Read this: Martin Lewis, Britain's most influential journalist?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 today's edition going to speak to Martin Lewis easily one of the best-known and most trusted journalists in the country is money Saving Expert website is a runaway Media success and we're gonna learn about it and also how the company and the man behind it are adapting to a changing Media landscape Martin Lewis welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me now.

I've got the money saving expert on my phone if I look bottom right there's a there's a label a tab which says MSE money Saving Expert chat GPT when did you decide to do that to text her list so we were a long time before it really hit the the media sphere and when I first saw chat ubti.

I had a pretty good idea that this was actually a threat to many intermedia institutes and I lots of people talk.

It is at the benefits.

It will give because of course it can write so therefore you can think about cheap coffee being written something we will never be doing on MoneySavingExpert whereabout detailed quality investigative journalism.

We are not going to be alone chat gpt2 right, but I know people who work in other places who want content and already finding hey can write better than you Lee untrained graduate coming in so we may as well use it but my biggest problem with it when I saw the first versions was twofold won the information wasn't sourced so who are you trusting when you're asking the questions about finance or other matter to you and to the information wasn't credited so in fact of Lee he was this new likely to be big form of technology that was stealing the intellectual property rights of the organisations out there who need their intellectual property rights cos that's what pays for their quality journalism and so I was I saw it as both a challenge and a threat and an opportunity so I went into my team pretty.

The next day and I said we need to build your own version of tzatziki, but I want it so that the only takes the core information from our site and you like yeah, it can be an automated Martin which has an absolutely not because it doesn't speak in my voice and we need to be very careful and I have one of these rules when we use a tool like that we could have rebranded it and called it.

You know msei my answer was this is chatty BT let people understand Jack Chippy Tea so we'll call it chat GPT and that's what we did but when I opened it up.

It says do not act without checking guide your Direction people elsewhere to the site.

You're saying see it is fun and you say we're just playing we want you to play too but I was also stressed that you said it make up some answers and coming from a company my man.

Who is who are so careful about the precision of your answers and your guidance that was a phrase that jumped out of me.

Well.

That's exactly why I say it so I have a real with my team when we talking about.

Does an issue my answer is just be upfront and transparent about the issue never hi dear.

She could that creates an issue the biggest problem.

We've always had on MoneySavingExpert is the Enormous amount of detailed information.

I've always been a Believer lots of the weather's about short articles, but actually my view as I want to have the full 12000 words we should have had a lot of those words and dropdowns that takes you through absolutely everything you need to know but then when people have specific questions navigating to that is always been what they complained about so what I'm testing with the chat CBT is in my head.

It is a tool that is like a clever person who's got an eidetic memory is read everything on the site is an answering from it and when we built it uses the GPS natural language model but all the answers come from MSC doesn't necessarily understand everything perfectly and because what we do is so important to be with you make a mistake.

It's wrong.

We want people to use as a jumping off point and then once you understand that it takes it.

Why you got the actual written human text the Works that's how you see it, but you can send that some users won't make the distinction between the text that generated through chat gbt on your and the text that sits in your guy know cos I've got a bit of the top that says this make-up be careful and you know you can only do that.

You can only leave that the biggest problem actually had with it.

It was very busy working on this at the moment is what I wanted it to do it then link you to the relevant guide but actually building if it was terrible it kept linking you know you'll be talking about foreign currency and it would like you to ASOS shopping so we actually talk over links out and put a search bar at the bottom with working on improving that people need to understand with this large language model AI isn't perfect yet and when they're doing it on the main one the first will the information is out of date second.

It's not source when you go to the internet.

We all know some place is a more authoritative The Lovers tzatziki.

Is a mishmash of all of them so you should always treat it with a pinch of salt and go to the gym if you check yourself and everything else so there's a pinch of salt added, but nonetheless.

It's there on your app.

Can you imagine a scenario MoneySavingExpert isn't using AI and some form? Would you think you've stepped now into her entirely new media Arena so we're in a discussion about exactly how will use it.

Obviously this is the first step that say that we're working on it.

You know it's you could almost I don't like the Talbot at all because it has all types of consequences when you put things in app store, but it is effectively a beta model.

We're also looking at there's lots of other we can do and use AI in a setting what people are interested in where they're going what parts of articles are reading all of that type of a I am interested in.

I'm just not interested it as a content creator in terms of research and I don't think it's capable, but no I got a i is here.

It is revolutionising certainly the journalistic and media world and you have to get on top of it.

Do you think you can do some of the things that you're describe.

Asking your uses for more data because looking around your site you repeatedly say we're only taking the data.

We need we don't want any more data than that.

Do you think I may encourage you to step into the data collection? I need to be really careful about what I say on that because it's quite important again when the team come and talk to me and they're talking about what we asked.

I always say we should ask everybody absolutely everything we should get every bit of data.

We need to do what we need to do for people so I'm not stingy on what will get but I actually think there is a contract when you run a website when you take people's data if you're giving them a free service and for me we don't mind if we only have a use it for what you know if you're coming on the mortgage till we need to know what type of house should buy we need to we need to know we can't give you the answers to your mortgage question, but that's the only thing I want to know but I'm not scared of asking people the data as long as we need the data and that ties into some of your

Ambitions for artificial intelligence that's very much what's coming for money Saving Expert let's go back a few years and 1997 you study broadcast journalism Cardiff University since then you said everyone else wants war correspondent or going fighting zones.

