Read this: Live in LA! Podcast Movement: Evolutions 2024

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Hello welcome to media podcast live from LA I'm Matt Deegan and this week.

I'm at podcast movement evolutions the podcast the industry event here in Los Angeles talking to the great and good of the podcast sector meanwhile back in Europe Paul Robinson speaks to Radio 1 controller Alex Hayden Jones about the past year on the BBC's youth brand that's all coming up in this special edition.

of the media podcast

in the news this week the BBC's director general Tim Davie outlined a more progressive licence fee and hit out over a decade in real term cuts after the RTS like Jay did the media rounds rejecting the idea of moving to a commercial model for funding in the UK try telling that to BBC Studios podcast team use of x previously Twitter in the US had dropped by 23% according to data from sensor Tower a global use of job slightly less to 15% and parents get ready for more cocoa melon The Browns owners are planning a European expansion according to deadline and have launched our first channel.

For children older children you'll never escape.

I'm here with Tom Webster from sounds profitable.

We've just been a session that your company was.

putting on

and it's a really interesting challenge and it's not a new challenge.

It's had a podcast get on a plan.

How do agencies decide to put some cash?

Into podcasting because it's always with an event there's also positive noise.

I'll podcasting is going really great.

Isn't it wonderful?

But getting those guys to press and buttons to make sure some money flows.

a challenge

Yeah, and it's you know every Media buyer has the same goal.

Don't get fired.

And you're unlikely to get fired if you do something similar to what you did last year right.

There's a tremendous amount of inertia with it.

And unfortunately.

I think for a lot of buyers, maybe they checked out podcasting five years ago.

Eight years ago.

And found it wanting which it was right that the Tech was really not developed to do.

A lot of the things that it can do today with targeting and attribution.

you know it really needs to be reintroduced to a lot of buyers and

honestly the focus of a lot of the research that we've been putting out it sounds profitable lately.

Is showing just how podcasting is really one of the safest bets?

an advertising because it actually

delivers attention which so many other media platforms really don't

and that's just an education that should so we're we're trying to spread that gospel.

Attention is interesting so one of the things that came from that session.

Was a lot of audio is planned for streaming radio.

There's a lot of streaming radio inventory out there.

People understand radio may be a bit better.

whereas

with podcasts it's not a background listen.

You're more focused on it.

Is that a big problem to?

Communicate you need to kind of pull ourselves away.

from Radio

a little bit and you know honestly podcasting is

is bigger

Than streaming radio, it's right.

It's a it's it's far larger in terms of both share of ear and share you know as Edison reports it and

And also just percentage reach I mean streaming.

Am-fm is a very small part of am-fm content.

so podcasting is significantly bigger than that and podcasting is bigger than

you know many social media platforms the brands are spending their money on so

it really just takes champions and evangelists and people.

Willing to look at it with an open mind because from the from a metric standpoint.

It outperforms pretty much any other medium that that I've researched.

you know unfortunately I think it gets lumped in a little bit with with streaming radio and streaming am-fm but

it's a much more lean forward medium and that's that's really where the

attention that you're buying comes from

Soviet in the US it's becoming more and more in the UK

you can that's partly in America because

radio hasn't delivered the breadth of content that maybe doesn't some European markets where there's a strong public broadcaster.

Absolutely yeah, that's it.

I think that's a an astute point Matt because you know we don't have.

We don't have a state broadcaster the way that so many other European countries do.

and as you know and many of those countries that state broadcaster is

has significant share and they do a wonderful job right their high budget high production.

You know they're they're doing what they're remit is right and we don't have that and we also.

It's been a while.

I think since we've had.

folks

I think right I mean we do have.

You know NPR affiliates and things like that but so much of commercial radio on the States is either.

music

you know 80% of the stations are music.

Or if they are talked it's syndicated and it's it's fairly narrow right.

So pretty much full all kind of right-wing news.

Yeah, right wing news right wing news and finance I really the two things that continue to do well on American Stock radio.

And this this just so much.

I think muscle memory.

At the radio station level that they've lost.

bye not

having practice in putting out narrative.

spoken word audio so

You know we're we're catching up.

I'm encouraged by the investment that I see in the space.

but

you know absolutely we need more investment in the space and that that really I think comes down to educating buyers about just how safe this medium really is so the last thing so in the UK the BBC announced last week.

That they're going to put ads.

onto BBC shows delivered via RSS yes that's quite a big change we don't have adverts any other first one content in the UK

And is it a good thing for the sector that BBC Inventories available so obviously some commercial broadcasters podcasters a little bit nervous?

