Read this: Investigating Lockerbie, 35 Years On

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 Media strategy as he gives evidence to the covid enquiry will also talking about a new documentary on the Lockerbie bombing and asking how coverage of major tragedies has changed in the 35 years since download the name of the person the government wants to be the new BBC chair that emerged first in a scoop this morning for the Financial Times has Daniel Thomas and he's here Dan give us a name and a little bit about him.

Well lucky man Samir Shah who was the former non-executive director of the BBC as well as an executive he served as the head of current affairs were BBC back in the 90s and has had a 40-year career and very safe pair of hands and I think you would be a really good at good candidate for this role has been confirmed yet.

Minister.

Still have to do that but the same time you know it's a tough job and

Long way to go is a human dartboard of an axe you know he's got government ministers going for him.

You're the audiences of the BBC complaining is a human sponge for those complaints so be really interesting to see how it helps bit more about that human dartboard later, but we're going to start with something.

I should warn.

You is upsetting and graphic this weekend Christina lamb the two foreign correspondent for the Sunday Times had an exclusive a story revealing reports of horrific sexual violence carried out by Hamas during its 7th of October attacks in Israel Christina you're here to talk with us about it now.

Thank you very much for coming on the media.

Show can you remind our listeners what your story revealed? Yeah, just basically I spoke to you about what happened on October 7th in terms of sexual so I spoke to people.

Who were at the music festival this you been over festival and told me that they witnessed.

I also spoke to people who were the first responders that day and where are collecting the victims that they found young women jeans with a bloody they said you know who gets shot in the head at all.

So people that were in a wall and how many of them.

In sexual, ok, I mean it's important story the BBC investigation of day or two after you would like to get a sense of how you got to it first and also in a why it's taken 2 months for this really to emerge the weight has a what was the journalistic process that you went through to get that story over the line so unfortunately because I have been a long time because of what happened to women and in so many places and it seems to me there isn't this going on because it's happening.

I have no idea.

And also Israel so because I'm right about it a lot about trying to bring justice for what's happening.

I'm off to buy women's organisations when things happen or is it in Ukraine and I was again and I must say I think in the case of this.

This is this part of so I went there.

I didn't go right.

Investigate and start talking to people what happened to them I did point out that they've done something wrong and I just did you need the cooperation of the Israeli authorities to report it basically I started talking to save this video.

Another like that I did speak to you.

It's not government organising country.

It's a local community and that was talking to Young

And you mention that you've reported on this around the world and that you've written a book on it this particular wall is so polarising has the reaction been different to this report had with gender-based Violence reports that you've done another complex absolutely I could be verified by what's happening to women and children that doesn't stop me also been horrified by what happens if you think that incompatible right anywhere but if you think about it.

We took the story isn't this conflict is just so more polarised than anything else people really seem to feel that you have to take one side or the other and Israel is absolutely not the case.

I think it's as I said what is happening, but I also against women too often and I should point out that in the week, but they that was the temporary release from there.

When are released and it will not release festival absolutely what's happening to them because they have things to say because all the impact of course and if we talk more widely covering this wall.

I mean how conscious are you as I'm correspondent by not being able to get access to God so you're not actually able to report on the situation today as you might another conflict Ukraine and Russia right now because we don't have access to the Russian side.

You want to be able to cover things from both sides which is and Daniel Thomas from the Financial Times is still here.

I was with you from your perspective of global media and that's how I just wanted to ask you if you think this conflict is testing journalism like never before absolutely I think the combination of the complicated Politics of the region can buy with the the realities of reporting from the ground the need for real-time decision-making and incredible bravery people but don't make any decisions and doing the reporting you know makes it really difficult difficult reporting situation.

I think Kristina meticulous.

Detailed and power for reporting shows how to do it really have to be on the ground you have to talk to people you have to get evidence and you have to report as best you can the truth of the matter is the last word mean.

It is incredibly complicated.

It's not as I said, I think the importance of being on the ground.

It's not just talking to Christina lamb chief correspondent for the Sunday Times thank you so much a very different kind of journalism.

Also caught my eye this week Christina managed to persuade people to talk about traumatic events.

Play recent that I want to bring in John Doe he's a writer and director of a new documentary about the Lockerbie bombing that was in 1988 270 people were killed when a bomb exploded on Pan Am flight 103 John has Revisited events for a series on Sky documentaries here's the trailer lost.

It was a terrorist attack people in the morning for that flight call Dad about it.

I've done nothing is what it seems in the story with the director of that documentary John is here also with us is journalist Frank O'Donnell

Is the former editor of The Scotsman because I want to look at how reporting of a tragedy like Lockerbie might be very different today and how that would have altered our perception of it John thanks for coming on the media show before you go to work on this series you actually spoke I think to the local newspaper to reassure residents and you said it's not an investigative peas with setting out to tell a very large story explain why you felt to do that with the Genesis of this series was actually my executive producer Nancy strang who has family in the area still in fact the first time I went to Lockerbie and we went to Lockerbie ice rink which became an overflow more during the disaster.

