Read this: Al Jazeera and the information war

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 the news to raise money pressing questions about how the media is covering the conflict there are profound challenges to reporting on Israel's bombardement Gaza for those journalist in Gaza and for the many outside of it will hear about the dangers and the practical challenges challenges mean that video being shared by messaging apps such as WhatsApp and social media is a vital aspect of reporting the war but of course far from every video is what it claims to be we'll talk to an Israeli organisation that is trying to counter disinformation and we'll discuss it as reporting teams in Gaza and an influential role within the regions medium and I'd like to bring in international correspondent.

Dependant who's weather from Israel and Bell as you of course.

We'll well know there was an Israeli attack on the Germany refugee camp in Gaza on Tuesday evening the remote control health ministry says £50 billion for killed Israel says it killed a senior Hamas commander and targeted underground Tara infrastructure and given that you can't be in Gaza bell.

I wonder you go about reporting a story such as this it's because this is my fourth floor in this region and usually within God's so you can go to seeing you can sit with the rising took two witnesses is hard when you're removed from that syra line from sources from the ground so first off.

There are on the ground.

I'm a senior journalist and he work for international organisations and they also have video footage from the ground you cross a preference that with videos that have been shared on Palestinian social media.

And then I'm in touch with doctors on the ground so I'm in touch of doctors in the Indonesian hospital and Shifa hospital for two large hospitals that were receiving the weirdest they were sending me photos and they were also talking me through the process and then as well.

You talk to you is really sorry to ask them comment on what happens and I just literally came out of a briefing right now with the senior international the idea.

He was talking about that strike about what their targets were and then you talk to international organisations in the UN have people on the ground as well and you basically build up a picture from that but again and every sides is a keys in the other side of being biased and preventing you the truth from getting out or elaborating on numbers.

It's a long process and its but it's really important because the tree has to get out and build the work that you describe gets more difficult when there are issues with communication and for a time this week.

There's been a communication black.

In Gaza the telecoms company power tools reported her complete disruption of internet and mobile phone services in guys are although we have some news agency reports that that connectivity may be coming back in a few hours.

Is there any way you can get around that when the blackouts happened? No, I mean I view an official so basically saying they couldn't get through to their staff.

They had a single single a signal to the director who is in the South of Gaza happen, which did have a second time overnight impossible it goes dark and then we have to say never get me rely on John lesson organisations that are on the ground.

You do have satellite capabilities and as you mentioned earlier and I'll just Serious got one of the biggest teams on the ground the BBC correspondent there on Channel 4 and then they are reporting that comes really really important.

It's really hard because people just literally you can't get through to anyone on the ground and it's really frightening and

Far more frightening than people on the ground because they can't even call ambulances.

I can't even check on their family members and it bleeds panic you mentioned the risks for people in Gaza according to the committee to protect cells of November 1st 31 journalists were confirmed dead in this conflict 26 Palestinians in Gaza for Israeli journalist killed in Hamas attack on the 7th of October and 11 is 2 is working for reuters was killed in Southern Lebanon close to the border with Israel another reuters journalist at the scene said they had been filming missile Fire coming from the direction of Israel bringing a guest from the UAE newspaper the national bell in that briefing you just been in did you ask about the communications blackout? Did you ask the idf the Israeli military if you were responsible we have asked and there's been no comment on that side, but at least from the organisation for monitoring back out.

They said that they believe it is coming to me.

Hybrid Nations work as a journalist, I'm no expert on on network disruption, so I couldn't say but you really saying this is a war zone.

It's very done is situation will happen and as you mention.

There are lots of journalists have been killed in this violence and that doesn't even include unless his family members have been killed.

So it's not just unless you are actually been killed in attack, but we've had reports of you know I've lost their families or his family to be interesting as well as extra pressure on standard operating in the ground.

