Read this: Is the clock ticking for TikTok?

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This weekend about how much matter the company behind Facebook Instagram and WhatsApp actually tracks us and we're looking at plans by the BBC to introduce advert on some of its podcast Hilton from the podcast production company is here to talk about that and they have to ask you hello but I have to ask am I going to end up advertising selling electric cars or dog food? I hope someone upstairs here is looking out for your reputation.

I hope not but who knows we will see about that later, but I do want to talk first about tiktok because after the US Step Closer to banning the app for the Landmark bill in the House of Representatives they've been calls for the UK to follow suit Kieran Martin is the former chief executive of the National cyber security centre part of and is now a professor at Oxford University about next school of government and mitani covers Media for News website semaphore and he's joined us from New York welcome both of you to the media.

Text just give us an update on what happened since that us, bill was we talking about on the show last week.

I know the Chinese government has since called it Bandit logical Robbers logic and some translations meaning exactly happy about the facts that the US has taken a serious Step Closer to the tiktok parent company bytedance to sell the American version of tiktok on and right now.

It's so strange live where the House of Representatives which is a control Republicans head-butted to has passed a bill saying that take us to be sold off in the US president Biden has said he will sign such a bill and there's no pressure for the white house from the national Security Council to pass this bill, but it's in a weird window in the Senate

Cybertruck humour hasn't said when they will take the bill up hasn't moved to the community service is going to be way way slowed down so it's possible for some time and just remind people security concerns the US is concerned Chinese government compel TiK ToK to share data and information in private information on Americans from America the US government or bands from having tiktok on the phone.

It's over security concerns now members of Congress of not exactly said what those concerns in I think there's going to be a larger discussion around that and there is a lot of pressure on Us wallpapers to release information that they say on your clit.

Present some evidence about the potential security concern months the parent company to sell controlling stake and I think semaphore your publications been reporting on but at least one party that might want to buy it.

I think of us a former US treasury secretary.

That's great mate remember former treasury secretary Steve mnuchin who was Secretary of the trump administration and he's put together a group that potentially other concerns about that is well and one of the senators.

Who is for tiktok.

Essentially not the pain, but they sell off as already said that he does not understand.

Why is not support a miniature potential beard to buy tiktok saying that magician himself as part of his fund has money from the Saudis

Runway in a said essentially why would we just trade on Chinese ownership of this for Saudi ownership or ownership so in the UK to completely different the Telegraph invited tiktok to take part in this discussion, but they instead sent this statement about the US legislation.

They said this process was secret and the bill was jam through one reason.

It's a ban.

Is it we're hopeful that the Senate will consider the facts listen to their constituents and realise the impact on the Economy 7 million small businesses and the 107 Americans who use our service but I do want to bring in Kieran Martin you were found in chief executive of the National cyber security centre here in the UK I mean just a very do you see tiktok as a national cybersecurity threat so I think this is mostly an issue about both geopolitics and

influence and control over the internet on the other hand roll and strictly speaking a cybersecurity issues if you look at some of the arguments advanced in favour of a tiktok ban what you might classic cybersecurity issues, the one that Max mentioned which is compelled handing over of data on the Chinese laws, also the download of potential Chinese state whereby app stores and so forth in reality the data economy so out of control that the idea that you can buy on your way to data security country-of-origin basis is essentially nonsense you make yourself feel a little bit better by banning tiktok, but you know if you're really interested in the US Congress in ensuring that personal data doesn't end up on the Chinese government you have to do a lot more than they are all sorts of issues and us our security the US is currently goodbye massive Healthcare crisis which is

Play Russian criminals and there's all sorts of things that isn't doing to tackle that but they're going for the tiktok issue because of the wider geopolitics.

They're all the argument to make a bit more sense wanna simply market access.

You know that Facebook and on and controls at way Hereford respectable argument that you shouldn't let her in the opposite direction the one that goes hold some water, but it's very difficult or disprove is control of the algorithm in the age of disinformation the age of mistrust of information can tiktoks be manipulated subtly in a way that allows the Chinese state control access to information used by millions of Americans are the westerners that is a real issue rather than I think some of the slightly can live once all the data security around democracy and safeguarding are democracies tick tock goes to Great lengths to tell John less that isn't chinese-owned, but it was set up.

