Read this: What next for Channel 4?

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Hi, I'm Katie and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week.

We've got a lot to pack into the hour.

I can promise you.

I hope some really insights from the top of the TV industry as we going to be joined Later by Alex May on the chief executive of Channel 4 and by the co-founder of the production come.

11 which is behind sex education ten-pound Poms and much more will they going to be trying to find out why I Taylor Swift correspondent is actually a thing for some in the media Jake cancer investigations a deadline is here throughout the program a Jake we have also got the small matter of a breaking story that's breaking in the last few hours the fact that Hugh Grant has settled his privacy against the publisher of the Sun newspaper.

I think I'm right that this is only a merge because somebody jealous saw it on page 18 and a footnote of a document that news group newspapers gave to the surprise me that's right.

Yeah.

I'm quite strange way, but obviously now Taken 2 x and written about the settlement a surprise.

I think for some he's been falling the side of the British tabloids for well over a decade now and there's been a thought that.

Prince Harry who's been taking legal action against these papers as in Boldon others to do the same and and he is part of that process so it could be a blow to the proceedings if they go to Thailand January going to talk about that later are all about the first.

I do want to look at some of the issues for the media raised by the cast review that's the report into gender identity services for children and young people published last week Dr Hilary Cass recommends a new approach for clinicians, but what might journalism do differently in the way it covers such a polarising subjects Hannah Barnes associate editor New Statesman used to be in investigations producer at BBC Newsnight and then she went on to write a book called time to think it is all about the Tavistock gender service for children and we've also got Rebecca his head of journalism at the British Medical Journal here, too but Hannah if I could just start with you.

When did you first come across the story?

In 2017 I was off on my first maternity leave and there was a piece of the X Janice Turner which was talking about this really rapid increase in the affairs of teenage girls 2 kids the gender identity development service and she had spoken to to clinicians who worked at the service.

It wasn't really a big so Whistleblower they had talked to her and said what they've seen and and it that it just others very interesting but I was off and you know spending time with my baby and it was also a documentary that same year on BBC2 about a gender clinic the children's gender clinic in Canada and then I didn't do anything I came back to work here at Newsnight BBC 4 News night then and it sort of.

Was the time when the gender recognition act was being debated quite a lot and I was one of the output editors on the program and I believe you contributed to a big program with people like cats talk and and and then it was really a leak of other report in the autumn of 2018 going into 2019 that really got me interested in this was a report where 10 members of staff from dad's had gone to a doctor call Dr David Bell he's an adult psychiatrist at the Tavistock and they have laid some serious and I just thought we don't often get NHS whistleblowers to have 10 from a tiny service something must be going on and directing them at that point were you trying to find where they were in the public domain and you were trying to get what you trying to do.

I just started trying to speak to many people as possible both those who were written about this very early because it wasn't that much around about it at the time.

I spoke I'm was talking to a couple of conditions are met.

I met them face-to-face in that spring and I spoke with a Oxford associate professor called Michael found some unpublished data on a study that that kids are done on puberty blockers and that's where I first film myself and Deborah Cohen who is who is health correspondent the times that started because I was going to say as you mentioned.

I was waiting for your news at the time.

I remember you and Dad Cohen doing this series of reports.

How would you say that was the news that how would you characterise media coverage of the widely pretty woeful.

I feel that way it just it hasn't done itself is not really it's not had a good episode here.

I think there are exceptions.

I think Lucy bannerman at the times.

What time does a really great job and actually Sanchez Manning at the Sunday Mail on Sunday started many years before before we did at Newsnight but it's been left to with the exception of dead who trained but really the running has been done by generalists predominately by female journalists and all of the health and Science Specialist have been and frankly it was left on Newsnight to do it for the BBC and when we did do it with the support of an amazing editor and there's no rain and then later when I took the story on myself under Stuart McLean there really wasn't the support from the wider BBC have a better if I could bring you in your head of journalism at the British Medical Journal would you agree with you say that science avoided the subject I'm afraid I would actually why did they I think there is a real hesitancy and I'm hopeful that post cos they hesitant.

Be more courageous install stepping into the silence.

I think there was a real mishmash between evidence and advocacy and that became a problem so funny I can talk from the BMJ perspective that when you get that kind of very evidence based at the BMJ medical research journal and doctors get involved as BMJ stories.

It's natural for us to take an interest in this new approach of evidence-based perspective and I think what we had to do.

