Read this: Trying Trump

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts wanting to litigate his election conspiracy trial in the media rather than the court.

We've gathered a panel of Us Janice to tell us what happens next will also be digging into a rat Frances national Sunday newspaper journalist have been on strike in some of the van left in protest after a new editor was appointed, but I want to talk first Jeff Jarvis professor of journalism and founder of us magazine entertainment weekly who's written a new book asking some very big questions about mass media unintended consequences welcome to the media show Jeff and we'll come onto the title the parenthesis in a minute, but in your book you recently set out to compare the Invention of two technologies the printed book in the Fifteenth century and the internet in the 20th century.

Why?

Take a div ID here was that if we're going for a huge transition with the internet it could be useful to see what lessons might be learnt from our transition into the Egypt as we leave it curly.

I'm not seeing the print dies, but I am saying that there were huge transitions in that time that we can learn from institutions that were changed reformation account information thirty Years War let's hope that's not my letterbox now and just explain it's called the parenthesis.

What is that is a very from three academic at the University of Southern Denmark time zone is Sarah Burge and Mary on board who say that the years of print were an exception a grand exception in history and now on the internet.

We are returning to a more conversational society that came before print changing myself.

There is not much of a sense of the ownership of authorship of transit now can't it is carried everywhere now the business model.

These are the elements of the change that were undergoing and so what you want to reexamine hear that is what happens to the institutions of society that I mean everything from 2nd and of course good and bad just a reminder for listeners was the inventor of the printing press and one of the things you say at is you equate him Guttenberg with Steve Jobs why what's the plural of movable type was created in China and Korea before it Europe or Western story begins in mines with Gutenberg he was in a way that he had the soul technological problems.

He had the solve financial problems and he invented something he was a man of his past his present to booked it already taken on the phone.

We know now for 50 years later was indexes in title pages.

It took 150 years to see innovation and invention with print the modern novel was Cervantes

It was another century and 17th but we got a business model for print with copyright and on and on the story in our history as I understand it is living through the end of the era of the book and if the book to find the last 500 years I'm assuming that bike racing Gutenberg was Steve Jobs what you're saying is the medium replace the door big reveal but you know there's the internet is that is that is that is that the Point Clear here that I in the book of don't give you a spoiler at the end of the book.

I really can't what I said and saying that the book should be updated Madeley cable and clickable.

I returned all of that they look very last words in The Apprentice or let the book by the book it is an institution that we can judge ourselves against however are the same time.

I'm excited that we have voices who were always there, but who could not be heard but it was on media were controlled by all white men who look like me and so ill.

Facebook we have black Twitter we have voices were coming on who were not there in mainstream media and that abundance of speech is something I celebrate however the institutions created for quality and authority in speech editing and publishing are not adequate to the scale of speech today and we're going to have to invent new institutions to find discover recommend quality authority credibility in this new age of abundance speech companies are still quite old but they're definitely still the white man you seem to be from the book when Michael be up beat about what might come next but as you say you're so they concerned about some of the things we might lose in an error for exam more more people go to social media for news.

We're losing the authority and reliability that comes from the printed word.

I think it's time for us to stop looking at the end of letter techno.

Print in its earliest days was seen as technology the technologies were in charge but again then other institutions and jobs came along bookseller editor publisher now with the white man or stolen charge and I think about them.

I think we have to bring in the other disciplines in the humanities FX English religion psychology anthropology those of the people who I think are going to make a real impact on what public discourse and creativity become in this next stage once the geeks Graham please can you tell me the Invention of printing clearly led to some serious upheavals both religious and social the Invention of the internet is doing the same obviously talk about the ways silicone off a wheel more power than governments for example.

I'm in your a in your view.

You say the age of speech will challenge the idea of the nation-state just explain that will be.

Helped create it in the centre with Martin Luther decided to publish his templates and his theses in German rather than in Latin he created a public around that this is critical and by publishing in Germany also standardised the language that a dialect is a language without an army and Navy and so the sense of German this or English nest or around the language Hendon necessarily destroys the nation that all but every single institution that came along with print.

It was helped along by print is perhaps challenge now point is not that about the mystic necessarily we could make it we've already made many mistakes my point is that we have choices to make and to make those choices responsibly.

I think it's important to look back at history and we're talking in a minute about the US election and the trials of Donald Trump and also about the political polarisation potentially happening in France both arguably field.

Internet, what do you think the changes that you're describing in the will mean for societies long-term? I'm too old to know I don't know what I was going to turn out.

