Read this: Ed Vaizey on Ofcom and Channel 4, BBC boost to Ukraine output

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That's what 7th item without being cheryl.com the BBC in funding story as actually gains for men in pounds from the government we asked if it's the journey.

It's a party in the end.

We provide order where there is chaos.

That's all coming out in this edition of the media podcast in this week's news, what's the industrial waste will be the next Ofcom chief orbits are Michael grade and if he isn't well.

This is very fast on the move is Bob shennan the former radio to be heading up BBC Studios audio division after a stint in the admin side of things as the BBC's managing director research release their infinite dial report in the USA found that it's really did change during the pandemic with the number of radios people moaning having dropped and the size of podcast listening also going down but he needs is facing further threats to it survive after it was reported that several large.

How old is the verge of the CEO Jonah peretti to shutdown the company's news organization and thus unrecorded 51 million loss as the publisher fights costly phone.

Cases that has affected the highest-paid exact though he met his 3.6 million last year up 50% No talk to you some of this.

Week's me the headlines if someone for him that kind of money is Millie in advance on her next book about Channel 4.

It's Media writer Maggie Brown hi Maggie hello.

I wish it was true.

Did you only if you saw the news that is retiring from from.lbc? No, I haven't seen that.

I'm afraid I'm out of the loop.

I've been completely different type of event or morning which has been consuming my time for the st.

Mary's Church which had a very moving service for generous under-fire, so I'm afraid that's what I've been thinking about to be honest The Horror of Ukraine tell us about that.

I heard there was a comment from some people in the field as well well at the service, but it's a fact that least he said and then a number of jaundice out there.

When they heard that the service was taking place and it was so funny high-powered, they they sent messages to the cannon at st.

Brides which of course is the traditional Fleet Street church and said how much they appreciated the fat, please pray for us in the appalling situation.

I think that surprise is coming back into its own for a time kids have been captured really kind of withdrew whenever I went to services and we seem to be rather pompous lawyers who had it you know it's become also Goldman Sachs all these people around it and son seems like the the churches completely taken back.

Its role as big as the journalist church, so that the other thing about this situation.

Is that it's gonna be the case that Public Service Broadcasting British Broadcasting is back and the BBC are we going to go onto BBC funding in a sec also during this is a really.

Alright audio head and Charles hi hello.

Love to be back seemed to be in the midst of another covid outbreak and I think you might have been hit as well.

I mean you spend a lot of time.

We do you notice arising coughs before the rest of us very good at editing out, but my voice is a bit husky at the moment.

So if anyone needs any sexy voice over the next two three days now is the time to get in there to pick up on BBC funding was Maggie mentioned that move at the broadcast is to receive over 4 million from the not getting money round it being taken away.

This is agreed to report to help me continue.

Its quest to offer independent impartial and accurate used to people in Ukraine and Russia maybe it's a bit of a change of tack from government does it just shows that we really are living interesting.

X x I'm in the BBC was never an organisation that should be picked up by any government.

Actually is broadcaster and in times of national crisis that has to step up to the plate which is exactly what it's doing.

I would Addison an addendum that all of the broadcast Media in the UK are doing very well on stories and news coverage and they're incredibly brave, but the fact is that the BBC has this in-depth reporting it believes in being on the ground as much as it can and what small it can to some extent fulfil that because it has a world service done that has to be trained and drained drained and no the territory and also speak the languages, so as I watch it.

You've had a coming together of two of the great public service strands of the BBC you have the the BBC News current affairs and the big heavy weights coming in and the and the chorus to know how to put together a story for example.

They pulled together people who cleared for as it work on that sounds but also had to tell us the Andrew Harding as a key example of this coming up from South Africa

There's another one at the same time they also have this world service and I Audley everybody's been thinking that the BBC's been been destroyed by having to cut back and cut back and put these two services to get here.

