all of the time telling you which stories are being consumed.

Can you see the election of driving with a bigger story we can see in current tame what's doing well both from from from an audience and Growth perspective what's going whats up staying euro thing staying the same and stable but we engage my point of view as well, so it's not just about the numbers actually it's about the length of time that the reading it's about the additional breakout stories are coming from you know I was asking because Andrew all news organisations are familiar with news avoidance the fact that people are and wanting news from one place to another they simply decided I'm exhausted by what I'm hearing and I guess consumption of elections gets caught up in that will switch off.

The fact that the election is generally regarded as a foregone conclusion will probably isn't great for driving by the audience or or readers is much better when it's a close for thing then you can really get people's attention, but your elections are the hallmarks of democracy is enough people out there who want to follow the ins and outs.

I'm slightly dubious about depending too much on the data of the algorithms.

I think in the end of the day.

You're paid big money is an editor to make some choices yourself and sometimes.

What is the Reading isn't just important thing is what they should read just getting a little bit more about you because not let her a big box that you're being paid but you have the mirror you confirm that the position at the end of April you previously held the role on an interim basis upon the departure of Alison Phillips wanted to talk a little bit about your vision.

Mirror it's in a got a tradition of campaigning journalism is that something you plan to continue yeah 100% I mean camping and is in it's in the middle of dnd.

We will continue to campaign so what sort of things are current camping running at the moment see the NHS dentistry minute can't be more current both the election time but pre-election and post-election.

I mean the amount of people that cannot get an NHS dentist appointments and saying to we have champions like that.

I'm running that you know on a daily basis.

It's disgusting Newsroom we launched just after I started in the interim position.

We had her justice for daughters can essentially to change the law in terms of domestic violence but you know we've got fun stuff as well.

It's not the mirror.

Has always been about campaigning but it's actually always been about bringing fun and a likeness as well so certainly moving forward as well as the campaigns in the news you disgusting you know that something that we do have to be a weird of so one of the things you know your own by which one of the things that people who listen to watch the show will know if they listen to is that you know they have been very severe that reach that was one of the reasons for why your predecessor departed linked to 450 job cuts at reach are you is that on there for you? We know it's testing times and John and going to talk about that later, but are you going to have to be making more job cuts my role is to take the mirror into the future and I'm here to assess brilliant content of a team that creates brilliant content that takes us into multi-platform future for the next generation for the looking for carers if you look.

I'm over phone hacking against newspapers.

I think you've already had to pay at 100000000 to settle other cases these difficult times with that thrown in here to talk about past without being meal without sounding with the moving on.

I think you know but it's a future is not even got the money to pay for stuff well.

Look money needs to come from somewhere of course good quality journalism can cost money but ultimately that's my responsibility to ensure that we continue to bring great content that is relevant to order and it's an exciting time actually this is a really exciting time for for the brand for the mirror in particular.

I mean who you know what better time to come in and by the editor-in-chief of the matter you Alison was waiting it may be that would have been better if we didn't have to worry about social media stealing audiences.

Content in journalism, and you know I think this is amazing time.

It's been brilliant be back in The Newsroom news agenda.

Have been fantastic at the election as we mentioned before trump today.

We actually you know we launched are proud of pride of Britain so look you know from from a journalistic point of you.

That's what I'm passionate about that's what I usually passionate and I think we have to look to the future in not look back at the past Andrew you're also looking for the future.

You've just started a new gig at times radio.

I wonder how that came about when do that I can't remember no couple of months ago.

Ok? Thank you before but I was too busy doing other things some of the things that I should have been doing and I won't mention the name come up at some point they came back and there's GB news for the listening and I was originally going to be contracted to do we are assuming the British

Would be in November so I was contracted to do September October and November from London and New York and recover the British and the American elections together.

We should have been great surprise as all the name July 4th not just independence day before election day and the time said would you could you please start on June 3rd and do up until July 5th in New York when they asked me but I flew back and we started on Monday I do know it's now better because we've got this period of the British election to cover we can concentrate on that when I come back and we'll have the US election which subways will be more important than the British election even to Britain and we will also course probably have a new Labour government which of the Middletons getting the end of the desk in September the party conferences coming up again, so it's quite good to split them up into it's a busy time and I wonder you was reported.

You are also talking to Channel 4.

I don't know what are the conversation.

I didn't go for a while, but if I did Three Seasons with Carol for it works.

Well.

They liked it like a lot of the organisation of these days and they said to me quietly we got no money.

