Read this: 20/09/2023 Radio 4 Feedback

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 Channel 4 Alex Moyer said the allegations made against Russell Brand which he denies are horrendous disgusting and saddening at the industry needs to confront bad behaviour among those who respond to the Russell Brand allegations and the questions they raise about the media is the culture secretary Lucy Frazer Louisa Compton is head of news and current affairs at Channel 4 so welcome to the media show the story was jointly produced by The Sunday Times the times working alongside dispatches on Channel 4 I wonder at what point you realise you had a free you'll be able to broadcast.

It's a good question we began working on it about 4 years ago and made quite slow progress at beginning quickly got wind.

And agreed to collaborate with them at that stage.

We had lots of Leeds and lots of people who were too lots of women and the people in the industry who were too nervous to Brothers reasons and explodes in the film that is very slow progress initially and then things really came together want to be set up her own internal Channel 4 which is now been wanting to do for a while and that investigation unit it's about 18 months ago in collaboration with the sun Sunday Times and the times over to make I think probably realistically it was about 8 months ago that we thought right with the place now.

We may well.

We have enough women and testimony to be able to broadcast but then an awful lot can happen between over the last 8 months.

I normally Louisa news organisations are very competitive.

So how does it work when to decide to work on a story I think it works.

But it made sense for us to join her because we both knew the other was looking into the story and it's better to work together than separately but in many ways of a three organisations because we also Hardcastle the production company made the program contributed to the journalism and obviously made the visual piece of TV that you saw so is the channel for investigation unit hard cash and the Sunday Times I think we all think collectively it was very positive process it really before all three of us working together really helps amplify the story and then we had more people working together as you know he said like this requires an awful.

Lot of resources so having each other's in out of different parts of the story is just met we had more story and we were then able to collaborate.

Sorry we were those clever Incredibly Close to be on when we would publishing when we're broadcasting that was a very long time.

I kind of constantly moving feet and all of you at the sun.

The times and Channel 4 would have been well aware that especially through Saturday the volume of speculation about your program was going up and up and up by that point was it done was it just a case of waiting for the broadcast time to come around and press play we were in the Edit suite in the Edit suite on a Saturday I think it's about midday on Saturday so definitely wasn't quite done as you may know the time on Friday night at about 10:30.

Also Russell Brand released his video Roberta the allegation that that stage been made so we will need it.

Obviously ending in his his his response and by Saturday morning we were very clear that we're going to go with initially agreed that we were both published the times on the in the paper online and social media at 6 p.m.

But we decided to move that forward to 16 but you're going to be staying with us through this edition of the media show it's worth reiterating again the Russell Brand denies the allegations.

Been made and taking place today is a big moment for the UK TV industry as Gathering in Cambridge for the Royal television Society annual conference and never to be Russell Brand is going to be one of the main topics of conversation and the culture secretary Lucy Frazer is addressing the conference this afternoon a little earlier.

She gave me her reaction to the Russell Brand allegations.

Please read these are very serious allegations that have been made and I would encourage anyone who feels they might have been a victim of any sexual assault or any thing else to come forward and make that known to the police in relation to the industry and really pleased that investigations are taking place with those companies that are concerned.

I think it's really important that people who go to work whatever industry they working that they feel safe at work and so I would be encouraging.

To look within their organisations and ask themselves whether there anything needs to change you mentioned the number of investigations have begun by the BBC by Channel by banijay, UK have you spoken to any of those organisations about this so I have spoken to Channel 4 and I've spoken to the BBC and well.

I asked about the investigations that were taking place and they gave me Florence's in relation to those and also raise the issue in relation to the industry as a whole and you say that you're satisfied.

I'm glad that these investigations are happening now, but some of these allegations have been circulating within the industry for some time.

Is it a frustration of yours that perhaps some of these issues and investigated a lot earlier investigations are taking place.

I think it's important for them to conclude those of the sort of questions that they will be asking themselves.

Can I think that's a question for you to put it out and but I will obviously look very closely at the investigations when they are conducted in due course.

I'm sure you're aware that Russell Brand has cancer some theatre shows he had planned that YouTubers also demonetize his YouTube channel given the all of that is in response to media coverage carrying allegations which he denies.

Are you comfortable with how this media coverage has led to those consequences for him independent decisions in relation to actions by concert in them that is appropriate the just another number of elements to their so it's really important as I said the people come forward and the justice system works for them.

I'm the culture secretary and within my brief Falls the media and within the media.