That big beast is joining the ads party yeah, and we'll look that big beast slouches.

It's way around.

the radio industry as you know like that's you know that's your biggest competitor always if you're a commercial broadcaster in the UK

Um, I think it's a good thing.

I think it's going to bring more attention to podcasts and and that's that's really where I'm going to focus and I can see.

the Wailing and gnashing of teeth about

about running adverts but

I think ultimately it's going to bring more attention to the space.

It's going to legitimize the space.

a little bit more and you know as you know the BBC creates excellent content so it's

it's it's a good thing for the medium.

and I you know I I've read some of the

you know criticism of it.

It's kind of a

victimless crime to be honest with you, but I think ultimately it's good thing for the space.

I told like very much you can.

I'm having to play hello.

Hello.

so you've made the trip from blighty over to America for podcast movement from London town to Le why have you come over so I was

curious to see what the podcasting seen I'm doing an inverted commas with people can't see because it's a podcast.

to see what it was like because my latest season the podcast was a US

Focus season is like 12 episodes featuring salvation American women

and I'm trying to grow this as a market.

So, I thought it would be quite interesting to come along and see.

What the Buddha players were how it felt? How was the success of your American season and how has it made you think about?

what you do with the show back in the UK or do you sort of Double Down On

on America

So the American season was a test for me, I had an Instinct that there's a whole south Asian American audience that I've not really reached.

And I did the 12 episodes and it was.

Incredibly good like the numbers of a much higher than my UK numbers are.

And this is what was fascinating.

They're all listening on Chrome

Okay fascinating like listening to a desktop or website yeah, yeah and so the way the consuming it is likely different as well.

So to me, it's telling me that there is a whole other audience here that I have not really tapped into.

and for me, it's also challenged because in the UK and fairly well known in the south Asian

community

here nobody knows why I am so it's like if you some freedom.

So sort of restart or rethink you you are on what you're doing.

Like challenges I think.

And I seem to keep doing this in my life.

And I think this is what I'm naturally excited by.

and I think this new kind of American

seasoned version of the salah podcast

Is exciting to me?

So you're show it's an independent show yes, you make it you host it.

It's all yours.

You were with sort of a Spotify it's the activity for quite a while.

They've obviously changed.

How they do things so you're sort of yeah with everybody now and back to everyone what advice would you give?

Other people that want to do what you've done.

I would

Say the first thing you do is spend a lot of time thinking about why you want to do this podcast why is it important?

What is it about?

Is it not enough to say I want to do a podcast because five other people are doing a podcast like there were millions of podcasts.

So, what have you got to say that is a unique point of view? What is it that you've got to say.

That's his burning desire to say what is it that?

You will keep saying even if nobody ever paid you anything.

like

I hope people pay me but even if they didn't I will find a way to keep myself up because going it's that important to me and is that important to my community of south Asian women that I support.

So, what is it for you like I really really urge you to think about that.

There's a lot of urgency in the world now weigh like come on get it out.

Do the thing publish it like don't.

I would say don't hate publish.

okay like do not hit publish unless you're

you know like 100% sure this is the best you can make it.

So these are the two bits of advice that I would give.

and also like

remember that what you have to say in your voice is a unique voice nobody else.

in the entire world

has that perspective has that boys has that point of view?

Has those experiences?

So that's the kind of like go out there and do it.

But do it well.

Is what I would say thank you very much.

You're very welcome mat.

So for one concert to another and last week.

We sent Paul Robinson now to radio days Europe to discuss some of the big challenges facing radio and podcasting companies their Alex Hayden Jones is the head of Radio 1 the BBC's Youth Radio station and the best way for the BBC to maintain its relevancy to British audiences.

here's Alex

it really matters because

as we tell everyone radio is a habitual format.

And once for good and bad once that habits in it's really hard to move them off.

if we don't cater to the youngest audience

when they leave home.

And they're independently choosing their audio content and radio isn't in the mix.

That we will start seeing that.

Drop off as they get older into their Twenties thirties forties which is when the money will really buy for commercial stations or the radio industry will start to have a problem.

You talked about reaching people who don't listen to Radio 1 you had all sorts of great ideas.

Just share with us a couple of those.

I mean there's

There's loads as we try and do everything as as best as possible, but the the simplest cheapest ways we find is to use fan bases.

