Read this: Is AI now coming for your private data?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in the next half an hour by the way we watch football on TV is about to change why the amount of new TV on offer of any sort for the big streamers is starting to dip and how your private data and content is the latest Frontline for W A I can and can't access and we're going to start there and be precise with zoom because many of you will have a look for video conferencing of one form or another and it's found itself right in the middle of this issue of what can and can't be done with private data and private content Brian merchant.

He's technology at the Los Angeles Times Brian tell us what zoom try to do so earlier this year.

Search that allowed basically anything that transferred over zoom call any data that was that was that was transmitted over resume call could be collected and used by the company to train a I made that change in March I believe it was no one really noticed it because this is as things are buried under piles of legalese and you know user agreements and terms that must have just clicked on through when was discovered however it cause quite a bit of an opera because it was so expensive that it meant that zoom could do just about anything but with this day that at the moment when a lot of us are feeling a lot of very Justified anxiety over that data particularly platform.

And when you talk about data is what you really mean the words that were using all the emotions that were expressing or the exchanges were involved in yeah, I mean can capture it all I can get in capture the transcript of the data of the words that were saying there's no reason to think that it couldn't capture sort of the record itself or the dealer of you.

It's easy these days are relatively easy to capture data about you know video data and an images of zoom put a statement let me read it saying following feedback soon as updated our terms of service to make it clear that zoom does not use any of your audio video chat screen sharing attachment, what other Communications

Customer content such as Paul results whiteboard and reactions to train zooms or third-party artificial intelligence models and on that response that's bring someone in this Brian Eugene Kim is cheap tech correspondent at inside a business.

You know you got a story about Amazon you want to tell us about before we get into that just help.

I'll listen and understand what I really like zoom might want to do with all of the data that Brian's just been describing why has it got value mean for any service these companies need to train themselves to learn about new things about user behaviour and just improve their service so just a lot of talk about what kind of these companies should be allowed to collect and whether they should be any regulations or even compensation.

The original creators of these content one example of that would be trying to gain access to all the free news articles online news publications are trying to block open the iPhone crawling that deliver for free without permission and three types of data were talking about here data.

That's publicly available on the where would you be inscribed private data such as conversations on a zoom call that Brian's been describing but your scoop concerning Amazon Eugene maybe talk about a third category.

Does it involve staff putting internal information into a chat gbt to help with its work, but then that private information was fed into the broader systems of the story rain so they were talking about whether they can you.

CBT at work for work purposes for example would be putting in a line of code or marketing entity and asking for a better version of it, so it when they do that sometimes input you know confidential corporate information in Chester Beatty and ask for an answer and when they do that to BT is ingesting am using it to get smarter train themselves and they made in April in league information to other users in the public domain which needs to say would not be one Amazon or any other organisation would I get the question now Brian is noted that last week chat GPT is got a new enterprise product and businesses tell us about that and do you think that's a convincing way?

Wading organisations that they can use AI in this way without compromising their data that's certainly the whole exactly what you just talking has been a concern of many organizations businesses and public groups in the car and congressional staffers were using charge ubt it look like when they had their bosses had their put a policy down.

It's ok.

You can chat upt detritus put out new policy because it's just that will chat ubt does that it's free tiers it just ingested and I was using that to learn a good show up somewhere else so the pitch with Enterprise is that we're going to make sure than anything that you put in is confidential anything that you put in for your organization your business if you're a small business owner then that's all going to be safe and working now.

We're going to charge you pretty pretty pretty.

That's the pitch whether or not it ends up passing muster remains to be seen I think some security experts to worry that don't know exactly how it is and people are listening from organisations and think about how much do with this cost.

We think it's going to be in the region of $30 a month per per organisation to to get access to these days per user within organisation, so that could suddenly get a lot more expensive.

I would just like to ask though both of you.

I'm sure there people listening thinking ok.

We'll talk about the zoom example.

We've heard about the Amazons are example but in their day-to-day lives with the kind of technology.

You could reasonably expect lots of our listeners to be using how much private data is already being fed into a either perhaps we didn't realise because none of us tend to read the terms and conditions from start to finish Eugene is it should we expect actually that this is already happening.

Well, I mean we seem to all of this rate in previous cases with Google Search or social media email in the past about data privacy and and yet people continue to use them in Amazon Scarisbrick sample Alexa voice assistant is not a lot of that articles about Amazon in stations to unwanted users and yet that didn't stop the growth of these so it is still remains to be seen but it's possible the consumers.

Yeah, it's good.