What casted which Henry cast of which was to remove the political framing and focus on what is the evidence and not to be to be sort of Blinds did buy some of the backlash we got from the stories that we ran and when we were very aware of the work that Devon and Hannah was doing we previously covered the

Finals of the cash report who casts came to us she wants to talk directly to the profession that we're an opinion piece by I heard but when we got involved with investigations is looking at the fact that in the US to transgender health guidelines, they they changed so that it would leave the age of initiation up to the condition.

So there's no minimum age of as we got very interested in that and decided to look into the actual guidelines and look at the evidence that was being used to build up the guidelines which I'm being used by doctors, but when you say you wear a banana bombs were doing it needs night.

I wonder whether it's a kind of conversation to have which was they're doing it.

We don't really want to touch it because it's so polarised or is that I think of the time it was just an editor decision I mean we've it was no reason.

Why we wouldn't have done it and I'm certainly we covered some of the work that you were doing.

Pizza House Derby used to work for this investigation editor, so there was always the links on that story and we're looking at the evidence and trying to hold the NHS to account at all.

Did you see that as your role? Yes, I do I mean I think we know we've just published the 8th systematic reviews that form the backbone of overcast report we went to peace on the American guidelines.

We went to evidence-based medicine specialists and got them to opine on what they saw as the quality of evidence and actually what they found is very similar.

What's coming out in the cast report which is threadbare evidence evidence that this was new medical territory.

How do you approach stories when your reporting on this medicine with the same way that you would any story you know you speak to the people who are experts you listen to them and it it's really.

Unique feature of this story compared to anything I've done before I'm a journalist.

I'm not a health during this but generally speaking if you ask questions, will you critique and evidence base really we have known for a very long time that the evidence base is practically non-existent when you do that, you wouldn't usually be accused of the hating or wanting to kill the patient population who were treated by by that that's what happened to you and I think what's happened to you.

I mean I spoke with Dr Castle upon publication of her report in a short interview and you know matches made of of of groups like mermaids and and pressure now.

It is normal it's part of NHS isn't it to listen to the voices of service users of course it is and she said to me.

This is a quote but obviously not to.

Why you're not following the evidence which is Which is what happened here.

There's a question isn't there around quite often with John Leslie looking for a case study of human.

It's Complicated you want an individual who typify what's going on and the kids to keep the voice behind the story if you like and is that the Institute was that the Instinct hearing was that the wrong Instinct I think it's the right thing to do but I don't think there's one case so that typifies I mean when I was maybe they never is but you know I don't doubt that many of these voices in the past week and I'm pleased with myself and some people feel that puberty blockers and hormones have been lifesaving for them and simile.

I've spoken to people for who is been absolutely deserve it harmful now.

What all this is saying is we can't go on anecdotes.

We just don't know we haven't got long-term data that supports this but if you approach this like you would any other?

Area of healthcare the evidence isn't there to support this intervention and an internal antennas completely normal so it's very hard to catch an average patient experience right and if we look at what cassian Andor vitcas writing a report is one of the major challenges for the review has been the difficulty and having an honest debate the people with different views can find it uncomfortable to sit together in the same room or on the same stay that's slightly points to the sort of Culture Wars conversations of feelings on this subject, what record did you feel any under any pressure from any groups as to how you cover this subject? Yeah absolutely we did not just talking about the you know the online retribution that we got off to publisher American story.

I think we had we had their reflections within the profession.

Obviously who have very strong.

Yes, and I think that we to deal with it.

You know we have to hold a line and say you know just because your professional Society doesn't mean that you have the appropriate skills to praise the evidence that we've been focusing on evidence-based medicine treatment for many many decades particularly around too much medicine.

So that be for a gestational diabetes or thyroid cancer.

So what we had to do a treat this as part of that so that gender-based care for Adolescents was and it was an issue was it an issue of too much medicine Jake and if I could bring him from deadline.

I wonder what your assessment of the movie of how the media reports on trans issues, am I supposed to know whether the media has a role to play and polarising opinion could actually be bringing people together potentially I think it is a pinion.

I think what this shows is that newsrooms around the country are treating.

This is a cultural story rather than the health and

One and it's Testament to the news night that the story was pursued in this way and I think it's a real shame that original journalism is being gutted Newsnight now and we may not see stories of the Silk in the future from that particular show the statement said you know we recognise it's an important topic with proud that I broke the story while at the BBC with Newsnight we understand people many people have strong views on the topic and we remain committed to covering the topping in partially for the benefit of the audiences.

We serve and a date all the things about stories and made by news editors according to the events of the day.

We won that I was running about with Newsnight was actually that was a place to explore complex topic and a controversial topic without putting out on the main bulletins where you can actually it potentially could inflamed tensions.

I don't know what you think about that.

