Read this: Conspiracy theories and the Israel Gaza conflict

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 what's the Sunday Times has Louise Callaghan is here to talk about conspiracy theories in the Israel Gaza war and one of the biggest names in the world of entertainment TV Peter Fincham is also on the programme.

He's behind Downton Abbey I'm Alan Partridge the Only Way Is Essex and much more and he's got a new podcast about TV hello Peter I wondered what your reviewing next cos you're supposed to be helping us to say but I know you don't like anything that you have your dad's week.

I don't think that was that was bad week, but you can't you know you you can't be sure until you watch them this week.

We're reviewing 00072 a million drum Michael the newsreader.

That's come back on BBC 2 and also something is getting a lot of this today Robbie Williams

Biographical documentary called Robbie Williams has definitely watching at the glasses here now totally forgot that have you seen apologies? I knew that the progress is still have you got a lot later here also is Daniel Thomas in global who's global Media editor for the Financial Times and you'll hear Daniel thank you very much to help me with the King's Speech what's to you when it comes the media is a big day.

I stay for the media sector as well as quite a lot in the media bill even though it doesn't appear to be the most controversial or exciting at first glance but there's something for everyone else industrial thing for radio the most important of all the time for the TV sex and particular public sector broadcasters enshrines the ideas around prominent prominent again is on his kind of terms that TV exact talk about him inside of you know in any rush x get it secures their spot on the digital TV of the future.

Where was that they the BBC for example ITV win?

Going to be prominent the TV manufacturers if you leave it to streamers overtime, they can gradually be pushed down that can be written to the nether regions of the of the the programming guides you know right now.

We know that your TV you'll probably have a carousel apps and programs are right at the top which will show you but just off you probably don't want to watch that much underneath there.

They'll be the ones the iPlayer ITV exes and other streaming services and this legislation really just safeguards that future so they lose that spot on the TV then there's loads of girls they lose their importance and more importantly the UK loses sense of its own identity as it does it broadcast you know in the next 1020 years increasing and the streams also been brought in his Media bill living put under Ofcom for the first time a level playing field with a stream and they haven't like that particularly big you as technology groups.

Never like more regulation is described as

This is one of the things that we we we come to accept as same time is perfectly fair.

It seems that everyone gets the same rules to play Under and it stops harmful content and ultimately I can be a good thing and Peter Fincham I wonder what your senses of this Media bill.

Yeah, you run this big production company expectation and see me make TV for both locals and the streamers.

I think it's where is sings one of the things that covered is Channel 4 and enabling Channel 4 to get into in-house production impact the Independent or not.

Well.

I think it but I don't think it.

I'm not sure to be that radically in packed bed channel 4 was set up 40 years ago one of its purposes was to Foster the growth of The Independent production company in production sector sector has grown a lot since then if you like it used to swim with armbands on it certainly doesn't anymore so you know broadly speaking it should be robust enough to take the some more the devil will be.

The detail how many programmes for Channel 4 seek to make what sort of programmes what percentage their output or the value that they like to make in-house will have to see it for Channel 4 itself.

This is no panacea to Channel 4 challenges channel 44 naturally very challenge at the moment getting into independent production on other in-house production in a very very competitive market with a lot of big and Powerful players some owned by organisations vastly larger than Channel 4 is not a walk in the park.

So I will see anything happening incredibly quickly.

I think over a period of time.

They will probably take up the opportunity to do it and grow but I don't think about guarantees.

I can how much independent Chanel still increase the guarantee for what's called qualifying Indies which genuine Indies that that aren't owned by some super indie groups and son.

I think we will see change, but I don't think this is the beginning of the end of The Independent sector and something ok, we're going to be talking to Daniel a you in a bit further down the program, but I want to turn to the conflict in Israel and Gaza and the role that conspiracy theories are playing people listening.

You have seen a meme doing the rounds that purports to be a Palestinian man playing various roles the suggestion and forgive me if this is expensive in this context is that this guy is a stooge who is used to exaggerate the death toll Louise Callaghan is the middle east end of the Sunday Times and he's you've been investigating this story, but before we get to that hello but also you are calling this guy a Crisis actor and some social media users are referring to what's happening as Hollywood mix of Palestine and Holly can you just explain these terms for people haven't heard them that was invented around 2012 by a conspiracy.

Theorist who are challenging the existing.

Of the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting so I don't know if you remember, but there was a 20 little kids that were killed in the school and there was online he was saying that this wasn't true that the actors that these little children who are actors so you can see the kind of pernicious horrifying roots that at this time comes from since then it's been picked up by a number of other so I've covered Wars in Syria and in Ukraine wear that and then the Russian leadership and turn have been popularising this idea and what it is as the idea that so when you see the site of a bombing on master villain deaths than a plant the seed of doubt is this real these actors now.

