Read this: Hot off the press

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 yesterday said the recent intense heat waves would be virtually impossible without human-induced climate change will be discussing the approach the media takes to report in the climate story and the charge of hypocrisy level Daily Mail columnist Ross Clarke at the BBC climate editor Justin Rowlatt both are on the show along with Good Morning Britain broadcast meteorologist Laura Tobin and science commerce Angela who won the Financial Times and there's a new Ofcom survey find social media is the place where more more young people are accessing news content.

I'll be talking to Kamal Ahmed founder of gen Z Focus Media the news movement about why journalists should Embrace the change welcome to you all and first come out.

I want to ask you about the story.

That's in the news today the resignation of the NatWest boss in the row overnight.

Bank account you were financial journalist you also the editorial director of BBC News so in a former life.

You could have been involved in this story.

What is your take tall director of BBC News app ironing on stories at night that do involved the BBC all I would say that Simon Jack is an excellent journalist.

I work with him for 8 wonderful years at this fantastic organisation just a step back a bit from that specific and talk about sources people may not understand.

How sort of the used for journalism and people tell journalist things that the public should and need to know but they won't want to do that what we call on the record which means for quoting now in that type of situation you go through a process of checking the sea of the facts and chicken back with your sources and that is a very ordinary way of operating the key thing here.

Is that not the story about the Ripper

Actually the story is actually about Alice and whole people's Bank accounts and whether politics should come into whether or not people get banking services back to the big story and Nigel Farage spoke about that on the Today programme.

He said it was political the BBC story came from one source.

It was wrong BBC News apologise to Mr Farage now.

It's in the resignation of the woman who turned out to be the original source so keep up Janice a month.

They are absolutely because I say not everyone wants to go what's called on the record and therefore you use sources which you trust and has and has been revealed as has been revealed in this story.

It's the chief executive of the bank and when you are thinking about your sources.

You need to ensure that they are off the right.

In an organisation to be supposed to know things and to be accurate about those things so as I say the story is about this relationship and NatWest relationship with Nigel Farage it's not about actually what the BBC report it but for the media shows opening up into the understanding how the media works traditionally wouldn't go with one so so, can you explain when that might happen? I don't know the details I say nothing more nauseating dinner for medical director sort of a pining on what may have happened in this situation.

That's for the BBC not for me, but you always check I worked here for 5-years on there is the business editor and the economics editor and the systems were very very clear and are still there that you check your sources.

You would never go even if your source was sitting next to this story or involved in the story.

You would never go with a single source without checking it and I know that is what happened in this case so as I say, it's not the journalism that is.

Did you hear it's the banking politics who gets bank? Have you ever done a story with such dramatic consequences for a sauces one like that? Well.

I think we know what has happened.

Is is gonna have to be to have looked into but I have been involved in stories.

Where people have resigned.

Yes, I mean our job is to reveal the truth and that is work of journalists and it's hard work and we have to use sources at the right times and as has been revealed by the reporting of the story not just by the BBC but by many journalist is that it matters that people are allowed to have in services whatever within the law that political views.

Maybe we will be talking later about yours gen Z Focus news movement and the real you have right now in training influences, but I want to look at the store is domination the headlines run the alives escape from the Inferno just a couple of the ways the wildfires and heatwaves and Southern Europe have been reported that was a sun.

MTG standard headline, we've got Laura Tobin and Angela ahuja from the Financial Times but let's begin with Justin Rowlatt climate editor BBC News and Ross Clark from the Daily Mail Justin on Tuesday welcome here on Tuesday last week you covering the heatwave in Spain what is your approach been to cover in the climate story as it as it's been developing over the last 10 days or so well this exceptional heatwave in Southern Europe simultaneously the heat waves in the US and in Asia it was it was broadcast to get more intense and it was covering the whole of the the the northern Mediterranean in fact the southern Mediterranean as well, but was focused as a as a as a European heatwave, it was a big store.

It was a lot of people who can see in the BBC there was a wider climate context for it by a senior manager at the BBC said do you think this is something that you should go and do you know it's essentially.

Stop text that is can you add value as in your role as climate editor of this you don't like thought about it briefly and then said yes, I think I could because my judgement was that by being their you I would be in a position to anchor and give it a perspective but Correspondents on the ground wouldn't be able to do.

I think I'm just going to drop you a clip of you from last week.

Just to give the flavour out on patrol with outreach team checking on homeless people in southern, Spain what these temperatures do to the human body body temperature is 37 degrees in a higher or lower and I'll systems begin to shut down my body is fighting to stay at 37 degrees and that takes a huge amount of energy a huge toll on our bodies and just before I bring my scar.

Can you I know it's got some criticism.