Or where you begging the BBC to cover your story more widely, I totally agree with what Jake said that this is always been Healthcare it's a special.

It's part of specialist commissioning of NHS England it's not a cultural story and yet one of the things that that Debbie and I were very keen to do and we insisted upon and I continue to insist upon as I as I went on is that when out stories written up for online for example that they sat on the health pages now.

It was a battle even get those pieces online at all, but it's striking isn't and I don't mean any disrespect because I'm very I think he's an excellent report about the first time our health editor out.

It's the first time the BBC health editor cover the story was on the day of the cast report now.

There's a whole team of health specialist here and they haven't touched it so I

You know it's lovely to hear that.

They're proud of it, but I don't I don't think I don't think the BBC has covered this in partially or if you took away every article written by either myself or my son.

I don't think if you only consume BBC news in this country would have any idea but there has been debate over the evidence of this area of health care for vulnerable children and Jake Hannah says the BBC not covering it as widely as they should have what's your senses somebody you previously worked at the times of whether you know how those newspapers how places approach these issues and and the impact they have to write about them because I drive huge engagement and interest and I was encouraged to pursue stories where the media and these and these debates intersected because they were controversial because they stopped opinion and for the BBC

Often finds itself at the centre of the storms when it's reporting on these issues people on both sides of the argument criticise the coverage is often had to make apologies.

I mean it's no probs ample is apologised to JK Rowling twice in the past year or so because she's been accused of being on there and it's an incredibly delicate balancing act.

I think the BBC at the end of the British Medical Journal I said say is that in the absence of evidence don't we have to with Janice listen to the voices of people in pain.

Yes, we do but I also think this is a call to improve scientific a monk's health not just help against politicians because what we saw was the rules of mismash of

Can I activate blogger might be places that has a higher place or cinestory alongside a research methodologist, but just didn't really make any sense so I think that there should be a cure for foot for the media to step into the silence and just be more confident about asking those questions feels like a good moment dental.

I'm afraid Rebecca James at from the BMJ and British Medical Journal Anna Barnes now the New Statesman privacy of his night at thanks so much for coming on the media show thank you, but I want to now return to the story I mentioned at the top of the programme that Hugh Grant has settled his privacy case against news group newspapers if you remember he was play me what's called unlawful information-gathering by sun journalist in a bad way of his flat enough flat and office and bugging of his car all the Night by news group newspapers the actor was one of a number of people including Prince Harry who is suing the publisher of the sun in the

Caught and Jake and Alana still here and we'll be through the program.

What happened.

I think we don't know the terms of the settlement, but you can't have made very clear.

He did not want to do this.

He talks about reluctantly settling he said that he had been paid an enormous Honour of money to to put these claims to bed and he would be using that cash to read repurposing it through his mission hacked off which is a campaign group against some of these excess IV's in the media of the allegations of these successes explain does me why he felt he had to do it was quite interesting by nursery understand to do with how our legal system works at which is he says that he could offer this amount of money which is an enormous Summers you say then he's told if he said he tells it down and proceeds in the civil court then if you

Who says even if you end up being offered less than the settlement that was made pre-trial even buy £1 that means you have to pay all the other sides cost as well as his own and he said his lawyer said that probably amount because he's going to about 10 million and he said your night.

I'm saying at the fancy.

He didn't want to do that is clearly got a limit to what he is prepared to do in terms of his fight it and and and this is a fight as far as he's concerned.

He is as I said earlier is a Thorn in the side of the tablet newspapers.

He settled twice.

Previously said Pat is not massive surprise settles phone hacking claims against the news of the world and also had a similar came against Mirror Group newspapers both of which were recently and so well in the last decade at the very least so yeah, I think for for the newspaper themselves.

This is a stink that stubbornly refuses.

Lift and newspapers statement saying you know they apologise unreservedly in 2011 to the victims of packing voicemail interception by the news of the world since then the financial damages to people with proper claims.

He granted maybe claiming.

It was a billion pounds of already paid out.

I think that's lawyers cost and settlement but what they say is there a number of disputed claim still got the civil Court some of which seek to involve the sun the sun does not accept liability or make any admissions to the allegations and they point out the judge recently will get some of Mr Grant claim.

That was a bit about hacking out of time and they've reached agreement on the rest of it without admitting any liability.

So that's what they say I suppose what the question is like of these cases a lot mainly involves Prince Harry has got a lot of them coming down the tracks and that have been coming down the tracks guess the question is is Prince Harry going to be the last man standing is he the only one who has pockets deep enough to keep going?

