Read this: Reporting the Israel Gaza war

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 in in Israel and Gaza will hear from John left on the ground will look at the Battle for influence online and some of the misinformation that's been circulating and we also talking to the BBC's Direct editorial policy about why BBC journalist won't use the word terrorist to describe the perpetrators of the atrocities, but let's start with what it's like to be covering this story bell true is national correspondent for the Independent she's currently in Tel Aviv also joined by Sherry's Mansour Middle East and North Africa programme coordinator for the committee to protect journalists welcome to you both play first the clip from another journalist on the ground we asked Sikander kirmani foreign correspondent at Channel 4 news for his take and he's just sent off this voice memo from the road.

Been in Southern Israel speaking to survivors of the massacres here speaking to relatives of the victim access to the site of the worst massacres in control by Israeli military.

We had pre-match most of the other international journalist who here were taken by the army SE21 site yesterday where we can't get to god.

I've had a lot of people asking me on social media.

Why I've only been reporting from the Israeli side well.

It's simply because no one is allowed by is well to get into Gaza right now the biggest challenge.

I would say about reporting on these complexes is just how emotive it is you know every word you say is being scrutinised so closely and is likely to be contested by one side that definitely adds to the pressure that was Armani from Channel 4 News talking just an hour or so ago.

We got bail true live at from.

Found a bell.

Thank you so much.

I'm sure you're incredibly busy so we really grateful to have you on the media show I wonder what you think of what Sikander sad and what the situation is like for you.

I think one of the key points that you made it.

This is an incredibly emotive complex making it very hard is the truth as a journalist trying to trade that line of the grey areas which are in the dark right now is very very hard because whatever you write someone disagrees with you and you can face quite a lot of criticism the way that things have been friends out there and the same time you need to pursue the story and the truth and it's very very very very difficult with also happening so rapidly on the ground elements happening Every Minute seconds and so you're kind of firefighting all these situations whilst trying to express what you believe to be you know.

The most accurate thing that you can express the people and how are you able to report and what kind of access are you getting to go out with the Israeli military and you're out on your own.

How does it work going to come on? You know you don't have access to a free sample and that's you know causing a restriction you coming in a car.

That's only going to get worse the next few days because my electricity essentially composed of total seats on the Gaza strip electricity internet down.

So I don't let you know.

I'm going to get information out of girls in terms of operating on this side.

You can either you know in some Village for example by Israeli military, but also operating on her own.

I was just driving around to rockbrook sample needs to border with Gaza under very heavy bombardment yesterday.

So you trying to be around as much as you can but you know the key problem.

We have right now.

Is that we can't access Gaza and my concern is as the internet is strangled because of electricity being strangled we won't get those voices out of cars.

And she's Mansour from the committee to protect journalists, I could bring you in bells talking about the difficulties the challenges of getting into god.

We also heard that from secunder kermani earlier.

There are people report from there at what are you hearing know about the situation for them has been hearing more about casualty killed by Israeli airstrike a couple of days ago and also by the bullets on Saturday account.

We keep updating our website at least you went missing and if you were injured and this could just week for the conflict, but it's not different cupboard the world before this is the full military confrontation.

Recorded since 2012 and in each of those times local freelance and are the ones who pay the stuff I was getting it.

Sorry.

I was just going to say because I'm aware obviously the BBC has its own journalist that somebody who lives in girls are the majority of reporting from Gaza are they based their is that the only way really you can do that these days access censorship from Hamas and also there is the rest not too long ago 2 years ago and up to 18 local Media outlets and this has happened every time there was a this is why even international bigger rely on local.

Fixes to tell me what's happening inside.

I love you say you're saying no 6 jealous that you understand in girls have died.

What are you calling for in terms of protecting unless there when we're going for all parties in Parties to give civilian protection entitled to National law and to take steps to safeguard civilian overall including we have called sample for the army in the past to make the Rules of Engagement when the target a combat situation.

We have been in the reason may recently killed by idf last year and years ago.

There was a protest to kill.

