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It's a special play Dan I'm joined by journalist Nick Wallis we talked about the Paul Foot Award for journalism, Wesley Street finest gather this week as experience covering the post office Horizon scandal and the

Libel trial navigate social media when waiting to controversial cases and the state of trust in journalism podcast so this week was privatised Paul Foot award shining a light on great investigative journalists that excellent work and well done to Hannah Hoffman David Collins for winning the top prize for the investigation into the murder of Agnes Giroud in the Sunday Times also Awards our guests today Nick Wallis along with Richard Brooks got a special award the work on the Post Office scandal covering one of the greatest miscarriages of Justice in the UK Surrey and Nick's works across TV radio and online recently he's been following the Johnny Depp Amber Heard in the US because you've been to see Adam Ant time at private eyes.

Towards which I see me went along just because you thought you were going to watch it be awarded to someone yes, it was as much fun as seeing Adam and I thought it was an opportunity cos I've been invited to the ball that was before and private eyes and magazine which means a huge deal to me.

I read it going up I finish it must be more than 20 years now and when I started working with the private I start for Richard Brooks back in 2011.

It was it was a genuine joy has been a fantastic gymnast in many regards, and he's one of these people who told the way the background getting very little credit for the incredible work that he does and when he suggested that we collaborate on a Private Eye special about the post office scandal overslept at the chance because it meant I got an opportunity to go to the Private Eye offices this legendary magazine and work.

And yes he and I were given a surprise special award on Tuesday night which blew me away frankly it was an honour of the late John sessions with the word supplied by an anonymous benefactor who Ian Hislop said will never be made public but I'm not just extremely grateful to whoever that is any and obviously was happy to turn it into the water recognise, what region I did and so there are photos of me with my eyes Wide Open looking completely discombobulated by the whole experience it was it was because I mean so much to me and there's so many great journalist in the room.

I haven't really processed it yet, but I'm very very proud to slowly tedious degree and yes now.

I know it sounds of the rate of beta 2 gigs in and one private awards and I just want to lie down.

Let's go back in time so we talked about in this post office scandal the people who.

Maybe been under a rock tour of vaguely aware of it.

Where did you come into the story and what we first told you so many people don't know about the story is something.

I think most people in the media and most journalists and now aware of but I'm not entirely sure if you talk to rock it would hit someone you didn't know about the post office scandal it started the late 90s when the post office decided it wanted to automate it systems and the post office is a bit strange beast has this is the oldest government Agency what is root Charles the second time is older than the union of England and Scotland sold the Great Britain is older than the British Empire and it has this

Stony proximity to Power which makes it really dangerous and in the late 90s early 2000s it was treated as a arm's-length business owned by the government but I have to just get on with things it decided it going to snow in this disastrous computer system which didn't work and when the computer system started throwing up holes in postmaster accounts they decided it.

It's postmasters with thieves and that they should be prosecuted using the Post Offices own investigators and prosecutors so without all the checks and balances.

You'd expect from a police investigation or the CPS getting involved the post office using dodgy figures from its own IP system is actually ruined the lives of hundreds of people and it can't do this completely unchecked without any scrutineer oversight from the government or proper challenge from the postmasters Union until the group of campaign has got together and told them.

There is something going seriously wrong.

I would listen to the story in 2010 when a taxi driver told me is pregnant wife had been thrown in prison for a crime.

He didn't commit a line isn't it if someone says that yeah, well, I mean it the way it came to me was I was on there at BBC Surrey presenting the Breakfast Show and we got a Tweet from a company called Surrey Cars asking too big for the BBC Surrey cab account and if we had the BBC Surrey cab account.

I would have forwarded this to me to management, but we didn't and there's something about that tickled me so I say something rather flip and back whilst I was on here on the tweet saying it depends whether or not your drivers will come on here and tell us some of their great stories and the reply was a wife got a story so I called this guy after the show and spent 40 minutes on the phone to his name is David the mystery and his wife and she was the former West Byfleet sub postmaster in she was at that moment in prison.