That isn't owned by the government that the majority of it is owned by outside.

Investors, is it a very different proposition to Huawei which is a company that you looked at very closely and your role at GCHQ historic.ly both well in certainly tiktok.

Have a slightly old relationships with the Chinese in 5-minutes initials tiktok had a very uneasy relationship paradoxically perhaps as a result of Us policy, but also the results of the nature of the Chinese system all Chinese tech companies have been pushed closer to the Beijing administration because of the fracture if you like in in us-china relations and the if you're running a Western national Security apparatus.

I think you have to Forest planning purpose and a sensible to do with tiktok and you have to assume that the organisation can be compelled to co-operate with the Chinese state in the way that you wouldn't like you have to prove it, but I think in terms of.

You can you can assume it, so that's why I think it's slightly different with support and also by the biggest ministration to focus on its first 4 years such as access to microchips and so on you.

It's a stretch to say that your strategic that a country strategically depends on tiktok giving what it does you and where is telecoms infrastructure microchips and SO40 parts of the critical hardware at the make the internet work tiktok is essentially in a streaming service for this video is on and all the things so you're not it's not this not the same issues dependence with tiktok is there is with other forms of technology on your way out of these issues, but wondering here in the UK how much habitat there is a British politicians to follow the American lead and tried to actually Bandit because I certainly turned up and smooth one politician conservative politician.

Right to be banned the government's already Bandit from being installed on official phones then why not go the whole way I guess it's his argument and I'm partly because you know someone who used to run be responsible for lots of government social security really comfortable most of these official phones because they're quite leaky as well as the Chinese state and government personal phones if you want, but when you're doing government business.

I think you need to be more careful about what the UK should do I mean I don't think there is a question of the UK following suit have actually done anything at House of Representatives passed a bill is Max already said that's nice slow down what the bill would do wouldn't be to buy an initial effort to give It 6 months to wear that happened.

That's a complete game changer and you're dealing with a completely different company so if the earth would jump jump ahead of the US which is actually what is being suggested not following.

Then you'll be in the position of Franklin experimentation US state Montana is the best example of tried to planet is currently tied up and records and the question is this if it's not done by the us as a whole would use ways of the population of tiktok will still operating legal in the US and most experts say that whatever happens tiktok has got six to 12-months before anything would happen to it and that period would just loads of people use vpns and we'll try and circumvent to get access to take that we just don't know Frank at the UK has a system under national Security investment act 2021 objectives.

Lee analysing technological security rescue should go through that rather than just responded what the House of Representatives and this issue in terms of real politic is going to be sorted out and Washington it's not going to be sorted out in London Bridge is the car that you wouldn't supportive and it doesn't sound like I'm just saying that there's nothing to follow.

There's nothing for us are proposing to try to force a change of ownership of tiktok not to close a company down, so we might as well unless the Security Services publicly available information about the security services of Compton British government with a clear and obvious assessment of immediate and serious harm or risk then we should let the washing itself out because that's what they are trying to do is bring about a change of ownership not close the company company seems to have to take tiles playing bad guy at being a political football and this year.

It's tiktok.

It's it's no surprise that this is coming in an election year is attempting to look strong in in relation to China the strange strange for highly suggest this but he was President

Head actually lived in his now against it in a strange strange statement that he says it will actually and empowering Facebook I met and so it's not necessarily a surprise.

What is an usual about the situation in a way that even someone different potentially than the Cambridge analytica situation.

Is it really United States in the US with a few dissenters libertarian for right and Democrats who are not totally comfortable with my message me message.

It's almost like we planned.

Xx do you want turn to a story a story for the weekend in the Sunday Times cos you got Matilda all the data has been collecting on you since you were a child tell us how you did it so what I did was I downloaded yeah all of the data.

That is collected on me since I created my Facebook account when I was 11 years old 16 years ago.

There's a lot yeah, it was a huge amount of days.

So they sent me almost 20000 files readable and understand so they give you a colour homepage of but each website that's been tracking you is a separate file.

So you have to go through each one and each bit of tracking each event is separately have to scroll through analysis of web page so to get into a format that I could analyse took it took me and another days journalist a week and some pretty hardcore coding to get into a readable format.

What did you find so, it was horrifying a level of detail that went into so it was almost every app that I use website that I've been to the last two years including things like my alarm clock app had sent my data tomato.

