Read this: John Whittingdale on Channel 4, BBC cuts... and a media policy rundown

celebrate summer with Mamma Mia take it's funny that all around the world on stage in London that timer songs as ABBA

it's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know you get a love it.

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I'm on the special diet interview with Conservative MP and former culture minister John whittingdale, the government's next stop broadcasting white paper in cleaner controversial campaign to privatise Channel 4.

What's on the agenda after BBC latest country look at what other changes may be a head does the government kicks off its mid charter review plus a rundown of the media policy in the pipeline.

I'll set to share the you take Media industry in the coming years and that's all coming up in the sea fishing podcast got special edition of the show for you taking stock of the future of the UK media landscape reflecting on the big Debate and policy matters impacting Media owners big and small during the show is the Right Honourable John whittingdale MP John you've recently celebrated 30 years of being a member of parliament first of all congratulations, but a x b involved in the media or media policy.

What leads you to the area have focused on it right back.

1986 when I first wrote a Pamphlet called new policies for the media which years old but the reasons were several firstly watching or listening that I could see that it was an area were even back in the late.

90s you can you had a taste of what was to come with the digital Revolution and the fact that we will get the move away from a very limited number of television channels are very clunky recording formats and the internet was in its infancy, but clearly was going to revolutionise stop a lot of challenges for policy makers, so I thought it would be very interesting area to get involved in and of course.

It's also highly political.

Let me go very powerful.

Radio time worrying about ownership content etc.

So it was an area, which I enjoyed I was interested in a lot was happening and it was very political.

We went into parliament jobs the works a lot with conservative central office had your boss's work influenced some of your thoughts as well a bit.

I'm in town called the Department of trade and Industry which was a huge department but I was a bit involved in telecoms, and he said It's Beginning to the Digital revolution I can remember the reluctance of steam to abandon, you remember that you wanted to go online and you were lucky if you've got half a megabit.

So there was some interest politically that but also cause I then went home.

I worked for Margaret Thatcher he had strong views about the media and she was quite critical sometimes.

It was very playing that.

Going to be politically ambiguous you always another say a lot was happening around it was she created the Channel 4 which is in the news at the moment.

I have good for the TV sector as a whole but obviously a slightly new world now.

Well.

You have to remember when Channel 4 was created the world was very different it was as the name suggests TV channel were only two BBC One ITV travel in existence and also the Independent production sector in Britain didn't exist so Channel 4 was created to provide an alternative kind of programming which you can find anywhere else and also to encourage the growth of The Independent Productions Channel 4 obviously didn't make it off you move on what 30 years and it is completely different time reserve.

I mean it's not more than 30.

Is it 40 but there is a huge range of?

The two objectives which tower was set up to deliver, I think it has done very successfully now Channel 4 my concern that channel 4 is model which was highly dependant on advertising has no other form of income and the advertising market is fragmented in firstly because more more is moving online media on developing digital outlets with the advertising but and a Google and Facebook and the others are taking a huge.

Chunk of advertising market the market is also splintering you got many more choices available which means inevitably audience size to get a fall potentially we have the possibility of advertising coming onto Netflix onto Disney it mean if your on advertise their the choice you have weird place your ad is all the greater and all that means the likelihood is that the cost will decline in revenue?

Channel 4 and Channel 4 is doing reasonably well at the moment the government has a responsibility to look to the future and my concern and it's one which department currently as articulated is the Emma longer-term this model is going to come and break creasing pressure will be caused the government intervention and actually if we are back now.

We can sustain Channel 4 by giving it private ownership, which will give access to Capital to invest and to grow and therefore ID if you like by looking at privatisation Now play preemptive measure to avoid what I suspect are inevitably going to be challenges in the future if it remains a publicly-owned and solely advertising dependant channel is doing particularly well at the moment.

It does well in advertising is strong in the market represents are the channels to.

Profitable it continues to be successful and deliver it public purposes.

I mean the government's making a guess that it won't be in a great place in the advertising market in 10 time if you speak to people at Channel 4 on the media companies in media agencies.

They wouldn't necessarily agree with that analysis degree Michael Michael Craig Lewis one of the most experienced people in broadcasting that I now is very strongly supportive Enders are an extremely professional Media analysts also believe the right time to look at privatisation.