We haven't got any money because it's largely a business model that depends on advertising they getting digital know but it's largely that advertising and that sort of thing for advertising driven TV stations.

I'm interested though, especially after your bruising experience at GB news as you can see the options of stepping back into the studio weather is a TV radio or TV studio radio studio.

What are the things that you're looking forward to offer you reassurance that this is going to be a gig worth doing what you call the bruising experience technology that work nice her description.

No, it's an understatement technology that works is quite useful to have a title radio has great technology there a great team as well.

It's an interesting development that could ever.

In the digital age because of course they would have been no bandwidth.

There will be no signals to produce a radio station like that is all BBC has most of them showing up in a couple of other private patients, but not in the digital age and newspaper like the time times can develop its own radio dimension to and I think I mean I'm not inside the time zone for that part of the purpose of times really as I understand it is it's a brand extension and marketing to a lot of the marketing budget for the times and the Sunday Times has gone into town.

He was listening earlier.

You were saying that on your program and you were promoting a subscription deal and I said and I'm curious when you take a new presentation gig you've presented in different capacities for many years.

Are you doing it on instant or do you think about the techniques of presentation the type of presentation that you want to do do you approach a different?

You might have done 10 years ago you cut your cloth to what suits and I think the Times radio has a 8088 quiet.

It's not an aggressive tone.

It is a conversational tone.

I would say so I'm concerned x be a bit of grass if you probably not notice but I can't interviews and there was a bit of rest of today.

Cos I'm so annoyed that I wasn't being told the truth, but other than that I think you'll just have to let you toned fit in more with the tone of the brand which I think is important in a multi multi-channel multi-station world tones quite important because it different radio for everybody knows the radio for some famous the you were Rupert Murdoch when you anything the Sunday Times you've come back into the Fold in this presentation give you been in touch with him since I have not spoken for 25 years seems longer.

And I think it's been quite busy this week as you got married.

I mean could you imagine you got married and didn't bother to call me just now well.

I didn't get an invite was the gym in Australia getting invite.

I don't know that's one.

That's one of your roles the other is we've got a number but another is chairman of The Spectator group with reference to lot whenever you're a guest on a program such as this I'm sure people listening.

He'll be aware that you hold that role, may not know what that involves on a day-to-day or a week to week basis.

What do you do in that capacity fundamentally what I do is that when things go right? I take all the credit and when things go wrong.

I blame the editor and the managing director of my job is my fundamental the German is to ensure the Independence of The Spectator to ensure the editorial Independence Of The Spectator from everybody from advertises from readers from

Prize as well we have one at the moment because you're in limbo bit from the proprietor to to make sure the editor has the most freedom of any editor in London to edit The Spectator is or she sees fit my other role? Is that come under pressure though, are there times when you have to push back to tell that's not proper when you on The Spectator you got to take the rough with the smooth in the you know you don't get your own way.

You don't get to tell they're just want to to to do and I've always try to be a brother that advertises we don't get many advertisers.

No because we're a subscription model which we link you do what's coming up and like to be helpful about it, but sometimes we fit advertises saying we don't like at school.

We're going to withdraw advertise and I have said quite know you will not withdraw your advertising because I have no you are banned from advertising in The Spectator

Everybody tries to influence the content of The Spectator other than the editor himself and this includes me I don't get involved my content then you are banned from because I think freezing for this is a very important there might be some lessons therefore other that isn't chairman at you're right that we are going to talk about subscription but not right now because I think this is a good point.

You know just told me earlier about the newly married man.

He is a good point to talk about who has influenced in this election as you know and Madoc it used to be described as new famously calling calling who won they call the famous that you're lying you know whoever last to leave turn the lights out that was in 1992 and then came the next day after John Major have beaten Neil Kinnock it's the sun wot.

Won it under the influence of a newspaper like the sun and what it might do I get do you have any sense of what it might do now you're back in that fold but also whether it counts as much whether it matters, what it does.

What any of the news UK newspapers were doing it's none of my business.

I would say the newspapers in general do not have anything like the influence, they had because there are so many other outlets now and the something about about digital that it doesn't quite have the impact of the old newsprint.

You know you mention the front is the sun wot won it sort of thing I switch off the lights before you leave the country.

I think that it's become much more diffuse the newspapers don't sell anything like they did they do in some cases, so I think you know this they used to be the Tory press that it still has some influence.

It's nothing like before in my view.

There are so many other outlets and some of its influence now is tangential inlet.

It is still because of the party.

I like America we have national newspapers unlike friends.

