Read this: The Hegarty Effect

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in this week's show talk to a legend of British advertising Sir John Hegarty join the industry in the 60s by the 80s who co-founded the agency Bartle Bogle Hegarty by 2012 it would be sold for over 100 million on the way to John was making adverts many of which you're still remember.

You're not late.

This my watch it is always fast so sexy playing a guitar technique those are adverts for Levi's links and Audi to John Haggerty welcome to the media show for lots of adverts, but one that's very close to the top of the

Nick Cayman in the laundrette advert Marvin Gaye playing and of course he starts stripping off to everyone July when did you have that idea and how easy was it to get made? Well that was back in 1984 the script was actually really a product demonstration of stone washing previously to get your jeans the way you really wanted them.

You had to Stone some yourself in some shape or form and so I had this idea that why don't I have a guy going into a launderette to Stone wash jeans because he wants on the perfect way.

He's only got one pair of jeans is not usually wealthy and it will go in and put jeans in in the washing machine to Stone wash them stripped down to his underwear and sit down next to a man that in the laundry out with him and in the original script.

We had him in what they called y-fronts you know we don't really talk about him and those who don't know before you can get a script appearing on TV it has two.

Approval process and when we submitted the Script it came bad that this was indecent the man was getting undressed in a public place.

We can't approve the Script the wife and got turn down turn down and they came back after about weeks of this argument and we've just been thinking about it if you put him into a pair of boxer shorts that will be OK will be less indecent boxer shorts that sort of dodgy American underwear from the 40s and God I think that's going to get the Script through then would do we put him in the boxer shorts get undressed the commercial runs the sales of fibre one go through the roof and the sales of boxer shorts go through the roof and they still for sale everywhere so you had a permanent impact on the underwear choices exactly and it's Calvin Klein everything not not one's not even send me a spare pair of boxer shorts.

Suede yourself for the mirrors of your idea, but then in advertising you need to persuade to other crucial audiences the client and then in turn the audience I wonder with ideas whether it's Nick came and his trousers in the Levi's advert flat Eric and another Levi's ad a little later the first challenges to get The Brand on site before you worry about anything else indeed and that's where strategy comes in so what do you have to get your strategy right? What are you trying to invest? What does the brand believe in what is it trying to achieve and what strategy do we need to get there? And that's got the intelligence and then the magic does the creative where you take that intelligent so for instance with Audi it was the obvious thing of people don't understand it was a German car before Audi was made in Belgium no idea wasn't Mercedes-Benz BMW Volkswagen very German sounding now so we had a convince people that it was a German car.

And actually had a different view on being a German it wasn't like the others it wasn't sterling it wasn't strict it had a sense of humour.

So to speak that word you're saying each brand needs to know what it believes in but I have some brands don't behalf so clothing brand makes clothes and it does that very well, but it doesn't have belief that come along with will all brands have a philosophical foundation in some shape or form in a when you have an idea to start a business you don't just go I'm going to make t-shirts you can't go I'm going to make t-shirts unlike other people's t-shirts with that's the only reason to be in business.

You don't go into business to make something exactly like everybody else and that actually gives the brand a kind of a philosophic core which people then respond to that call change because you'll be well aware will Elon Musk is doing with Twitter if you stretch a brand too far.

Do you say?

That connection with its with its foundational beliefs for example or I think there's no question about that.

You know those kinds of people but I kind of think he's breaking his bond with his his kind of users in a sense of there is a kind of an awareness of does an awareness of what it does the winners of the and you can have a relationship that if you go is not longer Twitter is x he's kind of destroying part of a relation is had with those people and they may not go with you.

They may not they may say I'm sorry.

I'm this is a step too far for me and of course you've got competitors coming along friends.

Who can you come and join us.

That's the very nature of a competitive economy.

Let me just understands one distinction that you're making repeatedly because I think.

It's useful for me in the in its basic form.

We think about icing saying he's a product that you might want to purchase in some form, but you don't talk about selling products as much as you do about brands and so what's the relationship there when does advertising stop being simply about telling you about a product that you might want to buy and starts becoming about the longer-term something deeper well.

There's a difference between a product and a brand product and it's a product of energy and we buy it and get Brandon merge because industrialisation and we all moved into cities towns or whatever they were and suddenly you couldn't buy the things you need it from someone who lives next door to you so at the core brands emerge because I don't worry you can buy this from me and you can trust what I say you can trust that I will deliver the things that I put on the package.

So trust is at the core of what a bra.

And then a brand kind of grows from that and it has a series of beliefs about how it treats the environment how it treats the people that work for it so it takes on pensions over and above just being a product so for instance when Steve Jobs launched apple what it was trying to do is not just make a personal computer.