I talked about doing money on this morning and of course you got on to do that.

I just wonder if you think back to that time what were impressions of how the media was feeling personal finances a subject well.

I think it was handling Personal Finance consumer finance which didn't exist but I think the most interesting story I remember from that was the teacher of art courses name is Bob and this is the postgrad we didn't see very much I try and I look at it back now and it's pretty understandable why he was very much he was an old smoking switching hack and his first thing I want you to go to every pub in this city to go and get your stories and I come from financial PR in the city and for me as I get a story from looking at looking at the

I don't particularly want it was never what I was interested in that type of girl is going to pass on finding stories that way they use social media to do the same thing now for people give me stories all the time and see what's going on and never saw right away that much and I think that's because he was old school journalism.

You know you going to dig out a story you in bed yourself and absolutely are very valid way to do it and I arguably was one of the pioneers of journalism, which is now seen him anymore streams, but that was always interested me.

You know these days when someone is launching a new product that also.

Would you like to talk to the chief example? They go through my team.

They don't talk to me directly and I want to see the product send me the product back.

I got any questions.

I'll ask you I'm not interested in your spin.

I'm interested in analysing your product.

So you asked me what was going on in personal finance said it's a few years later when I really started that heavily so it's 2001/2002 what would happen most newspapers at the time Personal Finance meant investments and protection products and if they were big.

A little bit crazy we might talk about mortgages and most of the stuff with issues based and it was quoting financial advisors or coating firms now.

I when I started because I started on the small telly channel simply money, but no one was watching and that's where I started doing all my stuff and built it a different way.

I always what did the data.

I always did all the numbers myself that was my thinking for me anything that you spend money on which consumer finance if you paid for it.

It was a DVD player it's consumer finance and I remember one key time.

I have got my first call.

It was a Sunday Express I had written an article on the cheapest way to call abroad and what I done if I had a table.

They were what you call overwrite providers where your dad a short 4-digit code beforehand and it's / the cost from £50 minutes to 16 minute and I had a table and it about 15 countries and I think 6 of them with a phone call TeleDiscount at the time.

The headline Money review which is a website for personal finance journalist that person who wrote the review sadho I can tell you did the research for that column.

It was my first goal in the Sunday Express TeleDiscount will be very happy that they got that and by the way the reason TeleDiscount with shopping seven categories is because they were talking seven categories.

I manually compared to countries and I did 50 different providers and and by the way the reason the table wasn't source which is what is noted the table wasn't source is cos this is called journalism.

He apologised to me the next week.

That's my stance do the day to yourself don't rely on everyone else and if you spend money on it.

It's consumer finance but what I'm trying to understand is whether you had taken a passion for the reason the subject and it started to talk and think about to use the word you just used a product were you thinking in those early days in terms of product and medium businesses or you simply take them.

The story in the issues I always wish I was clever enough to have planned what I did rather than have had a little bit of it being organic and a lot of luck which is how I genuinely look at it and I do I think anyone has been successful if they don't acknowledge that there's a good chunk of luck is a liar so I had a lot of luck I setup MoneySavingExpert I come I have the Sunday Express columns.

I was doing something on Channel 5 open house with Gloria Hunniford and the probably the cleverest thing I ever did is when I started writing for the Sunday Express a lot of it was my research been doing over the past couple of years to build the activities and I said to them not one thing because I want to use a content house, where can I retain copyright and I was a Nobody freelance journalist writing this small column and they said yes, so I owned it and then I thought I'll put it on the website and I got a friend to help me with this very small site and the story of the founding of money saving.

And it's success was pretty simple.

I use to when I had something going on that was financial and you could make 50 quid 100 quid and it was a really good deal, but it was short-lived and I wasn't going to be on the telly and I was writing my colon or semi joking note to friends called Martin's money tips and I would like going through this and you can make some 50 quid and then quite soon.

I would go to parties and I'll meet friends of friends and it's I love you money tips and this before we use the term viral and so I got in about it was probably February 2003 or maybe a couple of months earlier.

I said that to all my friends.

Can you forward this to everyone you forward my tips on and asked if I'd like to join my email list and 800 people did which is pretty decent from just as is it before social media before Facebook remember and said that was the first Martin's money tips and I set up the website on the back in a now.

What would have 15 million people join the list and about 9 million get it and it grew very quickly so there was one moment.

Ok, there's something going on here was about it wasn't that commercialised you know about it was actually about promoting my my broadcast journalism career which is what I was focused on but presumably there was a point later down.

The track was ok whether by Design or by accident.

I've created a media business.

That is growing at some pace was there a moment you can remember where you thought I'm so sorry, but I wish I could I could give a better story about my genius but unfortunately what happened is I said at the website at the same time as I started going on this morning and my traffic exploded and I had what I thought was an unlimited server package, but I realised it wasn't an unlimited server package and eyesight was always down so I then on the traffic.