What you doing is that is correct? It's it has become sort of difficult to sort of you know you want to use the services you want to be on Facebook Google search you want to use Gmail and so we sort of relent and we should have accept these fairly owners terms.

I do think we're specific cases like zoom zoom is something that we private were talking with somebody it's very sore personal and when it when we learn that time.

We're taking that day that and we can use that data to train or AI that raises red flags still I do think that we have an opportunity to say renegotiate a lot of these contracts but we have the sort of informal contract we have with a company's and say this is a bridge too far services without you know overall and specific probably should have said that she did all those terms of service to make it clear that things like conversations and not being fed into.

Calculations that's really helpful both of you.

Thank you very much indeed you Jean I'll let you go.

I appreciate you joining us.

That's using Kim is from inside a business just before I let you go Brian though.

I can't not ask you about your new book which is called blood in the machine and I understand it explores the relationship or the comparison between the Luddite rebellion of the 19th century and now which isn't a comparison.

I've seen done before years.

What's this about well the lights it turns out at work last workers in Uno in England and industrial England 200 years ago had a lot of the same concerns about automation and mechanisation and their jobs being threatened by technology that we have today so in the book.

I tell the story sort of a reappraising they've got a bad reputation over the years and I think it's unfounded and unfair because what they were fighting for was to get more of the share of the games without having their lives.

And that's what a lot of workers especially creative workers artists actors writers who are Staring Down the bowl of AI systems in general by today or going to protect their livelihoods from today to thank you very much.

Do this book is called blood in the machine.

I think that is the first time we started at the media talking about zoom the luddites and artificial intelligence within the first 10 minutes.

You never know it might happen again.

Thank you very much indeed to Brian and Eugene out here in the Studio with me now murder news from a analysis which is a data and Analytics firm for games media and sport as well as the TV critics got Brian Scott and I'm going to see you both know you're both here because we can talk about TV and how we be on the receiving receiving end of left of it certainly less new TV because in short of rising production costs the saturated market and also the ongoing Hollywood actors and writers.

Scotland start with you.

We've had some pretty high-profile cancellations.

Yeah, I mean Nautilus which is a big Disney plus series upcoming Disney plus series based on the free CT20 under the sea they announced even though it was in order a publicity material that it was coming soon that it's no longer going to be on for service.

It might have a new home somewhere else and that possibly down to I think a concern within the industry that the money that they spending in content is not going to come back with new subscribers anymore.

I think for of quite few years now.

We've been having upward trajectory with new subscribers, but I think down to a combination of factors primarily.

I think the cost of living crisis and also increasing a charges to be up to the service as described.

I think people are now starting to realise maybe it's not worth carrying on because I I hate saying this as a TV critic but TV is not essential we all pay the licence fee so of course if we're not having.

Subscription services probably still going to be able to catch something up an iPlayer or maybe one of its competitors essential, but most people like watching quite a lot of it which is why this is she gets a lot of it.

We talked about high profile cancellations like that's one way of gauging this but can we look across TV production more broadly and say we can see now the number of new series come through is beginning to dip yeah, absolutely and data and commissions and we definitely seeing a really big tip over the last few months in the number of new titles that are being released and commissioned and we also tracked content spend and we've seen a real shift there so for example between 2020 and 2023 there was a 73% rise in the amount streamers, so that 6stream is being Netflix Disney pass Apple TV Plus HBO Max and paramount plus that how much they were spending on TV shows movies and sport.

But if we look forward to 2027 it's going to grow by 17% So yes, there is still growth, but that content boom that we've seen over the last few years due to a combination of factors.

Yes the right to strike but also because a lot of these companies are moving from just pure subscriber growth to profitability then now having her answer to the shareholders as well.

Help me under the profitability equation that and it is not realistic to significantly boost subscriber numbers.

How can these businesses seek to get more money out of each existing subscriber markets where there is gross coming so for example North America is kind of plateaued out and that's been one of the biggest markets for streaming globally but if we look at something like the UK Wigan weather forecast to hit 4.6 billion worth of streaming revenue at the end of this year and that's up 15% year-on-year and wear a forecasting that will.

5.3 billion by 2027 now that revenue is growing because there is still a demographic.

Are you the older demographic necessarily? I haven't switched fully to the streaming side of it begun to find it there dipping their toes into things like iPlayer ITV excetra and that now the beginning to be willing to pay to access the streaming services and help because the likes of Netflix commissioning War documentaries more crime thrillers more dramas things that are appealing to these older demographics.

So there is still a little bit of growth there for them and that Scott are we saying that the only destination here is a range of streaming products.