Housing times in two years the pharmacy at but I used to get prescriptions with sending data to meta the app that I use to get GP services my bag all of the stuff that I had perhaps naively thought was very private information all of it was being sent to Merthyr presumably done it all within the terms and conditions greedy, but how how has it actually been Gathering why have those out been sending their data to better so they sent through a metal pixel which is a few bits of code on Apple website that's collect the browsing activity improve the user is and send updated back to matter because it allows those companies that only gets apps to do is to target.

There.

Are there adverts specifically and to demonstrate the how effective there adverts have been so things like it.

I want to say ASOS and put an item in my basket, but then I don't buy it because it's track that information and sent it to meta metcheck and then say it she might be interested in this and then advertise me that products and then it can tell ASOS you know when I make the purchase and how did they react to your project so Mrs line on this is that you know the following all the laws.

There are following gdpr.

They say that they tell their advertisers that they shouldn't be collecting any data that sensitive or gets away anycast special characteristics of people ultimately is still very opaque when it's actually doing with this data to a Martin I just like to bring you back in here your expertise.

I'm just interested in your take on this.

Not just as a consumer.

You really interesting reference to terms and conditions.

Let me do clicking accept these things all the time we don't have any choice really they might have time.

Would it take to read these things is H and H for all the maps? We use and then this essentially consent or or not? I think this is a really in a concerning story and to go back to the tiktok are going to this is why you no making yourself feel better by saying that you safeguard of data by banning WhatsApp on grounds of country-of-origin doesn't take care of this huge trade and data because what then what was worrying about what happens to the state of what where is it passed on to high security? Is it stored to whom it sold and otherwise transferred what for examples the route from this data back to Beijing can guarantee that that's not an alternative route of data harvesting to save tiktok, so I think we need a really really serious conversation about the the data economy.

What one is better informed than just saying it's all based on the country of origin of a particular service provider absolutely is Max tiny from semaphore.

I want to talk about another text that form with you Twitter or XS women to call at these days because you've been writing this week about the latest twist in the Elon Musk soap opera and he's had a fall out with the journalist called Don lemon.

It just explain more about that is absolutely in is a former CNN most popular and well-known and he fired from CNN over a dispute with the with the previous president but ended up basically going over to see would be one of a prominent figure as part of the video platform push or at the bush into video.

IX under your must have been trying to move more into short and long form video presumably they could be a little bit with tiktok and Instagram reels getting how many words are there in a large social media following in the world news following and was meant to balance out kind of the other some of the other to counter some of the other examples of figures which are primarily on the right-hand being one of them tulsi gabbard being another this relationship included pretty much immediately Don lemon and the interview with self clearly did not do not go over well with immediately afterwards texted dominance saying that the contract was was cancelled the course of the hour-long interview with the number of contentious subjects.

Drug use to say about immigrants and a whole host of other everybody to this you recently called can't in my racing the digital chastity belt you believe that x and you have some responsibility to moderate hate speech on the platform responsibility to adhere to the law area of responsibility to be transparent about when things are showing why they're showing so we can open so I think once you start getting going beyond the law now you bring it on the scale.

Did we actually learn anything new from the interview? I think it was I think it was really interesting it was in lightning.

It was certainly one of the only 4 months we got to see you one really pushed hard on these topics.

He mentions to download an interview that you wouldn't be doing it unless dunlavin was a was green two posts at the interview on accent to be a partner.

Is it possible to show is that all part of Elon Musk winback advertisers to think I think it's certainly was meant to be staying with advertisers in the counter something that they heard remember charges which is that under Elon hate speech has had increased and it's more of a Haven for Conservatives view point out Jones the conspiracy theorist back onto the platform.

You'll see him and very actively on there.

They allowed back on the platform.

It was meant to say that but of course even was not happy with the interview went so the fact it's got animals that maybe does concerns work.

How many people are there in the UK probably know Don lemon a bit less than you know obviously in the States but he's actually and he's now one of a handful of high-profile journalist who now going at the loan trying to build their own direct on the text that forms I suppose we can save Piers Morgan might be in that same classic Gray how do you read it and can they make a living that way a really interesting question and it's I've been thinking about a lot as we've been seeing more and fragmentation in the US in the decline of his television networks of your ship of the traditional cable networks in broadcast networks have declined as more and more people spend their time streaming in a washing shows on Netflix or Amazon Prime Hulu or any of these other streamers use passive news consumers with clip-on cable those people are are going away as well and so it's been really interesting to see some prominent or cable and broadcast personnel.