I had I had to set up a different package that was costing me about 2 to £3,000 a month which was not something I could afford out of my freelance journalism income and so I thought I have to find a way to make a little bit of income from this so I brought in a financial director.

Head of links that I put on that paid a little bit and then I thought well, how am I going to get this site to pay without impacting my editorial and it was quite simply MoneySuperMarket which was up and running at the time.

They had links to lots of products so I've go to them and I'd say have you got any of these links and if they had the links I put them at the bottom of the article and say by the way these are paid and here's equivalent unpaid so you can check it to same thing none of this ever changes my editorial and later I put stars on them and put them in the main thing that was just to pay for the servers at first but once the first revenue started to come in and I was like this is paying for more than the service.

I'm going to be able to have staff that was the moment I went this is different.

This is real when it was different and you saw that money coming in and the highest are when you were having to share your idea with with other people.

How did you find that because of course many Media startups either start with one person or very low number of people and if there's successful as you.

Was more people come in and sometimes that can be a moment of attention or a friction so what happened and I don't mean to be Smurfs the personal finance journalist of the time but whenever I try to they didn't get it right.

I'll give you a classic difference is what I tell my team now the young young members of the team and they come in to headline that says I'm from this week 1.1 million people of state pension age are missing out on £3900 missing out on attendance allowance and I I scratch a line through that and I write are you one of the 1.1 million people missing out on £3,900 a month attendance allowance are you I talk to an individual.

I do not talk to I'm not interested in issues when it comes to Personal Finance I one of my lectures to my team is assume their self selfish and not in a bad pejorative way, but the Shoe People only have the time to.

What affects them but not interested in issues and everybody was issues based and they couldn't get so I actually hired had a one person who was on my forum.

I had her to come work.

I used to work with you came in i, t and then my my first main researcher I got from Shepherd's Bush Jobcentre I mean to be very been to Imperial and studied mathematics.

I'm not going to do that much is nobody to require big money so write and he came in and all I had graduates.

I had graduates who used the site and have a passion for the site and I taught them how to do it, so I didn't have that friction in the early days, so your work with lots of younger.

Very talented to myself to be 43032 your new staff.

You are shaping and guiding in your Image but of course every business when it gets to certain scale it just isn't possible for the person who started it to keep an eye on every last decision or every last article there must have been a point.

I don't know when you would have reached it where you had to let go of being over every last piece of cake.

Is there an uncomfortable moment I think my team will still tell you now that I have not got to the point where I'm comfortable.

We doing that genuinely probably until at least 20:10.

I was still on top of me every single article and it would all go through me and it was and it drove them all nuts you know and and as I say that early team in fact almost all the team running very substantial consumer finance by public and we are staying in touch and it's a nice.

It's a nice and I do like the way that worked out but even now now.

I'm chair and as an editor-in-chief and he's he manages the site my role is content what the site says and ethics and I I cannot be on top of the article.

It's too big but what I do is the weekly email which is the centrepiece we do.

I write that some bits.

I buy line which these people hear about if you read the weekly email to see which that big publication that I mean by far the single biggest publication in personal finance by long way.

I get a draught of it on a Friday I redraft bit over the weekend on a Monday I'm normally does one or two pieces that I would have it myself which I buy lined so I my picture goes on and that means the team cannot change a word without running it past me the other bits.

I will rewrite from scratch because I'm absolute perfection is Paddington drive will not nuts and ask hundreds of questions and by doing teach week.

That's however a Euro look at all the content so I can't look at it when it's online, but because of doing almost every subject in a year every time it comes in the email.

That's when I interrogate that's when I drive them all mad.

That's when I put it all still on top of that now.

That's that's on the money Saving Expert that's what I do there might be some people listening thinking that you're ready to achieve Marcus Herbert is having to deal with another editor and chief in the office as well.

What proof is Marcus is more like a chief exact right.

He has got the team do but I have content.

Tidy editorial line is mine, so the editor online is mine.

He's in charge of an easy way to decide it if you see it on the site.

It's me how it gets there everything else under how we operate looking after the staff all of those things all the business side of stuff is not me and Marcus does that bring it to the way I probably a better way to describe Marcus inches in charge of the dating site.

I I look after the email and I lose that to review the site.

So that we have an editorial team of around 40 to 50 split into different specialties and money team as a utility team.

We have a deals team.

We are the features team.

We have a campaigning team who don't work on the site.

Who just do you know our consumer campaign in work very closely with me.

We have the press team.

They have a daily meeting each day, but we tend to run by the email content because the email is I always in the early days.

I used to say when a website where where an email backed up by website and I think we are.

Website these days cos that's got its own standing content for the email absolutely drives the week.

I do my stuff on a Monday the team then go through on a Tuesday and the reason for that is cos my shows on a Tuesday at the moment so I can do both days.

Otherwise it would be Wednesday is meetings all the afternoon when we going to watch out.

We're going to do on Thursday and Friday when you get stuff done and just so I'm clearly you're still essentially using the same business model as the one that you describe the early days in the affiliate links are still quarter how MoneySavingExpert makes money, so when I sold to MoneySuperMarket group 2012 we codified the existing operation system so and we called it an editorial code.

