Read this: How conspiracy theories went mainstream

John how would you describe the Elis James and John robins podcast on BBC sounds in a word award-winning shirt for a digital Britain how are you sitting hub of world-class content respected by generations to come as the absolute Zenith of digital artistry Robbins podcast music Radio podcasts Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in a minute Nicky Campbell on 30 years of conversations with five live listeners, also after the Princess of Wales is being treated for cancer.

It was a moment for the media to reflect on what have gone before not least how the media had handled rampant conspiracy theories.

We'll talk about that first.

Look at the BBC's future Chris curtis's editor-in-chief of broadcast.

Hi Chris was good.

Have you on the programme? Thanks for joining is Tim Davie BBC director-general gave a speech on Tuesday it was build about looking at how to secure the future of the BBC it was at the Royal television Society you got an invite.

So what are these events like I'm assuming that not everyone can turn up.

No, that's true.

It was a it's quite posh affair the great and the good will they were representatives from lots of the big production groups and some big produces a smattering of onscreen was there Lucy Worsley was there.

I found myself sitting next to Alan Yentob 1.0 is enjoyable so yeah the great and the good with there to here and this was Tim Davie sort of setting the stall out a little bit King off.

Some of the big debates about the shape and their funding the BBC in the future that they're going to play out over the next few years a little bit of the speech and negatively Tim Davie turn to the

We are not defensive about the future.

We will need reform with that in mind we will proactively research has reform the licence by post 2028 looking at it scope how it could be more progressive and making sure it's enforcement is fair and proportionate are the Independent report at this way under the headline BBC could make wealthy pay more for the licence fee in radical overhaul Chris how did you interpret that word progressive from Tim Davie I think the licence fee as it stands flat for everyone to pay the same irrespective of Their Own Personal circumstances that feels a little bit out of time and so the idea that the BBC wants to explore making it progressive.com be sensible.

I must admit I read it more as they would explore where there are potential concessions.

Where some people might pay less or receive.

Licence fee as is the case of the moment for older people receive pension credit for example so I be surprised if it's a piece of work done to explore many different tiers of licence fee and that maybe the more affluent people pay more.

I think it will be more a case of establishing a standard licence fee and then exploring which group switch the side of might have a recipe to pay the BBC going even more radical and walking away from the idea of a licence for you.

It was more the BBC saying you think this idea has got a long-term future just that it needs adapting.

Yes the BBC from Mairead is pretty wedding 2 licence photo and I'll push back certainly there.

They're not comfortable with the idea of anything that moves away from the universal social charge the message from Tim day was very clearly that if if there is.

Subscription model for example and so therefore some people pay for the receipt and some people don't and you break this universal link then by necessity the BBC needs to only serve those people who are paying for it and that obviously suggested narrowing of it's sort of content scope and that I think people feel like is the thin end of the of the wedge there a couple of other words and phrases I dropped it down when I was listening.

I wonder what you made of them today.

We talked about AI for good artificial intelligence for good and also talked about ethical algorithms diva really interesting ideas on that almost like philosophical the BBC has a history of innovation and tech innovation and I think the idea is that whilst much of the media and many of the global media players are determined to use AI to frankly become more profitable to produce jobs and 2.

To make shows develop content find ways of saving money the AI has potential upside that might not be driven by profit and that the BBC could be a kind of an organisation safeguards that which which does precisely that tries to use a i effectively and ethically the BBC does have a long history of technological innovation, but if we look at recent years the technological landscape change beyond all recognition not least because we have a giant companies most of them not all of them but most of them American shaping the way the media works within the context of those companies is the BBC Radio in a position to drive technological innovation at scale.

Does it have the the might does but he doesn't have the money not if you were to judge things purely on her.

You know how big is a cheque book but the BBC is involved already in a number of pilot schemes AI pilot schemes with big companies that it's hoping to sort of roll out.

We don't have any details.

Who's at the moment if I'm honest these sort of projects are underway and the BBC would point to it being probably the biggest British Media Brown the media brand which resonates around the people have heard of it.

They associate with certain sort of values and the BBC and sort of good citizens of force for good in British life was a key theme of Tim speech also would like you're helping stepping back a bit from Tim Davies speech and try to see where the BBC has ended up and where it's going particularly with reference to the BBC Studios were struck me as I listen to the speech is becoming more and more Central to the Future of the BBC it.

Is it away the BBC can raise money in it secondary key source of income outside the licence fee the current director-general used to run BBC Studios he said quite demanding targets in terms of it so doubling its its revenues trying to return many more.

With millions of pounds to the BBC is really important.

It's never going to take over from or tip the balance away from the sort of public universal funding it so it's a super useful addition and they wanted to be more significant, but it's not I don't think they're going to reach the scale Whitwood overtake the main source of income.