It's just a question of what form they take all where the linear channels fit into the equation when is advertising fit into that singers that were a sort of pivotal moments in Soul broadcast TV live TV where is having the biggest decline since records began due to the ofcom's report with said that not just young of you.

What's the older viewers are ditching watching live TV in the evening however A Challenge for a lot of public service broadcasters is that's not being offset by their Road streaming services and they are all having to compete essentially with the whole internet and I think with advertising you are starting to have no Netflix on living in the big way Disney plus have said they're going to be to the what they I think she clearly doing is that also raising the prices or removing a tired Harris all together? So you're going to have to pay considerably more to now have an ad-free experience of October One case in point Netflix had a699 standard tier without advert that still remaining for existing subscribers, but now if you are new Netflix subscriber.

You're going to have to pay 1099 not have any adverts so I think adverts essentially love them.

I love them.

It's going to be much harder to avoid them from our data.

We found week.

So everyone can see my polling and nearly half of consumers in the UK

Baby willing to see advert if they can pay a little bit less, so they'll be willing to see some or quite a lot of advertising so actually that level of add tolerance is quite high so with the cost of living crisis if that does continue for the foreseeable future actually these cheaper add tears are going to become very attractive to a lot of consumers and if those do end up becoming quite big the amount of advertising that the lights on Netflix could make as a result of it will offset the loss of them paying a higher subscription fee and we were talking the studio just for you came on here about what people calling fast channels and fast being an acronym for free ad-supported TV in and we were saying that sounds quite like me the equation for example.

I got so much content they realise that great way to get people sort of engaged by it is by having sometimes up to 2030 different channels all the different themes and topics rather than being named after.

Channel maybe on a particular theme so maybe quiz shows romance shows and it kind of means.

I think I stop this real irritating facts of the spending your evening scroll if you end this menus try to find something to watch you can have somebody doing the Middleman for you.

So so pressing program and having a play I guess therefore many people there be wondering hang on.

I spent years going away from this and the TV channel was supposed to come to an end and be replaced by streaming so I think fast channels.

I kind of going to be maybe replacing it down with down for line and the cost of actually running them really quite affordable to these places and then fine when we consider all the different points that you're you're making Minaj we tried to assess which business models work for streamers and broadcasters and which ones are under pressure.

How can we assessed those models when some of the streamers are doing streaming simply to make money from their business, but others for other streaming like Amazon is part of a broader equation.

It's really hard to assess them all in.

Frustrate you really do have to look at look at them with buckets so for example.

You've got the Lights of Netflix who don't they're not studio they don't own their own content they have to go out with you the by content or creator vs.

The likes of Disney who actually is streaming doesn't work for them.

They can fall back to creating broadcasting deals with linear TV channels in the same way say HBO Max in the UK so HBO haven't released HBO Max in the UK because there's a really lucrative broadcast deal with Sky so you can that they're going to be very different monetisation policies going forward, but it will depend on what it is you own in terms of content so very different products from different businesses also very different types of television, but less television is the message from them and Scott and I won't be staying with a talk about football and toilet you go I wanted to ask about Edinburgh at the Edinburgh TV Festival last week.

Whenever you go to be big industry events is normally theme or two that comes out from them.

I wonder which one you picked up on I mean, I think I think that I'd say.

Protected is that a lot of forecast for finding it very difficult for many different reasons I mean it's the case that caused the stream is having their own challenges, but ITV and Channel 4 have both had a big advertising dip saying it's been the hardest and Times of advertising income since the credit crunch Channel 4 had essentially stopped a lot of programs be made over for summer but have said they're going to be starting some more and also be having a 2-year licence fee freeze so I think what's what's fascinating is that no one channel 1 broadcaster Austria match really having easy at the moment.

It's got very much Andy please come back on the tv.

Critic now because he's a headline from the athletic which is watching Premier League football in the UK everything is going to change that connects to the next round of Premier League TV rights.

Do you think the headlines like the overstating things or if this is this a big moment? It's slightly overstating things a little bit.

The UK as a really interesting market because the so long we've had a duopoly between BT Sports which is now TNT sports having been taken over by Warner Brothers Discovery and sky a couple of a few Cycles Argo Amazon Prime did come in to buy a package but their motive for that was that it's in December they can push people towards Christmas shopping so not know and we don't really have another big competitor in the market.

So it's going to be very hard for the Premier League to find somebody else to come in and buy those right everybody was talking about I'm not fully convinced are going to be going for those rights know what's right and other sports to see if the end of this Arena let's bring it on talking suits from the goal diggers podcast thanks for joining us you excited by the prospect of being consumed football in a different way.