It was by far the biggest.

It's a reason to go see ations took a year and a half because it had to have huge penalties for breach.

We write.

What is best based solely on editorial judgement then if some of those products that the best have a fillet links we put them in but if the

Don't have a fillet links.

We don't put them in and buy affiliate links you mean a link that takes the reader somewhere else.

They may spend money on for example if the best credit card is the card then the link that takes you to Barclaycard is tracked and if you get a product through it then there will be an affiliate payment today if the best product is Barclaycard and it doesn't have a look that pays you still get the link you still go through the same thing the site.

Just want to pay me put a star on them to make sure people understand that we getting paid and then at the bottom we give you an alternative link that doesn't pay in case you wanted to check it out now.

We have a clips and but we put them there.

I'm inside the model with the star many other websites of since copy that now but the editorial code says we must always act in the in the first interest of the consumer ahead of our own.

We must be independent of the group so if we wanted to slate another of the brands in the same group trading PLC with free to do so and there is absolutely nothing that can stop and we won't datamyne that's a simple.

Simplified Bridge there's never been a very interesting these days not long after we first came from a very commercial organisation and he said to me we must be right.

We must be truly must always do what's in a consumer interest because that's why far our biggest brand asset and commercial the fact that people trust as the fact that we do the right thing is the way that the site is able to generate revenue so we must never breach it so you can take if you're you know if your Skepta will you can take the view that says we do all this because that's how the site continues to make money what you can take the move you and why I still do it when I don't need to make money because I believe in it and we must be right and we must be true.

That's what I said it up for it.

That's what my baby was there for and that moment in time to have a huge moment for you and for your for your petrifying for your business, but it was also a moment.

We got you notice.

I never use the word.

So I call it a website whenever you is a business, isn't it? Not to me? It is but not to meet in the same reason.

I never refer to myself as an entrepreneur which many other people do I don't see my business interestingly internally I called when a new chief exec of the group comes and they talk about customers.

I always stop them MSC has users we do not use the word customers cos I do not believe that we have a customer relationship.

We have users and that's what I tell all my team.

We talk about those users not the customers, but whether you were trying to grow a business or simply have an email website supporting it to do use the phrase that you used none the less you had this runaway success in your hands before the sale in 2012 and you talk about it of course with great fluency and confidence but the moments where you thought goodness.

This is just got to bid on me.

I don't know how to handle something is sold.

That's exactly why I sold it was incredibly difficult.

Run money Saving Expert by myself, I'm not a good delegator think I probably given that they already I took it all on myself.

You know we had a huge legal if she's going on because we had such a big forum.

You know what top 10 UK social media site and we would commonly getting legal letters from people in Britain in the forum and dealing with that we dealing with complex issues my television career which is what I always wanted to be was be a broadcast journalist that was taking off and I was being pulled from pillar to post.

I've been very honest.

I don't talk about it in any more than this that I have my dark days mental health wise and the pressure was too much and I absolutely felt I needed someone else to take all the stuff.

They wasn't good at and you know when you when you run an organisation, it's worth and sort of you you when I took that what I do now.

I do all the stuff that if it doesn't sound too hard and really good at and everything that I'm not really.

Another people better, I let them do and one of the things you're obviously very good at is talking about the products and services that may be out there for the uses of your I'm curious to know how much time do you put aside to get across all of this stuff because you have a huge amount of output which covers a huge range of subjects and you go on the radio on a regular on the TV on a regular basis you ride an awful.

Lot as well.

What's that rooted in identity card MoneySavingExpert as a factory and it's a factory that produces brilliant analysis and sent about how to say what about you and it has two products when is Money Saving Expert and one is me and both those products need to be fat now the way I get fed rewrite the email and when I rewrite the email or I start alright by email so often do I brighten scratch or sometimes and rewriting? I throw hundreds of questions at my team.

I don't stand why does this way go and find this out for me.

I do very polite you lots and lots continuous set of numbers of questions out and that's how I feed myself.

I am most myself in a particular subject and writing about I want to understand absolutely every single detail about it that she's in that goes into my head is feeding the the Martin adamant of getting up then and having a set reading pattern or watching or listening and reading analysing right the way I've just like to explain things and how I broadcast up and we've had this chat privately when we talked about.

How do you explain complicated information about my first rule is no Inside Out 2 2 levels and deeper than the amount you're going to explain because then I like to have a model in my head of how things work.

I will talk about this is student finance I have a model in my head of student finance of how it operates of what the different bits are so if you change one thing.

See how it will affect something else so dropping tuition fees only helps the highest earning graduates for example counter logical, but once you understand the model it makes sense and so how do I know all this because I do the analysis and I get asked the questions to do it reading would never get me then let's get further into this because you're one of the best-known and most effective Media communicators if you learn by analysing by questions in the direction of your colleagues and deep going deeper and deeper into the subject once you've reached that point.

How do you then translate it into what you're going to say on a podcast or on the TV does it just come you think ok? I've now got this level of knowledge now.

I'm going to do this.

Well.

I will have generally written it first the money Saving Expert so that will be the first way.

I'm at the team when I do again my name is when I do my new new members of the team talk and one of the things that everyone's and bad nice item no one has ever sent me anything that I haven't.