You're the you are the BBC's first ever climate editor.

How do you decide what is and isn't a climate story?

I've been 4 years climate scientists have said that he weighs would become more frequent and more intense and longer in duration as a result of climate change that's what we have this was meant to report the second heatwave been one before that literally named the first one was Sarah beside figures from Greek mythology at the dog that guards the gates by the sticks the river before Hades and Bone man carries people over so they deliberately name, but I was actually bored in the heatwave.

This is very much for the kind of the kind of weather that we've been forecast would be a consequence of climate change its lots of climate Sciences for saying it was absolutely consistent with what they're saying.

I'm the way reports from weather forecast for meteorologist.

They were going to be record temperatures that you so the judgement.

We make as the BBC when we choose to send.

General it's not specific about climate.

It would be we were selling Jeremy bone to a war zone or if we were sending a royal correspondent Jonny dymond.

You need to follow the king around Canada weed make decisions.

We say what value can Johnny or Jeremy and to that story.

What are the costs in terms of financial cost but also we would consider the climate cost the carbon cost as well.

We play unbalance you do we think that's worthwhile.

Does it value does it add kind of content for the audience that make me an important story easier to understand the theme store itself important enough to justify that's all of those calculations would be made for everybody including me the first ever climate editor and you are laying out your story because I'm gonna bring was Clark in here because he does have a Jack has just said it was happening in Southern Europe genus of being sent to cover the story what what's your take on that was a story.

It was a story that was covering a lot of countries on the extreme temperatures under I don't have a problem linking it to climate change either in in the sense that you know that the evidence that climate change is bringing more extreme high temperatures, but what I feel we sometimes of lacking in a lot of reporting about BBC here, but I'm reporting across the board it when we get word thrown in like unprecedented temperatures well.

No not really was no temperature recorded on earth last week, then unprecedented apart from a new Chinese national temperature record and the lack of context often.

I mean you'd never get looking at some the coverage of the forest fires this week that in fact satellite data from NASA shows that over the past two day.

Change the amount of land being burned by wildfires globally Has Fallen Fallen by the quarter over that time because you know land-use reasons climate is not the only game here when it comes to to forest fires the hypocrisy charge the Daily Mail Centre camera.

I think to Justin Rolex house, because he flew to Spain what do you think that was hypocritical afford to do that appear on screen preaching about the level of preaching about climate change when you've just taken a flight will let you know that's the sort of thing that we keep being told that we shouldn't be doing but that's not really my biggest bugbear and my biggest burger.

Is is the

Hyperbole the history of it generates by it's very easy to sew together videos of fires floods and and 7 and create the impression that we're in the middle of some apocalypse, but you know the world there is always somewhere in the world that is on fire.

There is always somewhere in the world that is flooded and it is very poor climate is all about averages.

It's not what's happening in one place at one time and you know about forest fires actually do while decreasing around the world with six figures around the last week about 60000 deaths from last year's heatwave in Europe but ok.

I'm going to I'm going to just been talking for quite a while now.

I'm just going to give it a chance.

Ok, where should I start the hypocrisy question I think is really just you know and I think it's lots of people watching me Ross would be asking the same question that you were you say it isn't your bugbear bookend your article in the Mail on Sunday with that claim of April but I do actually do think lots of people watching would be like hold on a second mate.

I know you got to do so I think you know I think it is really I think it's really wanted to come on this program, because I actually do want to talk about that and I think we need to be open and discuss you know when it's appropriate to go and Report the will be those questions in the audience as mine and as I hope you in the studio last night back in London story mode in front of you are enjoying it very much on the ground and reflecting back on on reports that Correspondents you do other correspondence have made of things that happening around the world and kind of sending them in context and I'm very happy to do that but

Do have three simultaneous heat waves which you're saying I'm not you know you think the word unprecedented was inappropriate, but yeah, we've got this climate attribution studies that we had yesterday.

So they actually impossible without climate change they had figures for how much hot are they worth a look.

I'm really happy to discuss fires with you.

I'm not sure the media show us the right place to talk about the changing Africa which is responsible for 70% of the as you well know and you know that the the changing of the of the Savannah to agriculture is the main driver of the reduction of you also know that fires in areas like California and and Europe have increased but more spectacular still fires in the boreal forest in the arctic which never used to burn and now burning and totally and I'll use the advisedly the adjective Impreza how do you defend flying quickly flying by saying look if I go and Report the story in that way it has a dick.

Level of Engagement for the morning to meet you can go out you can see the temperatures for yourself and not the other point.

I just really quickly like to me.

It's not like I just go down there and do one report you know I start at 6 a.m.