Yeah, I mean I think you know going back to the previous conversation.

We streaming.

Is it here? It's now so I think whether it's on TV streaming as a football fan is trying to get it fixed.

So you know by a different package or or but I still think sport is something that you intend to watch live and we're all there always be a space for the live TV when it comes to have to watch it.

I'm interested that you say that of course watching football live is a keeper experience, but it strikes me as someone who follows it that more and more how those Live games are bundled up afterwards whether it's in clips on social media or highlights packages.

Also feels like a a bigger and bigger part of the equation for football fans.

Take me to watch a 90-minute football game.

It is going to be about highlights trying to catch people's attention.

You know we living in an attention economy now really so it's about trying to get her one minute to minute clip people's pension is the is the content the access to the content that the Premier League is offering are they offering different types of contents of what they may have done in previous deals for the next cycle there.going.to.be offering more games and it won't include the 3 p.m.

Blackout that will still remain as it was with the EFL rights earlier this year.

I think it's under pressure when you look at some of the stats around piracy and stuff like it's it's a prime reason why a lot of UK fans.

Go it go down that route because there is literally no access and just explain for people listening.

You aren't football fans the 3 p.m.

Games on Saturdays cannot be shown live on TV and what you're saying is that some firms in the UK find a way of watching that anyway.

Big deal is so it's a really big deal.

So we so we run our consumer survey around sports fans and the figure of UK football fans who pirate is between 70% and but these are also 80% yeah, but he's also majority of them are paying customers so the way it's working is he might have a Sky package and sky as obviously quite expensive so you're paying in for one day and then you might end up pirating the games that are on TNT sports or the 3 p.m.

Blackout or vice versa some of the conversations.

You might have with this natural podcast.

Yeah, as a fan.

It's really frustrating that you know this is the English Premier League in the UK but other countries get the 3 p.m.

Games live but that we can't you want to follow your team so I can you know that that figure doesn't surprise me with a lot of people and it sounds it sounds like from the piracy statistics than the knowledge saying that quite a few fans in the UK are so fed up with the 3 p.m.

Blackout.

They're taking taking matters into their own hands and watching it illegally yeah, I don't think it's you know during covid every game was shown live and that was for Christmas I don't believe you know having that 3 p.m.

Blackout means that people are going to you know go and watch their team play because it may be on TV there are quite a lot of people that don't live close to to their local Timor

When I just want access to be able to watch the games considering how much the scription so if you do have Skype you have the until whenever it is so kind of only still have a selection of games especially if you don't you know you support not one of the traditional Big Six football clubs in the Premier League you might only be on television.

You know once every two months, but that's really difficult if you can't afford to go and watch them then how do you watch your tea? I'm talking with a little while ago about the mainstreaming players in the context of football.

It's quite a select group would have the finances inclination to get involved in a bidding bidding war over Premier League rights you mentioned three BT Sport just become TNT Sports Sky Sports obviously and Amazon is there no really no one else play Enter the arena hearing and save mate.

I fancy a piece of the action.

Well.

There's always been rumours about Apple and they've obviously dip their toes into live sport in the US with their deal with the MLB

For baseball and then also with the Everlast switches the US soccer league, but the way they've normally work so far is they are not putting money into the production side of it.

They will take a feed from the director consumer service so the MLS streaming apps.

It's on the Apple TV and then they all have a revenue share agreement with it.

I just can't see them getting involved in this so the premier league if they want to push up domestic values are going to have to prove their worth to BA3 broadcasters, and I just finally Lauren that what we're talking about for consumers for fans connect to WhatsApp talking about in the fact that especially during the cost of living crisis people don't have necessarily the money.

They once had to spend on whether it's TV or sport that starts affecting how much football they're willing to pay for absolutely I mean I think I'm more for football being with providers, but we already know for example.

You know when the Premier League

What's the game but I think you know the same thing because you're watching entertainment shows you think ok? I think where it becomes really difficult as a football goes to a platform that you that you don't have you have to make an assessment.

You know how many of these days am I going to watch it because it's really expensive think we are at that point of saturation at the moment will see you in the arena and webinars right to say that the moment is looking like those three big players that she listed.

Thank you very much indeed tomorrow MoDA from a analysis the TV critics got Brian Brian merchant from the la Times Eugene Kim from inside a business and Lauren who we just finished with their Lauren Dawkins from the goal diggers podcast thanks for listening bye-bye.