They seem to have put the two wings together and I think they're doing a fantastic job and what has happened of course is that the value of trusted news trusted reporting boots on the ground bravery you no stamina pleased to set standing there night after night with you know what's going on around all of this.

Just makes it before the other presenters as well.

They have done a very very good job plus all of the background stuff as well.

So of course the BBC is found to be back in fashion, and I think that the journalist and I go to my grave saying I hit the genus of actually save the BBC by providing such evidence of good proper consistent as far as they can do it in partial reporting and make.

Clear two people at home.

I'm in the ratings of course.

They're not going to be the same as the night that war breaks out a month later, but they are they are doing very well in the rating and they're doing what they supposed to do so I think the BBC is on fast safe for ground then.

It was even 2 or 3 months ago and doors were saying this will be the last licence we report that combination oven use but also emotion and you explain the situation that she's in and saw that and explaining the Dome that was find her.

What's the role of radio in a time of War II what what can people get to the wireless, then they can't get through tiktok or or the telly in relation to this funding a lot of it is about making sure you still get signal and coverage in two places because if there's more going on infrastructure goes down and not only due to things being bombed in pound being there but also signal jamming and all that.

Takes place, so I think some of this funding at there is saying is going to be helping to make sure that journalist the broadcasting from a place of safety and there will be some technical infrastructure that goes on and a colleagues when I get the BBC who worked in World Service transmission had very interesting stories to tell around how they bounce signals around hostile countries to be able to still broadcasting and I've had experience of working in hostile environments as well where in the past people have had to leave the country and broadcast in because there were no longer allowed to be in that save space.

I mean radio of does all the things that we know and love it for the pictures can often be more harrowing and I've certainly been well enjoying not quite the right word but appreciating Ukraine cost that the BBC is able to spin up very very quickly and there have been some people that some stories their families that they've been following you seen escaping or have been speaking.

In talking about having to hide in the bathrooms as Explosions happen all around them, so it's very powerful.

I mean obviously we've been paid in the BBC I think I ITV news in very well, but particularly have just been thinking especially about the Ukrainian service and and the Russian service journalists especially Ukrainian service journalist to having to go on on things that are really person affecting them and I just wanted to just raise the fact that we all need to be a lot more aware of trauma and secondary trauma especially in reporting Jobs and how how badly affecting things can be for journalists and for technical staff who are reporting on stories where they do have a personal link and it's that kind of trauma that happens when the bad thing didn't happen to you, but you know enough of the detail that you can imagine 100 different versions of it and so I just encourage people if they are.

Elected to go and talk to people there's a really great book called that trauma reporting for journalists that just talk to your colleagues about it because of the more that we can talk about the fact that this is a real side effect of reporting the store and then it's not wrong or bad for you to be feeling awful the better absolutely we caught up with Michael Holmes from CNN a couple of episodes ago.

He talked about his past reporting as well and you know he won't be all the names all the people who was with who you weren't so lucky as he was was trying to communicate using information people and that trust the radio had it is an important.

Obviously the people that look after radio regulation the UK that all media regulation is Ofcom in one of those muted to be in life for the biggest Ofcom call the battle of the Lord's giving him out of Tory peers in the Running right now, you'll be fine.

It would be a bit of a poisoned chalice so following to I recorded this week.

I started off by asking him about his application to be chair of Ofcom two interviews and I mean we're recording this on the 22nd of March I keep hearing the rumour that the announcement is imminent.

I said he don't think it's going to be me I don't quite know why my body to be turned off you never quite know what's going to happen, but I'm not expecting a call anytime.

I would have loved to have done without to weirdly to the Croydon about this year.

I love being a minister.

I loved the ability to take action and big town of Ofcom is I don't want to frighten the horses in case I do become chair.

It is a bit like being in this.

You can help shape the agenda of very very important regulator with an incredible agenda regulating the BBC regulating channel for regulating platforms coming down the line and I'm very brilliant job recruiting hundreds of people to do it.