They're living this one as well as trends report on it so no comment to you and your journalistic colleagues and their briefing in the last hour or two from the Israeli military previously when they're being a blackout telecoms in Gaza and Israel spokesperson had declined to see whether Israel was behind the Blackout that said it would do what it needed to protect.

buses to join Bell here on the media show let's bring in Ismail a editor of The english-language Daily newspaper the National in the United Arab Emirates and is now you're very well on the media show I know that you work with freelancers in Gaza tell us about the practicalities of that working relationship each day, but only show we work with a network of freelancers and contributors and do before the war violence 2:201 sparkly impossible because you do have weather in crossing from the inside you needed to get permissions first of all from a second condition that come from the government controlling so even before the worry or after they were that's something to consider so a lot of International

Do rely crucially invited me on Palestinian this is there there in the reporting of the wheel arch mirror library on a relationship with one particular course and you're calling her on the first day on October 7th October 1st days of reporting was giving a straight over the phone where we write the pieces and get back something that's very scary for you try to check in with her every 30 minutes during the day and then the first call to her phone number everyday at 7.

Alright, I'm here now.

Just to make sure she doesn't pick up as there's still on Friday and similar to last night that she was feeling a signs on the aftermath of the refugee camp contact with the doctors moving speaking to the hospital at the hospital as well and this morning we received word from her that inspires.

You said we can't overstate how much the baby is journals risking what a professional personal but also motor on a psychological level 2 report describing the

Between your team at the National and one particular colleague reporting for you in Gaza to our conversation, let's also bringing shame oppenheim journalist BBC monitoring changing your based in Israel and you're a specialist at looking at Crosshouse stories play out in the regional Media I wonder differences you see in the Dynamics around stories such as the strike on the refugee camp on Tuesday between what you seeing Palestinian media and what you seeing Israeli Media compare is really media and Palestinian Media you get two very different pictures of you look.

How is really Media reported on the strength and it's very much through the lens of is the Israeli army straightening military targets on is very much of the Land of the army saying that be killed quite central a masked figure that.

Something that was very central to kind of Hamas command centre a lot last focus on the civilian death toll their civilian impact.

How that feels Gardens on the ground and if you look at the website, they must have deleted Media more specifically things like that was saying information centre.

She has and it's a very different picture.

They use language like massacres another Holocaust the very heavily focused on the very high data.

Not only on that strike, but as a result best war at large.

I'm interest to use the phrase hamus affiliated Media does that effectively mean Media that is saying exactly what Hamas would like to be put out effectively Wednesday that is quite accurate yes, and what about the relationship between the main news media sources in Israel and the go.

And the military Wilton normal times, I think there's a little bit more room for maybe criticism for questions, but now we've seen this shoot advert on behalf of Israeli Media to kind of get behind this or offered me seem a little bit last questioning a little bit more endorsement of the armies versions of Dance by and it's really needier and the hospital strike in Gaza City I believe it was 2 months ago was a great example of dad was very much.

Sorry not a strike.

It was a blast was very much kind of putting the question.

There's really are me saying that it was a failed Islamic Jihad rocket launch Hamas saying that it was an Israeli army strike if you look at the way that is really Media reported that they said cry unequivocally that it was a failed rocket launch and other people listening to you.

Just as I am thinking that what you're describing is extraordinary.

You are effectively looking at to media sources and seeing the same war describing completely different terms absolutely interesting that perhaps in previous rounds of fighting maybe there is a little bit more room for some kind of similar and maybe basis of you look for example.

The West Wing is really hard usually they have a little bit more questioning of what happened.

Maybe a little bit more focused on the feasibility and impact in the Gaza strip.

They are known for their very opinionated opinion pieces and editorials their Craig critical of Israeli policies in occupied West bank and Gaza this time we've seen that usually be my kind of calendar question The Killing of children's in the Gaza strip we have not seen any such a date Oreo song by that is really really hard.

kind of more of this joint after an even if you watch for example and Israeli news broadcaster see all these little logos on the screen up is really flags.of slogans that says together with routine is really Media kind of the Instagram accounts to disseminate English language messaging very kind of pro-israel messaging the world to know what happened on October 7th and they want it to come to get put in English thank you very much indeed for the moment your adrenaline BBC monitoring this week been hearing monitors both Palestinian and Israeli media and asbel true from the Independent alluded to earlier one of the crucial sources of information when covering happening in Gaza at the moment in particular is video videos off and shared by messaging apps like WhatsApp and telegram all videos posted on social media, but of course the monks some videos which

Real there's an awful lot of disinformation to and let's talk about that with IKEA shelves executive director of fake reporter.