You know her family still had you know they were still members of the family won the curling honours board in the ice rink so we were very conscious that we you know when the event happened some of our Media some of our press didn't behave particularly well.

You know there was a lot of Dorset

Climbing over fences there was a relentless pursuit of relatives of the victims on the ground and so the first thing you wanted to do was reassure the people of the people in Lockerbie and you know I'm sure a lot of them will roll their eyes and thought not again.

We felt this was the time to tell the story in depth.

It's an important story, but yeah the key thing for me was to speak to the local paper and say if you see us on the streets are very small town Lockerbie if you see us on treat new series with cameras then come and say hello, we're not going to doorstep anyone.

We are only going to speak to people willing to speak to us and we want we want to respect the story because I know that but certainly hasn't happened in the past.

I was going to ask did you go about approaching sorted but you didn't approach him you waiting for them to approach you but how did you prepare for people to go in front of the camera? I mean you know this.

Obviously has been around for 35 years although a game what struck me making it.

I mean I was I was sitting my A-Level mocks at the time rather disastrously but struck.by lot of people don't know the story and and and if they do know it.

There's a lot of detail they don't know so some people like me have spoken out before we start with a young.

He was a young policeman time call Colin Lawrence and he then introduced us to other people in Lockerbie introduced us to the episode 1 Dave Stewart who's a farmer who tells a heartbreaking story of him and his father finding a toddler in their field and a perfectly preserved toddler sitting in their field, but but dead so he introduces to Dave and you know we went round there we sat.

Timetable we spoke about rugby.

He obviously you know Jimmy relentlessly for being English well, I did point out the both my parents are Scottish so I'm not quite as bad but you just we should have just built relationships with people in the community Sam said they some were going to talk and then decided it was just still to traumatic which obviously respected and people who feature Laden episode 1 we sat down with them and relationships with them and Gain their trust and I'd like to bring you in here on it there the media didn't behave well that is that is there a suspicion towards the media and Lockerbie still is that where it came from there is a suspicion in some quarters, but there's also the word to join us.

There was fatigue.

There is a fatigue about the story because it's been told a lot and so many ways it's been told by local Media national Media internationally.

And your for a lot of people insure telling that story in the initial stages would have been cathartic but actually retelling it maybe for the 10th 15th.

I'm in different ways baby that starts to lose appeal and people just want to get on with their lives and I think it's a complex story as well, because there isn't a resolution to your there are still so many people who think the trial wasn't correct or have alternative theories and soda for that hasn't really been a closure for the community.

I think of the TV news footage of wreckage today to be blunt with most likely be overwhelmed immediately with footage filmed by bystanders as an adder.

How does that alter how you report it and how does it all to our perception of a story yeah, and I was but it happened.

I just actually turned 18 and I was on I was on a night out with friends and I didn't find out about Lockerbie until the following morning.

Like many people are fired at the radio on or the 10:00 news.

There is no smartphones and push notifications which would have happened these days everyone in a pub with immediately being aware of what was going on and so it was very much afterwards that came to light your eyes.

You see who would be an immediate with phones taking video taking photographs etc.

Which would have changed it immediately the desire for live blogs 24-hour news etc and in that space.

Obviously is the fear is that you get conspiracy theories you getting this information and of course Lockerbie has been a story that has been replaced with conspiracy theories over the years but those I think we be filled much more quickly through social media these days and with bad actors who wants to point the finger who who want to look politically either study.

We develop you can imagine that a story like Lockerbie could be you.

The wrong purposes and John dower are the alternative theories something you exploring your documentary on how do you balance this is of alternative theories if you're able conspiracy theories on my inner.

Just some of them are want with the human stories that I can give you it to this when I was approached by Nancy subject.

I my mother actually had a work colleague on the flight and I grew up in a Scottish household.

My mum is from Glasgow my tablet from Aberdeen to Glasgow University so I fell I knew this story but actually when I saw them looking at it.

I would drop the how little I knew about it and how overwhelmingly complex it was and I think that was the would be very easy to make one of those sort of twisty Turny political thrillers.

I'm in a lot of documentaries that shaped like that, but we found that we had to try and place.

What struck me most maybe I should have been surprised you know especially when Christina was staying at the top of the program, but I was still struck by the level of ongoing trauma and grief anger and and that people you didn't speak to you as a result we chose not to speak to know I think I think it's just shows to to place the human Element those stories of anger and trauma probably above some of the complexity of the story would be very easy to done a whole episode on the conspiracy theory on at one point.

We had a whole sequence about they were for CIA agents on netfly and my god the number of theories around just that very event couldn't you could have done a whole hour on but we chose we chose not to we chose to ground the story of you know David David what he found in his field.