What could be more excited but also where do I get off on things like spectrum strategy broadband coverage important issues at the post office post offices in there as well really good point of people always forget about the post office for the Royal Mail to be more accurate.

What was looking at other thing to mention there a Channel 4 will probably a waiting list of government response on the future of Channel 4 Nadine dorries seems pretty keen to change its ownership structure away for the government you around the dcms when this has been knocked away a couple of times, but they can have really changed it again all goes well.

I'm not sure on the dean is that keen I think she alright?

In miraculous, I think she's very open-minded.

I don't think she came up.

I'm going to point is a perfectly legitimate things to say in the 21st Century do we need a broadcast it is effectively owned by the government even though the government obviously doesn't pay for your subsidise.

It is paid for by advertising do we genuinely need the government you know you look at the Channel 4 board all of the great people but this is government appointments imagine if it was a private media company was kind of people to their bored.

They got a fantastic chief.

Exec Alex mum, but you know if you had a channel for the private sector.

Would it be actually more innovative than more free to do what it needs it if it's owned by government you know it's moved to Leeds which is probably a good thing but it did serve the best of the government know whether they private broadcasting works under these questions to ask you should have a plan that should say.

Brexit if we gonna be privatised these are the rights of people as it were all organisations that could Channel 4 to ensure that we flourish in the future and the government still has backstops in terms of Regular Show the thing that I look at no appetisers and no production companies think this is a good idea.

You nobody actually in the sector except for low-grade who maybe he's got his eye on buying it is particularly a shift people know it's a bit strange, but it's work really what is highly likely to be the next couldn't buy even if he wanted but I would say to you mate, but one things.

I've always covered against the culture minister is there is groupthink the media industry and the conference he loves to colour attack Tories and say they also terrible evil philistines any of

Industry, I've come across and you just go with the status Quo so of course.

They all hate the idea of changing Channel 4 cos they're all conservative with a small see going back without wishing to know how many people to make our factories what I like about Thatcher when she was exactly the sort of person who would ask these questions.

We may come out the other side it may well, be here.

We didn't privatise Channel 4 in 2015 because it wasn't worth the hassle, but it may be now with an 80 seat majority it it's worth the hassle of that can be done.

It is not even being done to lessen the national debt because it will be around in her on that.

I just to give Channel 4 new and different future you obviously a media operator yourself now with your own podcast.

Do you think doing those sorts of things helps you understand the sector better so I have a wonderful letter, which I started when I was opposition to parliamentary question to James Purnell asking who had attended Tony Blair's farewell speech to the Arts and I got my office to.

Email address is still going it must be 15 years now.

We have 9000 subscribers, so really successful properties should be about 900000 by now, but anyway people do seem to like it and I Do This podcast the Tech podcast with the fur called lime tree and a culture podcast with the country.

I never listen to podcasts.

I really enjoy recorded as I'm enjoying my podcast with you my friend reminds me of that we meet some really hilarious people on that podcast do I love talking to you and see me with the top one? You know I take deep dives into she's I find bn26 I love doing well.

I never listen up.

There's something going on with me and audio.

You know don't put in headphones and listen to music on the Tube or I downloaded audible in thought I'd listened to a book on the Tube every day and I never

I don't like things that changed to me earlier this week in the full interview we get interviews on Channel 4 and some juicy detail on the enquiry.

He and his fellow Lords and conducting on the BBC licence fee and that 70 patreon we have a package for you or Wetherspoon or high-flying exact.

Just had over to patreon.com / Media pod for the fourth half hour interview There's a leak in the show notes you want to easily click on it Maggie what do you make on the Race for the Ofcom chair Media sport and digital committee who just says it's been a ridiculous fast it has been Estrada of two years to years trying to come up with a chairman of Ofcom

By any standards I mean bizarre really it's never happened.

It will be the 5th chairman.