It's an Israeli disinformation group that established by researchers activation open source investigation expert.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us just tell us in a bit more detail the work that your organisation does yeah, so wake up order is as you said, what's that were going to say shin? We try to bite and come back all kind of malicious activity online such as this Information Centre Kings Lynn complaints with B and trade account hate speech and online violin.

We really tried to promote digitalized and work hard to have a safer more than mechanical nights and obviously these moments.

It's pretty hard to say that from the moment of that we realise there is a vacuum of information people were very confused.

And my fear and inside the spec of information endless entities and people came in and completed the missing information themselves creating disinformation campaign organised and authentic with some people who just simply spread conspiracies and we've been fighting that sentence the day of the meaning of the word you been doing this work for a number of years.

How do the last 3-weeks compare with the challenges you faced before then we open a war room with pre-teens one that is dedicated to refuse disinformation.

We have teams of volunteers experts and other organisation coming together to look for refute them as fast as we can second second team is working round the clock on collecting all kind of the

And violence into a digital down with great Leica digital dome against harmful content and the 13 is dedicated to locate online organised violence especially against activist left a stand and Arab citizens of Israel and as you do that work.

Do you feel that what you're trying to do is possible or do you feel like you're standing on the beach and trying to stop the tide coming in to do you like that but other times? I think that we managed to the Future all kind of when they're small.

There's few things that is really about saving lives for example.

There's been a wave of lies and pictures and videos of citizens of Israel taking photos or looking like taking photos of Building and houses inside Israel in different cities.

Reports came to the police and generally at panic Oliver's real online saying they're about to start an internal war between of Israel that are Arabs and Jews and we were working round stop checking exactly each and every piece what it was and it also pushing the police and his role in the end and the newsrooms in Israel to refuse that understand that process that part of the process more you spot something that's not true you decide to combat it but often the disinformation can go further than the the check on this information.

So what are your tactics with in Israel to give your work impact? How do you do that? So first? We used two things one different doors are seen to of open-source intelligence 20 and all kind of the technologies, but the main work we do is crowdsourcing reports.

We know that the public has.

Is everywhere and the fact that we have a you know? What's a group that right away you can send a message with asking about some peace of the information.

It goes straight to my team it might be sitting on WhatsApp groups and each person take a different piece of information to verify or refute it as fast as you can and then distributed out both to influence social media and to journalist and listening to you is Ismail who joined us earlier and it smelled from the National in this environment where there is so much disinformation being pushed out but there is also a demand from the audience to know the very latest on this most important story at the moment.

How do you balance that? Are you nervous about you any piece of information coming your way because it may not be something you can trust me and you know where in the age of this was in the age of social media.

I covered the Warren 14 and 2008 from Windows to Wars when again there's a heavy reliance on journalist, but any video that's coming out of social media from ASDA we try to ban in the sense that if we can verify any footage.

We do that double and triple track anything open and honest this in terms of producing a video or an incident to help me with that information as such but when we try to get our correspondence to to double-check different incidence and when it comes to anything.

Unique position, I'm very open and Frank officials as well as a military.

So I'm always constantly trying to get what I'm getting out of changing both sides to you.

Just have been as well the work that you do to try and Report accurately on what's happening in Gaza belt route from the Independent was doing that as well and Belle alluded to the presence of Al Jazeera in Gaza and I want to spend the next few minutes on the media show talking about Al Jazeera because it's an important part of the media equation in this story is owned by the Qatari state that has TV and digital output in English and Arabic one of the oldest regional news broadcaster and has a substantial presence in Gaza we know that the US news reported that US Secretary of State Antony blinken ask the guitarist to turn the volume down on Al Jazeera

Average down because it's full of anti-israel incitement that was according to one source now the BBC can't confirm that but there is no doubting the profile of Al Jazeera is coverage in the region.

We also 202 take part today the network said no one was available but we can speak to Pudsey Bear professor Emeritus of journalism and public diplomacy at the University of Southern California also order the book The Al Jazeera effect professor.