So we call on the army to make sure they're taking steps to safeguard civilian Angeles diet during operation and if I could just bring you back in and I think you like managing is have you know in in previous? X improvement of the conflict and previous times you have reported from Gaza Hamas facilitate Media access for example covered covered between military and Gaza and I've been inside Gaza almost all of them during the conflict in order to get into Gaza you have to first of all get through our switches control by as we can't get into guys right now because we have to take permission from as well that border Believers close, but it is definitely close by believe it might not exist heavy bombing then on the other side you have to.

Station from Hammersmith to be able to operate so you need to get to permissions effectively in order to be able to operate within cars as a correspondent and in terms of experience report from the from Israel conflict is always horrific, but presumably this one is particularly horrific and terms of your experiences reporting it.

I mean in the sense.

That's in previous investigations was complex.

You know there's been rockets fired from Gaza but the real I guess Theatre of War has been itself and because of the levels of strikes in this instance because of this unprecedented extraordinary breach of those borders by Hamas militants into it really turns.

We've been bloody scenes and people have been killed or taken hostage in 2021.

We did see a secondary complex to the complex.

So there was a fight between Palestinian citizens of Israel with Israeli authorities and we saw different mixed towns with Israel and occupied betting classes there as well, but at the moment.

I'd say probably in terms of the level of violence with in Israeli towns.

This is probably the ok.

Please do stay with us.

I would like to talk now.

They're about how information about the conflict is being shared online and the battle between supporters of the two sides to get their message across something i r s k money from Channel 4 news about and this is what he said.

There's a war of narratives between these two sides of massive understatement both side hate any kind of equivalent moral equivalence being drawn between between the two of them Israel says that's because a mass deliberately target civilians, and it says it doesn't.

Equating the two sides.

It's only a beacon Israeli the so so much more powerful than them militarily and economically and in the aftermath of any traumatic event it is always hard for what true what's rumour what propaganda sometimes interviewees make a sessions not based on what they know heard that is not something unique to this complete but it's amplified here because of the level of emotion around this particular conflict Channel 4 News who is on the move in Southern Israel at the moment.

I'd like to bring in Cheyenne sodade from BBC verify.

You've been looking at the information war on social media.

What what have you been finding its worst examples of information warfare that scene and it's not even like I said warfare.

It's unnecessary lucky having from the Israeli government.

Talking about people online or want these days most people get their news online in the days of people saying in front of the television and watching 9:00 at 10 news all over that wants the videos particularly when you haven't got this message and there's responsibility on online platforms to make sure that people what people are saying is actually relevant to red Panda getting information that is accurate and that's not the case.

This is not the first time.

I've been covering a conflict in terms of what's going on online in the 2021 conflict between Israel and Hamas the Syrian war from whatever we go to from Twitter text to tiktok to Instagram to Facebook there's a chance information.

That is completely unrelated to complain from past conflicts.

I'd warn you.

The 2021 conflict between Israel and Hamas the war in Syria or is actually taken from other countries is a video of football fans celebrating fireworks, I was everywhere and millions and in some cases unbelievable footage of actually video games like military simulation video games because people are looking at this stuff on them over and I just calling for information.

They're not paying that much attention to the just see something that might just that and it just goes on and is there any pattern to it and terms of misinformation I mean does it tend to support the objectives of a particular side for example.

It's been coming from both sides, and it doesn't come from people who runs it just comes from people were looking for engagement influence followers.

In some cases on platforms like YouTube and Twitter actually remember you're not did the social media algorithms designed to make videos and content of this type of you verify.

How do you verify whether you think something is fake or not? I see you know you put something up.

I think the last 24-hours about a video that purports to show Israel dropping white phosphorus bombs in Gaza and you said that fake me.

How do you come to those conclusions what I mean the way I do it is that festival open the video trying to sort it and then I try to find another example if I think I've seen this video before but if I go online and try to start look for other examples of this video whether that be possible social media platforms or someone else.

I'm out this one was actually quite easy is actually a a viral video a few months ago from you crying so that that one that wasn't the same on both sides not just

I haven't seen much of a difference.

Hello, is is the volume of misinformation linked in any way to a failure by the Tech platforms to police it in I see the EU as single that Elon Musk and is criticised, how is platform ex is dealing with the absolutely and I wouldn't even say it's necessarily a failure.

It's wilful choice.

