Read this: Return of The Traitors

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in our first Media show of the year will talk to the executive producer of the traitors as it returns for its second series of The New York time, Sue's open AI and Microsoft will explain the case being made and look at the battle over which a I can access and use plus the journalist Neil Maggs has a new documentary that looks at spokespeople through the experiences of his home City Bristol he examines who decides speaks on behalf of different groups of people will talk to kneel in a few minutes time, but let's start here here lies the kind and generous so someone who is loyal and faithful.

No wonder they're no longer with us welcome to the game on top 22 people ultimate game of treachery for a life-changing cash five yes, the traitors is back for a second series from Studio Lambert is executive producer Reece also worked on an array of shows including Gogglebox naked attraction the Only Way Is Essex and undercover bars near here in the media studio.

Thanks for making time.

What happens on a day when you have a big series coming out on your exact producer of it is a nerve wracking day.

We were blown away by the success of season 1 we still finishing the Edit season 2 you tonight and we're excited to see how it goes down and for people who haven't seen it and of course there will be some just explain the format quickly from all walks of Life moving to a castle in there.

Is Highlands and they were together? It's a bit of a prize fund about £220000 hidden amongst the group are some craters.

He's not the Tracy's meat and a murder one of their fellow contestants eliminating them again.

It's up to the other players.

We call the faithful to work out who those places are and banister from the game before they become their next victim and the big difference between the contestants in this series and the ones before is that they've got a much better idea of what's coming their way and presume that affect how you went about making the series.

Yeah absolutely I mean this format will be made before so the players that have seen some of the episodes have idea of the game but I'm down to be they were slightly wide-eyed and innocent in terms of how they replay it season 2 is not the case ever had seen the show me all the players who done they came in with the only genders there in game plan.

Don't talk to how they could play it.

We are in season 2 the key format is exactly the same.

I think the game is really strong record first.

This game is a reality so but there's a game as a set of Rules that the players have to stick to and what we we've learned and Robin Anderson having sex invasion as well as that was fascinating is that it could be the same many different ways that inside Pentecost that you put into it and how do you assemble that cost help us understand the process from the very moment you start working on a series 2 the 22 walking in the castle think it's really important as what we love about the traces.

Is that it's a game that all walks of life and all ages can pay it is not dependant on physical ability and it can happy from all backgrounds.

We really proud to have it cost within how do you actually so those people would contact you and say I'm interested in thousands and thousands of people have done that so yeah, what's around 40000 people apply for it.

We've got his casting team at the company.

We were those applications.

We would meet some of them.

We would conduct interviews with them.

We wouldn't have.

Listening I guess where we met them spoke to them.

There's a huge vetting process where they make the program side.

They took part in personality tests and all that would help us put up a picture of the people that could eventually pay interest on the places that we want to people who were there to play the game if you want to come become famous from being part of a reality show there are really interested in that game strategy behind it you have a checklist.

We want this kind of character.

We want this kind of character.

We want someone this old would someone that all you want a cross section of the UK much like I guess it is getting jury.

You might be interesting people what to buy from different backgrounds that could bring something to it.

So I'm down to be wanted a wide age range.

I think in season 1 and season 2 like I youngest players 21 and I can go up to someone in their 70s, so that one big difference between the UK version of the US version is that some of the people in the US version pretty well known so tell us the tell us about that decision that in the UK you're going for.

People in the US you're going for people who have some sort of public profile season 1 made with celebrities.

I think we were the first international territory to make it with civilians.

I guess is that it was today, but they thought I think that's because it's the UK market as well.

They're so I think it's brilliant see people play for the money and I think if you aren't a celebrity that money might matter a bit more to you.

You make me US version that does have a celebrity cast within a party to the market conditions as well.

I think the same to land over in the US we thought they'd get more attention if you had a celebrity cast with an IT person to talk to you about the format about reality television Nobody But a couple of questions before we bring them in one practical one about strategy in terms of strategy the first series was stripped around the consecutive nights on the BBC across a couple of weeks this time.