It is it is never happen now that includes me so when I say something comes from me and sometimes it seems that hold On We're basis and what you wrote two years ago, and it's still not good enough we can do better improve it a pain in the bum and so I can't I will rewrite something in the email that I'm writing with my by line on.

I'll probably right it 10 to 15 times so I can and each time.

I'm home in it and then it's going into my head and then for my TV show I will be doing graphics and I write my graphics which is Ben diluting it out of pros and into bullets of exactly constructed and finessing it down and by the time.

I've done those two processes.

I can possible in the shower and get it to turn out anyway.

I particularly want to because I know it's so well and I've got the stuff called Lexicon of how to phrase it going to broadcast the work that you're describing there is and I've heard you talk about this before it's a mix of straight journalism, but sometimes your campaigning as well.

Just as your website provide straight journalism, but also campaign.

Team who who deal with that? I just want to talk a little bit about what that says about how you view journalism.

This is a Blog that you wrote on money saving expert in 2017 you say I'm proud to be a biased there.

I said it.

I don't for balance.

I'm on a shame that Lee pro consumer.

I don't put the other side my aim is to show people how to cut their bills and fight financial injustice if the TV lawyers do mine the firms giving a right of my show fair enough, but I never voice it myself.

Isn't that in some ways missing out on an important perspective in our understanding of financial products if we don't see the perspective of the people who are providing the money Saving Expert does what it says on the tin consumer finance I am not here to represent business.

I have no no auntie business agenda, but quite simply my focus is on.

What can help the consumer and I actually you know you will have this discussion many times on the show journalism.

It is impossible to get rid of your own biases and so it is far better to have a declared bias.

Which is in my case.

I'm coming from one perspective of the way I operate and I will take it even further and I said though if I'm really honest with you.

I call myself a campaigning consumer finance journalist and the number one remit for me is outcome is more important than the story so that have been times where the I have had stories the other German this would have splashed on but I have.

Not gone because they're not doing it.

I can get a better outcome for consumers and I've made those make those decisions.

I went to give us an example if I gave it you would have just selfie what I did.

I was in a meeting with Ofcom yesterday to talk about scams and one of the first things they said I was there with my head of campaigns, so I said I need you to understand.

I'm here as a campaigner today.

Not a journalist private meeting so we can speak freely write sometimes and I have to understand that I'm always make sure people know which had that the the example I was talking about before I'm trying to see if I can something happened in the stomach that somebody told me was effectively going to me a really big problem for about 2 million people.

And it was it was a very small technical issue of drafting and I went to the government and I said look you need to fix this and if you fix.

This is not a story because there's nothing broken and I'm not out.

It's a technical drafting if you are not going to go out to say anything as there's no story and it was fixed and those many people were in the best position and I didn't do the story now some journalist would say they got involved in the store in that and I was given the story and I should have just done the story on let it be in the pub it to me but I knew pretty well if I did that then the problem would not be fixed because governments tend to not like you two, can I have the back against the wolf is at campaigning but if your priority is informing and helping my priority is the outcome that's what I said my priorities outcome and approach to working for an awful.

Lot of people because while research showing levels of trust in journalism shows falling trust as I'm sure you're aware your trust ratings are high very high.

Why do you

The you're there and journalism as a whole is not a look for me that one of the biggest problems.

We have in our journalistic trade at the moment is clickbait content farms everytime I go on television 20 of stories written about me not by doing this but by SEO optimizer often what they write is inaccurate incorrect misleading and occasionally dangerous and many newspapers have both their proper print-based journalist and then they have their online organisations where the content control is absolutely poor they getting rid of staff.

They are operating with any I or very low and untrained non journalistic writers and of course when you diminish the quality of your content when you diminish or output people are going to lack Trust now to add that to the top of phone hacking.

You know the people that many people who voted his typos are very anti the way that tabloid journalism and sort of celebrity based tabloid journalism works and

Highly reputable, where is I am incredibly proud when people offers on your financial advisor? I'm not a financial advisor.

I'm incredibly proud to be a journalist journalism is a very powerful honourable trade where you can expose injustice you can educate people how to be better in their lives make Better Decisions informed about what's going on in society the it's such a Broadfield that when you have certain ends of it that are letting down the other everyone's reputation is brought down and hear your concerns about one end of the field, but if we go to the well-funded well resourced the feel well.

Not well funded morrells absolutely through the floor is it one of the big newspapers all the team many of them are struggling to make it if I really go to it doesn't there's a big problem in Germany in the hole and I've had this discussion with some great political journalist if I take the pandemic as an example in the pan.

I did not go to one of the press conferences even though finance and consumer finance would take all of everything that was going on in the pandemic.

It was medical and it was consumer finance they were the two big issues that going on out that and you know I was deeply involved in trying to explain to people have government financial support schemes work and feeding back to the government on what was wrong with their screens going into M I was not I never went to the press conferences and most people with political journalist trying to get political hits and you haven't you could have got the press, but I could not I asked I asked time and time again.

I was not asked not given to go.

I was told I could not go I think they have Robbie Savage that to ask a question about football.