So there are a number of people never has of Lords communications committee report said they weren't necessarily persuaded I did see that the where arguments in favour and that it was right to look at those things now, so I'm in the number of people had said that they think it's the right thing to do.

Please agree with the privatisation to the people actually buy advertising now.

I like you too in 5 to 10 years time.

They're all pushing for the status Quo don't they know what they're talking about.

I think their concerns Relate in particular to who might own Channel 4 and obviously they have anxiety is Ran competition and if it were to become in the grip of a smaller number of players.

That is something which raises competition is I am in at the moment.

There is a vast range of possible.

I think depending on who emoji is it might her race competition concerns in which case I would expect for the competition and markets authority to look at it so I've listened to the advertising they're not saying they're completely against Channel 4 privatisation what we are saying is that they are anxious about the consequences should the sales business Channel 4?

Come under the control of one of the other sales business in other words for the market to diminish legitimate concern which we would need to look at through the competition authority the issue is whether the changes Channel 4 kind of the Goose that laid the golden egg there at the moment.

It's probable that delivers public value if it is acquired by NEC operator I mean that's going to be in solidation.

Play that's likely to reduce ownership in the marketplace.

It will be surprised it for someone need to come into the market wouldn't it like it is likely to go to an existing TV player.

I'm not getting any of it.

I do a lot wide range of different businesses that may well be interested.

You could well have an existing UK broadcaster.

You could have an overseas broadcaster.

You could have somebody who is not in the broadcasting business at the moment turn to the government when we get to that point will need to look at them the only thing.

I mean Channel 4 like all the media companies came under huge pressure during the covid pandemic.

I was very involved to trying to support media companies at a time when advertising literally drop for the floor because of the covid pandemic, what channel 4 did which was sensible was too dramatic cost Space Program budget by think about 140 million in figures for The Third Kind of order so the fact that they emerge profitable was because they cut costs by more than their revenue fell which you can say it was good management and it wasn't very nice since then with the bounce back following the end of coated at the advertising market by chair the session discussing this two weeks ago has recovered extreme.

I mean more than I think most people expect it to advertising is healthy, but the concern is North about the Channel 4 is going to remain profitable this next year or one after it is a bad long-term trans where you are going to get more and more providers and content and we've already got streaming services like Netflix Amazon like Disneyland apple.

We got more coming along and as I say if Netflix and Disney decide that they are going to take out the charger testing they will then a game that means that the amount of advertised time available is going to hugely increased which is bad to have a Dan wood effect on the amount that advertises have to pay for the government to be terrible for the channel therefore.

We want to do something but not entirely driven by this but parties ideological isn't that you some of people in your party field at Channel 4 has been against them and have been arguing strongly for a change.

Some people take her emotional conservative view of being a successful day long needs to be in the public purse in the market.

I look at the privatisation of the Conservative governments have carried out over the last 20 years and generally in my view those businesses have performed much in the private sector that they did when they were in the public sector.

I am I suppose you can call it ideological but I do take the view that the state needs wearing things that the state has to own a business Will Survive and probably do much better in the private sector that in itself is a reason fulbright dieting it and I think Channel 4 falls into that category.

You money it generates public value to pretty well liked in the response to the dcms consultation overwhelming support if you could have take out the kind of campaigning groups.

We used to politically organised you remove that sort of 80% of responses were supported with Channel 4 that you know me is the public there's not a lot of value for me which Channel 4 going into the private sexual being own bike on Sky or iTV I mean one of the things which I hope you'll see is the programs but if you have an owner that has the resources to invest in programme contacting and you will know that the costs of TV production or rising very very rapidly Channel 4 is a minute and it will struggle to raise the resources to make very high quality program.

I would have to say that to know with few exceptions and there are a few really excellent Channel 4 programmes with an awful.

Lot of it.

I find it slightly difficult see how it meets the definition of Public Service Broadcasting as a lot of the American import of a lot of late.

Every now and again it comes up with a nugget and is widely praised for it and Channel 4 news.

I think it's an important contributor that you can preserve the best channel 4 and hopefully support them with more investment from the private sector and therefore as a result I think you and anybody else to watch a chance.

