Read this: Ofcom, impartiality and elections

Just before this BBC podcast gets underway hear something you may not know my name is Linda Davies and High Commission podcast BBC sounds, is it expect at the BBC we make podcast of the very highest quality featuring the most knowledgeable experts and genuinely engaging voices what you mean not know is at the BBC make a podcast about all kinds of things like pop stars cricket and conspiracy theories and that's just a few examples.

If you'd like to discover something a little bit unexpected find your next podcast over it BBC BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 to John Haggerty is a legend of UK advertising and now teaches creativity is here in the media show studio house to John can it really be taught absolutely of course it can be?

Creative that's what separates us out from the animal kingdom dog don't get up in the morning and think I don't know the way I look I don't like the way I feel we do as part of a creative Express how we actually interact with the World At Large and of course we can all sing you want to hear me sing by the way we can always help you.

Can you can you can help people with their creativity, but understanding it? What is at the heart of it? What is of the process of it? How it operate fundamentally helps people with also got Matt Bennett executive producer Shine TV who perhaps we'll be singing to us later Matt at the one of those who developed Hunter the Channel 4 reality series.

Do you have a process that you follow that sort of creative process in developing ideas?

Trying to answer the question do modern men and women still have what it takes to survive on a desert island and Hunted is based on whether another question whether men and go on the run and evade capture in Britain one of the most surveilled country in the world, so of course ideas come from many places, but that's certainly been some of the pillars that have helped us in the last decade am I going to talk to you about that program also hear the media show studio is Decca aitkenhead of the Sunday Times and the winner of the broadsheet interview of the year at the recent press Awards congratulation coming in do you have a creative process of going into an interview? I've got no control over my process because it's completely whoever it is.

I'm interviewing so it's impossible not to be created in the sense that you're starting from a completely blank page every single time that you can't bring us at a formula or a kind of

Your questions because you're entirely determined by who are very busy or interviewing so it has to be by definition creative.

I don't think I'm particularly creative.

I just thought the circumstances force it from me and presumably going to be quite a lot creative people who might pick up tips and on the way we are also divulging user information to advertisers it denies this but what does the story tell us about the relationship between tech companies and advertisers first of all though, we're going to talk about Ofcom UK's Media regulator amongst.

It's many responsibility is it overseas impartiality rules for broadcast news unlike the print Press News broadcasters have to be impartial and in the last year questions about what exactly that means in practise not least because GB news has had current and former politicians on its presenter line-up and they are almost all.

Flight of the political spectrum well now we have an update on this issue on impartiality from the regulator of common Christina nicoletti Squires is ofcom's group director for broadcast Media she's in the media studio hi Christina a few times on the media show but previously and your guys has the director of content at Sky News I wonder how it's been moving from someone creates content to someone who regulates the people who create content is it actually knows me knows that I have audiences massive Passion of mine and audiences at the hospital manager making the programme maker and so to come to somewhere where weird protecting audiences as well as upholding freedom expression is there is actually quite a good fit for me so some people say it's a bit like a poached home gamekeeper.

I like to say having been on 35 years of respecting off.

I'm now in showing that there is there in force so it's not to think and the rules were focused on today are the rules around impartiality for broadcast news and of Commerce conducted some research, which you've today in Park looking at what people expect from broadcast news want to get found out.

It's been a very hot debated Topic the issue of politicians as presenters lots of people have had different opinions which is great because that's what you like.

Lots of different opinions and and Rangers voices and becomes very much and evidence-based organisation so we decided to go and speak to audiences to find out what they think it was a 29 different focus groups hundreds of hours of conversation from right across the country difficult political leanings different engagements with various programs and basically what came across was that all this is really value during partiality news.

It's really important where the news broadcasters had different.

To play by compared with other parts of the press.

I don't actually ask them specifically about these papers at all were talking about broadcast news so we didn't they aware that broadcast obligations.

I think they must be because I did not very interesting his mother is surgery done Ofcom people trust broadcast news much more than they do news or any miss you on social media and I think the reason why they do trust broadcast users because it's regulated and during this research were the results that you got from this research were there any signs of confusion because some people watching her corners regulated GB news and it's politicians as presenters and also LBC which has had a politician has presenters of thought hold on this looks like a different interpretation of the rules than the one.

We thought we were following rules are really clear.

They apply.

There's one set of Rules that apply to very wide and broad broadcast landscape there was.

What's the people spoke to a little bit of confusion about the difference between news and current affairs people told us they didn't like politicians presenting news which we don't allow but if you rulings on that when it came to current affairs.

They were of the view that did you like your present but they didn't want it band.

What is the difference between news and current affairs is a very broad range of ways of assessing this.