Obviously we have a very frightening Free Press

Which investigative journalism is part of that and that is an important part of our Media process so as long as journalism's your act within the law judicial, what should and should not be reported.

We have a very clear process in relation to media freedoms as well and I think those two systems Sitwell in our country side by side so you point and Media Freedom and you point out traditional process, but are you comfortable with the fact that all of Russell Brand's income from YouTube has been turned off based on these occasions which has come out and said a not true.

This is two points in relation to that obviously you know the decisions for YouTube After YouTube to make and there is also principal it then we have a very important one in the justice system which is your innocent until proven guilty.

But you're comfortable then with YouTube which is owned by Google simply taking a position in and of itself taking his own judgement and you as the culture secretary in the government doesn't feel any requirement to get involved in those decisions even though YouTube one of the main media platforms that people use in this country as I mentioned individual companies and individual decisions about the content on their platforms my role as culture secretary is to ensure that people when they go to work.

They feel safe industry operates the safe and professional environment for those people within those companies those issues that I have raised with industry that I will continue to raise in my speech today and that I will continue to take forward as culture secretary continue to raise these issues and Tim Davie the director-general of the BBC

Internal BBC enquiry he hasn't rolled out an external enquiry.

He said the issues are not wholly historic my instinct is there are significant problems he says well head of news and current affairs Louisa Compton still with us, but that's also bringing Chris Curtis editor-in-chief of broadcasts which is a TV and radio industry publication Chris what do you make these comments both by Tim and by the culture secretary about the need to look a fresh at the industry are very sensible because in the end whilst these are larger historical allegations most important thing at the sector can do now is ensure that any better behave that's taking place now is stamped out that's easier said than done the truth the matter is that Talent has been on powerful in our industry for many many decades and that the job that the broadcast as an all the production companies have is to take the

Zero tolerance approach and the commitment to safe and professional working environment that they make at the top of the organisation and ensure that those values filter down to the often freelance production staff on the ground making television shows Louise as you and your team went about this story.

How did that deep understanding of the reasons these allegations were not considered in more detail by the industry? I think it's watching the film is interested in some of the comments that he broadcast I don't know some of the stories you hear you think is from the 1970s.

It's very hard to get your hands wet head around but that was happening you know 20 years ago this century and I think I think Talent had been historically out of control and too much a panda too much.

I do think the industry has moved in Houston I didn't send and we've ordered.

Still a lot more to do but I feel like myself from with my own organisation Channel 4 but also the BBC and independent production companies is it we are having that conversation.

We must do better we know it must be better will the BBC has removed some content involving Russell Brand though not all Channel 4 as remove all programs with Russell Brand in them on the media show let's look at some of the broader issues about stories of this nature are told and also what genus do with allegations that their sources share with them Louisa still with us investor journalist mark williams-thomas is joining us as well as is Alexandra topping and investigative journalist at the Guardian but Louisa let me begin with you because some listeners will be thinking where does the police fit into this as you're going through your work when you're considering broadcasting allegations of crimes.

Yeah.

I mean obviously decisions and never taken lightly.

It's Joe this jobs.

It's our job to expose.

From doing in Poole behaviour serious allegations that we celebrated as best as we possibly could be more than just about one man.

They're actually about the TV industry incredibly important things about that interest rates a whole they deserve to be aired and obviously we can still have the public interest case so we get an awful.

Lot of time went up and also your privacy and in the case of Russell Brand how much that is M65 his relationships that what that meant is entitlements privacy and it is of the women and why they weren't going to the police and they chose to speak to jealous instead.

We know it's not a surprise conviction rate rape.

We know the poor experiences many women receive when they go to court cases do go to troll we know the refused delays.

We seen so many historic cases take decades before they feel comfortable speaking to the police and of course ultimately is absolutely mint to decide whether or not they want to go to face.

It's not our job is during this time that happened Mark williams-thomas, let's bring you.

Journalist now, you're a former police officer and your best known for exposing Jimmy Savile as part of an iTV investigation in 2012 give us your understanding of the intersection between work of journalists and the work of police.

It's very fine line because ultimately what we want to cause is Justice just disappeared in many different forms sometimes just this by The Very nature of hearing an individual give their account listening to it and being in a position to do something about it the media plays a really important role being able to do that particularly through invest the difference between my expertise.

I have Savile and obviously they recent one of these for brand was that we are in a position where the police had had complaints on numerous occasions to them and they done nothing about it.

So what we were in a position is by the time.

We then got to position put our program out after years research.

We knew that the police actually have failed on Malta

That came true afterwards in relation to Brands obviously that's very different circumstances.