Not accept a settlement, would you expect that he might settle at some point suggest that the news UK might be trying to pick people off and to settle individual claims are still about 40 claims unresolved and heading to trial in January alongside Prince Harry but this is this is a Vendetta him and he has shown that he's got results you got results against the mirror in December last year in a landmark ruling and my instinct is he wants to the biggest scout possible and that would be Rupert Murdoch I think I want to turn to somebody who's even bigger than Prince Harry or Rupert Murdoch you could argue.

It is she is Taylor Swift's family in the headlines.

She's a massive driver of traffic for the media even bigger this week as her 11th album The took some poets apartment is out on Friday at promo video for it dropped on.

Night and of course anybody with a teenager and did anybody else will know that her ears talk comes to the UK this summer the film version has become the most viewed music film on Disney plus and Disney birthday a ridiculous amount of money to start streaming at just a few weeks ago and ITV's this morning has appointed.

It's first Taylor Swift correspondent joining me is Laura Snape's guardian deputy music editor who writes a weekly Taylor Swift newsletter called Swift notes for the Guardian and August survivor Bloomberg economics reporter who coined the swift and omics Laura and thanks so much for coming on the media with you.

Why did you start Swift notes?

More sober analysis of her but I do think she's scale about it and what is it like covering Taylor Swift Mean on it to coming US election to also do you know it's department it doesn't have an apostrophe on it.

I've read all articles about what that means.

You know you.

Are you free or are you waiting to see why it has no apostrophe?

And has that changed over time the album folklore and evermore as a more adult audience because they made in park with the national and a tear of adult listeners who hasn't paid attention time before suddenly woke up to her and realise that you know this is a smart songwriter not somebody written off.

Just sort of superficial pop star and a combination of that Andy stratospheric economic impact of the resort has made people realise like this is a very serious artist and business with that said that from the airport from the ears to align with make her the 36 smallest nation in the world on that alone in terms of GDP countries in the world.

And you are rare because you have actually had an interview with Taylor Swift she's a difficult person to pin down for an interview.

I'm being Colchester for got a few years now at the BBC News interview with Taylor Swift as yet.

What was that like? I think you went to her but apartment in Nashville was it not meeting snake away, but then you know for somebody who's so sort of thing is I think I got about 10 minutes more than what I've been allowed for but it was surprisingly loose experience that somebody who is so sort of monumental.

You know where the intermediate afraid to be critical of her now.

Is she that big?

Bruce Lee actor about everything you do about her because she is going to be more responsive things that they think you know particularly egregious examples of inaccuracies scared to be critical about her because she's got the very best online but I do think that serious news organisations are still taking her account about her business.

You know that the most favourable to let you know music last week and have been with the only universal artist who is still on there.

Just playmags that that that shows her power right that she's taking it as long as a back on TiK ToK just explain why the universal music group label, which is the biggest in the whole world is one of the earlier this year.

They called all of the catalogue and publishing catalogue from tiktok in a dispute over some she's the only artist whose managed to get back on there.

I think it's believed that she broken a deal with.

Independently and because she's a big she is allowed to make his actions from my contract, but it is interesting that you know like Ariana Grande and Billie eilish have not been able to do you also made decisions and specifically spoken to write well, let's bring in Argos the survivor from Bloomberg economics well.

Give you the economics reporter at Bloomberg and as I said earlier you coined the term Swift and onyx how did you start recording on playlist with a personal question which was why can't I get tickets red SO14 and 20-22 trying to get tickets for myself and they were sold out immediately it so the next morning any mean I got like you said I'm in economics reporter so cover things like inflation.

Did ask ourselves this question? What does this say about the US economy really because I don't know to what extend people in the UK were following but what's happening here but back then in 2020 to everyone in all of the Wall Street Academy is really expecting want to come over early so the whole Taylor Swift the main story seemed a little off.

So that we started looking into Swift and all makes of would eventually became Swift and almost irrelevant.

That's what you meant by Swift and just became a theory about sad about the what's consumer.

I know about the global consumer.

What do you think it says?

Because before the pandemic and I don't want to get to 1k here but before the pandemic.

We did see people spending more on services and of course when we were locked into our homes during the pandemic every when on Amazon in all the same everyone was buying goods online so we kind of like for a guy about experiences and then the story that it was that in a way it open the Floodgates sephora services panic, so it's not a table that was the only one driving spending and they was because eventually we saw barbon, Hymer and Beyonce but she did Excel data recovery in a way, so would you as an economics reporter? What do you think the economic impact of the errors tour is so it's massive Economic and technical term massive I like it.

I wouldn't say that.

I think that's just my own personal view, but you do have a data support.