Set down on her son's 10th birthday pregnant in Desperate fear of losing a baby and he was in bits and the one thing that made this take less time it would normally do with the fact that there was already an organisation called the justice for subpostmasters alliance and a brilliant young journalist called Rebecca Thompson had spent a year putting together an investigation for taxing Witcher come out in 2009.

So this was late 2010 and was able to say look the immoralist as the Justice of postmasters Alliance have a look at this Magazine article computer weekly, but I have been any broadcast on this other than a half hour Welsh language documentary so I took it to my boss and my boss said take it to James French about South which was the BBC's long-running investigation strategies now sadly to funk and Jane French said what that looks good.

It's like I put my best team on it.

Confront the resulting film which I didn't February 2011.

It's such a big story of these people lie and obviously beef and water postmaster in a similar to the 10-minute film featuring three of them David Bristow and Joe Hamilton with the other two all in a patch and when the film went out.

I was forwarded emails by the Inside Out theme from other people who have similar thing happened to the movie haven't even found in the in the run-up to the broadcast this either all these people are massive Liars protecting their Innocence or this is a and I tried to get traction through in the world of BBC and struggled a bit with that immediately alerted private.

I didn't hear back from them.

I just put the film that 10-minutes Inside Out film on my block and people start getting in contact with me and 2011 was when my third child was born and I was doing breakfast a 6 days a week and I'm assuming I probably wasn't on the ball as much as it could have been so I didn't push this huge huge.

Within the summer I got another message from another sub postmaster, who only just read the blog post that was just about to go to court.

Please guilty to false accounting because inexplicable holes in it galvanised me because I thought if I don't do something about this.

This is going to keep happening people are going to keep being criminalised without being aware that there are other people in the same both of them and just local organisation and so I tried again and that's when Richard Brooks got back to me and said.

Oh, yeah, sorry we didn't know what can you tell me if interested and so talk to them in females in all the documents.

I have to give everything I have and he did his first article in September 2011 and slowly through the good offices of Private Eye one side left BBC sorry.

I was freelance and able to do a bit more work on it for nothing we were.

Contraction for the story and then Inside Out South I went back to them when I had some more information.

They said ok, let's try and get it on The One Show got it on The One Show that got it to a national audience in the way that these things do the more light showing on a story the more people come out of the woodwork and give you more information and become better and stronger contacts and then we got the Panorama in 2015 and I think that was a big Turning Point and by that said it was quite firmly associated with the story but he didn't really break as a scandal.

I didn't actually knows you.

Just asking the questions.

We don't have any paper evidence that there's anything wrong with the writing system.

Just had all these supposed Masters with ruined lies and appalling stories to tell me when the sub postmasters themselves got the funding to take the post office to the High Court that the story eventually broke out into the open someone in authority sided with the post masters in March 2019 and everything subsequent travel from there, but that was that.

The media kind of woke up to the story in 2019 when there's something really serious here.

They got a high court judgement which is damning, so yeah, that's been involved in the story of the greatest microSD able to report it, but also to get it to the public opening times is when you doing this to me.

Just thought I know that I'm doing good but I got a mortgage to pay.

I've got other stuff to to do the must be quite a lot of those moments surely.

I mean that wasn't the period 2013 to 14.

I had paperwork I had documents I was looking at home.

I got this is for the post office with fantastic at just crushing any sense that this was going to the story.

They would call up jealous edited and sort of feeding the poison and say all I got the wrong end of the Stick there parking on about this, but honestly we got about this in the right way and processes.

They were in the middle of a cover up there with the middle of what some people have started to call a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and that still hasn't been properly unravelled by the post office is just generally trust it isn't it's just this bit around forever is on the high street.

There's lovely old ladies who run those little branches and you know it is for 67p whatever is now and it's been one lives and read your book is the great post office scandal everyone should go and get a copy of it things that struck me when I read it was the same investigators of the Post Office of people who did it with lots of cash that cause they got investigators because it's going to be a few there a bit dodgy the Horizon number for computer system that investigative team always thought hey quite a lot of these post office postmasters a dodgy and then when the Horizon can have proved that belief.

They just sort of pushed on this at all.

We always knew this now.

We've got the proof yeah.

I mean the post office was stuck to the Rafters with annett incompetent and I have yet.