Of course we dealing with adults compared to children so we got any issues of consent here.

What's really now is to try and keep those women as much confidence as possible to go to the police.

So that they can make those reports and of course encourage as many other people I've I've heard someone speak to me.

Who's had a concern in relation to hear when I spoke to somebody else who's got some information around him so there are lots of people out there the question is a Corsa's where does it go now from there, so we need to encourage them to work very closely with production companies and broadcasters to ensure that the evidence is collected and I'll just read it once more that Russell Brand denies.

The allegations being made against him on a topping from the Guardian you will always BBC broke the story of sexual misconduct claims about the DJ Tim Westwood how do you see this?

Very fine line to use the phrase Mark used between the work of journalists and the work of police on some allegations between the needs to be some some distance between genus and place and to enable us both to get on with doing a job.

I think pointed very pertinent.

You know our job is to tell stories that are in the public interest and to expose stories that people quite often don't want to be told the police have got their job and we don't want to interfere with that and do you think well? This is an obvious question to ask but there is obviously a different standard of proof required for the work the police are doing in the work that journalists are doing their different roles and yes you require different standards of Proof but I think it's really important to recognise why lots of women don't want to engage with the criminal justice system you know of the report.

Later police we know that only 1.6 of those are actually charged so I think it's it's not you can understand why many women white want to go to a journalist because they feel like they can trust them all in Westwood denies, the allegations that have been made against him and another issue that I'd like to ask all three of you about is this your anonymity because victims of sexual crimes have a legal right to anonymity for life and that of course has consequences for how journalists go about their work and what's your program Louisa will know that the testimony of some of the women who spoke to you were passed on by actors sharing their their words about your decision to do that.

Did you have any doubts about it? No reasons the women didn't want to appear on screen for the name to be revealed and as you say it all.

Offensive entitled to an MOT by door and some women in other cases have chosen to waive their right to anonymity and appearing in invision in this case when we spoke to a number of different routes who went down depending on what women themselves look up with it was a constant collaboration and constant it was an Evolution it wasn't a decision made on Monday and that was here talking to Mary appeared in many months to get to where we did it was all depends on what they were.

They are so one woman appeared in silhouette of those with betrayed by actors who spoke the exact words and actually an interesting point is that those actors actually requested their own anonymity.

I don't want to be shown in vision which I think actually helped with a pair of the film in the end and just people who don't know how it works.

I think it's important to say that anonymity doesn't mean obviously we deprotonated and the journalist didn't know who they were we not really a public.

Of course we were able to co-operate as best as we could the details that they went into the text messages received verified medical records.

We saw WhatsApp group that they talked about existed and another so no one of the things.

I think we did really well and that film is it we're able to show at work as well as much as we could we really spelt out how we have managed to verify what we have and how we did that Mark and Alexandra did the the technique of sharing the testimony of the women who spoke to dispatches via actors work for you Alexandra incredibly powerful and full credit to the journalist who have worked on this story.

I mean I know how difficult it is to get the stories over the line and I think it was actually fantastic.

This is to show the working out you need to show this is what we do.

This is the work that went into it.

This is the hours that we spent this is not something that you can do in the alternative Media you know you have to have a a large operation.

I also think it's really important to note that when people say.

Oh well if there are Anonymous that there's no right to reply.

That's not true in a we know that the legal processes are very thorough and the has been to reply.

What about your mum.

There are programmes.

Expose would have great would have received the amount of coverage and certainly even got her hair was incredibly difficult to get to ask if everyone has been anonymous.

I can't tell you how difficult it was to get those people to reveal their identity so we can actually show them in in picture, so actually very interesting that they did do that and that I got huge respect for the team that didn't my fully supported they did I thought it's quite interesting why when you use an actor you could actually make out some of the identity of a particularly one of those and I just wonder whether that actually a potentially increases the credibility or allows means that people that think.

Know what that Associates to a real person rather than using anonymity test me so I think there's any out there, but hats off to them brilliant piece of investigative journalism and portrayal of television a very quick response from Louise and speak less you know the potentially more comfortable for that reason.

Obviously Russell Brand is a figure you very much I live in working in the entertainment industry, and I think that led to some other concerns.

I think I can come in the the journalist involved in this investigation and also and there's have a responsibility towards their sources and was the people that come to them and we know that in this Arena they can face a huge amount of criticism very much indeed for joining us as well, and I'll say once again that Russell Brand denies the allegations that have been made.

