Read this: Regenerating the Doctor

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 at the latest the sale of the Telegraph and The Spectator we've also been speaking to the chair of Ofcom Lord grade, and we're going to talk about Doctor Who because in the Studio with me now is Jane tranter, who is the team to promote behind the new series she is the co-founder of the production company bad wolf in a previous life as a BBC executive she brought Doctor Who back in 2005 Jane hello.

Is it going on Saturday night the ratings are in the ratings were amazing but I think the really exciting thing is that the ratings have just increased day by day by day.

So what started on Saturday night is just getting bigger and bigger as more more people go to watch it.

So that's how many people have told you have enough people on iPlayer watching.

Yes, so we know the over 5.

On Saturday night, which is very good for a raw overnight and by Sunday night another nearly 2 million extra people have watched it and apparently.

It's like another million another million people are people are going to on the iPlayer day by day always need David Tennant has a problem that much more later, but also on the show are the Jonas Jane martinson, who was the media editor at the Guardian and Oliver Shah who's associate editor and leader writer at the Sunday Times and before we talk about the Telegraph BBC News announced more cost-savings this afternoon those include extending and 1:00 news and bring it to Salford investing more resources into digital journalism and huge cuts 2 Newsnight which will be shorter won't make investigative films and will become an interview Debate and discussion show me Martins and first.

What's your reaction? I thinking of increasing this information.

We need the so much fast-paced digital news.

We need invest.

Public service journalism or whenever you like should be given the mandate to do more of that by the BBC now not be subject to such stringent and the National Union of journalists called the Newsnight cats and major blow to investigative news for the BBC says, it's actually investing more in investigations elsewhere numbers and where they've gone from over after the interviews go down to about 300000 now.

I think you can make the argument that you could redeploy those resources Elsewhere and get a bigger impact.

Let's look at the side of the Telegraph and The Spectator because they have been some developments this afternoon, which will come back to you, but just a reminder of the story the former owners of the Telegraph the Barclay family only around 1.2 billion lb in a summer Lloyds took over the titles to try and recoup that dead and auction process is underway or was and it was paused because of a beard from an

Find working with the Barclay family, Aldershot just tell us more who is the fun and what are they offering to red bird? I am I would join between a American privately film called the red bird control by Sheikh Mansour the brother of the president of the UAE is three quarters back to financially by the UAE so essentially is a US state vehicle is delineation between individuals and the state over there and what are the two-stage deal stage 1 the fund will repay the Barclay families 1.2 billion debt to Lloyds the Barclay family then normally get back the assets including the Telegraph Media Group in The Spectator may be held separately from the family for a while stage 2 would involve 13 the Debt into equity so red bird.

I am I will essentially take control on the Telegraph and The Spectator via the debt.

Family has this been about the Barclays getting their titles back or is it simply about paying off their debts is all about not only their family and how they are very bad stretches to buy things like the Telegraph and the Ritz hotel and then obviously lost it and it sort of terrible food and Lloyds stepping in this is about as I can't see how the Barclays at the Telegraph at this stage because they owe 1.2 billion to Lloyds this latest as step is about Lloyds trying to get money back and it had launched in June it sees control and need to do a big auction Anna sorry is just outlined the latest development means that I found that by Abu Dhabi by Sheikh Mansour and has offered to pay that debt for the Barclays and that's where we are now with the culture secretary having to decide whether she will allow the Redemption so that Lloyds can as it wants to do.

Stage left and leave this very messy ownership of a national newspaper which is a regulated back is very uncomfortable and also whether she thinks.

There's a public interest in a review of another nation-state owning an important Media organization development today first reported by Skies Mark kleinman.

My tools is the Lloyds has now send a letter to the culture secretary Lucy Frazer telling her that the deal is ready to be repaid the money is ready to be repaired in other words.

They reached the deal with red bird.

I am I and the Barclay Oliver what's your take on that all you think about the money so that's what you're after then.