In the morning reporting and breakfast and Report throughout the day all the way through the end of the day on all sorts of outlets radio TV online UK children's TV there's a lot of coverage that comes out of it so like in terms of audience value which is one of the things that we the BBC think about the I think I deliver in that setting quite a lot of Valium in Ross cabs respect your right to that would be my argument is another thing is raises concerns about changes in the way some of the heat mats.

We see any stories use colour and you suggested them misleading which I'm interested in what other people here.

Thank you.

Just explain that first go back a few years and weather map soon as show the light red.

Fred and then this year anything that's over you know about 35 celsius becomes a lord pink or even white you know what sort of white he's about 1200cc good deal hot and it was in Sardinia last week, but it's you look at those maps and you think what's going on here you think will you know this is being delivery presented in a way that is calculated to scare people on here from Good Morning Britain take that point is there any kind of standardisation on heatmaps used yet, so across ITV Weather BBC Weather there a scale for colours all the way down to - 50 all the way up to 60 and the colour scales are chosen by graphic designers, so that they can illustrate the cold and the hot and has it changed they haven't changed.

They are the colours of always used I was using an air mass chart and

Is that come up? Where is it heat coming from the heat of me coming from Africa through the Mediterranean sovos temperature is in the colours represent the heat.

That's coming all the way up from Africa we haven't changed them Dr them there is zero agenda.

When people doing weather forecast the weather forecast to dramatise the colours on the charts of those colours show people how hot it is as those colours that make us stand up and go my goodness.

Oh crikey.

This is unprecedented and your meteorologist you don't see yourself as a journalist that means that you are appearing every bulletins giving us the weather at how much are you talking about climate change for my job is to tell people the weather every day.

Hot cold wet dry.

Can you put out your washing that time is sacrosanct and we don't get sacrificed it, but anytime there's an extreme Weather story and the story on climate.

Sorry.

I was there to my can we talk about this and probably 10-4-10 510 years ago.

It was just a short story been drafted in here in there in recent years.

I would say hey there history the 16th extreme extreme that go.

Extremely extremely extremely the day this is getting a lot of them.

Just pick and choose so there are significantly more extreme temperatures that are hi there are significantly more wildfires and floods around the world report on we pick the ones that are going to be most impactful to arad it says here in the UK particularly this one people had it up on the holidays wondering if they can go and sometimes you choose to go and cover them and fly from echoing.

Just saying I Bluetooth soundbar two years ago to look at the impacts of the climate temperature that we had exclusive figures to say that style barbers warming faster than anywhere else on planet Earth 6 times faster and I discuss with your team weather actually we should fly there.

Can I just give that fat give me information from the Studio with grass I chatted to the Christ also to look at what was happening in the frozen parts of the world and treating and I knew the science and I love so it's my first of all most loved the age of 14 of the jet stream or whether we talk about it all the time but increasing I talk about climate change and

New extra passion I want to educate people about whether 70y trains educate people about climate change they know how bad it is and why and I felt climate change and I saw climate change and Svalbard glacier Retreat my own eyes.

I saw how the impact on the glaciers retreating I saw that wildlife aid I saw the impact on tourism.

Have you been going through the report and I felt it in my heart and I came back and it was really traumatic for me.

Can I have a 5-year old daughter who I know if she Returned where I was at my age probably the Landscape look completely different no polar bears.

No I said that's not being dramatic.

That's being factual and from the Financial Times I'd like to you in here.

We climate change Robert automatic processes that only become meaning for over decade is that a fundamentally incompatible with the way we approach to reporting news that yes process is happening over decades but people been banging on about climate change since the 90s.

We are decades on nothing has really know it.

Really now I think with the extreme Weather events, which actually coming back to rosses point he says you know there's always a flat or a heatwave summer in the world will actually there are more of them and that is due to climate change so I think I think that's a redundant argument and given to this is the media show as well.

I also wanted to put my pennies worth in about about Justin going because I I think if you have a climate editor for the BBC they serve audience by going and reporting on the ground and sometimes that means tough decisions have to be made in pregna.

You want him if it means he's going to get there when the story is happening you want him there on the ground reporting providing that analysis you know I think that's otherwise would be kind of changing the licence terms of your own analysis and when you are reporting the story about the story how much you and devoran to try and keep audience engaged and feel like they have some sort of Ages

That's such a good question because I think one of the one of the things.

I think I've realised it's of the decade writing about climate change is that even choose to cover it is seen in some quarters as political and I think that is a really important points will have the back of your mind just the fact that Justin is out there covering the heatwave will my some outlets as political so in terms of what I choose to do.