I think the idea that you think about it the idea that you could be saying these last large-scale massacres with actors will know whether there's so much information coming out consistently from so many sources about the horror that's

Play some today, but once that seed of doubt if planted than that allows act bad actors to muddy the waters and make it into this kind of Grey zone.

What can you believe? What's real? What is it? Let's talk about the one that you've been investigating you know it's the case of a guy called salah.

Al jawharah.

The meme I'm looking at right now has nine photos on it 1 shows the bag and is labelled revised Corps another is labelled revive patients and has a guy in hospital bed that he turns up in different parts of Gaza actor a role of Israel's official Twitter account posted a picture of him saying don't let these cheap and badly director films4u, #bollywood, what did you find was there any truth to it this mean that you're talking about different pictures it a few of them pictures of him from his Instagram account.

There's nothing secret.

There is just a different outfits and different places and the other one that the one that you mentioned with there's a picture of a court.

Shroud body and which is singing up in and texting on the phone we invitation obviously being that.

It's a fake body, but if you just do it really simple reverse search right click.

Reverse Google you can see that that image was posted a joke about a year ago and it's actually a picture of a tie child and a Halloween costume it was dressed up to the Halloween 1-year and then so it's really not difficult related to to sit there and go through and try and find where these originally came from but unfortunately it's just been presented in this way as if to muddy the waters take into the grey zone of Truth dinner.

Is this real as I would like to bring in seana Davis at this point she is Miss information specialist at reuters fact check team are welcome to the program.

I know you've been investigating some of these images.

What did you find your team is the looking more broadly as well at the narrative that there is a crisis actors pertaining to this particular complex individual even mentioned one such claim was that he was faking it injuries.

Image shows an individual that in hospital bed with there two different people we managed to trace the individual that was in the hospital bed to a tiktok account that shows somebody who is the local news report months ago who was injured in the west bank not Gaza and documenting his recovery key lost a leg and it's not the individual that's being shared that so what can happen if people take two particular images of two different people and they say it's the same person but if you look closely at the tiktoks of both they actually quite different when they do look different when you look closely figure out who is in this image.

What where when and someone is camp in the Sunday Times your conclusion is busy.

What that this guy is a normal guy and Influence server this meme misrepresents things that he posted online 30-seconds can just go and look them up on Instagram see that he's

Videos of himself that he could be is that the idea if you're the one making as this claim is this meme claims? I completely ridiculous claim that the idea that there is an actor who is running around staging various roles you need to prove it.

It's not up to the fact Chequers and the janitor working this individually go and disprove all these claims and that's also part of the missing.

It's a tie up.

I think that tie up the kind of resources into sitting and constantly disproving ridiculous name and then that means that turns up changing the narrative and money in the waters because as we're sitting here talking about it.

We're almost further propagating these claims that have been made and also other organisations can get dragged into it.

BBC News used a bit of one of his videos on the 6:00 news last Friday it showed the bloody aftermath of an Israeli airstrike on an ambulance that is well said the vehicle was being used biomass which of course is a proscribed organisation by the UK and others some criticise the BBC for using his footage and accused BBC a falling for Hamas propaganda, but your research seems to debunk the criticism and the BBC tell if it is used in our coverage of carefully checked and verified to ensure its authenticity.

I would like to bring in Dr Robert to pink here.

He is a senior lecturer in the school of creative arts culture and communication at work and Rob Louise was saying earlier.

You know this originated with Sandy Hook in the US just give us a bit more information on that yeah, that's true.

That's kind of words to a university professor write a blog post accusing the Sandy Hook children, but also the parents of being crisis actors in one thing he said it was a actual cast.

4 greatest actors for a mass shooting drills because it is a real pain in the ass or something that routine mass shooting drills and there's lots of videos produced so people know how to find in the case of national crisis actors just suggest that was used to it by conspiracy.

Theorist call major events like 9/11 false flag attack.

You know something that was an inside job was conspiracy theory about 9:11 anytime there's a kind of fast moving news story with clinical implications and it often controversial political implications is Crisis actor me more pop up so easily said at the school shootings knew it was really Common People climbing people.

Where is that crisis actors in Ukraine and course this recently were talking about?

Louise just come back to that case and and more widely in this conflict the Israel Gaza conflict you how YBR allegations are crisis actors being made isn't just about this and it's on the other side.

Yes absolutely has come through on both sides completely horrifying claims made made from supporters of the pro-palestinian cause that the family is the Israeli hostages being interviewed about a huge amount of the Hollywood this time you mentioned earlier the idea that this is somehow completely invented sort of films set that none of this is real Indian social media posts by supporters of the bjp the ruling bjp.