We just got to do this something that someone close to it said this is beyond their wildest Dreams in terms of recouping 1.2 billion.

Just sold on the open market expectations.

Are we got about 600 million for the Telegraph on about you know I'm 200 million for The Spectator so it's a lot more would get by selling assets already.

The national security and press freedom issues around at the culture secretary said she's minded to issue a public interest intervention notice.

What would that do is still determined to go ahead even if that's going to happen, so they can still probably do phase one and repay the debt that then as you say triggers a public interest notice and then they got them analyse whether it's appropriate for a Abu Dhabi State Bank vehicles take control of an influential stable titles and the point of the Telegraph still has about 750000 drivers.

It's very influential in the Tory Party and spectators the toy Potter's House journal in effect and then these title still speak to a very big powerful contingent in their Westminster beyond subscribers Daily Mail has a pole of Telegraph subscribers today which suggests they wouldn't renew their subscriptions if the new owners didn't share their values and laying those fears my explain why the Telegraph

Interview with Jeff zucker the xcnn boss leading the bed today.

He said he would resign if Abu Dhabi interfere and as they says as a mate earlier scandal.

He would say I wasn't here.

I mean it Media interference and political interference is always one of those things that at the time everybody swears blind there's no one picking up the phone and making them do the stories from the stories they run and not run the story so don't run and time again.

There's lots of evidence that that is not necessarily the case.

They don't need to actually shout and scream to take the way and policy.

I think I'm not interested in the male.

Did that pole also when you have to read the below the line comment something like I think Charles more rows columns, how to set of all three titles and the comments below the night in work made it pretty clear.

How many readers of the Telegraph our posted this particular?

And You Know It's Time It's fascinating story it's incredible that it's all of us.

He says that mean Lloyd this is beyond their wildest Dreams but what happens now is important.

I think Tony time is worth pointing out that your boss is one of the interested party that we understand it in buying The Spectator that's an issue for you, but we should point out to the listeners a lot of people say you know Man City game by Abu Dhabi for example is more significant, but is there something about access to power the owning a newspaper still provide that is key here.

Yeah definitely Man City and then that is reasonably don't choose next prime minister of Iron Man City and these titles are still very influential within the Tory Party and Westminster and I think the nature only a newspaper to a different kind of tycoon or figure doesn't it does elevate you above people just have money.

There are not many facets around that is so old and have the kind of brand and reputation Telegraph

Daily Mail The Spectator newspapers have and then only one just puts the owner in a different category to the billionaire in my own a few football clubs and Genesis weapon out your lots of Media assets in the UK already owned by foreign born known as well.

That's the Independent which has Saudi investment evening Standard under the curves of the last time.

I said about this couple of days ago and there is something different in one we should review doing the leopard purchase where he was hailed as this you know support free speech and then and 10 years later was on the sanctions list and then of course these Saudi investment in the Independent and standard 30% investment which by the time anybody was too late for the government to issue of public interest intervention at least this time Lucy phases got it right.

So these things are important.

I do think there is a difference with and

Boned and foreign state control particularly which we haven't mentioned Estate which he hasn't got a great reputation for press freedom.

I mean the rsf reports on Abu Dhabi it is worth saying and bring up the Independent that Geordie Greig is the editor of The Independent on this program.

You can listen back.

We had a discussion about that Saudi investment.

Is there absolutely past that doesn't have no role to play we will come back to more of this no doubt.

Thank you both for now you listen to the media show on BBC Radio 4 if you just turn tuning in earlier today.

I was at a conference dedicated to Public Service Broadcasting organised by the voice of the listener a charity.

I had the job of interviewing on stage the Ofcom chair Lord Michael grade.

He's been a huge figure in 4 decades top rolls at the BBC iTV and Channel 4 by the Daily Mail famously dubbed him pornographer in chief for commissioning programs that actually might seem pretty Tame by model.