I think it was Robbie Savage at one time.

I wrote and Robbie savages, can I come to the press conference we have some important questions to ask no so I was not allowed to go to the press conferences.

I couldn't go did not have an invite who who would decide that the number telecoms team you when we got in touch with.

Ask you coming out to put out on social media at the time and even the social media request saying if you support this retweet it and I didn't go to the Conscious but my point being an easy example.

It's always a political story and what we don't have is the underlying instant assessment coming from what does it mean for you always miss the prime minister.

Are you going to be in a vote of confidence vote of confidence? We always journalism tends to focus on almost the political tittle-tattle angle and the Westminster angle than rather than more prosaic the cost of living crisis was an exception to that in that such was the urgency of the experience of millions of people that actually news-journal did turn to the areas are saying all the priority news and political journalist.

They talked about the cost of living crisis as a political issue.

When they go into people's homes and they get someone say how terrible it is and what's going on never wants to hear that.

Solutions really do I have an asking practical professional is would I do? They don't need to provide Solutions that is not part of the problem.

We will have to look after her eye viewers does on our readers and I think sometimes we should actually think what can we do in these questions you don't think the journalism in some cases can be about providing information about informing people about our world and people control whatever conclusions.

They want to or come up with whatever matchbox.

They want I think that's one angle of journalism.

I think it's a valid worthwhile angle of journalism.

Isn't the totality of journalism campaigning journalism has a proud history response to the needs of its viewers and listeners has a proud history my issue was the dominance of political questioning I'm questioning about what are the government going to do about the cost of living rather than actually focusing more on just as much.

How do you get through the cost of living? What is a

How does this work? I mean it was determined that when the energy price cap was launched at the BBC and the prime minister and others kept quoting this the price cap as if there were a total of a couple but you could pay which was fundamentally wrong because we have people looking at the issue.

It will focus on the politics and not the present.

I can't speak the others by remembering our news from there being candid discussion about it not bad after it's already being broadcasted all the bulletins.

I remember my Radio 5 Live showing the bulletin before I was on me and correcting the News Bulletin so they will we all make mistakes that was one that was size me but I just give you an example of where the focus is for the last 6 or 7 years social media has been swarming with scam ads and I'm one of the main face close to the public nuts but for the first 3 years of trying to get something done all Westminster was concerned about and a lot of political journalist concerned about by the way there are many Great Britain

Dominating the way that they do all forms of but what they were concerned about is the damage to democracy about you know the impact of Cambridge analytica and you're sitting there going your people losing real amounts of money destroying life destroying mental health and none of the Westminster model including the media and including the politicians would give a Jot about it and you couldn't get them to that's my frustration.

I can hear your frustration.

I guess some people listening might be think we need to choose between these two things you can have when you have all the journalist to go to the big press conferences during the political journalist.

They're all Focus one way that was my issue.

It wasn't they shouldn't be doing it.

It's that we should have had both let me ask you about a couple of issues that you've raise that start with the scammers you have new legislation and it that's coming off G is going to be regulating it.

I've been reading it introducing the legislation in three phases phase 3 concerns the scammers.

What's your particularly concerned with do you have faith the office?

Regulator of sufficient strength to enforce the demands that is new law has of the Tech platforms to get rid of these ads I had a very good private meeting with Ofcom yes, I think there is a real passion there to make things better on this front my frustration is the timetable which to be fair is nothing to do with Ofcom I mean this legislation.

We should have had I first read Facebook I think it was 4 years ago now and you know that settle for a 3 million to charity and reporting button, but I did that because I met a very senior member of the cabin about this issue and was told all it's far better for you to do this and for us to legislate which I think was absolutely outrageous.

How long it took we should have had bespoke scammers regulation and legislation 5-6 years ago.

It's finally coming but first of them has to focus on it illegal harms which does include some deepfake stuff, which I get the Fate so that's that's going to take probably 18 months and then they will look at scammers which is.

Set the light to be talking 2025 to 2026 before there's any enforcement power in place and that is Frankie being another failure of our political system, please come out of being destroying for years and it's going to take till 20:25 before we can actually do anything in the government to do more about it, but what about the platform so here's a Tweet from you from just a few days ago saying and you retweeted a scam and Elon Musk this was on XO Twitter is it was cold not sure you're aware that readers notes being put on scams.

I know you're using scam as just like me.

Can I ask you a proof of this method of policing? I just wondered if you heard back.

I didn't hear back from him, and I was being very polite but clearly it's purple bullets if you forget the language but when you have a scam that is Miss using someone's image and trying to get people to a fake cryptocurrency site which is literally just criminal stealing money that when you report it to a platform that platform then put some notes underneath it saying read.

This is a scam just taking the bloody thing down.

I mean how ridiculous is that are you able to communicate with x sometimes get through to all of these big sites what we have to understand.

They call themselves platforms and is a legitimate argument that they are platforms when it comes to publishing social media content but when they are paid paid giving money.