We have not seen you I like Germany

We have national newspapers, so they still have some part part of that car is actually inference inference in the broadcast agenda and broadcasters looking at what newspapers are Carrie and then deciding they're going to follow that now it's not a one-way Street all the newspapers are following ITV last night broadcasters now can set the agenda as well, so I'm more healthy much more spread out.

There are so many more outlets so many choices so many opportunities so many more TV sections as well there are doing at that is much more difficult go back to the old steam Age of the 70s and the 80s when the mirror the sun they were real powerful forces in the land.

I think that day has gone well you mention them the mirrors and doors labour at every election since 1945 your endorsing them again, but does anyone really care.

Yes, I mean look print is in decline.

Yes that that's a fact of life, but I think we are still relevant and I think it is still an important and actually it's not just about our print content and her print newspaper having a brand like the middle that actually has a print using me paper but also has its it has its web page on at social channels.

It's able actually to reach a more diverse audience than than actually if it was if we were just confined to two to print so you leave your audiences come to you because they know your labour supporting and their labour voters or do you believe that you influence how people vote or is it a bit of both? What's that? What's the evidence of it then and we are you know where are trusted brands are audience comes to us because we want to know what's going on and when we includes labour voters.

Mainly as you said as you as you rightly said you know we we we are a left-leaning.

We are a labour supporting and again.

That's what makes it really exciting for the murder at this time, but I would see that we we are you is the relevant we are still relevant and I think as long as we can inform entertain and keep the Debate going then.

Yes, I know it's so different from the Sunday Times in 1983.

It's it's like 1883.

Have you heard of the word wearing at the biggest website the most read website in the United Kingdom is the BBC News website that didn't exist exist in 83 Days by Jim Wilson in the garden about BBC push alerts and how actually used to be Craig Craig Oliver David Cameron's former director of communications said that in the

It was about influencing BBC's coverage was the sort of political press officers main drive and now actually the focus is shifting online to try and Influence to get those BBC push alerts out with your message.

You have print publications like news having radio stations.

They got times radio and took that you never happens in ITV3 music little magazine The Spectator TV that a magazine we have a TV channel to that I know the BBC is in his boots at the prospect of spectatortv, but actually brought does canal.du written journalism and written journalism can now do broadcast journalism and I think that's really healthy and it needs it today's journalist have got to be multi tasks.

They got to be multi-skilled you got to be able to do things on a panoply of platforms and not just be like when I started at The Economist when the dinosaurs.

That you just wrote article.

You just one week and then you went home to church on the way home now and I don't want to sound like a broken record but actually this is why it's such an exciting time at the moment will both of you been measured in both the particles, but also the step into digital on next guess is going to definitely want to talk about both of those things so joining Andrew Neil and Caroline Waterston who are with us in the media show studio let's bring in a guest from the Jeffrey goldburgers where there has been editor-in-chief of the Atlantic since 2016 Jeffrey thank you for joining us on the media show thank you for having me for people listening who don't know the Atlantic give us an introduction.

What is it? What does it stand for? What do you publish?

How is that even possible? It's 167 magazine download in Boston heating 18534 the Civil War politics culture literature remains committed to those areas today.

I don't know what the English the British equivalent of the Atlantic might be by we try to explain America to itself to some degree.

I think that's one of our purposes.

We have a Monthly magazine with large base we have a million subscribers including digital subscribers and we actually released.

Audience in Britain I'd like to change that we reach pretty wide array of people across the US and other parts of the English-speaking world and I think I'm buying saying your privately owned Emerson collective which is an organisation set up by Lauren Powell jobs the Widow of the Apple founder Steve Jobs just explains how that works Lorraine and Emerson collective but the Atlantic 7 years ago.

It works knock on wood wonderfully well is a great honour we have completed editorial independence.

She's very supported the mission as is the whole organisation.

Where are for-profit organization although Emerson collective a for-profit and not-for-profit wings we are profitable on our on our own which is a good thing.

Very rare these days.

I'm just thinking about the missing in the post.

We definitely want to ask you about some of the announcements at the Washington Post and we want to ask you about your route to profitability because that was one of the reasons we were so interested to have you on the programme before we get into the details of what you've done at the Atlantic with Katie's help as well, and I guess who's joining us want to put what the Atlantic is trying to do and what all publications in the News Arena I tried to do in some contexts in a topless is from Business Insider and she's here still with us and I just don't be useful if she just gave us a recap on the structural problems facing the industry because Katie it has already been mentioned much of this comes back to advertising doesn't it one of the biggest problems is just that digital advertising which was what supported journals.