See much evidence that that is changed these were life as who started offers either posties or council workers and were promoted beyond their ability interposition of real Power over other people's lives a lot of the Investigation Branch lyrics coppers.

There was a culture within the Investor branch the older than the police force that the oldest domestic role, does recognise investigation Force in the world so effectively later.

They're above the law and their investigation methods were pulling into a proper corporate investigator who is absolutely appalled by the way that they went about their business their questioning methods their techniques.

There are sumption of Guild and one forensic expert says

Fire investigator that they had been told as a matter of policy to disregard the idea that there are 80 system couldn't anyway be screwing so they work on the assumption that the IT system is right where the money sunshine and what they put these postmasters to who don't forget our community minded hard-working loyal and trusting people the reason I went into business with the post office is because they didn't authority that trusted in the government Agency in the same way that we used to and they didn't know what they were doing and they were allowed to carry on and check because the senior management in the didn't know what it was doing either be described as the staff at the heaviest to come in and sort of grill subpostmasters without representation in the back room for hours until they had what they needed on tape and investigation takes over survive when any supposed master try to get them off the post office they've been mysteriously lost or destroyed because the investigation Brushwood dodgy they were.

As was the whole of the Post Office at that by the time they arise and prosecutions are in full swing it was a branch of the government that when rope for more than a decade and because the government had no over because it was on the business and because the national federation of subpostmasters wasn't I supine Trade Association rather than a union there was more interested in going to Daniel dinner and the hierarchical nature of that organisation needs to be unpicked it was just a disaster a real disaster and every time.

I meet someone will hear about the story of a life that has been three harder than it looks very hard for us to get angry about something on the scale of this because one miscarriage of Justice should make us all very very angry more than 700.

We're not capable of feeling 700 times as angry and and that's what happened there.

Just there 700 lives and families lives around them you've been ruined 220.

Play some people come to it relatively unscathed and speak to people who say they took their lives or they ended up having a mental breakdown or they every single penny that they owned and I've got broken Futures and the state did this to them always say that the first job of the state is to keep its citizens safe and yet the exact opposite States committed harm against a huge cohort of incredibly trusting loyal and hard-working people and that is unforgivable to talk about with Nick so we'll be back after this celebrate summer with Mamma Mia cake.

It's lovely funny all around the world and then on stage in London featuring the timer songs as ABBA

It's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know you love it here's one for you.

What do you get if you cross the Irish sea with Irish Ferries hello duty free and no kidding a truly warm welcome aboard the whole gang camp addition to fly Wallace are you told her about trust your trust in institutions and this week.

There was a reuters digital news report released a lots of Kinder headlines about trust in using.

When you think about you the work that you do and said how the public respond to it.

Are you concerned that people are losing Faith institutions like journalism and news.

Yes, I mean the Debt be heard trial was a case in point people particularly in America but I think that's happening over here get their information from social media from source.

You are not proper rigorous journalists.

They are people with the platform who are looking for an audience and they will tend to see you there editorial output whatever give them a bigger audience and you end up with a horrendous echo chamber of people seeking biased information receive advice information creating hardening and cement based on this information.

I mean has created a country for the people through his manipulation of the media who largely believe in his narrative and

That's why American so divided because when I went over there to cover the Virginia people genuinely can get their heads around the idea that I was trying to be neutral and objective in my reporting.

They want to know who said I was on and if I didn't say I was on a particular site.

I was therefore untrustworthy.

I was obviously shilling for someone I was just not revealing who I was sitting for there's no concept of Neutrality I'm going back to this.

So you'll sort of got inadvertently caught up in the Depp heard trial when Channel 5 sent you to cover the UK leg of that court case why did you suddenly become the go-to man about a Hollywood trial on that first day for Channel 5-minutes and I had experience of treating court proceedings to work on the Post Office High Court litigation and whilst Channel 5 do not require me to live to eat.

What was happening.

They wanted me to make a TV news report.

I thought well.

Start treating it I can start pointing people towards the broadcast in the afternoon and it's something to do and say if I go and immediately I found this huge order my mentions in my followers sort of dressing up like a fruit machine.