I think the we believe that the change when the going right now is rapid and huge and it may be true but I actually think it may be slow were the year 1480 in Gutenberg years were only a quarter century past the introduction of the commercial browser.

You don't know what is going to go and that's why I want to advertise this notion that we have choices.

We have responsibility weekend.

I think just stand back and let companies take over witness Elon Musk as a wireless taking over public discourse on Twitter is a dangerous thing.

We need to return to the open-source effect of the internet.

We need to support competitors for these big companies and see where we could go with them.

Thank you so much for now at a reminder to people just chilling and you're listening to the media show on Radio 4 and we're going to turn to Donald Trump

Has three criminal trials pending the latest and most serious concerns allegations that he can spy to overturn the results of the 2020 election when it gets the full trial it will be box office here to discuss how the media will handle all this Elie honig senior legal analyst at CNN and a form of federal and state prosecutor in the US also know my name from the Washington Examiner an army bar of the Washington Post thank you for coming on the media show I mean I said it would be box office and clearly we've got used to dramatic scenes of American Justice broadcast direct from courtrooms Simpson trial you know the trial of the killer of George Floyd but Ellie that's actually not what's going to happen in any of these cases as it stands.

I mean none of his early proceedings have been televised just explain why was so that's how it looks for sure so we have federal courts in the United States that we have steak words to of the Donald Trump cases the marahlago case in the January 6 related case.

The other one which is about to become to or a New York and Georgia state court now the federal courts have a long and if I can opinion 8star g tradition of the following video cameras TV cameras or even live audio feed of their preceding the only exception to that actually interesting way it came up the recovered when the US Supreme Court which is our top began to start live audio streaming there proceedings and despite fears about what happened the sky do not fall into coram was maintained separately we have two other Donald Trump won in New York Manhattan which does for the court has not allowed cameras in they have a little more leeway there and then down in Georgia that is likely is coming next week that will be up to that.

Yes, you're right the big ones tomorrow Margo classified documents case and the January 6th or intercourse and unless we see a change and there is a little bit of a sort of crossbows and movement for Change

Live audio going to be covering those like it's like it back in the Gutenberg ok and if I was just going to bring in Jeremy by here Jeremy that's challenging enough for the medium.

What are the other challenges can't even bring their phones in I mean what length are John is going to to get round these rules or anything here to them, but at least wait report successfully is the mass of a testicle challenging it.

Obviously does not serve the public particularly.

Well.

Ellie's employer CNN employed High School student service production assistants in the Ford Edge case to basically high school students coming in run notes from the court room out to public pay phones.

Is you know it's very very hard to do it makes it makes you tired my charger and obviously doesn't it doesn't serve the public information they need but obviously media companies got any length.

They can to get the information out and they compete with each other to do it but your TV networks particular need visual.

They need action and it's very hard to do that with the somebody sitting in my leg.

Just to bring you and make calls for Greater Media access to the federal goals have intensified recently.

Do they split along political lines actually? I think some of them and be honest and we saw a letter come out last week from congressional Democrats and sort of advocating to a federal judge who oversees some of the administration about it.

Look that was California representative Adam Schiff it was a very dominant anti-trump and lawmaker, but they thought about saying help public trust in the system particularly at a time.

Politics such institutions and sorry that was something from the Democratic 3000 Democrat sign into that but we've also seen movement in I think the grass is from either also advocated for it.

So there is movement towards but again I mean Congress here.

Is it serious or not getting anything done anything at this time Horizon for these cases a little bit longer as I know Donald Trump has said he would like to see the Conspiracy trial televised just explain.

What are the routes to televising happening? Could it happen so the reason of the federal courts refuse to to televise cases is because the federal courts cases.

They have these rules that they themselves the judges have created and if you ask a federal judge.

Why is that? I got into this with some of them because I've been sorted out spoken on this issue, they always.

We don't want our cases to sending it to showmanship in that kind of thing you gave a great example 2 years ago.

We had a televised trial of the murder of George Floyd was well conducted dignified fair transparent proceedings rules change the judges themselves can change them the Chief Justice of the United States John Roberts actually does have the sides all this board that makes rules or as the other pedals said he could pass away if you want to do anything you might be holding your breath away and in terms of the mood in the legal system on the issue.

How much traction do you think it's getting in from talking to people in the profession is growing groundswell of support for televising these conferences.

I think the judges are finding themselves increasingly outdated and sorted out voted.