I'm reading your pudding and

Immediately available on on iPlayer how are those decisions made and what are the what the reasoning behind how you give us the series The broadcast exactly the same for season 2 of this season we are dropping the first three episodes on iPlayer tonight after the that said there's only near TV on BBC One at 21.

You can access other two episodes on iPlayer and on Thursday and Friday this week and then the following week so many three weeks after that.

There are three nights a week.

I think that's really interesting TX pattern anyway.

It's Eric's it means it's on every night of the week is people the opportunity to catch up and watch the episodes this week and then a practical question is about the set those of us who watched the series now.

I'll be setting setting this beautiful so up in the north of Scotland but who else is there? We only see the contestants and very occasionally crew and of course Claudia Winkleman but what's the scale of the production for a program like? This? Is it?

Big production we are things that we create the world, so we've got the castle we create an environment in which the players can play the game and we sort of Leven to it about that.

I mean that are Cameron Cameron women getting around and kill me then and we got fixed cameras as well within the castle that produces we really hands off you watch it in the gallery and that's really interesting because I'm past that maybe wouldn't necessarily do that so we put them within the environment and we'll just see what happens to you.

Not appearing every day or every couple of days to interact with them and talk about how the shows happening all their interactions with conveyor Claudia that interactions come by Claudia obviously members of the world produces that are there but not produces there on the floor to definitely conversations with people all that we don't have like a story that you want to follow someone is definitely keeping an eye on the traitor.

Great to have you on the media show and this isn't the only reality television format which is using treachery and dishonesty as a way of generating interest.

Why do you think that's resonating so much with audiences? Enjoy seeing people being pushed to the limits whether it's physically or emotionally and also to wonder how we would react under similar circumstances would would we be the alpha would be returned to BH2 would we prefer to be one of the Facebook would we be crying when it comes to that bit around the table.

They're trying to work out who is a traitor and who is the faithful that is pushing people to the Limit because there's formats like this design to exert psychological pressure and of course frequently.

They do before we keep talking.

This is a clip from one of the early episodes of series when one of the eventual winners Aaron find it all too much.

That's for votes for Imran for votes for Aaron and one vote for Theo sorry Siobhan to think moments like that take the pressure too far or the other just part of the experience for the contestants in the entertainment for us.

What am I suppose that's a question really for producers, but as a telly critic.

I'd say that men Frankston reality shoes.

They come along way and they've learnt a lot to mean if you look back to Big Brother the second series so alarmed the Producers that groundswell that there was against good and it took steps at the time to put a background details about Jade to show her to be resilient to be brave to be likeable and I get the impression as a telly what should that that's do you use in an election companies in much more mindful about the issues of mental although of did you get didn't even something as compared to the team as Bake Off was remarkable for its causes stress with on its contestants.

It is it has to be said the emotions do run.

Hi, it's something like the treaters round tables discussions and that is part of the point.

But that no I mean certainly Zara points of high stress, but I think that's something that's part and parcel of the show my god when you're making the programme when you're in the gallery and you can see a contestant is upset as we saw him that that clip that I just played is there a pint of wish you think this is this is too much in the name of entertainment we as producers of duty of care to all of you before I come in to say the undergo psychologist in what game will involve and what they're filming.

Will they won't see it within the same as he's well fed him there's a team that contestants day and night.

There's a psychologist.

It's on set as well and obviously we having in that situation wanted a moment.

He went outside you probably if you watch the so you've seen it there a cup of tea members are well 40mm speaking to him and we ask Miss happy to carry on and what's her break-even carried on.

I think it's all about the situation.

I think I'm down as producers been much more.

Contestants mental health towards their welfare and what the price is does I don't need any different to any other reality TV shows for many years have been made reality TV off contestants in pressurised situations from Castaway back in the early 2020 brother started to other shows that happened today.

Will you have people on set who are watching the footage as it comes in and more in case someone is looking not just stressed to a degree that you think Falls within the game but it's going beyond it.