They said that because so much of the information published in India Focuses on anti-muslim content the idea of putting a narrative against Muslims has now jumped on on to this war in Gaza with the idea that you should watch out for what's happening Israel because if it's allowed to continue then I Could Happen India to and Shona David just bring it back in from reuters.

How do you deal with this stuff when you're confronted with an image you how do you tackle it Louise O'Neill it's really important and often times.

It's not complicated.

So you're lying social media can take a few steps and figure it out it it's about you know having a strategy that you can do it doesn't have to change so knowing the Who the Floss the where the one in the white.

It's what you know any journalist do the story in terms of the Crisis actor claims.

Optical imaging you say ok, who is this particular individual? What is it showing? Where was the film? Was it filmed before this particular complex? When was it filmed? Why was it? So she doesn't show station is a real what what? What does it show just using those techniques that we would you do anyway.

It doesn't differ you know when you're online and you're looking at a particular the comment section you can see ok? What are people saying underneath? It doesn't have to change reverse image search for something that Louise also mentions that something we were doing a daily basis.

Just taking a screenshot of searching for an online seeing that can tell you within seconds whether something is old whether it you know was featured in particular news article previously and just using that every single time and Rob pink of Berk bag.

You study conspiracy theories how widespread.

Do you think is this belief in them?

They don't have to have people actually believe in them to spread it sell Louise was talking about you know that after spending his licence after being on purpose which absolutely happens, but also what happens is your people other people are trying to do this you doing and BBC verified do great things people online to do that social media or emotion machine.

We see things that resonate with us and we share them.

So they are often easy to do but that's not how we use social media.

I think for the most people are clever people smart but also responding to wipe engages them emotionally a problem with the booking for people working committed conspiracy theories is that often taken as proof that the mainstream Media is debunking it becomes proof that they really want us to not talk about this still trying to show the style so in away debunking unfortunately can.

Ok, thanks.

How are you listening to the media show on BBC Radio 4? I'm sure it's not the last time.

We're going to discuss these sorts of issues at when it comes to this conflict but I want to turn because it is still with us one of the TV world big players is smiling there has been controller of BBC One director of television and ITV Downton Abbey The One Show I'm Alan Partridge I just some of his around the production company TalkBack and set up his own independent expectation and he's even got his own new TV reviews podcast Peter it's called that.

I'll get it right this time.

Have you in your team that with mariella Frostrup how many hours of TV today? Are you actually watching television and I actually sing channels.

What's another television you could you call it Duty watching that doesn't mean that we done enjoyed you might you might absolutely love your out but you know you you need to keep a cross.

It's very liberating when you no longer.

Do they think I can watch them to pleasure and I can watch things just because I really fancy them and they might not be things that I've got any relationship to at all and what's a lovely about doing a podcast is that isn't a producer decides and says we we talk about 3 shows each week with me and Mario and we always have a guest as well and the Producers here.

They are and you sit and watch them that I've no idea.

What did might be like or would I have watched it and the purpose of the podcast is to recommend 2 people watch this or don't watch it and and and it what lies behind.

This is that as we all we live in a world of so much choice so many platforms are all the streamers all the traditional broadcasters and one of the most common conversations of everybody involved in this in this program has this conversation with people say what have you seen lately? What do you recommend WhatsApp that new six-part series? Is it as good as they say that separates so that's what we're therefore was so

As a service to listen if they're a bit of nostalgia in it because killing people don't watch TV in the same way your generation data example generation.

Do they do people still want people to tell them what I think? I don't really think it matters.

How people watched television no great believer that the platforms or technology m.

It's content content content.

I mean prints and young people people from the gen Z generation.

They what we talked about the podcast the other day they watch television with the subtitles on and I can't work out.

Why might as well and I feel like saying looks the same actress delivered beautifully why do you want to reduce it to a spelling what that means is a basic look at their phones.

They got rid of subtitles that they insist on having so you know we watch television in your own way and her own time.

I also think we watch television.

All sorts of different moods so sometimes we really are watching television for excellence and we want to watch a beautifully made drama that television also is relaxation and he might have a guilty pleasure thing that we're watching that we still having this is very good, but I'm enjoying it in this moment and what's wrong with that all these things are legitimate reasons for watching and I want to look now and where and how TVs changed over the course of it, but of all the shows you can mission and worked on.

What are you most proud of is it commissioning Downton Abbey for example the One Show well? Those are very different so I would say in terms of global basis.

Very big global hit you know there are many countries in the world where that wouldn't what is the 100 greatest UK magazine show I think the one show was when I was concerned BBC One yes at that time the particular slot at since 19 with a

Morgans bored of different shows some of the work and someone who didn't and my only insight cos I've lived over over play the controls role has to say we've lost something in early evening television is 1 steps into by shows like Nationwide that some people might remember and that is a that something audiences loved it actually is a term that never fashionable.