They have really made a dinner of the the real problem was that the Conservatives conservative government when they came they did not want to have another day sort of time Chatham and they wanted to or a person they wanted someone of their own their own brand and of course I want to fold a cut and fold a failed the interview test where they have an independent assessor and so they we did the interview process and they still came up with nobody because they could have decided he had enough of being interviewed by with the big and he declined it.

So they've landed up with a choice between somebody nobody's ever heard of and Michael grade.

On one side and obviously got all the showbiz connections and in some ways he takes boxes and that he has changed everything that you possibly charity the BBC his friends with Channel 4 when he actually did it's a great service by setting up the advertising side which actually allowed it to build its own Headquarters and become independent and of course and he chaired the ITV company and was its chief executive not successfully and since then has resumed really his view that the BBC channel 4 should be sold off that you don't need to public service broadcasters well, what can I say? I mean? I think it's good to have a chat.

I'm beginning to wonder if they have any power to be because of Connor's tic to long for 2 years and the thing that that needs settling on the broadcasting right now is who's going to church Channel 4 orderly, so he does come in at.

When his hugely influential but they have managed to recruit for non-executive directors who include people who really do know about forecast including Dawn Airey who is Channel 5? What do I think well? I kind of I think he probably will get hurt.

He does know that the media business is really complicated is not what I record a detailed man.

So it could be that the actual people working beneath him who appear to be able to make decisions on a whole wide range of areas and topics including Postal Services you know any apart from all of the communication site it could be that he'll be detached enough to know when to stand back, but it does leave the question Channel 4 course and its ownership open although again.

I go back to my view on the BBC channel four isn't the BBC but nonetheless.

Play useful broadcaster with a more youthful profile and everybody else it does have a very storwood news at 7, it does have a good reputation for independent independent current events and a huge number of fans.

I independent TV production people who like it just the way it is so it's going to be a question of whether the people who think he will arguments to survive it needs to a big brother.

It needs to be a margarita, then it will be strong and it will be able to do more drama and comedy and all the scriptures stuff, but I don't think it's completely given thing that that he will go ahead with privatisation right at this moment in time when the media is in such a state of Kinder require.

You know it's a required thing now to have proper news and respectable people making it and so we know what we've got the Channel 4 when I spoke to her.

Push back to him and said but no one in the production sector and known in the advertising sector wants to privatise Channel 4 that they're quite happy how it is and he suggested that the media sector is really conservative with a small c and just focus on the status Quo with that is the same as to where he's coming from one that obviously he's had a lot of dealings with the different types of Media folk and we all tend to be in our little silos.

Don't be so I suppose if he's seeing a different part of the media industry from the one that we all hang out in I'm not convinced that we're all conservative with a small supposed to be talking about management or production stuff because there's probably quite a difference in and have those are approaching things.

I would say that most production staff in the country have no idea who is much less ok? We'll be back with Mum meeting you after this.

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It's sold something specialist titles a few weeks back as well as the European little while ago.

Play from the deal is a good one for them.

Well.

I think it's very sad really it's I think it's an example of one of those once robust and collected original newspaper groups who had a very good rooted existence in one of the most prosperous and can a self-contained areas of the UK I eat, East Anglia Hospice for farming not necessary for everybody else, but they have I mean if you if you visit Norfolk at all when you get to Norwich you do realise the sensible that this is a place with its own sort of sense of culture and being from the Norman Cathedral to the university to everything else and of course it's very diverse, but it is I mean when you see an organisation which has magazines you know canal boats and chicken raising and and smallholdings you know that that's just one wing of their operations YouTube

Did have a place, but it has been terrible managed it's been passed from hand to mouth that there's clearly been a lack of understanding of had to a newspaper print based businesses to this entirely new world where you don't necessarily sacrifice your shop front as national newspapers.

You do actually have to work a lot harder at holding onto your position in a very competitive market and this is completely Fell to do most the magazine branches that have gone sold the West Country operations and now they are going into what will become the second largest group in in the country after reach is it seems to be the way the newspaper industry is going a one thing that does interest me is the fact that the new European has been sliced off of this and it has some very he might say.