Thank you very much indeed very useful as Evans Chris Curtis editor and chief of broadcasts have been looking towards the BBC's future with Chris work for the next few minutes on the media show also in a look a little bit back because tomorrow is the 30th birthday of BBC Radio 5 Live and this is what it sounded like on a Monday in March in 1994 good morning welcome to a new network Radio 5 Live News and Sport from the BBC 24-hours a day at 5 on Monday the

Dates of March I'm Jane Garvey and this is morning report.

Yes, that's the Undertaker voice of Jane Garvey three years after the network launch Nicky Campbell joined Radio 5 live from Radio 1.

He was on at 9 a.m.

Then and Nicky was on at 9 this morning as well.

Hi Nicky on the media.

Show us what is 27 years in the middle of a decent stent with five live yeah, it's no hearing Jane there.

I was just thinking of all the wonderful broadcasters that have been on it and that it has you know into the stratosphere Adrian Chiles fee Glover shelagh Fogarty Peter Alan Victoria Derbyshire the Hall of Fame I need to run and there are little known you had little stinks like Andrew Neil a member at one stage Nick Robinson little stint there as well very good.

It was too and he went on to great.

Thanks and when you were.

Thinking about coming across 25live I wonder what the discussion was with the BBC when they said look you're doing really well on radiator one fully established to someone who is connected with music on the radio from a cross and do something different with us.

What was the pitch I've been in Newsroom since like 82 in in local radio and so I had that that is part of what I did and I've been doing TV debate shows so I like what the Colin Scotland you know a good Rami and I think they said look you know what you want to try dinner phone and I just thought what a wonderful one is always looking for it and I can exit do you want a fantastic news and sport vitality and phonons and talking to people and enter it back then I quite like to see list of phone as we did see how they compare to know because

There's an irony here or paradox.

I should say in in in the the so much discussed now so much angry exchange of ideas and thoughts online brick sample but it's inversely proportional to the tolerance that we have the views of others I think it's a strange thing and it's never been less tolerance of you.

No platforming views that you disagree with know that stuff which is on the mental of what you don't solve anything by not talking about it, and I was rather have to say very often at beginning of shows to react the social media you may well.

Have you that you disagree with but people that you disagree with also pay them up the licence fee which we've been talking and I don't understand that.

Evolution of the phone in and just a moment before we get into that and I was mentioned this to you.

Just before we came on their back in 1998.

I have been living abroad I came back to the UK and was on it turned on the radio turn on 5 live on your show and I was thinking I've never heard anything like this.

You were getting big name guess talking to each other about things that were necessarily the thing I also plaited with the minute all felt in its own way quite radical and quite high impact.

I just wondered when you think back to the late 90s was there a sense that you were you were pushing things on the radio or at the time.

We just doing it on instant.

Well.

I had a brilliant editor called Mark sandell after that another great one could join me and Mark had a great synergy and we we both upset with radio and the Magic happens when you doing a phone in and it stops being kind of stilted in and formula B move on to another level all together when the Host opt out.

Kohler start talking to each other and because they start talking to each other kind of forget there on a phone in because they become engaged with each other and sometimes if you got three or 4 people talking is obviously you don't want them talking but exchanging if it's a very is very serious emotional phoning for example exchanging experiences empathetic way or they might be having a live magic happens and so really I think the best phone is that the idea was that I don't really appear in very much and I think it's so it might be too but it just going to suck you in because it's it's people properly engaging with each other and talking about stuff.

That's in the news but proper engagement to use your phrase is harder to hear harder to support now on 5 Live than it was when you started or a that's people no longer willing to to engage in there.

They prefer speaking to people they agree with there is a bit of that, but I think we do provide a forum and III concert encourage encourage.

It's listening to the views of somebody disagree with the way ahead for Humanity find some kind of Newent since so many of these I think it would be a great thing.

I mean phone is of course associated with passion.

It's one of the reasons so many like listening to them but are people angry I do find it harder type of Radio 2 hosts now than it was when you started well, there's there's a bit there's a dip every phone is completely different as a cliche about a phone.

It is full of empty vessels make it a lot of noise.

It's absolutely not that we talk about social care yesterday to superb colours and man of 80 of such a dignity just telling us about his his life at looking after his wife is.

Mentioned because it's his keep him.

He made those V when he got married.

It was so Finally Moving and telling us in great detail necessary detail about what he has to do for her.

I was just wrapped for about 12 minutes listening to him then another call from a young woman with a child who has all sorts of difficulties and she has looked after that and that's that's a phone and there's also phoning about Boris Johnson and that's a completely different kind of a phone in Boris Johnson is a kind of if we were doing a Boris Johnson phone in my goodness me it's inevitably going to be theatrical a future slightly performance.