You could say about Channel 5 your Channel 5 bought a public broadcaster off of Daily Express group is an excellent example of how a channel can benefit from a line that is prepared to invest and without wishing to be to read about a previous owners frankly Channel 5 wasn't very good if he has been transformed advice and even with a lot of people would think was particularly British Yorkshire farmer etc programs which a lot of people would see is British programme.

A very good job of providing distinctive programming not entirely sure it provides really distinctive program, and I think it's been more successful than that has been in the past two ratings are still lower than for even when you can buy MTV Nickelodeon Comedy Central other vicon properties it punches below.

What what channel 4 does in the ad market as it represents the same channels and others it's not as if the introduction of it has suddenly transformed as a network.

I'm not entirely convinced the if someone swiped into the same thing for Channel 4 in Channel 4 has a remit requiring it he and to appeal to audiences the plantation for lenticular has been quite good at it's not quite sure what time between audience is not exclusively, but actually older audiences.

I used to have a government to know regular conversations of the chief executive of Channel 5 just so I did with all the other.

What channel is doing well and has made a lot of investment and has not been that long in charge of Channel 5 and so next time if you invest in a channel before you see the benefits of it, but I think there's are coming through the chance to prove Channel 4 in an earlier incarnation of the government's media policy and that was a maintenance used to go forward with why not then but why now is it? There's a great Tory majority and you can't rush these things through now isn't it? Just easier.

It's in that I think that the government when I take steak in 2015-16 could see the arguments as widely accepted and those who previously were supposed to have now come round and all supporting from PlayStation it is a political process requires legislation to be approved by both Houses of Parliament

2015-16 the government majority in parliament and there was a lot of other highly controversial legislation going through the camera.

I could do with that another battle on my hands and then of Lords and I think it might be interesting for you to look at the to report produced by the House of Lords communications committee 2015-16.

They produce very hostile report totally opposed the most recent has Lords report is much more objective is not totally and support but nor is he totally rejecting and I actually I think it raises some good points which I'm sure you will want to address a doctor in a new one is just come out.

What's it like trying to Helm that everyone's got a point of view on what should go in a broadcasting bill.

Had had

That works well, that's a good question and it's because the first thing you have to do is develop a white paper in your apartment and we had a lot of competing priorities.

What's emerge from a white paper was obviously the biggest issue is Channel 4 we have been subject to lobbying from particular ITV4 a very on the time around Providence Providence but ITV4 there with the franchise coming up soon for a new Providence is a very big issue and the government has said he could do something my problems for years now.

Just haven't been able to do it.

So that was a priority there was then a view tickly which state held that the streaming services will not subject to any kind of regulation as opposed to the quite detailed regulation on the public service broadcaster saver needed to be minimum standards.

On the fourth platforms of the white paper and similar provenance for radio the government produced an audio review quite recently which flag does that potentially the public service broadcasters again to find that they may not have the same prominence on Smart TV sets unless we legislate to require them to do so that same challenge could happen on radio because more and more people are listening to Radio using Smart speakers and radio sector want to have the same kind of provenance requirements that something the government agreed was desirable, but it didn't fit into the white paper.

I think will be pressure to try and include it but I also know that the government and I'm talking about the game of the whole dcms alone as

5 bills in the Queen's Speech I'm very important bills and you gave for a process where you have to compete against other departments the space and save a pressure is always will do you really need to do that can't you achieve that either by different means maybe secondary legislation on could not wait until the other day so I think to get a Media bill and have included it as much.

They have he's actually quite an achievement by the government make it through the whole to get some of those bills on the table two events influence the government still has a majority mods and cons of 80 or so and therefore the chances of the government falling early as pattern printing Surrey

Majority, I think they're asleep control.

I think the chances of continue and even if the prime minister didn't continue that doesn't mean you can continue and you know I would expect that the want to continue with the Media bill Come What May so I mean you can never be certain of any of these but I think most chances are it will go through because I think we're probably still possibly even 2 years away from the general election be talking about that about radio.

You are absolutely right one of the issues is how people will discover public radio licence radio both commercial community and traditional public service trying to get British make on turn on those home screens if broadcasters gets the disaggregated that they can still reach audiences in the white paper to we will have some discussions.

Audio, do you think there is a chance for those prominence rules to shift4 Radio as the bill is codified myself because I think it is important this time pressure on legislative time and it maybe that's why it wasn't included but I talked to the radio centre for instance that represents the commercial radio broadcasters and they are very hard for it to be included even though you've seen the white paper but the bill obviously still be published and then bills can be amended.