So whether that's artists that come in.

and you know the good practice would be to

Have those artists on the radio but the best practice would be to make a request.

Some content that they could also share to their fan bases.

So that whether that's a TV or a film star or an artist that's playing one of your performances we.

And we drop the ball on their occasionally but we try and keep reminding us ourselves know what asset are they able to share? How do we make sure that asset is fun.

So that we are reaching their fan bases not just the radio stations.

How do you measure the success of that activity?

I mean that is the question I mean do you know what doesn't work? It's success of our own content on social.

Can you can you track whether the people come across the radio One having been maybe for example part of a fan base?

It will always be disappointing like the the top for example the probably.

1975

Paramore

and

reading and Leeds festivals jump out to me as three of the best examples of Us working with them about their

talking to their fan base about the content.

They're creating the Radio One

we see we have this thing called x-ray, which is in the BBC

Which shows live output?

You see the bumps.

the audio lift

as we get close to the that thing happening and it's because they've told their fan bases.

Something connecting to the festival or to those artists will be on Radio 1 you see that.

Whether those people stay with us afterwards then that's a different metric now on stage until this fantastic story about how the most listened to moment I'm Radio 1.

you in 2023

with when you turn the radio station off we sounds completely bonkers so tell that story so it was the end of giant DJ Hunt

and

Greg was on air had to stay on air and till he found all 33 percenters from Radio 1.

And we told him that he had to do that in the 100 hours.

And then we needed some jeopardy because Greg would probably like to stay on even longer.

It's so good and well.

He does so he said if you don't do it 100 hours.

We'll take the station off air and when it got mentioned it was like.

Oh yeah sure you are you know like you know thank you for the jeopardy guys.

And then as it got closer to the finale.

It started becoming a bigger being a narrative.

And we've got down to the last hour.

Now it.

for it to be real it had to be real and we'd all made this deal within a Radio One

if he finds the last presenter.

It doesn't happen if you doesn't we're doing this.

It is not some radio Magic here.

We're doing but he didn't believe you.

He's I don't think he does know so there's a bit of complacency there.

And we captured the final few minutes.

when all of the presenters have been found Matt and Katie were on in London

Charlie Hedges was using our Mobile Studio in Isle of Wight which is where the finale ended up being.

Greg had got a through Molly King social she was the last presented to be found they'd cotton on that she was on a boat.

And so he had managed to talk it black his way to a boat and was driving out to at this boat that he thought she was on.

And and the countdown was happening.

It was the most adrenaline fuelled moment I've ever had listening to Radio

Maybe maybe because I run the station and I knew what was coming.

But then they counted down three two one and if you see the video you see the sheer terror on their eyes when they were like I don't know what's going to happen now and we didn't just close the mic.

We spoke to the control room at the BBC they took us off.

It happened we warned the transmitters around the UK ahead of this.

That we would be going off air and we went off air.

and

I had the right it was me that got to say to the controller and put us back on you must be very nervous about you must have been yeah, also we'd we'd even spoken to off because we wanted to check our licence cover.

We were not broadcasting so all that was going from my head for a very geeky chat.

They're sure but all this was happening and this the presenters like we've gone we've gone but more importantly the audience were like.

They only got them done it.

They're actually off air and they're DAB went quiet they checked fm.

They opened up sounds ah everything was quiet.

And our x-ray which already mentioned was climbing up each time of a refreshed it was like a sheer vertical line up.

And I was like I'm not bringing this station back on until that platter is that I'm not losing this.

And but I'm real sort of back of the neck hair racing moment, when do I put it back holiday? Yeah, and there's a discussion.

It's a 20 seconds.

It's 40 seconds if this happens.

How long do we last?

And we ended up waiting five minutes before 5 minutes off here.

Yeah, wow real very brave but fantastic what a brilliant promotion.

It was fantastic.

You can actually the papers wrote it up as if we'd messed up and that's brilliant because everyone was talking about radio on the next real.

Isn't it? Yeah?

You talked a bit about in car and I think one of your concerns is about in car listening, but particularly with your target audience.

It's slightly out of my remit as head of Radio 1 to be talking about in-car.

This is more of an industry thing, but you know just I just can't not use this platform to say.

Guys as an industry.

we need to be

collective on this we need.

In car is holding up so many of our radio hours.

it is important we have the Tech

You know whether that ends up being a car play or an Android that owns the dashboard.

BBC sounds for Radio 1 radio player across the industry

We have the Tech there we just need to be uniform on what those technologies look and sound like or whether we're talking to the ink car dashboard about having a button.