So in a way I feel like the key word here is react elevation.

It's not that people wouldn't be staying at hotels or it wouldn't be travelling if you wanted for Taylor Swift but I feel like going away which she did was that she said that recovery places like Chicago actually eventually you were going to recover in terms of hotel stays and I love Dad and tourism but she did accelerated economics itself estimated that the impact not only from Taylor Swift herself, but what they call the Taylor Swift driven summer which included Beyonce between hyper and all of that was responsible for in 8.5 billion dollar boost economy no bad at all, then.

Thank you so much so so much for coming on the media show that's fantastic, but we are now going to spend the rest of the programme talking about TV specifically about Channel 4 and it's role and impact on our lives and on The Independent commercial.

Alex Mae on chief executive of Channel 4 is here hello Alex hello to be hear that you're here.

We also have John Wilson co-founder of 11 films best known for Netflix's sex Netflix sex education and is currently working on the second series of 10-pound Poms will BBC One I'm going to talk to Joe later on but Alex I'd love to start with you because clearly you know it's great that you're here and I also think you're quite unusual executive maybe I'm generalising here, but is it quite unusual the fact that you've got a PhD in physics and does it help you and your day-to-day life as a TV person well, I suppose it's unique I could be the start of a trend.

It will be good if you took so many times about how actually there aren't enough scientists in the media.

I don't know if it helps me and quiet logical I can answer these questions about why won't it goes around the plughole one way, but otherwise I don't think it's a beautiful day today.

Did you all

He wanted to work in the media.

Not a really wants to be an astronaut that was my dream but I have it would have been good.

That's what I did 7 years, but obviously feel that so far but there's always there is a kid with watch telly, so it's may be inevitable have ended up in it and you have been c009 and Company set-up I took you round the special effects company Bond films including Avatar and call Stephen outran Channel 4 for the best part of 47 years at what was your day like? What media? Do you consume? Well? I always consume first thing I get hot to the clips because you know you probably do the same you look at the video clips first thing because then you know if the day is going to be a disaster explain what the media.

So that's like you get email to you about 2 in the morning and update of everything in the newspapers that day that's relevant to television.

The media to the first thing you do a scan nose and then I read not necessarily in this order are the times The Guardian ft Daily Mail and I will probably check a bit of social media as well to see that.

I've got a kind of Ray what's going on and all the times where you look at it in the morning, but you'll always wait till the morning and I like sleeping I come back later on and look at that would be a mistake disaster disaster will let's talk about the UK TV industry is facing a lot of challenging issues.

I said you got a PhD in physics and you feel like you spend most of your time attempting to defy gravity.

Sorry for the party.

It's a tricky time right.

I think it's a really complicated time if you think about what's going on in the UK so the average person in the UK watches 5 hours and 13 minutes of video.

Like it's really hard to believe that that's the average, but it is linear live television is still the biggest thing about 43% and 234 minutes a day, but that's a lot of people are also watching you know the subscription services like Netflix or they're watching video on YouTube with a watching Instagram that's a massive change we've had over so the past not that long ago the rise of Netflix the rise of the other subscription services to Rise of YouTube yet.

You still have this massive amount of television watching and the changing industry is all about how do you switch the business from you still have make things that people want to watch the how do you switch the business to make them available to consumers when they watch in the way they want to watch ideally for free as far as they're concerned and that's huge switch that we had to go through and media which is why you're looking at Royal looking at digital-first I mean.

Funny came on the media show which was 2 years ago turn off work just had it best financial results in its 40-year history and now because it's looking very different you're laying off 200 staff you've got back on your selling London headquarters.

What's gone wrong.

That's not changing so if you look at your numbers now about 30% of our revenues from digital advertising digital is really growing about 18 20% of our viewing open digital streaming rights of way ahead of market if I look at this year so far today.

I streaming viewing is up 40% of the big switch for us.

It's had you come out of linear and live.

How do you switch your business into streaming and how do you do that as quickly as possible because that's what the consumer want and that means you have to make a lot of changes you wouldn't be pausing.

Shows would you well last year there was a big advertising change right so last year across the whole market the advertising market was down that's mainly due to cyclical factors and particularly the UK obviously we Stafford recessionary time such as well documented, but if you look at the digital market that was actually up last year so obviously when you get those kind of Cycles in advertising you have to make Changes but it looks like channel 14 to be suffering particularly another linear channels.

Look more able to withstand the downstairs the advertising down turn the market.