They can be things like visual language like breaking news up on a strap some people think that presentation on the sofa can be news and current affairs there is a there are present the news if I'm behind a desk.

Is it news if I'm on a sofa, is it coronavirus and surely are regulation of news is not coming down to wear with no that's just one of the one of the Context it.

So it may sound to you and I think people getting used to the mix of news and current affairs in programs that can go on for long.

Designer program for example is not just a news program it contains the news and current affairs and we are very clear that politicians composite news programs, but they can present and all of the research results that I've read appear to fit quite conveniently or comfortably with where Ofcom says it is with its approach to regulation which some people would say lighter touch then they might be expecting.

Yeah.

I know there are some people that think the research has sought of conveniently fitter of you.

It is a very robust research.

It's actually done by itself Moray not directly and it happens reflect the views of the audience which is actually the most important thing in this debate rather than commentators.

Just don't understand because people listening will have heard some of the criticisms or questions of Ofcom in the Munster those people who had criticism we're just getting the wrong end of the stick and then actually what GB news and LBC have been doing was actually always fine.

It's just no one realised it until GB news now deceased.

Doing it, so I don't know I can't go back into decisions that were made before my time, but the rules are very clear and there is only one set of Rules I think we've been accused of having different standards for different we don't do that.

We have one set to clear set of Rules which we apply complaints about GB news as 11% of the complaints to get since they went on here we assess them very clearly you do with everyone else Andre fairly and I know that some people still believe you have some kind of agenda.

We just simply don't and if there's someone listening who doesn't know the rules that Ofcom has impartiality and broadcast news.

How would we summarise them? What can you do? What can't you do what? What must you do is very difficult to hypothesize because what we do is when we take a complaint or investigation programme reset a number of different things.

They really important thing is what actually pick up something called you impartiality and that small word does another heavy lifting a program needs to be Julian parcel in in order.

You comply and it needs to take a number of context into account it can be the expectations of the audience it can be the subject has been discussed it can be the programs around it.

There are all sorts of different factors at the end of the day of comes got a very solid reputation in the last 20-years.

It makes these decisions are not easy ones to make they are the experts and so far Touchwood concealing any way none of those decisions have been successfully challenged by the courts.

So if I was to give you a range of scenarios that could easily play out in the next few months then election coming on you're not going to take a position on any of those because I've gone doesn't take a position any hypothetical scenarios even really likely ones like so Nigel Farage having a programme on GB news as someone who I've been a lot of people today have been views on programs.

That haven't even started yet.

I mean the general election campaign hasn't even launched.

We will assess complaint as they come in we.

Very quickly, we are very heightened needs for June partiality during election campaigns.

We put the broadcasters on noticed today that they are expected to fulfil those rules and impartiality will that really swift and just just because something good happened in the election campaign and after the election.

You might take a position that shouldn't happen but by that point it would have happened in the election.

Will it take an election committee I sit on it and it's stirred by so close.

He's one of our is the head of the content board we come to such as very quickly with wide range of sanctions.

We can actually Force broadcasters to make corrections, so we will act very clearly very strongly if there are problems mate, but we don't look into the future and guess what might happen before actually happens.

I'd like to explore their bit further with you if I could have the actions that you might take because clearly and election period is a different the stakes are really Heights

What the rules are now when it comes to elections? What are you saying about what politicians can and can't do in terms of preventing anyone is a candidate standing for a confident any kind of programmes period people who are politicians can present technically they can present current affairs, but they can't be candidate to a standing they but the desire of the need rather than necessity for June possibility is heightened in that period I looking for casters want to risk of having a high-profile politician is not standing for a c hosting a programme They're gonna have to work bloody hard to make sure that they are those programs are Julie and partial and we will come down on them like what you're saying is that is that not going to be too late.

I'm in the state of very high if for example somebody does break your rules during an election period that included only about six weeks long that right.

Will respond within days we've done them in 48hrs before we were responding days and if we feel that a hypothetical program is not sticking to the rules we will at very swiftly and very firmly you when you make that announcement the toughness when you say you're going to be tough.

Are you pointing that app for example as mentioned earlier Nigel Farage he would be allowed to present was he during this period because not seen by you as a politician because he's not standing with heavy is a co-founder the reform party.

There's actually investigations live at the moment as to whether Nigel Farage has politician or not and so I can you comment on that because that still game on at the moment, but if you want but even if I'm not going to politician he still if he's not standing will be able to present during the election period if the program is presented with during partiality then that would be ok, but it's got resented you impartiality and you can be impossible, but I'm not going to Dawn on that but let's see what happens.

I said a lot of people talk to you.