Whether we need to elevate ourselves out of just being an app on the dashboard whatever it is.

We need to agree it collectively- and do it as an industry.

I've sat in on a few car.

Presentations here and every radio days for me.

The session that gives me the most herrer is the in-car one.

Because you know we're all talking about.

Well, we should be in the center of the dial.

But we think that.

are we believe our audience think that we need the car Industries and the Tech companies believing that you talked very passionately about the power of

live you know so much Radio now is recorded or it's remote VT

being live you really argued passionately for live engagement with the audience.

because

we are not vs.

Podcasts.

We are not versus On Demand audio the strength of audio hours growing is the strength for all of us our entire industry will be you know.

using the different formats

so we just need to.

Know the strength of each of those formats.

I will listen to a podcast I'm certainly not putting.

The no offence to Alex Holcombe my presenter, but I'm not putting the Indie show on if I'm having a dinner party on a Sunday evening at rate.

You know different modes.

It's a different mood, but I will put on one of our on-demand titles.

So it's it's it's it's it's really important that we know.

the role of life

and don't put on Dem

programs on your daytime hours if you are cutting costs and you're saying let's pre-record everything.

Just be aware what you will lose out that connection with the audience the hearing themselves reflected you just you have to work so much harder to achieve that and that's rich coming from me when I have a licence fee I understand that.

But there are even you know parts of the industry that will say oh, we'll be a live radio station full of podcasts.

You know we just need to know there is a role for that when we're talking about the new.

Stations that are coming out from the BBC that are impacts now a lot of that is going to be on demand because it's about.

showcasing On Demand music

but we just need to go a deliberate move this will be an on-demand proposition of music for genre or for mood or for.

archive

and then you've got live and that's and these are the attributes that makes live life the best and we will do it better than anyone else in the industry around the world.

Alexander Jones thank you very much.

Thank you.

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Here he was on last week and he's on this week as well.

You were ages for James to come along yes, and then two come on at the same time like a London bus how many podcasts movements have you done?

I have done every podcast movement that the Australian government would let me since 20 18.

so that my first one was in Philadelphia which was

a lovely place to be so there's two year once the travels around the country and one that's based here in Los Angeles

how do you find this event here in La compared to?

All the other stuff you do is you just around the world?

I think this event is really interesting.

It's a very much focused on the Business of podcasting.

There's lots of people here from the big advertising agencies, but also the Big Talent is as well and it's a it's a good place to be the word monetised definitely comes up a lot here.

Just nature of course movement which is good.

the submarine that you were doing a keynote you would be warm up act for Amy Poehler

Yes, and you were talking about.

A survey you've done with podcasts makers.

about how they get on with all the podcast platforms so things like apple and Spotify

and people weren't afraid to give you some.

tough comments

What that's what happens when people can speak?

Freely and anonymously yes and you don't want to annoy the big platforms that they rely on sometimes what what came out of that research? What do people think of the platforms and the job they do.

I mean the platforms mainly are in good shape.

Slightly lower scores this year than last year and I think part of that is just there are a lot more.

New podcast apps out there podcast apps doing interesting in different things and I think people are seeing what's possible with those platforms, but yeah, I mean everything was.

Pretty good a couple of nickels on Apple side because Apple ID is a complicated and difficult.

Getting you know more information out there about your podcast is difficult so all of that stuff was hard.

And people didn't really hold back when it came to talking about YouTube either.

Yes, so if you don't know YouTube have sort of got into the podcast world.

They allow podcasts to put their shows they've got sort of semi-automated thing that sort of takes your feed and converts into videos.

They really just want you to.

Upload YouTube videos though they're very focused on doing YouTube rather than adapting their way of working to podcasting.

Yes, and I think that's one of the reasons why it's called quite low in some of the results of the pod news report card.

It was you know really because

yeah, it's not really a podcast platform.

It's some people have described it.

It's a bit of a leech of you know grabbing the audio files which are available in.

podcasting

And sticking them on to the YouTube platform where of course they can then.

Put pre-rolls and post roles and all kinds of other things that they sell so they earn handsomely out of all of that money and and that's fine but actually.

Podcast creators don't necessarily want that.

No and also it's very limited so if you're on Apple or Spotify you sort of published once.

With your own ads and up it appears YouTube had extra rules around what you can and can't do so if YouTube have an ad product.

You can't replicate that with your own.