I'm on platforms like Twitter x when you land rover Twitter meet up point to pull back on.

How was the following this information so the absolute tidal wave of missing information that were seeing right now is a Latin Park to do with policies that social media companies like Twitter or adopting now that are muscly sure then.

We've previously seeing Cheyenne mentioned the monetisation policy.

I mean in particular and what he's been documents on his door is a lot of people reposting recycled videos because now they're monetize account so if they have a viral video that is completely fake or is from you know several years ago and they'll make money on it.

Don't make money off of it and Twitter want to go down and misinformation people sharing false claims as one thing but how do you ban assess how the Israeli government and Hamas are using social media to get the message out and both sides of putting up videos on their social media channels, who are they trying to influence many people have already made up their minds in this conflict question the social media patterns of Hamas and Israel are highly influence on what platform is able able to access so when you look at Israel they have a one history of posting on Twitter and extremely.

Play Notorious and aggressive statements essentially this was back for years and off of nearly every may apply for severe primarily publishing things on telegram messaging service and a lot of the videos that you're trying to see circulated from Hamas actually come from his telegram feeds and you know I'm not exactly sure they're targeting with their messaging by it's much harder or it takes more effort to access the than it does to see the massively shared Media coming from Israel social media channels, OK thanks.

Very interesting people listen to the media show on BBC Radio 4 but I want to look at another aspect of the reporting of this conflict so far around the language journal issues because you'll have seen that the BBC and other broadcasters have been criticise.

Using the word terrorist Jay Solomon the global Security editor at new site semaphores with our spell true is still here too but first I want to talk to the BBC's head of editorial policy David because the BBC has been singled out by the prime minister Rishi Sunak and are the cabinet ministers welcome David to the media.

Can you explain the BBC's approach to this I mean why not use the word terrorist will use this is a very long standing policy of the BBC which is so have you stood the test of time it closes been applied to complex around the world and indeed in our country.

We didn't describe the I wouldn't have a policy of describing the IRS Terrace throughout the Troubles in Northern Ireland to this day.

We don't call if I can spend two groups for example the mothers in that context and the end so we don't stop people using the term or now on her output safe if people want to use that term in in their interviews.

Waste then we are they can do so but we don't use it ourselves to be interviewed in a government ministers representatives of of the government might have to be your own resistance they can use that word when we when we talk to them, but we don't use enjoyed ourselves the simple reason is because unfortunately in in the very emotive circumstances that were described earlier by Sekonda and and others have the always obtained when these conflicts occur at people describe the use of that language to bias on the part of the BBC if they hurt on one side of the other so if we if we use the language on one side and got the other side the use of language of the side outside Terrace just got them as terrorists.

They stay as soon as we are biased in the direction of the person of the side of the who's language for using an over time in order to to report things in posh.

Order to obtain the trust of all other audiences.

We have we have we haven't used the term clearly there are people many of them Cabinet ministers in the prime minister amongst them who disagree who thinks that think they're out of date and he's looking out has been reported the culture secretary Lucy Frazer has spoken to the director-general Tim Davie calling on him to change the editorial guidelines.

He said this morning the BBC News to explain dance which were grateful that you're here to do but clearly you know does the BBC not appreciate just how offensive some people are finding it that the Hammersmith acres are being described in the work of terrorist.

We are describing them as what they are what you just use the word Massacre we've got the messages with murders recorded the out for what things are and that doesn't in anyway devalue.

What is a what is going on using a word to based on terror around it.

Don't necessarily help people to understand what's going on, but you know we have had this debate over a very long time I take.

Understand the emotion around this and the feelings and particularly in the Jewish by I can't totally understand because I'm not jewish myself, but I try to understand the emotions around this and then we had long discussions in the community going back many years about the use of this word.

I'll because they've had to take that in private in the past in public now that we should that we should do so but we think our approach and as you said earlier.

It's the approach of all international broadcasters and many other parts of the media our approach helps to keep the trust of all our audiences helps us to steer a path between two very completing narratives in a very emotional and difficult situation and that's that's why we retain it.

I wonder what the BBC thinks would happen for example if a BCG did use that term what would be the impact of it? Do you think I don't mean on there? I don't mean on the weather BBC will come down on and I could have brakes what I mean is.