It was it was incredible so I carried on treating what was going on and because it was the middle of the pandemic that was about the only one that I have that one Dave Channel 5 me.

I thought it would be fun to just carry on doing it because it was interesting what was going on in court and so I said will look if I can get back here tomorrow.

Would you be interested in me doing that to this Newfound audience of thousands of people online on Twitter and there was only here and had no idea was going to be able to get back into court because the capital place in court but I know how you can bring these things sometimes and presented myself and caught the next day of God in on the nod and sat down.

I mean live TV today because I had a tip for my work on the Post Office story repurposed hurriedly repurposed it and said that if you want to check it did Kavanagh bus fare my lunch money into the tip jar.

I'd be really grateful and people are very very enthusiastic about to him and I soon realised be able to pay for myself the trial for as long as I possibly kid and then you went to cover it in America which I guess was that you and buy that your tip jar as well.

Yeah, it was just that it was the knowledge.

There was a huge constituency of people who like my work and I quite like the idea of being lonely Jonas cover both trials and I wanted to see a bit of America and so I asked if you can fund me to come to America I will come and cover the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial in Virginia and across the huge crowds that return of Virginia everyday.

Switch on the credible social media snowballing effect recorded the first tiktok child in there and it was being televised live around the world streamed on YouTube and being picked up consumed re-edited repackaged Rican seemed and seen by millions there before I mean I went and had a look at the videos that you can have posted most days and the comments are fascinating and I think if you're listening to this and you're interested media and social media.

Go and read the comments in the bottom of those videos because as you said people wanted to know where you were on it where you team Johnny or or not? Did you think really was the bad news? I wasn't there.

I just reporting and what happened and obviously I'm speaking to as many sources as I can and I'm probably going to write a book on this as well and so

I'm talking to both parties in not the principles with them with the people close to both parties with a view to getting some more information because as we know this is going to spin out into possible appeals and the ongoing Media wall.

That's happening right now.

So yeah, I only people that want to know where I stand it.

I don't stand on it.

I don't hold a candle for Amber Heard or Johnny Depp I'm not been paid anyone to have an opinion.

I'm just really really interested in this story and is obviously a massive market for which is a freelance journalist is a week possible.

Is there any way to convince some of those people that that is the case and that you you are not secretly hiding support or you're being bankrolled by some nefarious organisation people have their truth.

You are sitting outside the truth.

Then it's almost an attack on their identity and there were thinking and the conclusions they have come to if they have been challenged and what they believed to be a settled truth, didn't like it.

They would rather think that you were up to something then have their own assumptions conclusions and identity challenged because their identity is more important to them and whatever I don't like it.

That's because your schedule journalist and there's nothing you can do about that and that is why America is so divided and my heating is managed to completely wrap up with the mentality of the Russian people that you are readily and there is a dividing line, but which the cultural Frontline 3 bit depth be heard in many many strands mensrights a female abusers meeting movement freedom of speech and goodness me what that is done for the First Amendment I'm not sure but I'd like to hear some constitutional experts.

Tell me where the thoughts on it, how someone can live.

In an article in America doesn't even mention them it happened and happened conclusively, but yeah, where does that leave the first amendment? I don't know so fascinating things run through it and people just simply not want to be changed.

They believe Amber Heard abused and therefore all the journalist and all the online trolls side with Johnny Depp Balsall pay for machine in some way or Johnny Depp was abused as a false Media narrative that always believe women and that's patently wrong etc.

So yeah, you just have to Wade into this send this mindfield put on a tin how to deal with all the abuse and try and pick a part as much interesting information as you can because there is a lot going on in that story and that's what you going back to it.

Social media has given me a living social media through Twitter as my to cover the post office scandal.

It's covered by hurt.

There are huge benefits social media but there.

Downside and I think we'll be stupid if we thought it wasn't contributing to the erosion of trust in organisations and authoritative sources journalism in particular unfounded we should spread about you online can be damaging to you, but I don't think there's any point in engaging and you just have to hope and I'm one of the date of the trial.

I was getting a lot of grief and I just put my head down.