Basically yeah indeed so you are allowed to do presenter read or host read ads but you're not allowed to do.

what the Americans call announcer red ads which completely confuses me but those are essentially a 30 second radio ad

In the middle of your show you can't do that on YouTube so that's against the rules because obviously YouTube want to.

Sell that 30 seconds spot for themselves.

And a lot of people if your podcast you make a show.

Your relationship with those apps is quite important and quite a lot of them do editorial so if you're an apple Spotify user you will see promotions for podcasts.

Those generally aren't paid they're all editor driven.

The fact the podcast is have a connection with a human.

That's something people from that survey seem to value.

Yes, absolutely and I think you know YouTube has a podcasting home page you can see that YouTube.com slash podcasting.

But when you have a look at that or maybe YouTube.com slash podcast it's been a long day man.

but but when you have a look at that then you see

All manner of sort of weird stuff.

I looked and in the UK that was 1 UK podcast so wasn't pod save the UK

the wasn't any of these other.

Really big shows there was Diary of the CEO and that's it by the way no Joe Rogan either.

So it looks as if it's an algorithm that they haven't actually got to work yet and unfortunately that.

Certainly from the feedback that I got.

seemed to be quite a lot of the

Problems that podcasting has it doesn't seem ready yet, and they've been talking about it for the last two two and a half years.

I was interesting battle between sort of editorially driven things and algorithmic driven things Spotify having a big push.

into algorithmic

displaying of recommended shows alongside editorial even the BBC I have talked about iPlayer and BBC sounds being a kind of a combination.

of the two

for podcasters learning to sort of

support / worship the algorithm

becomes quite important thing

yes, I think so and there's a company called OSHA which is a podcast hosting company, but they've done a lot of work on decoding the algorithms that Apple podcasts uses.

in search

they're doing a presentation podcast moving the evolutions this year on how Spotify

Does some of it as well and so they're rolling that information out?

Apparently very very different and if you're in Spotify for example, you will not appear in search.

If you haven't published something in 31 days from what I understand.

I think yeah, which is weird, so that means that cereal one of the most popular podcasts in the world.

That hasn't published for the last four years, but still people are searching for.

won't appear in a Spotify

Um a search if if that if that's correct so.

there's lots of these sort of weird and wonderful changes and it's just making sure just like Google

and

other

Search engines.

It's just making sure that your podcast.

Is podcasts search optimised so if you are a show about?

Media

for example then call it something with the word Media in the title, but don't match any circumstances use the word podcast it's terrible because there are

$710,000 podcasts out there with the word podcast in and you're competing with all of them so can I just say James we are considering changing the name of the show? Oh, are you yes?

We have some names that.

We think work yes.

But listeners if there's something you think would be a good evolution of the media podcast.

all is

send them through.

And years is that one of them we'll know what also by me saying this it means we're gonna have that actually do it now.

It's sort of been on our list of things to do and you'll need a new logo and everything it's going to be a whole the whole change well that kind of links to Discovery doesn't it and try to.

The idea for podcasters to find you listeners.

Is such an important part of growing a successful show what is historically? It wasn't really a Focus I kind of get the feeling up to about 18 months ago.

Just there was growth for everybody more new listeners more time spent listening.

So it was you weren't competing with each other.

Whereas now it's very much dead man's boots.

To find a spot in someone's head.

In their ears, you've got to like bump someone off.

yeah, and I think I mean to a point you have to bump bump somebody off what I'm interested in and what there isn't enough research in yet is

Time spent listening to podcasts we we all see and we'll see you again.

at this very event we'll see Edison researchers infinite dial which

tells us how many Americans are listening to podcasts every week and every month.

but we don't get to see how long they're listening and

frankly if we double the amount of time people spend listening to podcasts that means that we double the amount of money that we can earn out of podcasts on a very basic level so I'm much more interested in that with them people.

but I think yes you know we have seen you know the growth of a number of podcasts Discovery

companies

people Helping you if you're a podcast publisher

Reach new audiences and and some are brilliant Matt yes, but you know I think I think we're seeing a tan of those and that is I think shows.

the maturity of the medium that we're in

James woodland as you're a pod news you can subscribe to his free daily newsletter at podnews dotnet.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Okay, thanks for joining us for this special edition of the media podcast from podcast movement in L.A we're back in London next Friday if you're new to the show one that hit follow on your podcast app of choosing every episode.

My name is Matt Eden and the producer as Matt Hill there was a rethink audio production.

I'll see you next week.

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