Is it in the changing relationship between leaders and Janice in that time you know we touch them this but when a big news events take place now immediately as you say alternative theories and merge off and not supported by facts another counter-narrative.

So what mainstream journalists are reporting.

Yeah, and it's incredibly important.

I think back then finding out those are new lines would have been the thing that competition would have been fierce but I think these days.

It's inevitable such a study would be broken on social media and the most important thing.

I think for me details to verify and to make sure that what people are reading is correct because trust is the most foreign currency that we have in the current in the current environment everybody wants to watch Lockerbie all episodes are available on sky documentaries and NOW TV but thank you.

You're listening to the media show on BBC Radio 4 and as we come to the end of the program.

I want to talk about some other stories in the news that have been happening today with the Financial Times has Daniel Thomas you still here and Eleni deputy editor of politico, London PlayBook hello hello Daniel festival Dan and you were telling her earlier about Dr Samir Shah being the government's preferred.

By the BBC chair, what is in a look like it's very generously being highlighting some of the great journey from sources around around the country together BBC fantastic output in news and current affairs and programming all the rest of it, so that is what he has to safeguard.

He's coming to this role knowing that the BBC will be facing a squeeze on its finances and the next few years the government tomorrow.

We'll probably announce a further squeeze on on sir finances not be happy the licence will be a decision on next year's licence for it will go up and inflation, but they will find a way to make it the lowest possible measure information that we believe at least that's why I hope you understand so again that tens of millions of pounds cut of the BBC next year alone and then we don't know what happens after that but more importantly as a long-term funding strategy which he will have to grapple with the same time as

The government also to talk about different funding models, so not just a licence for things like advertising subscription a fundamental changes to how the BBC is is is founded and I'm and he will have to head up as negotiations of the government and whatever extent he can do safeguarding BBC future as a unit as a independent and Powerful voice search for news and current affairs the resign to make sure I was going to have to make sure he's clear of the conflict of interest rules but joking aside has the government sought a less politicise appointment this time.

Yes, I think the concern what happened last time exactly I had to resign he was seen as two coats of Wisconsin close enough that he tried to help arrange a loan for him and that every man that he had to leave.

The government December of deathly want to less political does controversial choice and in terms of the BBC more broadly, I think we have to consider as well that this will have to be so you can continue in that role if Labour win the next election expenses sometime next year so you know if there's anything wrong with time.

They will have had that to some degree in mind as well as not want another ok.

I'm before the program ends.

Let's turn to the covid enquiry for is Johnson's been giving evidence today.

He's apologised one point here is that the government did it level best all their mistakes were made a lady the judge open today by expressing her concern about some of the contents of Mr Johnson's witness statement being linked to the papers.

He did absolutely so we we've seen in recent days a string of stories of leading up to Boris Johnson's appearance of the enquiry it giving information about the

Make an including some direct quotes from his witness statement and his team has been blamed for leaking that for the nutrition advanced to the narrative.

What is case at before he actually appears that the enquiry we got quite used to drink over the lockdown has already there.

I suppose I think it's a really interesting example because it does show something about the problem of political journalism and other forms of journalism as well jealous place exclusive stories you can take various forms and is often just getting some information about something it's going to happen.

It is a bit later down the line and be the first to publish it so any journalist who was offered information about buses witness statement or his argument in advance will have wanted to publish that because you know they would be destroyed but yeah.

That can be used by you know his team or the government does a celebrity does this to try and show the narrative in their favour by getting given what information do want to give getting that right up again.

We have my hancocks WhatsApp ending up in public after his disagreement with the writer Isabel oakeshott WhatsApp so clearly been a feature of this enquiry.

So far has this changed the culture in imagine? There's another journalist a lot of your business is done by messaging apps are your sources and government now for more hesitant about putting interesting quotes in a message.

I wouldn't say that.

I think is continuing to be WhatsApp is the absolute primary mode of communication and Westminster I speak to a advise as all the time on Whatsapp what has changed is that people in government or increase using the disappearing messages feature which means that WhatsApp delete your exchanges after you anything in between 1-day to 7 Days To longer and that means that.

Nation can't later on be retrieved.

If you know if we have another enquiry into whatever in the future, so I think this is probably the last time we have such a Trove of information on WhatsApp message Dan Thomas briefly for the Financial Times did your scoop about Samir Sharma BBC chair come on WhatsApp actually most of it the old-fashioned method of the telephone very much for Life 10K great to know that the old-fashioned elements of journalism are still alive and well.

Thank you all so much for coming on the media show I'm afraid we are running out of time at thank you to Chris lamb from the Sunday Times John dower who's documentary on Lockerbie is on sky documentaries on Now TV Frank O'Donnell Daniel Thomas and Eleni career and of course.

Thank you all so much for listening to the show will be back next week.

Thank you goodbye.

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