Yeah absolutely so we have a welfare team, but who are watching all of the camera feeds within that car some within the table and Yvette the missions as well.

They're watching that are program psychologist there watching that as well.

If you think there's something really taking testing out of that situation, then we would do that and talk about series 2, what is it about the program that makes you want to keep watching it? Is it the game itself, or is it the narratives that the the the Producers managed to create to convey?

With connection with the net game it's extremely well cast it's got a broader demographic them for example.

You'd find on Love Island which means that when you turn a tractor there's somebody for everyone in the audience out there in the show.

I think the other thing that's that really cut which was just how clever it is I mean everybody came into that second series having seen the first series and the game plan based on that first series and within a few minutes and try not to do spoilers, but within a minute the unpack the game that everybody has seen the first series and change the rules and it's sent out at a signal.

This is not the same as the first use you can't bring the same game pay you bring the same strategies.

You can't believe I'm quite enjoying the way the contestants big themselves up enormous.

Lee is a backstabbing ruthless and more likely to murder you than the person next to me while.

Is it raining in antique shop somewhere in the Cotswolds thank you very much.

They got questions about the traitors and how it's made send me some messages, so before you go.

I've just got some quick fire questions come in for a Radio 4 listeners one person would my tyres how you stop contestants Revealing the given that you've already recorded all of this before it's broadcast very good question Trust essentially we build a strong relationship Builder live come to sing cast members they came to play the game poop in adult come, but they want as much as you know they want to do is enjoy the same as well and a degree of trust of course we can physically stop them they signed a contract with us.

I can continue to work, but that's just said I'm not telling the audience through the traitors are because some formats out there which involved in deciding to see the audience doesn't know I mean if it's like them all that do that.

I think the joy of the face is the you get to watch these people.

What's the prices and see how they pay the game and you're in on the journey with them? I think if you work with you missing a lot of the same when I was wondering but they're coming from someone else saying what happens if all the treasures of found early on do with a format that can't run as long as the BBC would like it to know but I mean the game like I said the game that has rolls and say the Tracy's opportunity opportunities of the chance for other people to join them and say that would ensure that they would get to a certain point in the game with members still intact but with the endgame.

He wants to race again game is the players get to choose when the game stopped which is about trust and say we could have ended up with the finale that is consistent, but there was still would have been fascinating to see what they trusted their belly pierced enough to end the game so many of the questions were practical ones someone the saying at the end of the day when they're all the contestants leave the castle, but one of them end up murders in murdered in inverted commas.

How do you avoid the others knowing that they've been plucked out from wherever they're staying.

I would love to tell you that we haven't got to make a season 3 of The Magic alright but

Quite an operation get it all away from me.

I would say the biggest part of the secrecy and keeping the traitors secrecy and say that's a huge military operation in terms of first names of the plugs for making 11 goes home separate cars and thanks for coming and I appreciate it.

Does my cotton from Studio Lambert thanks also she born sinner and the traders Returns at 9 p.m.

On BBC1 and BBC iPlayer as you've been hearing.

There's also a new visualise the traitors on Coke on BBC iPlayer and on BBC sounds that next on the media show let's turn to a subject.

I'm sure we're going to talk about a great deal in 2024 because the new what times is suing open AI which is the owner of chat GPT it's also suing Microsoft to have a big stake in the company the corrugation is that the New York Times copy has been infringed by using millions of articles to train chat GPT in a moment will speak to Vivian sugar from Aspen digital the first of all clear Atkinson as whether she's founder of the media mix.

And newsletter megaphone, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Just tell us the core allegation that the new what times is laying the door of Microsoft and I mean the allegation is very simple.

It is the chat GPT this product as he said of open AI is effectively lifting the content lifting thousands of stories over decades to answer questions that people input into chat upt and viewers.

He may not know what that is.

It's kind of like Google it's a bit of a change in its used for business purposes if you want to write an Email it can formulate an email for you or business plan or create a book even and so the Times is saying you know your you are in fringing on a copyright.