He was trying to free p to get the information.

They wanted when they wanted it.

It was a bigger idea than selling a piece of hardware.

It was a point of view about where Society is going well.

We're going to unpack brand empact the current state of advertising and we're going to talk about the process of being creative and where the creativity is sufficiently valued but before we go any further to John Hegarty let's go back to the 1960s coming out of Art School you thinking about your career why advertising well.

I went from our school to design school because I love having ideas and you know my wonderful teacher said to me.

You said to me John I think you know you should think about being a graphic designer because there You'll Be employing ideas, so I went to what we think all the London College of printing to study printing and graphic designer.

Do I found out she most of the designers wanted to go back to being televised they were interested in the colour blue one which time face to use and do I put it in the top left hand corner of the page and whatever design my love to bridal.

What's the idea that time? I was I was shown some amazing work being done in New York by wonderful agencies their primary for the company and it showed however Tyson could be funny intelligent, but it also could be inclusive and across the other thing is you suddenly go if I was studying painting.

I'm might do a canvas and maybe 300 people if I'm lucky might see it but all of a sudden you have a poster on dinner some major motorway and

Does a people see what you do an ego trippin' there in a way this could be amazing I get 30 seconds of people's time on television how incredible who gets that and get the advertising industry and thinking I'd like the step into that you were living in a world where a cultural Revolution was playing out in a whole range of different ways as you stepped into advertising.

Did you feel that Revolution within the industry to know it was very interesting cos I think it made the 60s and Nazeing was in my view is the first time that culture was Ground Up The Beatles or Rolling Stones but because advertising was controlled by corporations because your point about clients they work under 10 years behind I'm buying large or corporations a 10 years behind and so it took the 70s for this Revolution that was happening with the 60s to happen in.

And then agencies brilliant agencies like College Dickinson peers that did Hovis you know you probably remember that now Boy by a couple of days and then Saatchi and Saatchi which I was a foundation started in 1970 and then came into advertising and therefore may be advertising industry much much more interesting.

I mean advertising up to that point of being pretty boring isn't terrible staff we all for jingles and it it repeated and repeated and repeated believing that was the way to get a message into somebody's hit by them over the head until that there was submission so just be that became harder and harder as media became more expensive for these corporations to do that at the same time you had an audience who were going I don't want to watch this rubbish.

I don't read this garbage and the first generation.

I think in a way to come into the advertising industry to say you've got to entertain before you can convince and then you had an amazing film.

Ridley Scott who who are learning how to film forever chasing about Alan Parker you had you Hudson you had a Dreamliner with people came out of advertising and they were how to film through making entertaining films it was a brilliant time to be around.

What was it that made you in the early 80s think I need to go out on my own with a couple of partners.

We just believe we could do it better with our beliefs rather than believes that were belong to somebody else.

We had a great relationship with our previous agency tbwa and doing wonderful but we kind said no we have a belief system founded in the three of us John Bartle Nigel Bogle and myself about how it should be done the kind of agency wanted the kind of people going to employ the people we want to be associated with so we realise we had to do it for ourselves and giving you and control were there people you wouldn't work with with the client.

I would love to work with your new agency.

That sounds really exciting and you said no thanks.

Yes there were a number of we wouldn't work with cigarette companies Brothers never having a debate with a group of advertising people talk about what he would you work out or would you not work and some people so what if it's illegal why shouldn't be promoted.

It's her job is and somebody wasn't me.

Just I would never want to promote something.

I wouldn't my children to partake of and I thought it was a brilliant way of defining what you would or wouldn't work on and you know I wouldn't want my children to smoke.

So why would I go in to my agency working on a cigarette account convincing people smoke when I go home and say whatever you do.

Don't smoke also we wouldn't work with the government because the government always wanted to see the work all day appointed you and we had a fundamental belief that the creativity was too important to just do it for nothing so to speak and so we never worked with government departments we were.

We work with John Major only went to me Chris Patten you I thought was a lovely man.

I feel really bright and we did put it that way we will do it will go back to the agency and have a vote would you to work with the Tory party and and John Major and the vote came back? No so we said no there's a principle that we hold onto was that because of John Major and the Conservatives or was that simply that your colleagues didn't want to get involved in politics.

I think it was more they just didn't want to get involved in politics and trouble with politics is very divisive we have a philosophical different over a pair of jeans or you might go well.

I'm going but it's not philosophical when it comes to politics.

There is a philosophical different you have no describe how brands all brands as it correctly have some core beliefs when you consider whether to advertise them.