Hasn't even happen, do we want a country where we set rules about hypothesis hypothetical things that might happen? I don't think we do we are country that doesn't make sense of ship is at the broadcasters.

They are the rules up to them to follow them and then we will move very swiftly really swiftly to make them apologise or range of sanctions available to us as they stand during the election period David Lammy labour politician won't be allowed to present on LBC Jacob rees-mogg, standing conservative politician won't be able to and there are no more broadly lots of people saying yeah, we're seeing a creepin' politicisation of news channels and you have the power the powers but not the will to prevent it always and we'll put it to the segment of the other day.

You need to grow some back, but thank you very much.

I really like that idea.

We have not got we haven't got an agenda.

We're here to represent audiences GB news has an audience and we're there to protect that audience to make sure their programs are Julian we've been pretty strong with them so far.

We found them breach 11 times as some more case is pending and we put on notice that further breaches will actually have some sanctions, so I let the processes run.

We're not into summary Justice we don't make decisions a head of programmes being broadcast but we are very very robust and determined to be and what about the charge that you have bent over backwards to allow channel like TV news to continue acting the word does the range of opinions one of the things the audience research told us that people are you likely a wide range of programming to choose from people can have their opinions we don't bend over backwards anybody ever be back before the audience but in the end.

Can I just ask you that?

Very interesting to hear from the people that ipsos mori spoke on your behalf in the end of commas the regulator is obliged to enforce the regulations as they are not because of how public is so where the pub in comedian would like broadcast news to evolve in one Way Or Another is really something that would come by the government today elect it wouldn't be something for Ofcom to simply based on his by parliament and apartments to change his powers then that is there prerogative this research.

We just putting out there to broadcasters note of it is just one of the things informal decision-making and gives broadcasters an idea of what we'll do something but there are people in Parliament is a you have the laws you have the rules and play Snow is you can be a newsreader news interview or a news reporter unless there is exceptional editorial justification and they're saying the lines are two blood what we doing quite clear and those lines where politicians have been presenting use we.

Come down them and when there's an exception so in the last round of investigations you made into do believe it was 18th of March we didn't actually find Jacob rees-mogg or GBH and one occasion because he happened to be down in Buckingham Palace as a security announcement or security scare rather and he was able to update people so we decided to put exceptional Circumstance through like a politicians cannot prevent the news and we come down hard on there being put on notice means.

So what are the scenarios hear the broadcaster whoever it maybe there's something that stick to your rules where the during the election period or otherwise you think right we're going to act.

What are the kind of things that you might do there's a range of things out with the Range do we have the power to impose sanctions it can be financial it can be made to do something on here will assess every case and decide what they are financial being 10000 100000 it depends on the

I think on the turnover of the of the company involved, but we don't need to know today's licence away few years ago before my time.

We do have strong powers and we are not scared to use them and we will not be season thanks for coming in to speak to us.

We appreciate that Christina nicolosi Squires from of common this further details of Commons research.

You can find it on the BBC News website or dvf.com website.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much.

I want to talk now about the art of the interview with one of the finest in the business.

Who is here decorating head of the chief interviewer of the Sunday time and has into Hillary Clinton with Donna JK Rowling and countless other big names and she's just one broadsheet interview out of the Year of the present was as we said earlier, so Decker it's great.

I don't feel second pressure water get used to this actually.

Oh, sorry ok.

So you're really getting used to it.

How do you go about setting up and then?

M People come to you, did you approach them? How is it worth? It's a changing feel so sometimes.

There is a certain circuit of interviews coming in which follows the book publishers will have their big title.

So they want present there a certain kind of political Cycles we often do big interviews for Party Conference season big Phil Collins again.

There is a colour is a movie production cycle, but lots of it is a mixture of people who might be about to do something interesting that they want to talk about it might just be a sense that we have of somebody puts, I've just come from the studio to the studio from tuam Road Clinic who doesn't have booked to promote or a film to cellar anything like that.

He's just one of these great spoke to be a x and his in this election we wanted some hear his thoughts and about his family life.

There's no particular rhyme or reason to it really.

I'm saying a slightly with my culture register house on at BBC news that my heart sinks when it's John kit which we call them in terms of your somebody's got something to promote and you going to meet them does your hearts like you think about? What are you setting out to do always are you always setting out to get people to reveal more than they revealed before that's literally the definition of the job.

I don't do junk it's at all.

Junk.

It's listening to answer.

Where is you have a movie star who's starring in the new film and the film company will arrange for literally 20 or 30 journalist to come and sit in the Round Tables with the start and kind of groups a through for and have a couple of minutes luckily.

I don't go anywhere near that.

I mean.