You need to pay for it.

They're not the only people saying that that 80 has just accepted a payment from open AI

The ability of the company to crawl its news services, so did Axel springer politico and Business Insider so what was seeing here is the time for payments that saying you can licence this stuff, but you've got to pales and potentially this lawsuit.

Could have a I paint brilliant very high Stakes game.

This is part of the statement the New York Times as given to the BBC saying if Microsoft to open a I want to use my work for commercial purposes the law requires that they first obtaining permission they have not done so we also have a statement from open AI which says we respect the rights of content creators and owners and are committed to working with them to ensure they benefit from AI technology and new revenue model we hope foldable find a mutually beneficial way to work together as we are doing with many other publishers well.

Let's bring you in your executive director of aspen digital you previously held.

Trolls with a range of major Media organisations including NPR New York Times NBC CNN and Twitter what's your reading of the fact that the New York Times has turned too well, this is a very very very big deal the outcome of this loss of whether it's cash or not.

It's a significant consequences that are going to rip off both throughout the global publishing world not even just news meeting for all the Publishing and will rip off for a while all of these emerging Titanic on AI companies and depending on how it plays out.

It could lead ultimately not be too dramatic but to really an Extinction event almost for one of the other and there's a lot anyone says that we don't need to get in to hear about copyright and fair use and it's not these AI computer not really happy.

At the end of the day when was saying when I use your story and with the New York Times it demonstrated in their loss when I am a member of the public.

What's in the first paragraph of the church ept will spit out the second paragraph almost verbatim and they show that time and time again so the New York Times of saying give us a lot of if they do that is going to open the Floodgates for every single pub sure to ask for a lot of money, but we know in some cases deals already been done the example the German Media come spring it and open AI of an ounce to Global partnership which in their words will strengthen independent journalism in the age of artificial intelligence.

You don't just read this lawsuit from the New York Times as part of shh in which rather than leading to extensive extension for one or the other is more likely to lead to a deal it nearly to a deal but the fact that then you're doing with opening and they were not able to strike with you.

This lawsuit the price tag has gone up astronomical some people talking about you know that begin with b regardless of whether it is going to open the photos on the fattest the New York Times with all due respect to BBC and all my other employers and the Guardian where the New York Times is the £800 gorilla in the world in the movies that they are going to have a profound profound impact and so I think deal and the apdl or just going to be very small tiny little candle events and what could happen and giving what Vivian saying Claire do you think that until this is resolved will like this Seymour reticence from not just open AI but other AI developers in taking consent any doubt at all that they may not be able to that.

You just read out that open a I said that they respect content rights.

That's absolutely laughable.

They don't as Vivian said there's stripping the neon signs of any links practically verbatim offering those details to users and depriving big media companies of revenue in the future and that's a really big deal, but let's keep checking on this as it plays out in the weeks and months to come.

Thank you very much for the both of you.

That's player I can see from the media mix podcast and Vivian Sheila executive director of aspen digital on the media show a new documentary from the journalist Neil Maggs it's called bugs person said looks at those who speak to the media on behalf of Communities The Gatekeepers if you like he were the link between Communities and the media Neil here.

Will talk to you in a moment, but here's this program.

Can't let you in tonight unfortunately.

We're not just no trainers allowed.

I'm living in Bristol and this is a story about Gatekeepers it's not just painted teachers is bank managers is the person who decides to give you a job all around us and discharge of you get sin they control what information flows out and the kind of community or an institution by now.

Thanks for coming in so when you talk about Gatekeepers in the context of your program.

You're really focused on the people who stands between Communities or groups of people and then the media coverage about those groups of people is that right yeah and the relationship the symbiotic relationship between both so people that would be a gas self-appointed community will often stand up and talk about particular issue and the media will respond to that accordingly and why did you want to look at it and in particular? Why did you want to look at it in Bristol I think I'm from Bristol

My background is in community development before I worked in the media and often we could sit around so people I worked with and see a particular issue particularly challenging in the community that would be covered in the press that person well.