Let me play the next track we were talking about the future of the licence fee you might have seen in recent days press coverage of a forecast by the office for budget responsibility that the licence for you could rise to nearly £2 by the end of the decade 186lbs to be precise I ask Lord grade, what sort of programmes the BBC should be making everybody everybody everybody entitled to something for them know we would argue that the BBC shouldn't have taken Morecambe and Wise from.itv and put them on the BBC nobody's going to argue that and the fact is you can't have his best can be incredibly created the streamers would never commission happy Valley or strictly you know so it has a rolled a bit and has to provide entertainment as well as melvyn, Bragg In Our Time and when it comes to the licence be difficult because you've been someone has had a lot of opinions through your career.

Yes, which is fair enough, but now your head off.

There's opinions are coming back to you, but you have for example said that you think the licence fee is a regressive.

That's not an opinion.

That's a fact it is an opinion in my pay the same for my licence fee as a pensioner pay the sofa my licence for you as a single mum with 3 kids and a rented Liverpool ok.

So how much would the licence to be worth for you? I'm in there would go up to £200 to £100 is that do you think it's worthwhile address for you? I think you've got to address the aggressive nature of it before you decide that.

Would you be willing to pay more than £200 so that other people paid less ok? See what you want to end up really personal personal times you not speaking both come here, but you would like to end up in a situation where people who can afford to pay more people who died if it's decided.

The great debate that we're going to have in charge of you that the licence fee or some form of licence fee should continue universal licence fee then we haven't got to that stage yet.

We still haven't had the debate about what we want from the BBC what it should cost and then how it's funny that because there are you know the lot of people would argue for scription lot of Ronaldo for advertising.

I think I think there's a big decision if you put the BBC in the competition revenue you can't expect the same outcome.

You can't expect fleabag and some of the more esoteric riffs at the BBC is taking criticism of the BBC doesn't take it off risks creatively speaking person that possibly maybe relation to budget is to do with the fat.

BBC is not in competition for revenue you can understand ITV channel 4 Channel 5 not wanting to take massive creative risks because it's you know it's it is the bottom line is very competitive market the advertising market is incredibly competitive now as I said you've also got huge amounts of commercial experience and the BBC is becoming more take Doctor Who which famous the acts in the 1980s the new version is now a big budget co-production with Disney and the Independent production company bad wolf is that the right direction of travel do you think BBC the there's no question that the licence fee payers give the money to the BBC to invest in programming that program has a value and intellectual property value and the BBC has a duty to maximise the value of the IP we the licence repairs, Who

And to maximise it as best they can and return that to the licence repairs with investing the prophets that they if they make a property investing the prophet in wonderful content for British audiences, and that's a virtuous circle that was Michael Lord grade speaking there.

I also asked him about impartiality about Ofcom investigations into GB news about the intriguing story told by in the green door is a form of culture secretary about Skulduggery around his appointment and much more will be putting up a longer version of the interview on the media Show podcast later today search for that in the BBC Sounds app, but listening to that is Jane tranter and also here is Hannah Walsh from a analysis you know everything there is to know about the licence fee and TV subscriptions hello welcome to the program.

I wonder what your reaction is to that you're an expert on the licence fee.

Yes, I mean a increasing the licence fee was inevitable it was announced 4 years ago rise in line with inflation has been frozen.

And I don't think any consumer really expected the UK economy to look so negative now so I think next year at the moment sucking to write about 89% and and how does the flat fee of that kind compared with what people spend all streaming services 186lbs a year as the overall conducting.

How does that compare so at the moment? We take the average UK streaming households are those that have a streaming service? They are spending about £180 and streaming services, but that will you just over 2 services for household, so actually you're actually spending £80 per service that you have so a lot less than that flat fee for the Lifeboat ok? As I said James James the co-founder of the production company bad wolf which is based in Cardiff and is behind the likes of his Dark Materials and I hate Suzie too as well as of course Doctor Who she was formerly the BBC's had a fit.