So everyone fails at 10% in terms of advertising a nap was unprecedented like we haven't seen that since about 2008/2009 and widely unpredicted so the UK as a market ever suffered worse and you'll see across the board whether it's Amazon or iTV or BBC or ask people and making job cuts to adjust to the market changes and people listen to this will be very aware that they remember it.

Johnson wanted to privatise Channel 4 so that was move it for what it is now.

Just been staying but commercially funders to privatise model you thought that off.

How do you look back at that time? Do you think that was a big wasting everybody's time? I would never say that by the by the public because that's an important differences arising as he said look.

I think it's completely within the right of any government and Parliament to look at the periodically and generally say it's good when you look at that.

Could you get a bit too baby and you change things? I would say don't look at it quite so often maybe reduce the periodicity of when you look at it because it's a bit disruptive but nothing has come out of that because the truth is coming out of the discussions you made a big switch on Channel 4 to switch to representing much more in the nations and regions and we've got kind of 500 rules outside of London now big office in Leeds in Manchester and Glasgow and pissed off that switch.

Probably wouldn't happen if it wasn't for those kind of debate although there are people hang you know your Leeds office has just taken a stick I'm told there's no senior leaders their full-time nonsense everything that's absolutely past use a big Channel 4 News operation with only news broadcaster is doing a national news co-located surrounds Leeds multiple night, but with the national broadcasting.

That's not local news.

It's national news and there's a big Newsroom team there so so so noisy for a company to go through now you mention like the London headquarters building now because we're switching.

Where are represented to make sure there's more people outside of London to make sure that were representing the whole UK and when it comes to your charges levelled against you and it's Channel 4 th of people look at the moment.

They say your problem is a lack of hits.

You know you're not giving people a reason to come to your channel.

Where's your Mr pastry the post office where's your traitors? What do you say to that business is always?

It's right that's normal but if you look at down for last year.

We had big new shows like the piano.

We look at our top 10 shows about 30 or 40% of the menu does about the same for the Equestrian forces always how do you balance existing things that consumers want for longer? That's the biggest change of scene from consumers in this world of oversupply content go back to the old things and they wanted to longer.

It's a world of Gladiators you know hence the world of you know it was that the Apprentice MasterChef Bake Off staying on there for longer and longer but they also want fresh for us.

It's always about how do we get that sounds right about 60% of what we doing any year is new look at this year.

We've had the biggest factual launchers in over a decade with things like The Purge at the jury to catch copper which is like the real Kyrie eleison 12, so I would say look at the actual fact that we had big new comedies to in big boys and big move some of the biggest launches, we've had.

So, it's a really Big Show's and Bake Off was bought from the BBC Gogglebox was commissioned by your predecessor as you don't have a really big show that's coming or watch married at first sight Australia 100 million streams on that this year might really and married at first sight UK maths is a huge huge found that people absolutely adore also like his new dramas as well like in the Hall of the couple next door.

He is normal business to go have they got enough? What are the new heads? You know I think the Challenge for us to be honest is you do that in a world of retreads as well.

How do you keep innovating in a world where you can put gladiators on here? That's the show that was come up with in light 1992 and it does really well.

So how do you get the balance right of doing new stuff which is what we're here for and keeping his Big Show's alive for longer.

That's not easy.

Play a role to play in supporting the Independent sector you know the production companies that make so many of the programs that we watch some already going out of business and you'll be predicted that more will to why are you saying that it's not a fun predictions make it and imagine that people don't like hearing that but and I was in production for a long time so I am quite close to effect it had a really hard time last year because two things happened one was this advertising downtown that we've talked about but also there was the strike in America and what is the result of America is lots of the studio business that's filmed in the UK and those big studio lots outside of London stopped so we had a double whammy here there wasn't much business from all the ATP 250 even BBC's how to stuff a cup and there wasn't the American business, so I feel about going to create a small step change.

Let's spend on content cos I'll be a bit of recorrection.

It's really hard for freelancers because the industry inflated lots and lots of people who are doing freelance work and that was a really good for a while now.

It looks like it's not going to be so good again and also probably with these shifts in how you was watch things they were going to be high and things that stream and repeat really well and gonna be lots of cost-effective things that go on linear channels and the middle is going to disappear so I think I'll be a correction.

I mean those companies the Independent production companies that supported you behind you are doing that privatising channel 4 would harm their sector and now many of them seem to feel let down by your decision to change channel for business model so in future.

You'll make some of your own shows and keep hold of the rights well.

That's not a decision that was a government decision and we've got no plans for when will do that or how logical by I think produces understandably.

Because we had to reduce spending last year because of the same size in front of now the keys and crosses to run spending up as soon as we can this year and next year to make sure that we support them and it is in many ways and please you say that's all very illuminating.