I just think that's the kiss of death.

I don't know anyone who's ever said anything interesting if those circumstances with us.

We should ask for at least an hour and very often it can be 2 or even if I can keep them talking.

How long was Pamela Anderson because you got that was amazing.

Quite impressive, that's literally you know what I mean.

If I had to describe in one sentence what I do for a living it's like try and get an entry we to say something they haven't this sentence they haven't said before and they went intending to say a possibly that they might regret saying that's I think you would have to include that the sub clause at the sentence you and how do you do it because I know when you want this latest of the 5 judges praised your meticulous research and psychologic astute questioning.

How do you prepare? I mean it's such a mixture to answer is the preparation question which is just you just repair you prepare forensically and exhausted and you read everything you can that they've ever written you try and watch everything or listen to everything they've said you read it all previous interviews go into one interview it will depend upon the person some people.

Light with some people it could be a whole week of Reading and reading watching listening and crucially thinking so when you feel as if you've just you've got this encyclopaedia acknowledge of this setting the finals on a different person for each exam.

Once you feel like you know absolutely everything I've got 99% of what you read or learnt about them.

You won't actually it won't come up in the End come up when the peace when you're right it, but here it gets slightly mysterious Katie which was with my founders at some have you walk into an interview armed with this enormous of the body of research explicitly identify that you've done it.

We buy some Straits alchemy it's communicated to the person that you're interviewing really done your homework and what I found is that if ever done your homework that also communicates itself and that is the kiss of death so The Simpsons the very simple way to explain how you get people to open up as to show that you've done the work before you get there and they definitely need.

Feel that you're showing them the respect and courtesy of learning everything and sometimes you know you're my god.

You know more than I do that's a tick in my head.

You know that that's good and how much it is a then what happens in the room and obviously you prepare but then when I think you've got through some quite good to hear about body language fascinated with this.

I didn't know about a tall Katie until the pandemic is I enjoyed assume that the art is all about the words that I say to get them today words that it's all words right.

That's my job and then the pandemic happened and I had to interview people on zoom in that discovered actually invested all the significance of words and I'd also thought that my job is all about getting them to open up to talk and very quickly but I was wrong about both of those things and the first one is that so much a job is getting people to stop talking because they've obviously I mean I might be doing that right now as I'm speaking to you.

Interviewed just really know what the end of you.

I want sore and it's very easy.

I'm waiting you to go off around the houses and Ball the interview.

Cheers and they're sitting there.

I'm sitting down.

She's the clock is ticking.

I've only got 90 minutes of you.

Let's not waiting on and it goes.

I've heard you told him times before and it that point you have to stop that's the critical thing.

How do you do that? They turned out that you do with your body my body if I was in to seeing you and you were waffling on about something often happens.

Not the end of my part.

I would have you got to be quiet and almost unconscious in my body would have just been really subtle ways that will tell your body to stop talking and pushing your head won't even realise that I told you to stop talking and do that mechanism.

They saw sense of trust and collaboration is maintained but when you're on screens you literally have to just interrupt people and I love very quickly from experience you do that 2 x 33.

Never going to say anything.

I haven't planned to somebody who's just been friends with the camera and I think you just look like a nodding donkey is terrible.

I don't know what you do.

I'm sure I do answer I do plenty of Northern and I'm wondering in the moment.

Can you tell if an interview will translate into a Great Britain piece of course you're you're writing these interviews up can does one automatically follow the other have so there's like a bell in your head and every time the interviewees said something quite worthy in new to turn of phrase part of my job is to get people to speak in the most colloquial of term as possible because the interview in a written peas.

Is that your speed of the car that you're sounding like a human being and it's better we are so much through how we say is what we say and so I'm listening out at the whole time for.

Turn the phrase that tell us who they are and also things that they haven't said before and it's literally like a bell going off my head ding ding ding ding ding and the worst place to be in my life is 48 minutes into an interview and the bell has not changed.

That's when I start to panic.

That's really good while you're off pleased of abandoned all of your profile.

You have a list of people you spoken to in your mind where you've got 245 minutes and it's really not going to plan interviews the just didn't meet your expectations often been really coached.

They've had the media training and I don't know what idiot they paid to train them, but there is a misapprehension particularly among politicians particularly and experience politicians that be clever way to game out an interview get through the hour 90 minutes without saying try not to say something will regret which of course is one of the things that you're on the saying nothing is definitely because I will get us.

Do I have to fill 3000 3501 and that was there opportunity to fill a page with their words and if they don't I've got to go home and fill it with my word and I don't know about you, but I would much rather be in the bus.