Many decades and centuries has sort of dried up Facebook in Google or very effective Being Digital avocados, and they've just picked up a lot of the ad dollars out there, so if you are a brain like it's easier to put your dollar somewhere else than to run an ad in a publication that has really affected the industry across the board and you're obviously there is a lot of other factors going on the rise of the drum therefore.

I used to be to be hopeful about the state of journalism and be able to sustain Media businesses Katie thank you Jeffrey Goldberg the Atlantic let's bring you back in you lost your online paywall in 2019 tell us about that decision and what happens.

Yeah, well, it turned out to be excellent timing because of the pandemic hit the next year and advertising bottom and We're holding around and advertising we have good people doing it.

You know it's not going to be the primary source of revenue for this company going into the future.

We've switched actually since 2019.

We're now majority of our revenue comes from subscriptions and consumer business not advertising advertising is still important, but we launched this I mean obviously we're gonna print magazine since the 1850s.

We've had a long experience of being a subscription-based organisation when the when we entered the internet in a big way in the mid-90s late 90s obviously problematic get revenue from advertising became huge for us, but we finally decided.

The company finally decided 2019 to launch a paywall for a digital product and I'll be dead because of a combination of news in trump news are really accelerated are roast in the in the next couple of the next couple of years and that brought us.

We just crossed the millions and digital in the half roughly half or digital-only and the Half a digital-only as you may have heard us discussing did Andrew Neil and Caroline Waterston before you joined us.

We were talking about the fact that all news organisations of diversifying the type of content that they're making I wonder aside from the trademark Atlantic long articles which many people will know what else you offer digital subscribers, but we have a daily report your neighbour not building a second.

Newsroom newsroom in the Washington Post case for a for tiktok videos or whatever it is compressed Jeffrey so you're just getting nothing to do with your dad know the you know I think that so what I said was out of years ago.

You know all I wanted and I have you know Lorraine's 100% Barking on this big highest quality journalism because highest quality journalism is the only thing that people will pay for and

You know if we put all of our eggs in the programmatic ad revenue basket we be in bad shape and and so on and so I think doubling down and what you do best and end up making a unique unique stories that people will actually pay for to read.

Is is the way to go and so we have a much more you know I received 30 years ago before the internet landline it came out it was you no more leisurely pace thing today.

We publish everyday.

We publish you know every hour and busy but we're still trying to maintain that level of quality and differentiation so that we can convince readers to become subscribers does the bringing.on Junior because some of this with your spectator house.

I must be sounding quite familiar.

He's talking about a million subscribers Howards

100000 subscribers in the UK 20000 in America could you just lunch there and about 12000 and Australia the if you get the business model write the digital age can be a golden age for journalism and publications like Atlantic monthly and The Spectator but you need to get it right and you need to realise that they all business models were bankrupt so I took over The Spectator in 2005 65% of our revenue came from advertising today's less than 10% advertising is only after third biggest revenue stream.

We had two new revenue streams are very tough paywall up about 1214 years ago 80% of our revenues now come from subscription and it's a wonderful business model because the revenues are predictable.

I know within 5% + a - what's coming in this year because I know the renewal rate.

I know what the marketing will produce and it's not subject to the economics.

Unlike advertising which is highly unpredictable.

They are so you get that right in your a Golden Age they're the poster child of all this of course is the New York Times we start his play million subscribers correspondence that it's ever had in its history and the times and the Sunday Times and highly profitable on the subscription model and then you need to look in addition description of you for other streams of revenue seems that you never thought of before for example.

Cos she still take some advertising you take very little problematic because he was the problem if you're a subscription model you providing a premium website and you don't want your website countries by endless ads for things that you have no control over.

So you really need to control that and you're talking about digital diamonds and turns up programmatic, but instead you do news.

You'll do podcast you have spectatortv and another Ventures like that and above all a second biggest stream of revenue events.

We do events VELUX Pam The Brand and bringing a ton of money.

Have you ever thought about a paywall it's not on the Meadows agenda.

I mean certainly from from my point of view from the middle point of view your I believe that our content should be available to a wide community not just those that that that can afford that you know we are news brand.

I want to ensure that that everyone has access to our content and certainly it's not a gender but does that mean financially you're taking a hit you do you believe are you in? Are you essentially of the belief that the paywall is this too dramatic as a wall as a threat to democracy is that how you see it.

Sorry, it's just not on her agenda at the moment.

We talked about work.

Well.

It doesn't work and landing it.