Our constitution says or trouser public any person can walk into a Quorum people to try cases civilians with walk-ins are interested the curious you can watch it at a key feature of our legal system.

So why are we training this like? It's 1850 when we have all this technology now but again judges.

They're going to do if they're going to want to do a course Jeremy bath in the Washington Post what do you think the advantage for trump Donald Trump would be if the trial was on TV is it would it be an advantage to him in your assessment and his lawyer John Lewis said that he wants to trial to be televised this isn't a team so did happen and it doesn't mean too much but I think you know I think he's somebody who comes in the entertainment World he enjoyed this back to go certainly debate about whether you know this all different being and I didn't have to be around that visual help someone hurts.

I mean certainly not on Fox News which I spend all my time watching in covering and he was covered as a day.

I was being so brought up the victim of political persecution so I think it's of the jury's out a bit as to whether or not this would really help him to be there one side about transparency and as he was saying about the Rope injustice and then arguments about whether somebody can sort of posture and perform for the cameras clearly the prosecutors Jeremy worried that Donald Trump plans to litigate by Media there also calling for him to be gagged.

So he can't release confidential Court documents into the public domain ahead of the trial what's happening with that well.

I mean as well.

There is a ruling today by the judge the remedia party is that appeal to have the cameras in there tomorrow for a new hearing and that was tonight as well, so you know there's a concern me that Donald Trump is basically the case on social media on through social and generally speaking these gonna try using this platform.

Phone 215 believing the charges as well and he's trying to win the case in the court public opinion before a joke actually be seated and Washington exam in terms of your assessment of the coverage of the hearing the court cases so far.

What have you seen in terms of how different networks covering them? I think last provider split screen and how different on organisations are covering letter example Fox News and 9 p.m.

Our not really focusing on it.

I know that Sean hannity soon raise the actor of an impeachment enquiry into a President Trump over his alleged conflict of interest with his son and his business dealings.

I did notice MSNBC really good to and the cases with seeing it on board with the January 6th 2020 11 election coverage ratio of really bored in this idea of the delay Tactics that Trumps legal.

I really am deploying particular kind of I'm drying lines between that and the former presidents inclination to maybe not paying contractors and back in his day as a business.

I think that's really sweet of it's a bit provide an example of how the public in there different corners in a different portable corners are also being understanding of this case MSNBC going to town on Netflix a bit less interested or a lot less interested.

Just end it just to pick up on that point.

I made a Jeremy earlier about this business of them ask the prosecutors asking for Donald Trump gagged.

We can't release confidential Court documents.

Can you just explain that I want to see any criminal defence United States have it right to criticise probably your prosecutor your judge.

I wouldn't recommend it, but you're all how to do it what the prosecutors are asking here is to prevent them from taking what we call the discovery meaning the actual evidence that.

Heading over a Donald Trump witness statement exhibit and then publicising that are looking to restrain her from doing that Donald Trump has come back and well willing to work with you here, but have it if we just had a limitation place on our ability to disseminate sensitive documents and will let you deal with a side in the first instance.

What is an is not sensitive to the judges going to have to sort of find some sort of Little Brown on that there's a broader issue.

That has not yet.

Come up which is can Donald Trump be prevented from speaking just putting the discovery materials out there just speaking publicly in an inflammatory way about the judge to prosecutors order Witnesses when is more tricky to get over the line presumably I mean in terms of Donald Trump's Media strategy when it comes to these trials, what would you what would you say?

I think they're really leaning into I know the journey was the same whether it helps a Hindu him, but I think the campaign is a very cognisant of this idea of the public place or not.

I know that's all this federal and I mean there was the option that he could have zoomed in and they chose not to they had a date of doing videos of his arrival and things like that which I still might be used for light campaign purposes, so they really mean to my sort of seeing this really crossing the line between accounting and legal team in terms of how and he's fighting off of these challenges and Donald Trump seems to climb every time.

I did his popularity increase is that right? What are the polls say about that? I think the very beginning with in the March when he had a new lock case I think that was definitely he got sort of an average three points in the polls.

I'm after this way to send diamond also as I'm in June in Miami classified documents case it's left so I'm also seeing as

Fundraising I think he raised sort of millions of Dollars the first time in only a couple.

This is the second time also just like general interested is seeming to wait.

I think even insert and stuff like that.

It's also declining and it's worth staying at this point that Donald Trump denies all the charges in all the cases.