It's been to him ago here again.

It was the same kind of people and often they weren't necessarily on top of what the particular situation or the story was and that we stay for straight me and kind of Eric me a bit and then as time and also crossed the Rubicon I'm moving to medias agenda this and it's something I've always kind of thought of a and now having worked in ticket online without such a quick fast turnaround.

I've gone I realise that that's the reality really the journalist.

Just don't have time to talk create a new Once brought picture.

They have to respond quickly is people that just give them a particular, but there may be some journalists.

I'm sure who covered this program saying they can move its speed and provide.

Can you give me an example of a story particularly when relating to the Bristol where you feel that.

Has been lacking where Communities haven't been fairly or accurately represented.

Yeah.

I mean there's been lots over the years and I think there's a particular happens often between between in Sawston Facebook with minority groups where a person will come forward to talk back tickler, if she that isn't necessarily reflected in the obvious so big national story in Bristol would be the Colston statue coming down for example which was presented that you know Bristol got together and pull the statue down and you know right.

It's the Liberal left city that sort of is all on top of page with that reflected nationally there's a counter-narrative to that really which is there a lot of people right.

You're wrong me whatever your view is felt that he was a great benefactor of the city of upload.

You know about this happening and that wasn't necessarily reflect we didn't see that much but more broadly on the issue of who is speaking on behalf of one particular opinion or one group of people or one area of a city whatever the example might be inevitably always.

Imprecise device through which the media communicates and understand because no one person will ever perfectly represent a group for sure for sure I guess it's that isn't if I think for me if you still see the same person coming forward I speak to HR call Delroy who spoke about how he was always within the black community for example that he was always sort of third or fourth on the list that he felt that it was the same people talking all the time he works of young people have a wife a broad and the voice is out and what did you hear when you pointed out to some people who backs were more positions were the ones who journalist rang up and said will look who appointed you to be in this position.

What was their defence for the the role? They played in trying to be an intersection between groups of an immediate.

I mean there is a degree of Defence in this with some some people with others.

I think there was a an acceptance that they saw there are actually is as representing and protecting.

Without somebody to intercede a story can be inaccurate or somebody can be friend under a bus say they felt that they would be protecting their particular community once I was 2 years old at least one of your the people you spoke to mention.

This is that it's not a course automatic that one particular opinion or one group of people would have a spokesperson.

Of course yeah, it's been talking about reality TV in the way.

This is constructed reality really you know is that what we see the news is a decision and editorial decisions been made this person has come forward to talk about particular issue reacting and responding to that.

I'm actually is that always the true picture the true reflection and it's so difficult to get to what that is anyone to the German school DJ's school in Cardiff to try and understand that I mean to students and academics.

What were their thoughts on how the media could better approach who is representing certain sections of a story or certain sections of a city what is interesting because

Think they were younger master's degree students and their early 20s and that kind of actually to watch what gatekeeping and who controls information is very different than say my generation our generation and it was more about social media and actually that you you know you have people it will bottleneck information online you have people that will effectively react to something and they didn't really have a choice of understanding of a community get you in the traditional sense.

I would appreciate you coming in thank you very much indeed as we listening you can hear a spokesperson said on Radio 4 on Monday the 8th of January at 8 p.m.

You can also listen back to it on BBC sounds many thanks the Neil Maggs thanks also to I guess earlier in the program.

We heard from my cotton from Studio Lambert from the writer and critic Siobhan synnot from Aspen digital and Clare Atkinson the host of the medium next podcast from me and all of the media show team thanks for listening.

Bye bye from BBC Radio 4.

Life can be unexpected this was not the wind is not a storm this was a tsunami that when confronted with change humans are remarkably I knew that moment as I fell to the ground that I would recover more I'm Dr Sian Williams psychologist and presenter of life-changing the programme that speaks to people whose world been flipped upside down and transformed in a moment if I had to live my life again.

Would I ever want to go through all I went through there's a very simple answer to that.

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