I'm going to bring in Jo Wilson co-founder of 11 films the production company behind sex education amongst all the hits and it's worth staying in 2014 you were supported from Channel 4 India growth fund hello and welcome to the media show and Alex personally and could be more grateful for champs Channel 4.

They commissioned mine and Jamie's very first documentary thing we made in 2002 for commissioned are very first drama.

We made about 15 years ago so the Champions do and I do definitely want to ask you later that your programs the programs that you mate, but I just want to ask you right now.

Plaudits for Alex May on set aside in terms of your assessment that how do you assess what's happening at Channel 4 right now?

I don't really I don't really difficult Phil it's not really my department.

I I can see the everyone's having a rough time at the moment, but you know you what you asked making hits things for advertising and people would say let's make a diary can't make up viral you make a film and it may or may not become a you make a showing it may or may not become a hit and all you can really do is make the stuff which you feel in your heart is exciting and and and and and bring you some kind of job is a filmmaker and so I don't I don't really know much about the ins and outs of Channel 4 what we're doing is we making a drama Channel 4 at the moment but beyond that I'm not really that bigger picture.

I mean that that's what I was going to ask you I suppose you know what we hear from the outside and talking to Alex about it was that you know pausing on cancelling commissioning.

Because of the advertising downturn that happened last year.

Are you sounds like you? Are you still kitchen to Channel 4 you still getting picked up by John Paul and all of these trends all of these couple of all of their kind of breeds that you received the truth is any any any reason the commissioner gives you they don't want to do something is really euphemism.for for whatever reason it didn't sort of grab me to grab hold of my soul and and force me to make it and and and so it's really about personal taste at always really is weather an idea grab.

Someone or not so all you can do is come up with ideas you believe in developing to an extent where you feel they'll be ready to pick and then pitch that with passion and then I will come back to you in a minute and her more about that Jake counter from.dun wanted to bring you and you been listening to all that what's your assessment of Hannah for his right now.

Clearly is grappling with all those structural.

Alex talk about in detail there.

I think it's really interesting the relationship the channel has with the Independent production sector it is quite unique relationship or commissions all of its original from producer independent producers and that means I have a unique bond with them.

They are the lifeblood of Channel 4 and it means when Channel 4 is feeling pain so do producers and they feel it very cute Lee and there was concern last year that channel 4 was passing more pain on two producers.

There was necessary they were asking producers to finance shows that they were cancelling things at short notice and they did those things before looking internally at job cuts at chq and other measures that Alex is spoken about and I was speaking to a very seasoned senior respected producer this week and they put.

This channel 4 has has lost the dressing room.

There is a real feeling among some producers and I'm sorry to say this in front of your Alexa the agitating for regime change.

There's a feeling that produces would like to see fresh blood pressure Passat Channel 4 and although alexanian cats who is head of content of this parish and Newsnight a very well.

Yeah very well-liked by the industry.

There is a feeling that haps fresh eyes could be a benefit to the broadcaster that I think is totally inevitable that when you've got tricky times.

You can get criticism and it's our job to listen to produces.

You know and we can always do more of that and probably but why would say you've got quite a lot of complexity going on here and you are 2 years of privatisation and games do you feel in hindsight that you?

Look up so much bandwidth for you that you took your eye off the ball on other things I don't feel that but I would say it's always in organisational strategic distraction hangover from and we've seen that in you've got to accept data management distraction.

I don't think you can say what's a counterfactual because they're also positive things that come out of that you know on the in other ways that organisations that shoulder to the wheel one comes up with more creative success and as you said we are best financial and creative year is in last year.

We 126 always that's more.

We just picked up 60s cos that's more than there's been an decade so you can't say that's all bad just can't but I think you've got that you've got this immense structural change of the switch to the new digital and then you caught the advertising recession last year that no one.

That's a lot.

That's a lot for producers to cope with as well, so that's a big storm isn't if you look at the switch from linear to digital you know that's going.

You've got to get through that you've got to get through.

That's the other side to do that.

You've got to have a slushie right.

That's why I'm like what's the evidence the evidence is lots of creative Awards the evidence is we spend more than 60% of revenues on content higher than any other commercial broadcaster you put shows out that are actually about us challenging like the Russell Brand documentary last you no one else for years of meditation turns out to be number one streaming sofiane people but I wouldn't say that's easy and all the we've had pain producer bad pain as well, so I totally understand why people find out worrying I would like to talk now.

That's slightly wider question around what gets commission.