You know it's different Atlantic spectator time Sunday x Financial Times people are willing to pay for that kind of journalism the problem with what we used to call red top tabloid.

It is that people want pay for it digitally I've got in the old days.

They paid for it by putting the money down to buy the paper but it seems a lot of that kind of content they think they can you get almost for free on the net so they're not it's a touch of all the all of our industry from the top to the bottom has had to with go digital waves of change the toughest part of the market to get ripe is the red top tabloid part of the the market because model doesn't work.

Yeah and look good quality.

What is exactly what we want to do but good quality journalism shouldn't just be available to those that can afford to pay so yes, we we are an ad model and help fund our journalism and certainly that's where we are at the moment in terms of the experience of the user the user of your journalism.

Do you have any concerns that the proliferation of adverts which you need in order to fund the work you're doing lessons the experience think about every day, but it's a part of life and certainly from from the mirror point of view we have to produce good quality journalism and help us do that.

OK just bring you back in Jeffrey Goldberg because earlier on in the program.

We are talking with Andrew and Caroline about whether the UK election was driving consumption of news here in the UK

What about your experience in the US particularly relating to Donald Trump who we know back in 2016 drove huge levels of news and news related content consumption.

Are you seeing the same this time around 2016 and 2020 wooden say we have a match top up a wall.

So that limits the sort of explosive numbers that you have seen 2020 2016 in particular.

I think there's also fatigue.

You know these are the characters in now.

What would be called a long-running drama trump and Biden as well.

I think there is some fatigue with it all that being said there's obviously unusual election taking place.

I'm trying to use the most and downward possible.

There's are consequential election taking place and people.

Our kind of leader in particular is going to be very engaged in it, but you know and I think this is a lesson from the Washington Post anywhere.

You can't just assume that the local news for continually spike for you to do that thing.

That's the right thing to do for your publications mission first and if you forget that you're gonna lose your subscribers, but I am going to see the same crazy numbers that we that we saw in the past but obviously this is not normal election and and and trump does draw a man of attention to the Washington Post a couple of times.

We should say that on Monday Sally buzbee.

We heard was in her role as the Washington Post executive editor to be replaced by Robert winnett from the Daily Telegraph and will Lewis who's the CEO of the Washington Post said we are losing large amounts of money your audience this.

Your audience is hard in recent years people and not reading your stuff.

I can't sugarcoat it anymore, so the Washington Post is looking to change its strategy, but coming back more broadly to Donald Trump the question with ask the number of times on the media show over the years, but it doesn't make it any less pressing you've called the election consequential an unusual Jeffrey I'm sure there are other words you would use to how do you the picture of a hugely consequential magazine and publication in the US approach the challenge of covering Donald Trump and I'm interested to ask Andrew and Caroline the same question afterwards by the way I do wanna talk about the washing clothes to some degree by any other newspapers, how much the same anymore with the Washington Post that was a joke by the way the you know we we are the problem.

N16 where we were trying to you know we were following the Old rules to some degree which is in the old rules were the Old rules of coverage.

What would people people with call both side arism the Old rules work when you have when you had candidates who operated on a certain within certain lines lines of self-restraint lanes of adherence to democratic norms when candidates felt shame and position themselves based on feedback regarding the things that they do you know the most important thing for me and you know we try to get it right and I want all the people trying to get no one will try and catch up the most important thing is that we describe things plainly right you from eyes because

It's Donald Trump's behave yourself novel means that novel anymore, but it's still novel historically in there you know in that we don't become and this is what I'm on about we don't normalise to this around you know well trump.

Just said that you know the North Korean dictators head is made of cheese are the only says stuff like that now.

We have to do it every we have to report the oddness whenever it erupts in this mean.

You're not joining the resistance we never join the resistance which means we also question Joe biden's capacities for the Daily Mirror in the UK Caroline how do you approach Donald Trump like any other politician or their particular things you tell your colleagues look we have to we have to be careful here.

Character but at the weekend you hopefully I've seen we actually had the world exclusive of stormy Daniels post everything that happened last week and the content that comes out of trump in his everyday life and how he reacts I mean it creates brilliant brilliant content for our audience and ever you were making a joke there at the Washington Post expense and you let me bring you in here now because we have senior British executives at the Wall Street Journal the Washington Post CNN Bloomberg news.

What do you make of this exodus of senior British editors in the direction of the us? We was penicillin standard British journalism is vibrant and dynamic and hugely successful, and we know how to write and we know how to write concisely doesn't matter that their problem.