They are publishers when they are paid to advertise and the way they deliberately obviously take time smile you saying he has very difficult to do 10 player on making billions of pounds not expect the other ones billions of pounds and the truth is they will know the heads and smiled about the Ofcom regulation but most of them will not do anything until the day before of comedy you know on the scale for example on the forum that you host it is difficult to stay across every last piece of content that's being published onto a platform whether it's your forum or the giant platforms like Facebook

Or others, it's difficult isn't it? We do not take paid advertising on our forum.

We do not be paid to promote post the real difference to understand if you publish a post on the social media site and it is the people who have asked to see that post to view it generally in the weight operates, but if you pay then you are using your platform to promulgate a paid idea to a whole range of people which is publishing yes, it's difficult but I'll forum is a cost to us.

It doesn't make any money right.

It is a net loss.

It's about thing to do.

I don't mind doing so please play me meta make billions of pounds a year from its advertising and instead of having proper procedures put in place to vet who is allowed to advertise the block people who stand in the pass.

I mean they admitted thousands of scammers with my face on that platform and they are still published today.

They're not doing well enough now has come through in and number of dimensions of this discussion and you have found yourself.

Is years on from when you created MoneySavingExpert as one of the most trusted voices in the country certainly on the issue of the financial products that millions of people use how is the experience of being in the trusted position within the media beam? It's horrendous is it is awful incredible compliment but I find it very difficult you know we're sitting here.

We've been doing this interview.

I am already self-editing didn't actually say that did I mean it to be that way have I said it going to people take it out of context think that's going through my head.

I might be surprised by that speak with such fluency and confidence unless in there and the robust debate is good, but sometime all of that full of self-doubt and one of the greatest difficulties means that you think have I got it right have I got it right have I got it right? I am professionally paranoid.

The greatest strengths, I probably had over the last 20 years as a professional paranoia that way on you every time you offer a piece of advice on the website or in the email every time I do everything you know we wrote this piece.

We talking to before I was like I want to check my benefits advisors to go with has to be writing people's lives week if somebody apply for this and it stops another benefit.

I wouldn't sleep at night and most the time you'll be worrying and I'm sure your legs and your users would say about nothing because you're almost always getting it right, but have there been times when mistakes have been made where your fears have become real that have been x mistakes have been made.

I have never been x my phone as I become real because if I had fears about them, I won't have made a mistake.

So the moments where you could have been more culturally companies going bust and that week because we don't that's not something that we can check in you advise a product and then they come and open the big hits right now.

I can think of a couple of examples over the past 20 years there was the famous when the Icelandic banks went bust what my greatest frustration with that.

I don't ever said this before I specifically asked when I was presented the Tonight program for my TV 6 months beforehand.

What about the Icelandic banks there on the passport system, so if they were to go bus with them out and I got an answer that said something like yes, we would make sure people with fine and that gave me I sort of had this not from the government that things would be fine that was out of the program for Time by The Producers understand though, if you're feeling this pressure constantly is a very high profile Media figure, but not just any Media figure someone who.

Weather professional role, that is connected to trust and responsibility in advice.

Do you have strategies to make that pressure feel manageable no, no strategies are not particularly effective.

What do you try to turn off the comment? You know this is something social media the whole joy and the strength of social media is the when I write on my social media platforms.

It is me.

I can only reply to about 1% because I get too many responses, so no I can't turn it off.

I need to stop looking at it later on in the evening.

Cos it will write something horrible and it sends a job through me because I have a very thin skin.

So I try I have all the natural human strategies.

I try to take breaks.

I do some breathing you know I thought of walking lots and lots of walking I do huge amounts of exercise, but I do find the stress very difficult to manage and I would not set myself up as an example of.

Manage and cope with huge levels of stress when it's going through because I'm really ported and I tend to find most of the time I can deal with it and then I have period where I find it very very difficult to deal with and I struggle with some fun to be able to do it and people think I'm incredibly robust because of the way I talk and I come across actually I'm quite a brittle person and I find it very difficult you know to the old on the newspaper article online never good idea for me.

Do you ever seek advice from others in high-profile positions in the media? Who might be exposed to same the same with a few I think I'm not quite sure I find anyone who is particularly analysis.

I think lots of people do with pressure for lots of different reasons.

You know I have the classic my show my telly, show is I don't can't think of another on the TV where if the main presenter isn't there it's just is cancelled right most of the other big live shows that somebody comes and standing there is if I will there's only one.

Well, there isn't anyone who's coming in to do it and that pressure but also because of the sort of small.pea Quasi political role that I have I mean I often think when is it time to stop cos I'm tired and you don't then the pandemic came and I thought maybe after the pandemic.

I take my foot off the gas and then the cost of living crisis has come and I would like that moment be round the corner.

Well.

I'm very driven.

I'd like I don't want to stop but I'd like to take my foot off the gas.

I'm not sure I'm capable of doing so but I do and I hope this doesn't sound particularly arrogant.

I have found myself in a position where on my subject area if I raise an issue that needs to be raised it gets attention in the way nobody else can and I don't think that's how I mean.

It's true right and therefore I very much feel that burden of responsibility.

I'm very much filled up and I feel better I have an obligation because it has given me a

It's giving me incredible success in a wonderful life and financial security for myself and for my family and therefore I feel obligated to continue with that responsibility because if I go it won't be there and I that's something I wrestle with because I'm quite tired and the passion with which you're talking about this in the emotion is matched to some degree by the passion when you were describing that story that you wanted to get right back in 2003.