Against him earlier we heard part of an interview I conducted with the culture secretary Lucy Frazer a few hours ago.

Let's hear more of that discussion because as you may well be aware Russell Brand's main platform at the moment is YouTube and YouTube is not subject to UK regulation.

I want to know where the culture secretary has any concerns about that is wider regulation on internet TV and so at the moment broadcasters have to abide by the broadcasting code and are regulated by Ofcom one of the things.

I think we need to look at is should that regulation extend to internet TV and electronic programming guides for people who are essentially channels on on television a separate question which is essentially social media and you will know the government has been to significant work with just come to the end of the online safety bill which does regulate.

Content that is a put out on social media that is really important for a for the safety of consumers find me can I ask you about another issue, which I understand you're going to deal with reference in your speech which is the the different sources of news that people use in our country.

We know in particular younger people getting you some YouTube from tiktok and elsewhere.

What's your view of that diversification? Is it good for our Society overall? It's actually my favourite Media priority.

I think it's really important and is quite exciting so people have the opportunity to get their voice heard and to hear different opinions we do need to obviously make sure that there is a regulation that I've talked about your online safety Bill and what we doing there to ensure that you know content is kept within certain parameters, and we've also talked about you know the red.

What we doing in government and the thing because of patients that I'm bringing forward on internet and also got the Media bill which looks at public service broadcasters and how they coping and the new digital world that Lucy Frazer discussing the diversification of new sources and there's also been a diversification of business models within UK media and that also fits into the Russell Brand story let's bringing Peter guess acting business editor of wired has written the long peace looking at Russell Brand's business model and why Peter it may be resilient despite the controversies of the last few days is 1 of a number of people have moved from mainstream career into the social media aggregator arrange a fringe views that often conspiracy theories far-right views covid denialism, Somerset menu about side of talking points and that's a really.

Community is organised around and robust conspiracy theories.

It's quite cold in its Desire for content and it really engage with content it repost sit these videos it comments in the middle of government do we live in those eyeballs an engagement translation to revenue so you can make good money with this content and effectively means that someone like Russell Brand can become very successful within what's essentially parallel news environment outside the bank is regulation increasing the untethered from objective reality and it gives people a bit of a ride out even even tried on Friday on things that will send the couriers although presumably if your Channel is demonetized on YouTube that is a significant blow to the kind of business model that you describe so patient probably has an impact but I wouldn't say it necessary a Facebook so I can show the revenue streams.

You know you see the diversification in this business.

So people move on to other platforms Russell Brand is on rumble which is an alternative to YouTube

Necessary by the same rules as he does buying Gold by Sting YouTube and broadcast this raises big issues, doesn't it about which sections of the British media are regulated and which sections are yes mean.

There's the traditional brought service broadcasters would say that the playing field is very very uneven at the moment the Media bill which most Industries hoping will become Laura is going to address the sort of Esther subscription video-on-demand services Amazon Netflix like those are going to be regulated affecting me by Ofcom going to social media you into a difference on a world and obviously not necessarily all professionally produced content and that becomes more tricky and that's potentially the role of the online safety bill.

Thank you very much indeed.

Curtis from broadcast from Channel 4 let me bring you back in one last time and read you a section of what Piers Morgan is written today saying whatever you think of him.

That's a reference to Rob he's entitled the due process every bit as much as it's accuser deserve to be taken seriously social medias been a blaze with people rushing to prematurely convict him including Google own YouTube which is banned all advertising from is popular channel.

Have you been anyway? I'm comfortable about the fall out that your journalism has provoked.

I haven't seen that you just said as I said earlier these decisions and never taken lightly it's so much time with all goes into it.

I think what we take to achieve would be a national conversation and speaking truth to power and leading to meaningful change and I think I think you've definitely done that and is he seen the way that the BBC

Talking about they are taking it incredibly seriously Peter Guest have you been comfortable with the media reaction and the consequence of it, but do you have a responsibility here, but I think the point the online safety bill in this case YouTubers demonetize brands, but allegations is a very serious allegations about his off platform behaviour, but one could argue that they should have done so far is on platform behaviour to and that's that's not a legal judgement, but it's also not clear that some of the Wild Things She Said on YouTube by safety bill with those this power back to the back from cells and yours will be the last comment today.

Thank you very much indeed to you for joining us Peter guests from widely heard from Chris Curtis from last we had the journalist Mark williams-thomas and Alexandra topping from the Guardian as well as Channel 4 head of news and current affairs Louisa Compton this episode all of our episodes are available on BBC

but for now bye bye.