They can be added to that they go through so long way to go and see if I wanted to listen to my community Radio station in my constituency.

I had to be sitting in Essex where is now I can be in London or I could be in.

I don't know and I could say to my smart speaker play my local community stations.

But it does mean that fighting through the noise and remaining visible is a great well done.

There's a lot more to talk about including the BBC I will do they celebrate summer with Mamma Mia take it it's all around the world and where better to see it then on stage in London where it all began featuring that timer songs as ABBA

It's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know you love it and you suck around MP John whittingdale.

Still here lots more to come today V made some announcements last week about paving the way to a digital future.

Did you catch his comments in the BBC's changes to think his fuse and his name is a pretty good select few years.

Well.

I mean I I had many conversations with him as we were discussing the level of the licence fee settlement in actual fact the government tonight's match the one which I and all the time and have been talking to him about you know last year so not the morning.

I bet he was also very clear that it.

Be quite challenging for the BBC Strictly now with the two year threes at a time when production costs going up and he said he would need to make good decisions.

I think the that is the way we live in times when the cost of living is a real issue for many people and to expect them to pay more of the TV licence was a reasonable.

I think the decision was the one but I accept but the BBC will have to make savings how they find the savings is entirely for the BBC with decisions to make some channel solid digital is perhaps a reflection of the part rent.

Where are going in in any case although obviously it's important that the BBC remains as a linear broadcaster and it's services for as long as people want to watch TV on a wild night might have one or two arguments over precisely how they're doing so in the main accept that bloody.

Vanessa TN trainers probably identify the right areas and which savings can be made you a big music fan you going to miss all that music program on a linear BBC4 also a regular view on digital stations on iPlayer so I can still find it many different services that I mean Sky Arts for instance the public service broadcaster, but he's never left now free to wear her and offers a range of contact which I think is comparable to public service channel, so it's not as if it's going to disappear.

Are you talked a bit about the licence fee and you've you being a sort of smaller call licence fee for sort of super service content and then maybe extra for sort of entertainment comedy more maybe optional content is that still of you that you have in a long-term the licence fees going to be difficult.

Because they're already generations of younger people saying I didn't watch the BBC I certainly don't watch linear television.

Can I play they watch almost exclusively on video on demand programming they might see the BBC but would they go on paying £160 a year on the off chance that they might want to watch BBC program so I think the government is right to say that the days of licence to be a numbered on the other hand if you want to find alternatives to Die Many Times subscription is one alternative but you can only literally subscription when we have moved towards an anti On Demand IPv6 you have Freeview and still has holes but rely on Freeview you can't have subscription.

So there will come a day when the Freeview is no longer the

Distributing television content and we might even reach the point where it will be switched off and that's the moment when subscription becomes a realistic possibility, but it might hear it's probably a bit greatest talk to somebody other bills that have been mentioned first up.

I guess you got the online safety Bill and the jeans are we supposed to do a rap on tiktok over the weekend explaining the have you if you talk on tiktok yet? Have you done any of your own wrapping? I haven't but I have to say it was brave at the deed.

I'm not going to follow her in that.

I thought a rhyming was pretty good.

She got quite a lot of grief.

I thought it went quite well.

I'm not entirely sure it's going to reach the right audience as I say politicians do need to use whatever medium is likely to get the message across and I would agree with you.

I thought actually in terms of delivery.

What is my complicated message and hairstyle quite well, but she did.

Mulberry for a long time I mean sort of 2008a real Focus but I think before them to was actually report by the selectivity when I was the chair of the committee.

So yes, I'm calling for action in this area for 14 years old.

It's changed that time the report was released in 2008 identified some harmful content, but it's become a much wider problem and we didn't have Twitter as universe penetration of smart mobile phones from people as much as that has increased.

I think governments have realised that this is a great I welcome a fight with the bill has finally appeared.

I was quite involved in the early stages of discussion of it.

It has tended to grow over time or more has been added to it.

Advising you came on the settee described as a bit of a christmas tree bill in everybody's hanging their balls on it.

Is there a danger that it will sort of fall apart.