They have me driving the bus of the interviewee is it is on the cover, so that's the terrible mistake people make it's a Disaster for me the bell isn't singing and I'm in trouble but it's a Disaster for them because they didn't get control.

What was said in the interview to ask you about Gordon Ramsay because I hear that didn't go to plan that would definitely no point in my career.

I mean definitely I only had an hour with him and somewhere between 35 and 40 minutes in and I hope I never do again.

I just picked up my stuff and left.

I just found him so objectionable and also crucially you know like the kind of diligent and everyone of it.

I can't remember how many days it was but it was many.

Eastbourne content of yours and he was a scowl and snow at mega that's not true and having my god.

It's such as you didn't even write them even read that your own and so belligerent and objectionable and cocaine together throughout the whole process and also deeply unpleasant talking about prisoners in which you've made it.

Will you be with her to talk about so he'd made him.

How many repellent things did you ever get his side of the story afterwards? How many autobiographies is going to question he would not be able to answer I can tell you that he's not here to speak for themselves, but it sounds like there are multiple autobiographies the carry on talking about creativity in a moment and we are indeed.

We still got Sir John Hegarty here to and just before we move on when exercising which is obviously all about creativity, but just even more than three decades interview.

The fantastic night we are living in a world now.

Where people are increasingly zooming conversations.

We can use that phrase and it is hugely dangerous, because you're not really understanding the body language of the person you're on understanding the subtleties of what is going on and we always used to say when we took a brief from a client.

I always wanted my credit people go to that so that when the client says things like I want to do something really different do they lean forward or do they lean back lean forward when they really do them back? They don't really and the other one.

How much are they blink when you ask him a certain question and the whole body language is the mentally important extracting from somebody what they need in creative terms when you're trying to do something profound for that.

You've got to understand.

Do they read?

It or not, I'm going to come back to order that's actually fast as you want to know more about the blinking but I want to talk about creativity and Times of TV formats because we've got the creators behind two of the most popular TV format the moment with a dinner borrow co-creator of the 1% club is here in the studio The the 1% is a hit quiz show that's ITV second biggest entertainment series of the Year places on that day.

It's been sold to in 12 territories including the US and we've had today Ukraine and hungry so was on a Matt Bennett also joins his shine senior executive one of the creators of Channel 4 series hunted the reality show that she's 12 ordinary people go on the run from a team of expert Hunters let's hear a clip of hunted.

Write a message on the London Underground network are down there.

They are like trapped rats.

That is a little bit of a series hunted matter with us.

It's by any measure been successful the 7th series finale aired on Channel 4 on Sunday you've sold this format all around the world wonder if you go right back to the beginning.

What was your original pitch for what the series would be received a really good and it started for me 10 years ago when I was approached by the creative director Tim Whitwell who instantly made that prison series with Gordon Ramsay today and hairy blokes for a month to to starve and film for a series called the Island with Bear Grylls which I mentioned her up and this other idea which was

Turns into hunted which really is answer that question about whether we can go on the run in 21st Century Britain with all the technology around us and this was this is back in 2014.

You may or may not have been revealed as well most of the countries in the world.

You know we were up there and still are I think with China and Russia and Edward Snowden hello who was American American now in Excel how much information is being shared between our governments and so I was really promising in the papers discussion about national security and and individual privacy so we we we we we we don't want to make a dry documentary about the powers of the state so we were overwhelmingly important issue of our time and some modern entertainment television do you make an entertainment format but you're also trying to make some big points once you got it on there was that what the audience was.

Just interested in seeing if the contestants got caught ultimately they were just interested in whether the contestants got caught and we had a wee friendly complex mechanic to make hunted and when we're making it.

We need to we need a staff of 300 people to get it on the screen and the key person that is a fellow called Kevin O'Leary and if they want follows Twitter during the Hunted broadcast you'll find Kevin on there, because he's are referee but it was also was formerly a very senior metropolitan police officer over saw the spirit e325 Olympics in was once head of the undercover unit for the mat and he helped us he agreed to come on board to help us create the Mechanic allowed us to replicate the the powers of the state the long as we only revealed and it's important.

The long as we only revealed methods that are out there in the public domain so there are obviously still policing methods that I don't know about but obviously Kevin does that that we just don't show in hunted for proper proper grown-up reasons really mechanic and you know we don't send out so for example.

Just find where CCTV cameras were we sent out 803 information request to a map where all the statement CCTV cameras are in Britain we designed a method of reporting ANPR cameras ANPR cameras in our cars in the hunters cars.

We worked out the phone calls.

We employed MCC an amazing cyber security company people an awful.