Have you got so many people to juggle and so much passion and so much anger the divisive figure in British politics from any along year.

They loved him and they hated him so that I mean that could be back by 9 to 10 and then 10:50 couldn't be.

So it's popping around and it's going from from one thing to another and I think that's something that on 5 Live is a proper ammo in a week.

We can do because that's when you sat in the pub having a lager and lime or a brandy and Babycham you talk about one thing and then talk about next thing and then you go back.

It's our brains work and one of the most extraordinary conversations that you had recently on air has just been nominated as a radio Times moments of the year for 2024 at the areas and it comes from your podcast differently and connect abuse that you suffered at school in Edinburgh something that you talked about with five letters and the listeners to your your podcast tell us about how you felt about bringing your own personal experiences into the role of the presenter.

Will it all worthwhile? It's all been worth.

It was really really difficult but it says it's breaking news today Michael John Brownlee has been found guilty.

It was at an examination of the fact in scots law is not fit to stand trial his off it enough to stand trial bees provide be guilty of 30 34/36 charges of which one was mine for cruel in Criminal assault.

That's NewsNow broke about 2 hours ago and I've been in floods of Tears or afternoon about that because you kind of feel 10 years old again, but it's a massive validation and that somebody's don't be grown ups and the grown-ups believe us that happened in in Edinburgh this afternoon on 5 Live they were great because I had a brilliant programme in corners on on Radio 4 and I came in and my wife said that I'm on about your school here.

Do you want to buy turn it off because obviously she knows everything and I think that's alright go upstairs.

I got in touch with Alex the next day.

Someone got the courage to speak to them and then we kind of decided together to unleash it on my podcast different.

The individuals concerned one who's in South Africa and and others as well, so I'm a dead some alive and it just it just went this is actually they like me to do it and talk about it and I was obviously going to be emotional and had the space to do that because when you talk about your abuses online radio.

It's pretty tough.

It's pretty raw, but I was taking calls and Away With universalized It Was by saying I've never spoke about this publicly before it if you if something like awful like this happened to you and you never spoken about it before trust us get in touch and you know will treat you with respect experts on hand.

I was amazing and online till 11.

I went back to the flat roasting in Manchester cos it was in Salford and I lay on the sofa.

I totally exhausted and then I put on what it was like my my my voice.

Was on the radio and it's a rang him to my editor at 5 then what's going on? She said it's gone nuts.

It's gone bonkers.

We've had to keep the phone lines open all day a few 24545.

Just people telling us about their lives about the fact that they never spoken about it before so it's only something and way in a kind of sort of way.

I'm quite proud of that because it enables so many people so many of my school friends as well this afternoon.

We've been on the phone in tears to each other because they are 10 again No7 again.

They are out again and at last someone has believe them, so it's been 27 years at 5.

Love to be able to have had the opportunity to do that the best thing ever and it sounds like the fact that you could do that is resting on that relationship that you've built up with the listeners to the network over all those years.

I hope so, because you know people trust you and I am I pay tribute as well to the controller Heidi Dawson and to Jonathan Crawford and they said look this is important and they went with it and they gave me space and it eventually ended up in a Panorama programme as well, but no it's been it's the best feeling when when people call because I trust you it's the it's just it's the Essential part of I've loved radio since I was like 7/8 years old.

I've been a complete set with radio and you know that's because you have you have that position of trust as well and it's something that we should cherish and it's something that we should be be very proud of and I think it's something that just not just five live I think something that the BBC we are super when were good at it.

We're really good at it.

Monica be appreciate you speaking to us on such an important afternoon and I'm sure that your time with us on the media.

Show is is interrupting lots of these conversations that you wanted to have so we're very grateful for you make time you're going to stay with us because we're also going to talk with a couple of other guests who are going to be joining us and and of course you want to hear your perspective on what we're about to discuss because let's turn now to the Princess of Wales as everyone listening will know last Friday she announced in a video message that she's undergoing treatment for cancer and that largely ended weeks of speculation about Catherine's Health and about her speculation that certainly went well into the territory of conspiracy theories and it raised to really important questions about what the media does when the consumption of a story is spiralling upwards and where at least some of that consumption is being fuelled by conspiracy theories Nicky Campbell staying with us as we joined by the academic Dr Andy Kelly but first of all Rachel cunliffe from the

Is here in the media show Studio with me good afternoon Rachel how did you feel the media navigated those weeks before Kate's video statement.

I think the media was caught off guard and I think the key driver of the way the story developed was not in what we would think of the mainstream Media at all.

It was online it was social media.

It was message forums.