An executive vice president for programming and production at BBC worldwide and in 2005 was behind the relaunch of Doctor Who Jane before we get into that the licence fee you think the BBC should be funded in future.

I think of the BBC isn't funded by the licence fee than the BBC won't become it won't be a public service broadcaster and certainly some things like when we bought Doctor Who back in 2005.

That was a risk doesn't look very risky now 1720 years later whatever it is, but it was very risky then and the BBC has to have the space to be able to do things that other broadcasters maybe wouldn't do having said that and I agree with that part of what Michael great said but having said that if you want making drama the BBC is constantly competing for revenue it.

You can't make a drama on a BBC licence fee on its own so you're at the BBC is absolutely out there.

The product with Netflix or with any of the other streaming services and what did you make of loughrea the session at the BBC doesn't take enough risks? I don't think that's fair.

I think it's very easy to look at the BBC and only think about BBC One I think it's also in the yourself said at the start that actually when your grave open in chief in the past that actually some of those would look quite tame.

I don't think that's just because our idea of what's pornography has changed.

I actually think the BBC has got any easier and I think even on its primary channel BBC One I think it stretches the edges.

I would say that happy Valley is not a straightforward cop show I think it's very easy to say other people might want that now, but no one else was wanting it when it was first commissioned so I think the BBC across all of its different platforms.

We have to remember there are many of them takes an awful.

Lot of risks, but it's very

Strictly Come Dancing and forget about everything else he is a scrap Doctor Who in the 1980s.

He said was outdated and lost his magic you arrived it as I said and as you were saying that that was the one that paid off.

Why did you move it to Wales well? We moved it to Wells a partner pragmatic decision and it was also a creative decision it now when it's talked about it looks like it was actually something that was really sort through you know often these decisions.

You make as a commissioner on their instinctive pragmatically I have some money that I needed to spend in Wales Russell T Davies Welsh I have recently appointed Julie Gardner who was Russell's exactly producer on Doctor Who is had a drama for well.

They knew each other Doctor Who have to be filmed in a studio my country Shotton Wales I just couldn't see why shouldn't be and creatively.

I thought that Russell he was living in Manchester at the time in his workshop heart you wanted to go home.

You know there was an eye.

Perhaps it was romantic of bringing Doctor Who back to its home in the BBC and Russell to go home to Wells to make it and did that decision actually have a much wider impact on the local was that for me was thinking about then.

I didn't think about that at the time but you know I do know that success breeds success certainly Doctor Who then we have thus we have Torchwood and we have the Sarah Jane Adventures eventually just before I move to Los Angeles I also move casualty to be made from Cardiff in order to create a much bigger BBC and house production hub with Doctor Who but after that.

I think what happened as well the whole creative and production community in Wales growing confidence so when I was in loss and I chose to make sure call Da Vinci's Demons high-end television drama instead of going to Canada and said against South Africa and started going to hungry.

I took it to Wales I'm from that.

So I came back and set up bad wolf in Wales but none of that would happened if the nation haven't delivered it.

It's I think in a way.

We got to stop thinking how lucky well.

There's to have had Doctor Who and now I think how lucky Doctor Who is to have wealth ok will fast forward to now because Doctor Who was back.

I'm on BBC One at the we explain why this new series has got Disney involved in it so when the BBC came to Russell in an actor great genius.

I think that they saw maybe just maybe Russell T Davies wanted to travel through space and time again, they they had a conversation with him about what it would take Russell felt that Doctor Who need the brackets taken off at his beloved in this country.

There's no other sci-fi show in the world.

That's wrong for 60 years.

It's quite extraordinary me and for the bit where Michael

Accepting a bit when Michael grade accident and it and indeed last Michael grated did not like it when I bought it back in 2005 and actually asked if it was possible to bring it back was it too late and and I said yes, it is too late.

It wasn't too late, but I said it was too late although he himself has said you was wrong.