Do you know I've spoken to so many production companies in recent months you some recently as you say it's quintessentially British shows that are linked by the wayside because shows these days off and get made are not such an awful, but he has co-productions with money from abroad and wondered what your insights are into that cos that's a conversation.

We had a lot.

A risk in industry that you get the modern reinvention of what we used to call in the 90s the Euro pudding which was a film that was made because you can get some money from France and some money from Germany money for me to Lane you.

Couldn't really understand anything that was said in it and it wasn't successful anyway, so now lots of the global players have to have shows that work everywhere so that can leave but it can lead to a kind of Llandaff occasion massification of what's commission the opposite actually of jewels sex education which was short and clear and it ended audience in a small audience in every country.

Why because it appeal to young people with particular issues that you going through that I'd Channel 4 doesn't do that.

You know I like Irish shows that recently The Rise and Fall of Boris Johnson going to make that the peace of mind about Russell Brand no one else is going to make that defiance last week or three parter about the Rise Against the far right of engines in the UK in the 70s and 80s.

That the bullseye when you make them and they're popular is there something about Britain and are popular.

That's where to catch a copper is something really proud of peculiarly British if I just bring you back in that I had to say I love sex education.

I particularly love the fact that my daughter the first time she bought her teenage boyfriend around with yourself.

Don't know what sex education that was one of my favourite experiences of my life.

I've a fantastic program, but I suppose wondering it is said about it and I'm interested in your perspective is yeah.

It's you know we know it's filmed in Britain but you watching it.

No, it's quintessentially British you know the school could be in American high school in a sense.

It's kind of nowheresville, which works for audiences around the world is that is that unfair?

It's an accurate statement, but I'm not really sure quintessentially British any particular thing this kind of shouldn't have a a style to it over or a tone to it is obviously problematic from accredited by the because unless you have a takeaway style.

It's some it's going to be pretty boring and yeah.

I agree sex education was the film American films and because it had financing from he has made by Netflix Netflix put into the algorithm sex Gillian Anderson Asa Butterfield and high school and then they told you what to write.

This was a shower.

It was made by

Pre-race wallpaper for people is actually developed at Channel 4 and Channel 4 down before my time.

Ok, just turned down.

So we're probably wouldn't be the same Channel 4 but it would have a little more more like and like a British School maybe if I showed you the pitch book that we turn to channel 4 for people involved you would it's very clear that the that the show wants to play with Mum which was John Hughes but woke and set in the UK and that's exactly what is the total winner Netflix is not designer stuff.

They just going to the depot, but it's fascinating a very carefully find every single person in might want to watch your show and has Netflix and put it in front of them.

That's what the album design shows it finds they wouldn't feel chosen fat more than anyone else we really work with.

At the time anyway, they were very in fact that they didn't I set any research with us about the way we should make it I said you make the show the way you might we will forget audience and we talked about the earliest sex education sensitively with that subject.

Did you have any trepidations entering into it? Well, I'm a straight white man so I have nothing to say on this OK for me maybe program involved.

I just wondered if not sure anyway.

How's net italics mean on do you think you search Channel 4 as the home of edgy risky drama? If you don't answer that question a few years ago about the time.

That's when our Nan and we had a show called the end of the f-ing world which was brilliant for us and then went on to Netflix that even more business.

I said yes, but now.

I think I take no because I think what's happened there as if gone from AG call risky to mass is understandable part of their business model and they're brilliant.

They're gone mass and bigger and bigger and global launches, and I don't see there are there any stuff maybe maybe I'm too old I don't know but I don't see that they're actually see you loved on YouTube you know the difference is a revolving all the time that's both the scary thing and the cool thing about this business.

Is it changes all and Joel just in the last 30 seconds or so, just tell us.

I think you're making Lord of the Flies and is there much cash around at the moment to make it to tell us about the project project which has got Jack Thorne writing at Mark and interacting it Hans Zimmer the music Nina gold Tyson package and the BBC Queen little immediately but the truth is a broadcast something isn't actually the champagne popping.

Stopping celebration moment you then have a huge job head of you to find almost certainly a co-producer abroad another broadcaster and find money from and where is usually was the broadcaster get a green light go to your favourite distributor distributor of UK that is very much not that anymore with happening with the set-up we got our cost with ready to go.

We've got the bed together, but it wasn't it wasn't the son of Bite Your Hand Off situation very very good luck with that could keep looking all afternoon, but we can't because the HR is now.

Thank you so much.

Jo Wilson also Alex mayhand from Channel 4 on time from deadline of earlier.

You heard from Rebecca who comes at the BMJ Hannibal lower snakes around from Bloomberg goodbye.