No, because unlike a lot of Americans who come here you know nothing about Britain red being an example of that when we go to America we know a lot about America we do our homework because we love it.

We like America it's a bigger playing field.

It's fun to be there a huge jobs to be taken in America and we know what we're doing and buy large.

We're pretty successful and that passing reference a reference to Dieppe circa who along with other people was trying to buy the Telegraph something which didn't happen and maybe one day on the media show will get you and Jeff circle having a conversation that would be something people that be interested to hear that word for now.

He just going to have to switch horses because we did promise you at the top a story about a I would you cover a lot on this show but this angle might surprise you in about 3 weeks Google's AI search feature called a overviews has been going viral, but probably not for the reasons.

It would like the search engine has returned some perplexing results of hearing about the top from recommending.

From Business Insider that humans eat one rock a day to adding blue to your pizza Katie you're still without your senior tech and business correspondence at Business Insider just explain first of all how AI overview works because it was rolled out as you said to all us users quite recently what what does it look like when you search for something? What are you doing? What does it look like so it's not on every single search is only on certain searches to believe 10th of asking a specific question vs.

You know searching somebody's name or something like that and it basically give you a little bit of a maybe a couple of sentences a little paragraph.

Maybe a few bullet points essentially answers your question and this is probably very useful for most most of the time, but it was initially sort of riddled with laughable hours.

Can you do the things that I do know that you did this really is?

Do your job you made a pizza with glue and ate it just explain why you did that slightly give it a miss you mean it was for a piece and Alyssa ready to take the challenges something to eat pizza with glue on it with someone had asked how do I get the glue cheese to not fly off my pizza and Google suggested.

You know that the pizza cool for a while and then it also said add 1/8 of a cup of glue to the sock from suggested that obviously as a joke.

They were reading it could understand in contact the person was making a joke to keep the cheese and pineapple pizza.

You should add blue this Google assistant couldn't understand that this was satire that was a joke.

So not I mean I should bring in the world Google said about this is a told the BBC isolated examples gender very uncommon queries.

They are representative of most people's experiences and that the vast majority it says of a overview provide high-quality information with links to dig deeper on the web and it said it's taking my policy violations were identified and it was using them to refine its systems just in the last couple of minutes of the programme.

Let me ask a further question about AI and it comes down to when big organisations that have content like the Atlantic or The Spectator on the mirror decide whether or not to share all of that content with the big language models that are training generative AI and Jeffrey at.

Jeffrey Goldberg you cut a deal with open AI tell us about the discussions within the Atlantic where you are weighing up whether to do that or not.

I just I just have to be clear about something that editorial team as independent from the business side of this operation, but the business I has independence from the editorial side and this was a decision made by The Corporation and by our business leadership to do this and so I was certainly told about it and I was invited to share my views on it, but you know I have my ambulances about it.

I mean I I I don't want to I don't forget who is saying it turns out been grade for a place like we reach many more people then we used to because of the internet.

I don't want to be my daughter axiomatically.

This sort of thing in say I is only a threat but I have my deep ambulances about about AI and what is going to do to journalism and also by the way, I'm in the future about planet all that being said AI is coming whether or not I wanted to come in.

It's a little bit like to me complaining about the weather the weather doesn't care that I don't like so I've got a dress for the weather and dressing for the weather in this case means trying to figure out a way to have a relationship with open AI open AI doesn't eat you for lunch.

Let me just quickly Caroline Andrew very quickly if you would Caroline has the Daily Mirror view in the idea of sharing its content with these big AI operators, what can we wouldn't?

The Spectator we won't do that until we know a lot more about it.

I mean if it's another potential stream of revenue that doesn't carry risks.

That's one thing but we need to know a lot more for me.

They are biggest opportunities on the commercial side.

I think there's a lot of the day.

I can help us run the company commercially much better we can learn more about our readers about users of the app user of the website all that is fine but for the moment.

I'll keep editorial separate and I'll just had the new at times.

It's a very different approach to this.

It's not collaborating with open AI in fact.

It's suing for after B content so we're going to watch how that plays out and I was at the end of Deloitte Media conference yesterday where Anna Bates and who runs the Guardian said they would do a deal with an AI company but only on the right to the end on because that is all we have time for I'm afraid.

I thank you so much to Katie the tablets from Business Insider and of course Andrew Neil from times radio schedule for the spec.

And Caroline Waterston editor-in-chief of the mirror and Jeffrey Goldberg editor-in-chief of the Atlantic you can listen back to this edition and all our auditions on BBC sounds but for now.

Thank you so much for listening bye-bye.

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