Lot of planning is the

I would like to bring dinner borrow in denial the co-founder of magma media and the co-creator of the 1% club on ITV as I said on side and the Outback I just think everyone is there a clip of that to Venice by 1% of £100,000 that was the one percent club and just explain for people haven't seen it although many people have as I said what what's the idea behind the idea is that there's 100 people and that we have taken holiday questions which all brain teasers so they're not things that are what's the capital of France and they don't have to answer and we've essentially taking off to one of those places.

You might get regular.

Survey like who you going to vote for what you think is washing machine whatever.

Are you go?

So whatever we'll ask these questions questions off brain teasers to cross section of the country and we are able without to know that 90% of the country can answer this question or 80% this question all the way down to 1%? 1 percent of people can answer the Assumption is that there's a little down to 1% and that's really and you can ask yourself a question a lot things he's been doing everything as a question the heart of it which is in it, how clever are you but in the kind of the real world of thinking you know there's already know where they are you he doesn't matter what school what level of education or your memory? I've got a great memory but doesn't mean that is all that sort of thing and where do you fit in? Are you in the top 50?

Top 10 or are you in that 1% then? It's spreading rights and as we're talking about creativity will come back to it much much more later.

Did you come up with the idea? I finally get get get away.

I'm probably one of the cleverest people.

I don't mind if we work together over 4 years.

He's to be commissioned such an equator.

She will find out project that 20 years ago.

I'd rather we got together.

He would kind of commission that show and we spent together when we sort of company and forwards this company with Sharon together with sit together and get lunch together come back and I would always go for the Daily Mail the mail online or the mirror whatever I might just one of my great pleasure at lunchtime and every now and again.

I would see one of those kind of clickbait.

Light switches you have to have an IQ of 150 will be able to answer this question only 5% of people my country can see it was always one.

Can you spot the bear in the woods or whatever will and I was always with them and I'll go over like I said to Andy who is one of the cleverest people of man.

I'm not and I would go I've got it.

I've got to have you and he wouldn't forget it never I'll be like my best bit of the day.

I love it and I would get these and let you know see them over months then one time.

I can't exactly what it was I saw a question and it was an extension equation in a sequence and as a car colouring and I just couldn't work out.

I took it home to my son who's 11 or maybe 12 is 18 next week, but that's how long it takes and he he got it in 10 seconds under 10 seconds and that was the thing which is 11 to get something perhaps that shows you that it doesn't really matter.

How old you are.

There was something in it and then we wrote some questions we send them off.

You know actually no disrespect to the MailOnline whatever it is.

It is it true that only 5% of people can do that are 10% so we want to know the truth we set off with came back and then that became a fascinating thing to ask Richard what percentage would 12 territories including American you set out to create a format we surprised we didn't do anything really we would make a great idea and it's very very quickly became clear to us that there was something there.

I genuinely wanted to know where I was because I was quite good and I wanted to know where he was 10 Questions we got the percentages may we sent them off to a TV and we want to know where are you? What do you think I know what kind of crypt like that, so that is really but it was and then I think when when she saw ticket from their it grows and then.

Getting me involved is it is phenomenal and watch it is Lee Mack unbelievably fast unbelievably quick-witted also genuinely interested in the style questions that really really helps and that elevates it again.

Sorry.

There's something really interesting and people you create the century for yourself.

You do what you love and then you kind of hope that other people love it and this idea that all I can work out what people like and what they don't have done some research which is mostly bulshit by the research.

Can you can prove anything in the world flat? Don't know I know I couldn't couldn't ultimately you create for yourself and then if your successful it kind of work.

So course you Road tested and you do things I think that's what drives creativity.

Ferocity as it is easy to see that Ryan and you can see this is why happiness is land and I think so expendables really know why these things take off.

I don't know if it's not as if we tried harder on this one that we did and any other so it's just that there was something.

I think that engages people and people talk about underwear television now this of death of television although there is a lot of shared Vane still is that sort of event event viewing I think all I hope that happens with 1% on ITV on Saturday night is that people are watching it together and does it mean by the weather in a room together, but they are wanting to share that they got a question and then or what the question is and how they've done and that means window people watching it in the living room but I might be with her family.

What is in Derby one of those in whole ones in London but only WhatsApp group competing with each other.

We love and and that has that's the thing that's kind of map that across the world.

They're doing the same thing and you're describing for Matthew developed for ITV and others and of course within those formats are advertising and that's fine to John Hegarty knows more for lot about you founded the advertising agency Bartle Bogle Hegarty a good while back now and it's the last time you're on the media show you were telling us about the famous Levi's ad with Nick Cayman and how was the pudding in briefs in the launderette the regulator wouldn't let you see how to put them in boxer shorts and the rest is history and the history we managed to sell boxer shorts to the world and we have to thank the later.