It's a magazine program and news spread.

There's a lot of news on television using the same as having a show of that's all so in a way that was the god of that.

That's the thought that occurred to me and the inside that's a very different process because they're your as the control your thing I think we should do this.

Let's find the people to do it.

Let's work out.

What is using it's on when your commissioning something like Downton Abbey you're something else is written script and developed it and you read it and think this could be good this could be brilliant and an often the things that work well are the improbable things because I I

He was not associated with with lavish period drama.

See your swimming against the tide which is often the best way to swim and on that occasion.

Yeah, brilliant.

You know how to add an enormous and successful run, but commissioning is it's it's an art not a science believe me so long side those and I'm glad you're mentioned Katie are all the so you think I thought that was going to work and then you can it and then turns on my own.

No I was wrong and you know it's it's a very exposed.

I think I actually think making programs is much more commissioning you actually got to make it but a commission was very exposed if you get it wrong everybody knows about earlier episodes about Beckham documentary on Netflix as being a guilty pleasure and I'm interested.

You said this TV is changed.

It's a new thing isn't that the the program is made by production company owned by the subject.

Commentry, it's not that new thing but it seems to be very widespread at the moment and I've got very mixed feelings about it.

If you take a more traditional view of of the art of documentary made the editorial decision making lies with the program maker there's a very good examples of the documentary made about 20 years ago by brilliant programme called Molly dineen, and she made a show about Geri Halliwell and she was the height of the Spice Girls fame and there's a scene in the in the in the film that encapsulates this she's on a plane with Geri Halliwell Geri Halliwell's on the phone to somebody says.

Oh, yeah, I'm making this film with this Molly dineen.

She's really nice you sitting opposite, but don't worry.

I've got editorial control.

I'll decide what goes out and it says would you haven't actually I'm sorry to say Jerry I've got a bit of control and it's a really good scene in the film now.

We do worry about that would Beckham

In in in in our episode 2 comes up tomorrow morning we review the new Robbie Williams documentary that basically consists of Robbie Williams sitting on his bed in his underpants.

I don't know why watching footage of his earlier self talking about himself.

It is quite a narcissistic thing and the simile with the Beckham documentary.

There's no pretence that anybody other than the Beckhams said this is The Final Cut with you like enough to me.

I think that's a shame and that undermines if you like the editorial point of documentary making I've got to feed the fans of the Beckhams and of Robbie Williams Sword of don't care.

They just love it and I'll wrap it up and I think the Beckhams got a lot of you and I'm sure the Robbie Williams does but as a sign of the times in the past you could say it.

It's a mixed sign of the Times if the if the people on screen rotate controlling out there portrait size.

What about your career mode?

Does it still rankle that you were forced to resign as controller of BBC One over a misleading re-edited trailer for a program that it's been a year with late Queen you must have no no it doesn't rank in the least and in fact when it happens in many many years ago, so I'm guessing most people will often come up to me and say oh that's really unfair that you've had to leave because that and you know that time I would say what I done over this.

I think it was a big it was something went badly wrong when the BBC and the royal family clash The Clash big and could this mean we've got plenty of examples of this and plenty since what happened to me all those years ago and you you better get you certainly made so so yeah, what's happened and I'd love working at the BBC but I went on to have a great job on iTV for many years.

Channel at the Nation's it's down to watch exactly the people in this building currently a grappling with I believe there's a big strategy update coming out before they give us a bit more guidance about where the the the the forecast is going to be more significant shift and then have to Peterborough suggesting.

I think what the BBC Two to my children to your children will be finding a different to what it means to ask when we are growing up, what channel 4 means and they're fighting for their lives to something with the fighting for identity with that new generation WhatsApp tick tock please.

It's usually more to say my 10-year-old than BBC which is just another app on the iPad for him.

So that is a real problem and I think it comes down to what you're saying which is good content for sure but given that there's no it is going to be such a proliferation of different ways up to consumer different producers of that.

It's just going to be a fight their lives and there is no doubt the times are hard in.

Markets forecast to contract by 7% this year today ITV said it because in 10 million from its content spend for the year.

What does that mean on that level and there's always threat coming at the BBC in it from politicians people want to stop the licence fee and son to you could look even turned his head and say from the point of view of the use of newer.

They never had so much television so it kind of cuts both ways of any which end of the telescope you're you're you're looking in eyes as long as I've worked the television.

They have been saying the end is nigh like the sort of you know the guys too Wonderland Oxford Street with the sandwich board on the saying you know it's all about to come to an end.

It hasn't happened yet.

The BBC's are very adapt organisation and I'm by nature an optimist and a believer in it, so I don't think you know the lights about this building anytime soon.

Thank you all for coming on.

That was the media show this is the media show you can catch up with other episodes on BBC sounds, goodbye.