Thanks for joining us on the on the media show how would you categorise algeciras place in the region of the media the media of the region was St L20 creation and 1996 at his always recognise that it has a principal constituency in the Arab World that was one of the reasons that was created with the Catholic news organisation that serve a largely Arab audience and given that Wars are political as well as military.

Significant because not only does it affect the the so-called herb Street but their english-language broadcast is the seen all over the world and has also called Boudica constituency in the Global cell and we look at a global public opinion about what is going on in Gaza now L20 is a huge audience port erroll banana of that shape.

We can have an impact on the Politics of their own countries and so that that's a pretty important role for Al Jazeera and she not open her from BBC monitoring tell us about Israel's attitude towards our 20cl Jazeera as this kind of an outlet that closes up to Hamas and as we know I just aerospace and guitar guitar does have relations with Moss View Barry unfavourably many Palestinians in the West

Gaza Israel Palestinian citizens of Israel very much like out of your very popular here and they're having a first most recently about Barcelona task two kind of shadow summer beer logo and functions in Israel and I believe it was a week or two ago, and there's really government-approved emergency regulation that would allow it to kind of shutter and media coverage that work too hard national Security interests and now this is not directly interact 0 but it was said to have kind of some kind of groundworks to shut down.

I'll do it would still need to go through several steps and although these regulations have been improved.

I believe that it would need to be a case.

We need to be brought before the Security Council I believe that a District Court would have to approve.

Shining down some kind of media company, but it does seem that Israel is kind of taking steps to possibly shutdown Al Jazeera but does play an interesting role, because it was not missing it was be first or it is one of the only kind of pan-arab outlets that does regularly hosts is really gas.

We see frequently even throughout this on war Israel military spokesman.

Going on Al Jazeera and kind of being able to kind of be have their position cannot portrayed to the arabic-speaking world.

I should say the Arabic channel was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme earlier this week and when asked whether it covered the conference from both sides Mohammed my wife said if you tune on Al Jazeera you will find our supporting from Tel Aviv from steroid from masculine from everywhere in Israel we have nine correspondence in the Palestinian territories and Israel with his answer.

I just wonder professor.

Are you assess? How old is Heroes approach? The last 3-weeks looking at head that the the relationship between numerous Arab countries in Israel we're looking to be softening in terms of hospital until this War Began will be affected to a certain extent by what the public's in.

There was Arab countries snake and L20 along with a beer and some other news could greatly influence the political impact of Alzheimer's is very significant during this time and in the new just want to say that Israel Israel backed off from the decision to shut down Al Jazeera in Israel it was already approved and just today they said that they backing off because

Role-playing regarding Aspergers and mitigating with some ass and things like that so it's not that it just stopped for different reason Israel back because of security and I've one more question for me smile.

It's about the relationship between some of the biggest TV networks and the region and the States which they are based in and sometimes are funded by such as Al Arabia Saudi Arabia Sky News Arabia in UAE and of course Al Jazeera to what degree can the news organisations operate independently of the the States which phone them seeing you know and evolution of that right like when you think about that they have established the presence in the region given that they repeated the 1990s but then 2003 without being created on the day of them and then more recently started broadcasting several years ago.

You know at the end of the day.

Breastfeeding Israeli military sports person that have a higher Drive example motor pairing on Sky News viewing sounds refer to choose to view Sky News had a beer when I was seeing them report from inside because I'm speaking to you both sides of a smile.

Thank you very much.

Just in the last few seconds.

We have bell true.

We started with you.

What's the story you're planning on filing right now.

I'm actually looking at the West Bank sattelizer, Corsa on Gaza but since I'm here and accessing the west bank.

I've been looking at this mass movement of people in area C in the occupied West bank, so as many as 2000 people have been moved and I think that's going to be the Key Store in the coming days as well.

This is happening side by side with Gazza well.

Thank you very much indeed.

To all of you that spell true from the Independent Shana Oppenheimer from BBC monitoring Philip see from the University of Southern California is made from the National in the United Arab Emirates and shirts from fake reporter.

Thank you very much to all of you for listening will be back next week at the usual time.