So you know we all make mistakes knowledge, so Russell wanted to take the brackets off it and he said if I return I want to have Doctor Who be able to compete with someone for example the Marvel franchise is the song was franchises and he believes that it was like a funding no lack of really be able to push the production values to make it work alongside other dramas in 2023 so we were tasked with going out and helping the BBC bringing a co-production partner and Disney came along getting that deal BBC bad wolf and Disney Plus has been described as represent.

Picture of more aggressively commercial BBC Studios on the sound is one of the biggest deal struck and BBC Studios history and it's reported the episode budget have gone from around 3 million lbs to 10 million lbs is right and what do you spell the extra cash on in my dreams is the budget 10 million pounds is more than it was before yes, and I'm hoping I'm hoping that was bad.

I'm not commenting but around that yes, I'm hoping that viewers will be able to see where the extra money has gone but it's everything the sets are a bit bigger.

The Tardis is a bit bigger.

The meat was brought to the screen using visual effects as well as using a a wonderful phone number for map in in a costume.

So everything has come to life in a different way and episode by episode when viewers see the episode this Saturday for example.

It's so innovative.

Where we're keeping it very much on the raps.

There's not an awful.

Lot I can say but we've not seen anything like it on British television and it's the additional funding from Disney that has allowed that while at the same time the BBC presents and the bad wolf presents in it ensures that the show fundamentally stays the same the first time you've done this sort of thing because you made his Dark Materials BBC which is a partnership with HPS so did you learn from that how to do these deals or is it just building bigger and better in time so I didn't do the Doctor Who do the wee on Disney but that doctor who delivers absolutely between the BBC and Disney plus.

It's nothing to do with bad wolf recently make the Show I did do the deal on his Dark Materials but I think critically the point is on his Dark Materials we learn how to produce on a much bigger budget and in the UK British producers.

Don't normally do that normally what happens is HBO

Celebrities come and they make these things themselves in the UK even if they using British talent, but his Dark Materials was really one of the first ones where we did it ourselves.

It's like homegrown and so we were able when the call for Doctor Who Came To just produce on that much bigger scale and Hannah from Amber and I just want to bring you back in is the BBC partnering up with the big us streamer the future.

Do you think does it allow the BBC Persian live departure Roberts weight deals been carried out around the world and I think it does allow for your content to travel outside of its market.

I know Disney glasses that younger audience that family oriented structures across age groups.

So it's a really great idea to partner with a company like Disney and push that is around the world especially when you've got no new recognisable actors in doctors involved as well that can also appeal to a younger audience is who's more known in America Jane

Santa Duty or David Tennant so and that got a huge amount so possibly shooty but on the other hand David Tennant is the last year and had it just before we go I forwarded the fascinating story over the weekend about how much Amazon the US had spent for the TV rights to an NFL game on Black Friday tell us about it because the sums of money involved are truly mind-blowing.

Yes, so they already have rights for Thursday night, but this is a separate deal.

It was 100 million for one game and it was on Black Friday and if I have never done a black Friday again before so it's quite unique for them as well and essentially what to do with Diana e-commerce platform to the game so having QR codes the router that Direct people to their platform and spend money with Amazon making back that 100 million.

What they're looking today and do you see this as being the future ask you that about BBC funding is this also the future? I think that in video shockable advertising will definitely be something that Amazon do they looking to have ads Mowgli on the platform and make sense for them in order to drive from people towards their platform QR codes and Doctor Who Jane no I can't see I can't see the doctor proving that I don't think the doctor would approve that either well.

It's been great that you are all on this program James Martin Sunday just a very quick last word for me.

We are about to but have you heard about the Amazon deal? There is no I mean it's fascinating to listen to it.

You think you know this is the world's the different worlds remove again.

You've got the common saying that Sam £159 a year for the BBC is probably too much regressive tax and then you got 100 million dollars one game.

Things you can buy really well, that's something to end on the thought end on thank you all so much for coming on the media show and of course thanks to everybody for listening, goodbye.