It was Facebook x all of those kind of areas and the media as I think the palace was was was catch up with that and I think conversations about how the media reacts when it is not the one driving the story and when in fact we don't know who is driving a story a lot of this is being done Italian honestly.

I think those are questions that other newsrooms haven't particularly thought about particularly with regards to the Royal family until February they were having her to think about it.

And you can you can see the results of that hari-kari.

Let's bring you in your drone less than academic specialising in conspiracy theories conspiracy theories feel more central the the diet of Media information that we're all consuming then perhaps they've ever been why do you think that is yeah? I think there's two answers to that question really the first is to do with social media which tends to favour ongoing rapid discussion on breaking news stories speculation and then select for the most outrageous the most exciting explanation which often involves an element of Conspiracy but I think there's another part of the story as well.

Cheers to do with institutional transparency.

I think users on public forums like social media will often try and fill in the gaps where they feel that something.

Hidden but I feel that something isn't being is being kept from them and in this case it was which isn't to say that anybody do anything wrong of course the Princess of Wales health and her own business, but it becomes more of a life political issue.

I think when it comes to questions of national Security as well, but I do think it's important to remember people will speculate people will gossip when they feel that an explanation is being hidden from them that you side writing in the tyres.

Merseyside who we heard just before the media show on on Radio 4.

This is if you like the football hooliganism of the digital age low-grade delinquency from which perpetrators gain a good test and selfish.

Hi Rachel part of that and one of the things that social media in the discourse enables people to do is to feel like they are part of the story especially if they believe or the letter believe that there is.

Peter information some hidden clue that they figured out that they've been told about that the rest of the population doesn't know about I think you've also got to keep in mind that there are an awful.

Lot of people who are making money offers best there is an industry in conspiracy theories and Industry in viral videos particularly on sites like tiktok where those making videos don't really care.

Whether true or not what they care about is the more views.

They get the more viral it goes but is a little cash in their bank accounts and that is what is driving a certain amount of the the radius the better.

Do you think about mainstream Media outlets who reported what was happening online and no doubt those reports were very popular because of the scale of interest in the story more broadly.

They weren't passing on the conspiracy theories without checks, but they were reporting their existence some people would argue.

They should just have ignored them question by reporting on it you bring the story into the mainstream.

Not reporting on it it could be read as a cover up particularly as I was saying they want one of the gap in what people feel that they are being told they want to they want to fill that gap.

There's also a very basic element of clickbait here.

I've had a journalist a various organisations.

Tell me the anytime they put Harry and Meghan in the title will be the SEO of literally an article that is guaranteed to go viral and B hits of an Economic incentive that but what I think I would like to see more publications doing is looking out where they come from not disappointed that may exist but who's behind them who is profiting off them what the incentive is and then it's an actual story is that reporting there? It's not just using the conspiracy theories website and any where do they come from? Is it possible to see patterns on which stories are likely to become a tax the conspiracy theories or not? Yeah? I think it is possible.

Even changing the nature of conspiracy theories of themselves actually if you look at what we might call classic conspiracy theories that is used to focus on one historic event in the past which could be explained in various forms of always say things like the day of k assassination 9/11 the moon landings increasingly.

I think as a result social media conspiracy theories tend to focus on ongoing news stories, which have an air of mystery to them where they can be an explanation which is latest or particularly to do with women or children or scandal or something like that and interesting in stories like that is running very hi Nicky what do you do with someone coming onto your phone and who wants to tell you how convince they are of something but not necessarily with any facts behind what they're saying you have to treat them with respect because they've come on but.

There's a way of doing it very often at this is having a few times, but I'm also recently people can a problem is you're not allowed to actually safe stuff anymore people were you say anything and I said ok, but what you want to say you're not allowed to say what you really think I'm actually when people are dried out of the record chamber on to the dreaded mainstream media and they start to come here themselves a little bit and then they realise that actually cancel that one and maybe just a little part of them things what I want to say is bonkers.

I don't know but it's a strange one.

Thanks Holocaust memorial Day in the very first person on was a Holocaust Denier that's the only time.

I said go away off, but I think I was just about to do that.

Thank you very much to Nicky to Chris Curtis and broadcaster Rachel

From the New Statesman and to Dr Andy Kelly not the first time at the end of the media show I'm saying I wish we had more time to discuss this but from next week.

We are actually going to have more time to discuss this because the media show is sending Katie razzall and I are going to be with you each week for an hour from next week.

Will have even more space to unpack the multitude of important issues within the media are also going to be on weekly on the news channel on the BBC World Service as well and as usual on BBC sounds so do Johnny and Katie next week from 4 till 5 on Wednesday afternoon on Radio 4 but for now for one last time on our half hour edition.

Thanks for listening bye-bye.