Do you need to share those core beliefs?

You have to I think you know because if I just say something about creativity and I define creativity was first.

We're all creative everybody is creative then.

I Defying created as an expression of self it is you expressing your beliefs your thoughts or ideas that is creativity and therefore you know that how often have you seen somebody on TV or whatever being interviewed about their latest film painting poem or whatever how many times have said I wanted to save this and that's what you doing with creativity.

So even when you're engaged with a client you kind of got to believe in what they believe in otherwise.

There's a difference.

So you can't really put your heart and soul into it is presumably that's the key to creativity that the Sparks that one person might miss another captures and turns into something let's take for example the famous Audi slogan, who would think to use a

Slogan in an English-speaking market, what was the moment that you were one of your colleagues thought that's a good idea.

Well it came from I do this when you win a new account you go to the factory recorded a factory visit then you'll talk to people that you know might have an interesting point of view and I was going round the factory in English that then I saw an old poster on it could be left out by somebody and it had more stronger technique and I said to the the guy taking so what's that he said I was also be used to use with my son fine ok, and it went in and then we came back and we will doing all the work and we had this conversation we were doing television we were doing posters and we were doing print and we didn't have done the work and Nigel said how do we tired all together? What's the kind of glue that sticks all that poster the TV and the print and all together?

Just had this funny thought why don't we decided off in German Vorsprung durch Technik and the writer? I was working with the time Barbara Knox just added to it.

She said as they say in Germany and so we thought that's brilliant and even though you kind of Technique is obviously technology and something to do with technology and so after a big debate we went with it the climb researched it and this is interesting you do don't do it and research and wonderful wonderful clients an Audi at the time, but we want to convince people of our German heritage and engineering and stuff like that.

So they said forget the research.

We going to go with it and the rest of the says.

And what you seem to be describing in terms of your experience with Audi is that a couple of key moments you ran on instinct by spotting that's Logan and deciding to suggest it you're right a colleague ran on instinct by saying what am I had as the German say and then the clients ran on instinct by saying actually we won't look at the research.

Let's go for it.

Anyway.

How does using that Instinct fit into an advertising industry now which uses data and technology more and more and more and which to someone on the outside Looking In would appear to base more and more of its decision on the hard numbers will I think it suffered badly? There is a reason why people have any increasing dislike of advertising and I completely understand.

It is forcing herself on people believing that the way to convince somebody is to stalk them in that stalking I can do the new media strategy for advertising.

Basically what you do as you have all the data on somebody and see this person might be interested in motorbike so I will use their data to put motorbike garage or magazines in front of is that's talking or is that offering them adverts that are more relevant to their interests.

It's talking you're following them something following you all the time is not allowing you the freedom to discover things yourself what happened to do as we've lost that sense of the two things that advertising have to do is called persuasion and promotion I had to persuade you that this is a wonderful product and then I can promoted to you.

I can then say this week.

I've got a special offer on it, but now all we do is promote.

There's a strong word for using their do you not think the balance has shifted rather than the persuasion has completely stopped.

I think the balance of shifted and I think that it's a the technology companies have convinced people that you don't need all this wastage.

You to do that broadcast I'm talking to people who own going to buy your product and I want to be clear on what you mean by broadcast because you're not just referring to TV and radio.

Are you I mean I think Richard has built an amazing by broadcasting what he believes in now.

He does it by flying a balloon around the world while this man staring is interesting.

He's a plastic entrepreneur broadcast I mean that in the in a sense of the word.

Yeah.

That's great thing you say about a brand a brand is made not just by the people who buy it also by the people who know about it.

So they're giving example Taylor Swift now.

I know all about Taylor Swift I never going to download one of a tractor.

It's not my kind of music but I know about it and that knowing about it adds to her value.

So that's why Fame as we call it is fundamentally important.

You know about it then.

Gives it added value that there is maybe something that works with globally famous people like Taylor Swift's or incredibly well-known global brands like virgin.

That doesn't all people are engaged with the advertising industry because in some cases.

It might be useful to narrowcast.

It's all for the other side of the coin to broadcasting where you are putting your product or your brand in front of the smaller group of people who are most interested in it, but you don't have a sizing is about conquest.

It's not just about sales.

It's about constantly looking and moving so that you're creating a new market.

What happens in advertising have a very dedicated audience who love your product, but they're getting older every year.

They get older and then eventually they start dying natural products die because they haven't gone out and convinced a new audience hey this is something that you might like this is something you might believe in shortly though.