I've always said Calvin Klein never never thanked us ever.

Thank you.

I didn't get a free pair of boxer shorts and now you are the co-founder of a consultancy call the garage Soho and you also teach an 8-week course called the Business of creativity and this was particularly wants to get you into find out what you would get on an 8-week course.

Creativity was the first thing is what we called it The Business of creativity because ultimately with all the technology everything that you can do out there an AI appearing like that the differentiator is going to be your application of creativity your ability to imagine something better and what we try and get businesses to understand the first water realise they are all created.

We're all creative.

I already said that and the the very Foundation of a business is a creative act starting a business as a creative act what you going to do what you going to call your product? What's it going to look like? What's it going to sound like all these things are creative acts of the danger in our economy? Is that people see what a b c creativity is something that you were occasionally engaging which driving everything innovation.

Nobody would say more we don't need information.

Do it innovation is driven by creative thinking.

Defining it two types of creativity.

What are the core of creativity all of these things make you better at it? I'm quite interested.

How everyone in there different ways highlighted.

How question helps drive their creativity whether it's Deco you're thinking about well, what questions do I want to ask as a priority or two guys from the TV world saying look which one to answer questions and I guess when you were creating a brand new would also have been thinking.

What are the questions? I need to answer on behalf of the audience for this, but she's something more fundamentally new me laugh at this, but that's the greatest advertising the greatest communication the greatest interviews seeks the truth and it's the truth that is motivating.

It is the truth Drive people because ultimately what we all want is power power to persuade power to inform power to get more out of life all of those things and is that from?

Sing of the truth which gives us power and that is at the core of creativity Decker I can see you listening intently here and you look like you're ready to answer the question what percentage you was obviously a 20% god.

I can't spend my life in my head thinking of I just can't stop thinking of ideas, so I don't engage with other things that is terrible in some ways, but when you're teaching creative.

Did you believe in the importance of the processes always never the story of Lennon and McCartney being kind of locking themselves in a room and saying I don't come out until you've got a head.

Do you think that can that can bring about moments processes can be very informative.

Very productive I mean wonderful understand creative wonderful things to watch one is Peter Jackson's The Beatles series with a very for coming at 10.

Have a cup of tea sit down stop playing then watch Exile on a documentary on the Rolling Stones making Exile on Main Street chaos vast amount of illegal substances.

No process both of them created genius products genius album so you've got processes of you muscly processes override your creativity.

They must be the servant of creativity question because I've been very inspired by documentary.

I saw this weekend call Deano with Brian Eno it's a generative documentary is quite something but one of his he said was he banishes but there's a no but zone when they created with that Heroes for David Bowie or you know all the other incredible music that is created no buts in the room the minute.

Creative ideas can be killed by you saying but immediately at the Beginning is alright absolutely you know when your you know I don't bring some sessions are usually all the time to be quoted across the country and tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow in the desert I can talk about 1000 ideas that came out of you know one person's head or 2 people working together of course.

You know the idea that you can sort of get people together a make them do these things is just in case it doesn't where does technology come into tech mention that you know documentaries general.

That's a new way of making a documentary in terms of creativity.

Why does technology come in.

You don't have technology will we be able to do is tell each other a story and sing a song you know the Invention of the guitar was a phenomenal piece of technology the piano incredible the microphone.

You know allowed a Singer to stand up in front of a thousand people and sing a song and a one person is generative AI on that list as well.

Of course.

It's going to be me to help in all kinds of ways, but you've got to remember generative AI is is sucking up everything that surround it so except sucking up the rubbish the missing information as well.

It's going to be a major concern we don't really know how it's going to work with you.

Got engaged with it to find out how it works for we have a thing which is intensive the tech and this is soundcrash because I'm coming out the shower and something we doing it but you have an app on it which is about playing live and what's great about that is it people home? I'll playing on the app light answering the questions and then.

Very very similar experience the people in Syria and that is a that's a genuine enhancement of audience engaged and so they sort of things are you know encouraged to leave it there, but thank you very much indeed to all of you for that conversation on creativity.

Thanks to John Hegarty particular for coming and that we are before just before we end up going to talk about the world's biggest dating app for the LGBT community which is accused of illegally sharing users personal information with advertisers a group claim against grinder involving more than 650 people has just been lodged at London's High Court and the app has also used covert tracking technology.

Josh Parry is BBC News LGBT and identity reporter and Zoe Shifa is managing editor of the texts site platform and both of them here on the media show Josh I just start with the basics for people who don't know what is Grindr well.

Grinder is a Wood College health and social media app for the gay bisexual.