I won't do its job because it to the way down by all of these expectations various measures were originally it was only going to be a bad content which was defined as that which was psychologically damaging inciting violence that the government a lot of pressure to include fraud is very serious issue, but that's a crime and extending a bill into an area.

Which was originally intended to cover but it now will cover fraud.

It's also going to have provisions for age verification for the different aspect to what was originally intended so

Has 21 things very often happens is Bill go through Parliament still further because particularly in the House of Lords of the government doesn't have majority of Lords quite often tack things onto it and I do think that's a danger because every time you back something onto the bill.

It's another obligation another burden on the platforms and the government of the same time as rightly wanting to act against harmful content but also has an ambition to grow the technology sector to make the UK very attractive place to invest if you are a digital technology company and you need to make sure you're not creating an environment which base is stolen drive them to go elsewhere another connected to that is the data reform bill a complex one.

It's basically creating a sort of task force to look at the particular.

Companies me folks on the large company data is that the entire of the UK's data protection laws were written in Brussels they are derived either directly through gdpr that applies in British law or through the data protection act which basically into the existing framework of gdpr.

What are the consequences of brexit? It is the we are now able to go back and look at GPR say is this working properly is necessary in some areas is possibly creating burdens on quickly small firms which aren't necessary and can we make it easier to work with and that's what the day reform consultation was all the Bad and the day to build when it comes forward in my view is one of the great opportunities great my brexit that we can frame our data protection laws in the

Continue to provide safeguards and protect people's privacy for instance but do try and help firms to take advantage of data because some people regard sharing data is a danger, but it's a bad thing that needs to be control sharing data is one of the great opportunities and instance we wouldn't have been able to get through the covid pandemic nearly as easily as we did we haven't been able to share data and sharing data is a great benefit consumers and therefore we do want to make it easier to do it is taking on gdpr regulations is a bit of a digital version of bringing back imperial measurements because you've got customers to access your service from all over Europe and further afield American companies quite often implement gdpr restrictions.

It's easier that way having a UK specific data rule.

Cookie rule any of the litany of things isn't really going to work for people who want to run global businesses.

Well.

It is if we maintain was cold so at the moment.

We are deemed data adequate by the EU because we have made the changes yet, so Bay Rays are also it be pretty surprising and there are no longer adequate in terms of our data collection as has been demonstrated by other countries you can achieve data adequacy without adopting whole of June so for instance the new information commissioner.

Why was evolved in is selection comes from New Zealand New Zealand is a country that is recognised as data.

I.e.

You but doesn't have gdpr it has its own system of data collection but one which delivers the same level of protections so the goal if you like is to make.

UK data protection laws easier for business to comply with to try and encouraged a sharing but still providing a level of protection which means with deemed adequate.

What is a cat that is what your data has definitely been out of I'm happy to confirm that I guess you got into the minister.

You've had select committees.

You look at all these media issues facing the government also facing the country.

What's the chorus you that they need to nail into properly.

Do you think in this next? What is a lot of legislative activity and how we talked about on my safety to talk about all of these are a bad trying to bring all laws up-to-date for is an incredibly fast changing environment and it's going to continue to change you know the digital Revolution is still early in its infancy but data AI Fraser allsorts.

Play to use we need to try and frame his loss so but they will allow the benefits which will undoubtedly come from these changes to fly when also for remain up today, so we need it priority and it's going to be quite difficult because areas of my political career concentrate on one of my colleagues who haven't spent that amount of time and sometimes quite difficult wrestle with the complexities of these issues, so I'm going to be kept busy I suspect this may be most the Bates as we move forward.

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Production and I'll see you next week.

Celebrate summer with Mamma Mia take it funny play Heart All Around the World and then on stage in London but I'm a songs as it's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know you love it the UK's energy challenges Ecuador is looking at the broader and if you picture from wind power Toyland gas and carbon capture and storage together with our partners energy transition by delivering the Broad energy makes we all need today and tomorrow find out.

Dot.co.uk I never like the analogy of enjoyed being this comes down and never liked it because I will come home.

I was the AMA people people live here.

I moved to New York and I went all over the world when I came home.

My people were still here.

My family is here.

So how do you talk about a city maggots disappear? My name is Jessica care more this is in a section C trait resilience and herself in the heart of the Day by the show on Apple Spotify or wherever you find great stories.