Heavyweight investors who I don't know if they are to business, but you've got Mark Thompson and who was Steve I've got some of BBC director-general and then running times who's come back to sort of I think that he has some business nice and eyeliner barber the editor of the Financial Times who is clearly also pro-european.

I think you're looking for the next sort of big project in media ego and desire to have titles has always been a bit of the media and perhaps we just we just seen that with the European and I'm going to play with with something else.

Is it going to change the newsquest actually will it rain in fig 8 that that patch I don't think it will be in fig 8 it.

I think it will just be standing by to see what happens in terms of job cuts there is

How much overlap between the areas that newsquest currently has and the titles that they bought so for papers like the EDP Eastern Daily Press and which is the one that made me covers Norfolk that fingers crossed should mean that that publication is ok.

I'm getting that we haven't heard anything about job cuts yet, but I'm getting there will be some back and sort of admin roles that that disappear it's all is worrying when there's a threat to two jobs in Media in regional areas that the Eastern region is constantly overlooked we used to have quite a strong offer in Norwich because Anglia Television was a really big deal and there's still a little bit of it here the BBC region headquarters assisted in Norwich and receive had we've had some newspaper outfit here since 1845.

So it's always really concerning when there are few options in an original like this for people to have a media career and the

The attention is always on London or if it's not London it's Manchester and the rest of the country gets ignored with my if my little Cleveleys Eastern region of the week.

Is there seem to do really well, yeah, it's kind of their website offer is terrible.

You know the layout and the design of it.

They haven't really got the hang of how to do that.

There are still quite a weekly titles in in local areas that are not what they were you know we don't have local journalist here.

They're just compendiums of what's been in the EDP and but printed in two doors are not everyone gets one so it will be interesting to see if those last obviously that will have knock-on effects.

I'm involved with the local talking newspapers so most of the material comes from the local free sheet so we'll see that kind of stuff survives in the future, but I suppose at the moment I mostly worried for for people's jobs and to make sure that they still have one to go to and also was interesting the rumours are that it was only.

10 million lb it doesn't really seem like that much at all in some markets have invested in local news open up digital operations in new areas with muse questioning actually consolidation you could I be the other way is the saviour some of these and the without connection to you know a big HQ and technology and scale they would disappear faster depends what they doing with that knowledge of having a network of local journalists and are they making best use of that information on making sure that stories are available nationally making use of those resources because I think that has been feeling a lot of regional areas including the BBC actually that they don't recognise they have good local you can tell stories and that they don't make use the nationally so it's interesting as newsquest is still vary regionally based.

So it's not like they now.

Got a network Adonis feeding international publications that would be very that I've been to.

See what happens when I've seen to talk to people work for reach what I found and I think it's really sad is that they seem to discard often really experienced older John that's who literally know everything about the area.

I keep hearing that over and over again certainly in in the northwest and that is is a loss of both contacts and continuity and of course if people are joining in those areas does the very people that you learn the job off if you want to know about your own and you're actually a newcomer to it and I've had this repeatedly and I think there's a great deal of truth and what and says and so we have seen this complete really undermining of what we might call proper local journalism and it is bizarre.

That's happening at the point when were also concerned about levelling up and we're all supposed to be looking outside of the regions and understanding what the real concerns are people you know.

Nearest said I'm not particularly totally right about the denuding of the East Anglia and Norfolk and Norwich of ITV Studios which used to make all sorts of Interest network-wide programming and when you go then you'll see if you can see the remnants of the Empires and you think that this is really not not right ok want to keep an eye on over 3 months old of the media quiz this week.

It's entitled order order.

I have three Media law based stories for you, but I've mixed up the words you want and all the mess and tell me what the story is so three rounds buzzing with your name if you know the answer so um you say an and Maggie will say remember to buzz in right.

Let's play order order question number one fight protect Chris mullane, Birmingham winds pub bombings to source.