Technology has to fit into the equation you talking about setting up your agency in the early 80s now all these years on much more data is available in terms of how the brands performing and the different medium that you can use to get your brand across wouldn't it be cavalier and reckless of people working in the advertising industry not to use the technology and not to use the data of course data crucially important.

You've got to use data, but what date will tell you is, what has been it.

Will tell you what is happening out there, but you're trying to change tomorrow.

I'm trying to get somebody to rethink what they feel about an Audi car.

I'm trying to get somebody to think what they think about Levi's jeans.

I'm getting them to change the interview was Henry Ford said you know if I've listened to 2 data.

I have made a faster horse.

I wouldn't have made a car.

So you know you've got to be careful data.

Is is fun?

Important people doing it just a going there for the holidays their driving that kind of car.

Are you eating that kind of knowledge and that knowledge is fundamentally important because you might want to do something different to know what people doing to understand how to move forward but you've got to make a leap a leap of imagination as you're talking and thinking of a couple of imaginative leave so wanted to to run buy you one was your must deciding that Tesla would have no marketing budget at all.

What did you make of that because of course if all brands took that approach then the advertising industry wouldn't have much budget to spend with talking bullshit isn't it? Does have a marketing budget.

He launches one of his cars into space.

That's called marketing playing adverts that say that as I said brought.

Just buying an ad or taking a space in the newspaper or online can be yellow mask projecting a car into space.

That's a great way to launcher car, I would.

Understand is that tomorrow TV adverts I'm going to start radio adverts.

I'm going to print adverts.

I'm going to stop billboards.

I'm going to stop but clearly the the mix of options available to an agency as they deal with the client and say we could do this.

I could do that is is diversifying at a rate of knots.

How do you assess the respective impact? It's very good question I mean people often say to me John but how do you in this crowded market with more stuff more stuff coming in how do you actually get people to listen to what you do as opposed to just I'll just get my message the individuals.

I think might buy my product and I said what you've got to have is a bigger idea a better idea and that therefore creativity becomes ever more important in this mix of kind of how you actually engage with your audience.

Do you think creativity automatically means being more adventurous and being bold the reason I ask is.

You're reading about the advertising industry now one of the common.

Refrains is that advertises become more cautious know that can Lions the big advertising get together a few weeks ago and a lot of people were talking about Bud Light and the advert on tiktok that they featured with the transit for the settling of any and the tagline trans people like beer to didn't have any got a lot of hostility on and sales in Bud Light dropped quite significantly.

What was your reading of the decision-making around that particular very much involved in a purpose-driven advertising and that purposes I attach myself to some minority group or some movement.

You know black lives matter or me to whatever that is very dangerous.

Very dangerous.

You have to earn the right to do that now for instance wearing Nike supported Colin Kaepernick in his taking the knee and

Share price went down in about a week and a half they share price short back up again and went even higher because Nike Hood earn the right to associate themselves with that issue.

They had been for years and years and years talking about the outsider people marginalised and they made those people very much a part of their brand new like that it worked because people said yes Nike ever done the right to do that have Bud Light done that I don't know so it becomes the danger is in that time does cynical move and people don't like cynicism and citizen by the way is the death of creativity there was there a more silico reading of what Nike do with Colin Kaepernick which was the this is a big important moment in America and as a corporation it decided to place itself within it and good for them and they said that's what we believe in.

Play had a firm commitment to those kind of beliefs and when you have that then that will work if you don't have that then he just becomes a cynical move.

Do you think advertising trying to persuade itself that it's doing something grander than is the reality or is that perception deserved to a certain extent it is something I think if you look at advertising history.

You can look at how is helped shape the world advertising has played a huge role and selling cigarettes, but played another role in helping stop those things so I think it's an industry.

That is a powerful force.

I think it's an industry that has a responsibility to act in a way which is beneficial to society as a whole therefore founded on truth fundamental the best advertising always is but I think more than that.

I think about great creativity is a green industry because if I have a better idea that idea needs.

Listen to convince people than an average idea and I think the world is being overwhelmed with average.

There's too much stuff coming out.

It's so I think great advertising only serves people better and engages with the challenges that entertains them but also great advertising Leeds less energy to get this message across we started talking about your timer.

Art School and coming out in the 1960s and deciding the advertising with the thing for you there may be people listening to us now who about stepping out into their career if they said to you.

I'm thinking about advertising or do you say I would encourage them to think about advertising but I would encourage them to think about it as it's an industry that needs to be changed when I came into it.

We believe it was an industry leading change and we I think not just me a whole group of people who came into a last time changed it.

Please come in and change it.

Thanks for joining us on the media.

Show thank you great talking to Ross