Move over to see if they can make it as news YouTubers or posts.

You know exclusively on S and so I think the surgeries really bad on what we've seen.

Is that a lot of his personality such as megyn Kelly who's you no problem Fox News she has a fairly successful YouTube show that watched by thousands occasionally millions of people getting that kind of audience every night or an every video but clearly she's brought her some of her hardcore audience in vivo and who are watching her stuff over now that it's on YouTube and we've seen other other figures you know some people with existing audience tell whether you can build your onions as a news just with YouTube well, we will keep watching and let's see but you know there is another story around this week that I want to get to before we close about advertising and text that forms a different one.

I was talking about because the BBC has announced it wants to start inserting adverts into its podcast if you listen to BBC shows on platforms like Spotify the BBC is proposing to make a bit of extra cash of your attention and Nick Hilton is the co-founder of the podcast company Nick hello again.

Just explain because the BBC and adverts isn't something that in the UK without familiar to most British people have to be an insult to what the BBC is.

I think that's going the instinctive response.

It's clear this this on one hand you make a bit of extra cash with advertising listening to Apple or Spotify on the other hand it also to drive people towards BBC sounds where they will still if there's going through the add 3 and it will sound like it's always sounded better way of calling migration people to walk this app that the BBC has a proprietary staking which has been really important to them over the last year or two clever if you think the BBC

Monopolistic Monolith in this in this I have got a professional reasons why I shouldn't be but yes, it's cynical rather than clever.

I was there has been some strong action for the BBC's competitors the news media Association has accused the BBC of muscling into the UK advertising marketplace such an Intervention they say will profoundly distort competition.

We can have a conker players rise across the media and advertising sector.

What's your date because you know this proposal would have to be approved by Ofcom who would have caused by assessing its impact on the market I get what they're so I think he has already been hugely distorted by BBC Record here in the UK we have a really great talk radio tradition as people listening now on Radio 4 will understand we have actually got and not a very mature podcast.

I think as a direct Response to that compared to the US or Canada Australia the BBC has had had huge capital advantages over independent broadcasters it had huge promotional advantage.

And the fact that they don't have to carry ads is an advantage in itself from its content but I'd rather stay podcast that has no adverts I listen to podcast last week.

They had three the same as you can fast forward to the adverts.

I do that you can so it's moving from one branch to another fundamentally the fat the BBC is so well funded compared to other British podcast companies companies working in the private radio space.

That's always been the biggest shoe the BBC to take part in cash and listen to statements and listeners will continue to hear BBC audio without ads on BBC sounds as you said but many of our podcasts are available on Commercial platforms like apple and spots of life where adverts are they normally carry them content to generate more revenue to support the BBC licence fee pairs our suppliers and white tiles and clearly we know the BBC in money coming in today is going down on the other side of things but

Nick I am interested.

You know you you have your podcast company in a how much money do adverts on particle cars actually make a big is without you know the answer is like it can be anything and there are an elite group of an independent podcasts and I think people will be thinking of the rest is politics which is you know Rory making a really significant amount of money and that's great because it's an independent organisation is revenue share with the house you can understand why they want it going back to the Don lemon discussion.

No, that's exactly the aspirational thing you have a stake in the product that you're making which if you're a higher presenter you don't so that's brilliant then make a lot of money at the other end.

We're talking about CPM cost 2020 £30 from programmatic advertising very very hard to make a sustainable products.

Yeah, it's a really complex market place where the people who do well do really well people who badly do they can't make a living and in the last few seconds does it really is the last presenter red adverts make more money and be my friend.

Michael is he left Newsnight went to set up one of those podcast you're talking about you.

It was very hard to hear them at the Beginning but don't do those people making their own adverts make more money way more.

I think you should be fully prepared to be selling mattresses in under this newer new scheme something to look forward to it.

Thank you so much Nick Hilton from Puerto also on the programme with until the Davies from the time your Martin the former chief executive of the UK national cyber security centre and of course Max tiny from semaphore at thank you all so much for being on the program and thank you all for listening for mediashare back next week.

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