I will get on with it and hopefully my work will stand up and for itself and I know that what I was getting as a fraction of what I would get if I run and it is a tiny little fraction of What Lies that hurt getting get for being prominent female journalist online in the night you do you have to take steps to deal with it? Could you just don't need it in your life? It's not a helping anything and it's just a fact of being in the online space.

So post office scandal, there's a book there is a ready for series successful ready for series and podcast the work you've done on the Depp heard trial and you just say there mate.

There's a booking it to what are you working on at the moment? Well the book marketing budget, so I've been taking it out to detox in various places.

I've got a tour which starts at the end of the month and goes around the southern part of the UK this summer and September and ensure that the end of the month on June 29th the shortest of postmaster Sammy Sadler who gave evidence so powerful at the recent experience in the public enquiry is going to be on stage with me.

He is thoroughly decent incredibly hard-working person who was ruined taken to court given a criminal conviction broken by the post office and I'm hoping that I have one of those moments where the community who knew him will be in the audience and we'll be able to change the narrative to talk to people locally.

What you think does this all pics together with the it system in and Sammie was caught up in his convictions quashed last year so really quite quite powerful because you summarised as much as you're able to tiny bit of Reading from the book but also then get individuals up on stage to talk about their experience and how this impacts of them.

I'm taking the contour just to spread the word about the Scandal to try to sell my books with money for the horizon scandal fun as well trying to connect with Communities you still don't know if you'd amount about this, but I just saw the headline last year until the outside the court of Appeal and yes, I am probably going to write a book about 2-ft her that can ruin my summer but you know that's what you call yourself an author wrote a book.

So yes, it's the market for that and if you want a immediate podcast exclusive, I will give you one I am going to be.

My own podcast with Rebecca Thompson he was the genus to break the story for computer weekly all about the post office scandal so Rebecca and I've been slowly putting together the beginning of a podcast series which will ramp up as the enquiries swings around in September and yeah, we're looking for supporters and sponsors of that if anyone is interested, but I think you'll be an opportunity to pull in investigating solicitors who voices you don't get that chance to hear in a long form format and just say right tell me everything from your perspective in just there is the tiny market for this post office story growing and people have really committed and really interested in it and there's so many interesting voices and stories out there and now to have the person who wrote the story working with me again.

It's a privilege.

So yeah, that's the plan for the rest of you say what website should people go to if they want a truck some Josh in the teacher or find out more about the book and the case is closed so I think I've got enough in a products ordered by the book.

Google.com, that's got all the theatre dates that are coming up over summer in September and you can also buy the book bathroom publisher bath Publishing and also something that is just about to learn something I can tell that started presenting podcast for the AC CRP which is the organised crime and corruption reporting project which is fascinating amazing journalistic organisation who have done some incredible stories.

I wish they deliver online.

They are one of the new models of journalism like the bureau of investigative journalism.

They have a team of journalists based around the world what I'm doing is talking to OCC up.

It's about the stories that they broke the risks that they took something they did with the mafia and proper organise scary crime.

Obviously they doing a huge amount on Russian orthodox at the moment.

It's just shining a light on a journalism recommend looking out for that if you need another forecast in your life.

There's always room for more thanks for your time.

It's been break talk to you.

Thanks for having me on really really and to all of you listening at thank you for giving us your time to listen to the show remake every week, if you do enjoy it, we would appreciate it if you could support us patreon patron.com the work we do and make sure that we can do a great show every week another way to support us by taking riverside.fm.

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Celebrate summer with Mamma Mia take a trip down the aisle with this funny feeling it's all around the world and see it then on stage in London where it all began featuring the timer songs as ABBA it's the world's funniest musical Mamma Mia at the Novello Theatre you already know you are we going to the UK's energy challenges Ecuador is looking at the broader energy picture from wind power Toyland gas and carbon capture and storage and together with our partners energy transition by delivering abroad energy makes we all need today and tomorrow find out.

Dot.co.uk and never like the analogy of you tried being this goes down and never liked it will come home when I was the AMA people my people live here I moved to New York and I went all over the world when I came home.

My people were still here.

My family is here.

So how do you talk about a city maggots disappear? My name is Jessica care more resilience and Hustle from the heart of the day on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you find great stories.