It almost feels like the passion and commitment you have to this causes constant is not something you can turn off the difference between an energised young 30-year old man who is driven and ambitious and had a huge amount to achieve and the 51 year old man who sitting here who in and have nothing to take off on my list.

I've done absolutely everything x 100 that I have a set out to do.

I find it ridiculous when I look at where I am it.

I never planned to be in this position.

I never thought that you know I'm a boy.

I grew up in a forest in the middle of Cheshire I did not.

In this position, I'm incredibly privileged to be in this position, but there is a burden to and you know people will go up that much money, but it's not about that.

There is a burden that goes with which I'm proud to have but it's hard does that include a pressure to comment because a lot of people will have seen the tweet that you posted after the October 7th attack in Israel and you clearly a great deal of time thinking about whether to say something or not of you.

You chose to is there a pressure every time something happens that may connect you in some way that you talk about it.

If I say no because I simply got to spend my whole time doing interviews I could do it 7-days a week constantly and I have a very big minstrel that if it's not within my expertise and not with him.

I will.

I'm not going to try and start the comments you know so I say no to many things but obviously it was incredibly difficult time for many Jewish people and many Muslim people and what's going on in his tragic.

I did feel some of the calls for me to speak with bordering anti-semitic.

I think the fact that I have never been asked about political situation in China or Saudi Arabia or South America I'm British and a British due my parents were born in Britain or my grandparents were born in Britain or my great grandparents were born in Britain and yet people somehow felt they could demand that has a British due.

I should be talking on a conflict in the Middle East when I never talk about International Affairs in what's going on in social media and it's not something that I comment on and I found it because I as I wrote in that post.

I often talk with an expertise on my subject.

I am not an expert.

What is going on in Israel and Palestine I have no expertise on it, so I did not want to comment so people could not assume and expertise where it did not belong and yes, I felt obligated to put something.

I literally to stop people asking me that so I put a comment out I mean about the tragedy and it's a tragedy for all sides.

It is absolutely desperate for the kids things and the terrible events that went on October 7th and also huge sympathy for what's going on at the people who live in Gaza of course.

I do and then I kept my mouth shut until this point and you don't think anything you now because I'm allowed to have your notice when you do.

This is your dreadlocks everything.

I always talk in my job role.

I try not to talk but as a private man in a family man.

There's no pictures of my daughter anywhere on the internet.

We never take her to events.

My wife was using the media to and has a profile to we tend not to do things together with one exception of during the pan.

When she had to flow manage myself because no one else is allowed in the house to do it and we work with robotic cameras for my TV but with one exception.

We don't because I'd like to keep my private affairs private and I think that my faith what's going on over the tragic events in the Middle East was my business, but I felt I said something I've said it once they won't say it all the time and you've given us a lot on the media.

Show me you've also been very modest about how much of the success of money Saving Expert was planned particularly well, maybe both and but nonetheless you have clearly been a very astute reader of the direction the media is going in and have been for a number of years.

You couldn't have seen the success that you've seen with MoneySavingExpert without it now as you look at the media landscape.

Where do you see the priorities? What are the media priorities for you and MoneySavingExpert I mean? I think a lot of it where in a reaction rather than proactive time at the moment.

It's very difficult to judge house.

If I look at my television show it's now 11 years since we started I'm doing this from memory so be slightly wrong, but the scale of magnitudes are right.

I think in the first series we were averaging around 3.8 3.9 million viewers, which was roughly and 11 or 12% share of available audience last Tuesday we got 2.7 million viewers a 22% share of available audience so I think the people are looking at the dominance of what used to be called terrestrial television that's the best example.

You can get with a little over half, what it used to be but the share is nearly double.

We are we won the slot with the most watched thing with the most watched tv.

Show on British television very very long way, we're a very huge success, but we're getting 2.7 million which when I first started would have not looked like a good audience now.

It's a huge audience for the type of show that we have so that the real question for the media is we used to have.

Hegemony where you could have big events where what was written in a newspaper.

What was on the television would be leaving the national discourse now.

That's a very diffuse.

Lot of people get their sources from social media which is it by definition is a diffuse source in its own right far fewer people watch terrestrial television the BBC dominance has disappeared national newspaper dominance has disappeared and there are two different voices out there now.

I think the media is going to struggle to find its path and funding long-form detailed investigative journalism.

I remember my first PPI I had two members of my team that I worked with and to get it right.

We spent over 6 months before we published working on getting it right.

How many Media outlets order now who could resource 6-months someone's story for an article? I mean we don't do it to the extent anymore, but we're still resourcing serious amount of time for a detailed journalism and take.

Some weeks to go through something at it right and I think the media doesn't have the newspapers on doing that to the same except one or two headline investigations Newsnight doesn't do investigations anymore.

That's just been taken the danger of a diffuse Media where you have a lot of small players is actually it becomes much more difficult especially when we have a word with big pockets for suing it's gonna be more difficult to get the big stories out there when it takes investigation and when they're being contentious and that's my worry for journalism braidfauld time for us.

We appreciate it.