It does look like he's got another one coming down the road will be indicted in the state of Georgia as you mentioned earlier and that is a state that I think does allow trials to be televised so would it be a bit of a nonsense for the public to see a trial in detail in that case in isolation and not see the rest? What does it not like that doesn't matter it's a different states who that's it underscores the start of the inconsistency star system that I think if Georgia manage is the oldest trial I I think that'll be sort of a shot across the bow with the federal judiciary important to note that there is a practical matter.

There is only so much time between out.

Number 2024 presidential election and what you see now is the four different cases are all jockeying for position on the calendar.

I don't think there's any chance that Georgia case gets there last in line.

I don't think there's any keys that one gets tried before the election.

I get a question about the election and then we had the series of trials in 22025.

What's the level of interest going to be what's the level of care and he wins the election there won't be any trials Jarvis is still with us Jeff in your book you talk about the 17th century French newspaper.

That was so loyal to Cardinal yeah that he was the cardinal and Louis the 13th you compare it to what trump expect to Fox News killing as a bit of a falling out before It's News at that point a few a few months ago, but are you a Surgery St whatever that it is a resource when you have one part of a population that is more than likely controlled by One media outlet in France at the time in the city.

Was one newspaper right wing America there is one TV station and that is Fox News and under Rupert Murdoch control.

What people are not seen it support throughout the slightest indictment switched over the channel and they're transitory only on Hunter Biden they are depriving their audience of information about the indictment and where the country goes and that's ok will something to learn from the 1600s and the French newspaper because I want to stay with French newspapers because fascinating story changes at Le journal du dimanche the country's own national Sunday paper have led to uproar and an exodus of staff they went on strike in the papers owner had a new editor who they claim has far-right associations with me to spread some light on the story is the French journalist and yes party hello and yes, hello just tell us for 40 days then half of them.

Just explain a bit more detail what they were worried about well.

It's quite simple the festival.

I think we need to to say that are different in Britain for instance that we love calling it by its accurate was so it will be that's how it snowing in France jdd perhaps because it's on Sunday morning with your bag yet, and why do we love the butter buying the she did it it's because it's neutral politically I mean you know where the journalist lean, but I turn the ride on the left which is number case with you know daily newspapers likely be assured vigour hold the more you buy them because they

Are closer to your body to go hot let's say but she did it was never like this so the journalist and there are more than 100 m i said look fine.

Of course.

I mean this is freedom of press.

You know you can have a left or right whatever linen newspaper, but this is not what does she did he say about you cannot send me take 180° you know about time absolutely and this is what are this new Andrade youngest 34th editor going to do what are the allegations about this new editor Jeff wireless charging and his patients with the far right as it's as it's been claimed.

Well.

It's not allegation you can say I'm in there are facts you can say about your collagen was the public supporter.

Eczema eczema is this right vibrams to run for presidency last year, so this is a fact now.

He used to work shift.

What is a far-right leaning weekly and that was actually under his editorship, but it was Condemned by the justice for racist insults find the fear is that this is not the fairs that he's he will want to give it a day off alright colour and the paper has been bought by a conserved billionaire convincible of it.

Just tell us a little bit about him.

Blue hair is 71 is a billionaire investor in the media and other businesses and is well known as a ultra Catholic and ultra conservative the person MATCH magazine people in canal + TV network and that rolling use network seen you I think it's become a conservative platform which people can use these days channel which also has known the same kind of purge of its turn is just left massively because of that he hasn't spoken for some that what happened to J D D we did also approach the new editor for comment we haven't had any response but a senior executive says it is fantasy that the extreme right is working its way into the paper but I suppose.

Come to the end is worth just asking you know France doesn't have a tabloid culture like the UK but what do you think this story tells us about potential polarisation of the media in France I mean I'll be heading in the direction.

I wouldn't say in the USA compared.

You know Debbie has the right one but they are Presidential elections in 4 years the national assembly is quite polarised.

We have a minority government you know Santa centre rights centre left and very vocal far-right and far left and this is what's happening to the summer so OK well.

That is a point to end on worrying worrying potentially for the future, but we will see we'll keep an eye on that story and find out whether the paper does change it but thank you so much to all of you coming on the media show and yes, but we are you hearing from just then Jeff Jarvis with his new book The Golden bow parenthesis also Elie honig from.

And I'm from the Washington Examiner and Jeremy bar of the Washington Post the media show will be back next week.

You can catch up with all our programs on BBC sounds, but until then thank you for goodbye.