I think it's really important even I'm an opinion writer to ground it in fact but it is really hard for it, but if you're doing a news story about tourists fleeing wildfires that inherently is quite a dramatic scenario, so unless you are and an exceptionally untalented.

There is no way you can you can report that without sounding dramatic of radiologist Union you're listening to the media show on Radio 4.

We're talking about climate change and how you report it and what's up from the Daily Mail Order bring you.

You've called Justin Rowlatt the BBC prophet of Doom what did you mean a lot of what we on the BBC not just the BBC but otherwise is unnecessarily high hyperbole.

I'm just one or two more time to talk about the forest fire issue, because it is a very complex one that goes back to land use and let's not get into the outer middle Show please when were trying to go back coverage Canada Wildfire for the claim that hurricanes are becoming more common not true if you go and let I'm not a scientist and I'm comparing so I just late I've got to send away.

Just going to say do you think theodore's have a place in climate change reporting for me? I just report the facts the facts of the temperatures that have been broken Anthony the how much more likely that to be admitted that the current temperatures will be virtually impossible without climate change projections by 26th these temperatures in Canada in America in China will be happy to 25 years.

I just ate fact.

It is really hard to report the story because it is an inherently.

You know really worrying and frightening story when you talk to the scientist as I do a lot you realise how worried they are often are much more worried than they want to talk about in public exactly for the reason you give that don't want people to feel colour in a disempowered and terrified in the face of what's happening.

One of the most interesting pieces of work.

I've seen recently is from Christine Meyer from.ucl that talks about how you know we've been fixating on this 1.5 degree and you know maybe I roast a mistake and you know that's the kind of place.

I can imagine Ross writing and a bit because what it does what happens when we go past that which we might very well.

Do it does insulin-induced sense of Doom just quickly last word from you before we move on counterproductive counterproductive if you're going to frighten people and tell them that they've got 5 years to say that it's 2 years old.

Chinese movie on this come on your focus on gen Z what's your sense of how younger audiences view reporting on climate change so it's very important tool out the facts has been discussed, but the do need to leave people with an sense of some hope and what are the Solutions and then on Justin's point about we have to think more deeply about when do we send and why this all fits into the transparency notion you have two more transparent with you.

All is well.

Why you've chosen to go on just turning up and then reporting and also of course you can offer certain to do lots of work in the work you doing when I was we discussed this about the Albert principles of testing etc and explain that to your audience and I think if you get there.

You'll have a much more engaged conversation so accurate facts some Solutions which are in a bowl and durable and then be transparent about why you are where you are and we've got your hair because you've established this organisation the news movement connecting traditional news outlets with young consumers finding them where they are.

Take me to Daisy on social media research problems last week, but often found at tiktok is the most popular single new source for 1215 year olds no surprise there.

I've got one but also that only 32% of these users trustworthy, so that's get to doesn't seem quite healthy and a sense but they still probably getting the news from that source it is that worrying you know the audiences have changed their habits of kind and content is one of the types of content they consume and I think it's really important that traditional news organisations make a big shift where the audience is but it also needs new players to move fast to think deeply about the importance of journalism and without journalism in front of all audiences.

The world is the worst placed which part of the good Society people need to be informed about climate change about equity about all the subjects that young people want and if they don't engage with the way traditional news.

Issues for people like me 55 year old dad to then.

It's important that you think about different ways to engage and different ways to engage are driven by social media and by different tone storyteller.

I was out which is about being engaging with the vernacular of the platforms which is a much more friends finding out together method than headline and professor of news tails passive audience interested and I saw that you one of your projects is a partnership with Snapchat helping to train influences in the basics of journalism, because it I read the rotors in a few weeks ago, which said that younger people prefer to get their news from influences them from people like Justin Rowlatt and me and everyone else apart from yourself what you doing my Snapchat why what how do you train is influences? There's a new ecology of content creation and just like when I was young.

Looking to the next great column is like Caitlin Moran or Jay Rayner Danny Finkelstein now those people are creators and we need to connect with them in different ways to tell powerful stories of transactional relationship.

We want to empower creators to tell stories that are underpinned with rigorous journalism, because anybody in their room can say things which might be or might not be true what journalism does it give you a trusted stamp that rigour has gone into this that we have used the skills of journeys to be disciplined to give you the facts as I know but we don't want to lose the Creator brilliant so working with creators.

We help them understand the rigours of journalism one of the creators.

We worked with this is in snap us at this stage, but we know this is a very important thing many of the crate community Aventador piece of work on the Titan submarine which over million views on Snap and that was very helpful for that creator and Farage to having engaged relations.

You ok? I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop because that is always got time for thank you so much for everybody here for coming in and 2 for being on zoom at rest of you in the Studio thank you so much everyone for listening.