Trans community it is largely though as we as We Know used for hookups all kind of more casual relationships is what is kind of famous for and in the years in around it kind of expanded to be this kind of cultural phenomenon within the LGBT community.

It's kind of become a real central part 2 a lot of other cheeses socialise how they sometimes me friend it had a date it sometimes.

How they have those more casual encounters.

Shall we call them and it's become a kind of behemoth in in the LGBT community ok so significant to the LGBT community just philistine on the court case housing everything is that what's that supposed to have done well this week law firm Austin Hayes launched a legal case that fought in London and they allege that grinder has shared private data of thousands of users in Britain and they say that is some of the most sensitive data and that's around people.

Status and also also the most recent Day by which they had a sexual health screening and they said they sure that data with third parties for advertising purposes and they said it was done cover without consent now grinder says isn't a true representation of what happened, but they have in the past admitted back in 2018, but they have shared this kind of day before that but say that they change their policy in April 2020 and they say that that information was never sold to advertisers, but was rather shared with them for the purposes of advertising horrendous to have your HIV status shared by grinders advertisers or third party, but just why would uses be sharing that kind of information on Grindr well grinder has a sort of policy of sort of response responsibility.

I would say is it is it's kind of the word that they would use for the reason that information.

Users who have a profile on Grindr on forced to share the information, it's an option for them if they wished to share that information that HIV status or perhaps the last time.

I went to show how to screen in and it is seen that buy Grindr and also by certain parts of the community as a way of more openly sharing this information and charities like the Terrence Higgins Trust which is one of the UK HIV charities say the actually knowing your status no one when you were last tested and knowing if you have HIV is one of the safest ways to protect people because 97 people with HIV or what they call undetectable and that means but they are taking medication which suppresses the virus enough so that it cannot be passed on it can't be shared by everybody talking about their status no investigators, if they feel comfortable to do so it can also help protect the community.

So they think that is really why people share that information on their profile if

Jos thank you very much indeed that just buy from BBC news from platform.

Let's bring you in here because these issues.

I guess I'm not specific to grinder in the ways date.

Apps collecting data are looking to make money from that data where possible yeah absolutely I understand your privacy and is not back from you and regulators away when that privacy is compromised as I think today in particular the use of artificial intelligence and in terms of power grinder is regulated presumably in each separate country that it operates it has to acting according to different laws.

Yes, absolutely and as he said previously that also applies to many different company, but these problems are not unique to today.

Just finding out this really runs back to you in 2014.

Days of the dating app where is allegation and location data was used by Egyptian authorities required and even a rescue this has been an ongoing issue for many many years in the case of grinder if it didn't want to share this data.

It wouldn't be possible for the authority to demand it or third parties to get hold of it the grinder would have to co-operate in some way wouldn't it? Yeah, I mean if the company is collecting the data has a responsibility to his private but of course if it gets a court order things get complicated the allegations regarding sharing it with third party advertisers is a bit more complex and perhaps and less defensible from a regulatory perspective.

I should say the grinder spokesperson says we are committed to protecting our users data and compliance with all applicable data privacy regulations including in the UK and so he can I ask you about one feature that grinder is offering we were discussing a moment ago with other guests.

Ok, I understand that there is some sort of chat function available on Grindr using AI now Double Down on monitor patient particularly after them up and now it's kind of dropped a bit and one of the things that grandma in particular is an AI chatbot that help you find a date and it also has an AI boyfriend that could provide more intimate conversations and these are currently being developed but kinda executives have said very clearly is made train on sensitive user data including direct messages and permission before doing so I think we can all agree that the majority of users probably did not expect others could even be a possibility when he engaged as text messages and just tired just to bring you back in from BBC News you talking about the dating apps and the pressure to monetize.

What does that mean for the user experience for people using grind ever seen a shift? Yeah, so they went grinder first started what attracted a lot of people too.

It was kind of to think it was the simplicity of the app.

You could have it in your pocket and immediately you could open it up and see around you were the nearest gay man might be too like the m you open it up and you're in the same building as someone it will say they are 0 m away anything too many people that had a real appeal and the apples back kind of that simple now as things have done and they're trying to monetize the app as various different levels of membership that you could subscribe to that unlock different features so for example when it first started you could only see the people who symity to you now if you pay a premium you can search than that.

I'm going to jump in there.

I'm sorry to cut across you, but it right up against the end of the program.

Thank you very much indeed for your help on the story.

That's George Paris

New thanks to Joe Shifa managing editor of platform at and decorating head the chief interview at the Sunday time and earlier Christina McLarty Squires from Ofcom you can get this edition of the video indeed every edition on BBC sounds but for now.

That's it from us then bye.

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