What would be the impact of using it w w w

I think that I think that the side of the conflict been described in that way as terrorists then immediately assume that the BBC is biased against them and favours the other side of the conflict and as we've already heard.

There's a massive issue on on social media already around the place.

I think it's about about making sure that all audiences trust the information that were given that don't think that the BBC is coming from one side of the conflict supposed to the other side of the complete and that we are the spiracles through this difficult circumstances in which our journalism can continue factual accurate impartial and truthful David Jordan thank you very much had a BBC editorial policy Bell at true.

You're still here from the Independent can I put you on the spot? What is your take on this to are you using the word terrorist?

You are you are very much, but I would say approach language in this instance is to call a spade a spade so that would be hummus which is a terrorist organisation by the US or designated terrorist organisation by the UK and that is the way that I would classify because that is factually correct the BBC does as well as do other broadcasters yet, so I attempt to avoid the use of the word terrorist as I do believe that isn't can be subjective and emotional and so I would rather you spell it out.

It says it might sound a bit earlier in the copy, but I think you know that is correct.

It is a designated terrorist organisation by the UK by the us by multiple countries and that is what I put coffee but also as as he was saying that someone talks to me and using the word terrace that goes in the in a copy as a direct quote from them, but I think that's probably in my opinion.

Best way to approach a is really describe what that group is J Solomon is global Security and he's here Jay thanks for coming on the media.

So just on that point using the word terrorist.

I may do you think the BBC and other broadcasters out of step with public opinion last a usually described as either an organisation or organisation but I also make sure that I reference in the US and European because I must have activities in question whether that effective but it has other functions have just took a terrorist organisation.

The tracks from accuracy of the reporting of the language so I tried a mix it I will call you know explain as an organisation, but I must clear to say ass like Saturday was a terrorist attack.

I will use that language.

Is this week for obvious reasons because the horror but do you think it had dropped off the news agenda, definitely did I think part of it? Was you know four decades of intense diplomacy involving the United States Secretary of State States and their preferably flying in and out of Israel Egypt to Jordan it was a very high Stakes and sort of the game that basically has been off the table for almost a decade there is not being high level 2 pharmacy Middle East peace talks.

I think that brought it to the background.

Shifting certainly during the a word about the Abraham Accords in a focus on Israel normalising relations with Arab States and of course and last year it's been a real focus on the I think the Palestinian went to the back at that might have been a journalistic blindspot Israeli intelligence blind by the focus of definitely definitely gone away from the Gaza strip about these days.

Are you back Jay and Belle you say you're basically it's not the person anyway, you work for mainstream outlets.

I wondered how much influence you think your reporting actually have on the perception of this conflict bell.

I wondered you first.

I think still people.

I think there is a lot of influence coming from online and I think also.

Is designed people end up in Echo Chambers with their own viewpoints and I think also at the same time now.

There's a lot of pressure been put on it's about what the news coverage is so you get criticism from both sides to meet people are reading it and they are responding to it still I guess globally news is most consumed by watching television even though these numbers are decreasing so I still think mainstream networks are very influential but of course people.

Are you know going straight to the sauce? They were videos posted by civilians inside Gaza they are on Facebook groups about what may have happened in villages in Southern Israel and they exchanging information that way but I think perhaps is that there is becoming very very strict division people are becoming far more polarised than think social media is playing into that J Solomon to say last word on that.

So much this information out there that mainstream science people do you figure out? What is exactly but I think in the news gay Marcel you know what do you have that others don't have it's always going to be the stock-in-trade of the journalist and I think that continues in terms of the scrutiny and do you feel it must have an impact at briefly even before this attack reporting an issue with the Iranians it's such a polarising as you would particularly in Washington there is virtually no middle ground being able to access people from different positions is really difficult because they think they tried to cast new sites in the Borders from a different cam and it's the last interview different sides of they think you're not in their hair but hats off to all of you.

Thank you so much for spending the time to come on the media show to all of you J Solomon from semaphore bel trew the Independent

Mansour from the committee to protect journalists Cheyenne from BBC verify Bengal get from embassy news and David Jordan here in the studio from the BBC thank you so much for listening to the media show goodbye.