Anne Anne this was the story about the journalist Chris mullane, who uncovered a lot of stuff that meant the Birmingham six afraid because they were wrongfully convicted and as part of the investigation the one of the people who actually did the bombing told him what really happened and he's kept that sort of secret and he has managed to keep that so secret so it's just won a case to say that that that journalist sources should be kept secret and he's allowed to keep that confidential and that the fact that he knows who did it is not something to anybody absolutely correct 1.2 you Maggie I mean every few years.

There's a threat to journalist sources will this keep the police quiet for a bit longer, but I think it should have you can't have real proper investigative journalism, if I'm really really difficult areas where there is clearly a conflict of interest but I think we all know.

You know now that the good Society and in the right order it would eventually I'm short come out but we can't expect a journalist go back on a promise like that which one means somebody being rightly or wrongly convicted because he wanted to make sure people need the truth.

I mean I I stand with the ok question number 2 licence channel Ofcom broadcast revokes UK RT Maddie I think that was a belief that it was putting up propaganda.

That's the truth of it.

I mean I'm actually I'm slightly divided on this because it has such a small audience and secondly I didn't feel frightened of anything.

He says because I would be looking at it if I chose to you and thinking.

Oh, so that's what they're doing and I mean it's sad really that that that that Rush

The side of the euro news broadcast and I've been watching a lot of your own use to get the slightly different flavour and you know that that was slightly later than the BBC and all the rest of it and I'm a little bit divided on it but on the other hand.

I'm not going to go to you.

No more of it.

This is Marty's UK broadcast licence to the clearing the hole is not a fit and proper person to air in the UK and it's saying there's always lots of tit-for-tat responses should have covered just let it go at you turned it off have they didn't need to get rid of its licence.

Did they I suppose it makes Ofcom look like it's doing something I mean most of the most of the things that off come seems to do phone broadcast broadcast here, so if it's the pattern.

I think I haven't really been watching ert2 kind of be able to comment on whether or not they were and fit and proper person's but I think.

the the laws changed in Russia to say that they were no longer allowed to to criticise and they weren't allowed to call the war the war than that was probably the Tipping Point that made it almost impossible for them to come under UK broadcast laws, that's probably recent your chance to be Ofcom shared access employment guardian challenge wins legal tribunal over papers and and

This was the case where the garden wanted to have access to some documents that were in an employment Tribunal bundle and the initial judge said you can't have those cos it's too much hassle because someone will have to I don't know photocopy 700 things in attach it to a carrier pigeon or whatever they used to do back in the days when that person but first a lawyer and won the case because they're like that's not a proper reason for us not have access to sings that should be in the public domain so there's no got access to the documents from a tribunal case involving financial case I think it was so useful for them to waterpik through the documents for journalistic purposes correct Another Point of View which makes you the winner of the quiz and because he described it there.

I will attach the prize to a carrier pigeon and send it over to you.

So keep an eye out in East Anglia for that.

Thank you.

That's how we normally do messages around here so

That's a day to make it brown and an Charles Maggie where can people keep up with what you're writing about.

I'm not eating very much so if anybody wants me to write something I suppose I could I'm I'm I'm doing I am doing things but it's more like panels.

I mean the real problem.

Is that you have to think much more than your right because it's not the same as writing articles, but if anybody wants me to write something for them.

Otherwise I should just go on being a sort of free agent excellent well, if you want to try some if you get in touch and we'll take 10% and where can people turn to you for more inside my TV that's a double n a r l e s TV and I'm at Sparky and see on Twitter and you can find me on LinkedIn as a thank you both.

Thank you for saying till the end if you're enjoying the show remember you.

To cover the media news each week by Jay one of two things first of all we would very much like you to become a patron of the show really does help us support the production of the program.

We do is sign up at patreon.com media and there's lots of different levels that you can support based on circumstances and also would love you to tell us what you like about the show or indeed what you'd like to see a few more off.

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