Read this: Going undercover in Myanmar

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 now matters new app threads is past 100 billion Twitter's ad revenue is down 50% but don't for a minute thing that we're social media is heading is Settle we're going to look at data tells us about which platforms were using and how were using them but we're going to begin with Stuart Ramsay from Sky News who spent a month undercover in the annual reporting on the Civil War there, but it's five patients are now being brought in from the battlefield.

It's really really busy in here because I'm however what you can't forget we are in the middle of a forest in a jungle really and attempting to keep these men are like I've been patched up before they got here it for this is where the real face.

Another casualty just coming through the door now.

He's on a stretcher and say it's busy and they're trying to find beds for him.

This is real emergency medicine in the hardest circumstances.

Thanks for coming in.

When did you start thinking about undertaking some about 2 years ago was when we actually first thought about it.

Obviously the little bit before that it was always complicated way of doing it but of course after that.

We had to do the coronavirus problems covid outbreak then you claim more and I was shot quite early on in Ukraine Wars as a result of everything was back and I just became sort of impossible to do but we didn't let go of it kept up with our contacts and that's when we decided we go in last month or so.

Many people listening would have seen the video clip on didn't put you off this trip.

No, I think it's for all of us some interesting my team that came with Richie and Dominica me in the car when we were shot it certainly has an effect on you because you know you you are very aware of what it's like to be driving along in a dangerous place in being attacked, but we've been back to you claim since we're back at work with we've done a number of quite risky.

Story scented is sort of what we do and think about that made the decision with her bosses that we were in good shape to do it.

It's what you do, but going undercover during the civil war in Myanmar has its particular challenges to say the least where do you start when the boss is say ok in theory we're going to support this where do you start with the practicalities of of putting something like this together? Yeah, well firstly.

A long Dominica produces no in the people that would assist us to get in for a very long time now quite a long time so there's a lot of trust built and then we got to trust them to join the trust if you like in the talking and the conversations about how you how you would move where we would go at cetera and say that became if you like the information that you give to the to the senior management to have to make a decision as you say it is quite.

It's a big risky operation because it is so extreme.

There is no need for you to go to the snow this difficult to get out of your injured of your captured it really really bad news, so there's a difficult one that you have to put in place.

I think initially I this is one of the reasons.

I want to know because we didn't know what was going on other than reported with a hearing that does a civil war but nobody knew what we were to find much of the planet was like how will you survive in the jungle for sale.

How dangerous is that a proper jungle with spiders and snakes and all the rest of it and how do you go about the setting that from Sky News Centre in London experience from from working in extreme hostile environment over many years and I think I'm putting together the best plan you can talking to the people who their recent preparing yourself physically mentally to go in and working in that very hostile environment.

I don't know how much as you can tell me but how did you get in? I can't tell you anything that's because we would give away.

I would put the people took it in in incredible danger, but I would say I can talk talk about about what it's like once.

We were inside we working with or help by resistance fighters armed and volunteers and Medics and between them and mix of them.

We're able to move around sometimes by foot quite often by foot and then more than we expect you actually on the backs of.

C-130 on the backs of trucks presumably then you're having to operate within a reasonably contained area within the M3 it.

Just takes forever to get there because you can't really use the main road, so you you're you're basically driving through the jungle on tracks occasionally to be an area that the surgeon see has actually taking control off, but there was an example when we just reminding me when you're coming out.

We will our driver suddenly was very slow and it was like why we going so slow it's like they always cold in Burma by the way the opposition was calling Burma it's the army will on this Bridge only a day ago, so we're going slowly so it was certainly got a lady from the village to get a motorbike and go ahead to see if the soldiers would still there so it was really it's really complicated.

There's no clear front line and so you have to have local.

All the time and a bit of love and I haven't tried to explain this on the news myself is incredibly complicated conflict.

It's not a simple as simply the military on one side and then completely cohesive operation taking it on how did you decide how to navigate the relationships between the different groups or opposing the government? It is really it complicated.

Just quickly so people understand about just over 2 years ago.

There was a military.

Coup de to go over lots of young people who rose up in opposition to this were killed on the streets many of those people have gone to all sorts of different states that are ethnically diverse that they're not the same so Korean was one of the States we are in which is next door to speak same language.

So that communication between them is is quite complicated for the first time the resistance movement.

Knighted in one absolute determination to to attack the Myanmar military and try to turn over the cuckoo that has happened.

It's not it's not particularly well organised between them but because of so many I think this is this is what we feel because so many people from city to young people from cities have now joined.

The ranks.

It is finding them together a way that they haven't before and I think the what we have seen is and it's just what we took away from this.

Was you don't live in the jungles one thing that actually what is huge and really dangerous, but but it's what the Myanmar government jumper is trying to do is to break down Society breakdown the will of the people so they attacked places of worship attacked school spare tank medical centres and attacked sounds like it's working.

It's actually seems to the resolve other people seems to harden.

And I will quite taken with that and what are you being taken with that? Why you are witnessing these things did you see any other foreign journalists? No, we don't think there are any foreign journalists around the been very few data have been some Fairmont Sky News and BBC went on over I went to my within a year on the invitation of the authorities.

Probably couldn't even knew what they were hearing quietly but they couldn't they can illustrated and so you can't if you have you go with the with the mission.

You'll never see the story.

I'm interested use the word illustrated of course a broadcast journalist such as yourself Leeds to illustrate the scenes that your wedding you speak to how does that challenge vary between the conflict in Ukraine in terms of filming people interviewing people with what you found in Myanmar it is a very interesting when it comes.

Actual conflict itself jungles are really difficult to film in because you can hear an awful lot of stuff, but you can't see it at all.

I think if you're going to the local populations have been moved from their homes are still very available where as in Ukraine from the East example most of pretty much left in in large numbers, but large numbers of people have available.

What was a very good way of illustrating little something we realised as soon as we went there was a secret hospital.

It's so important to the local population to population actually have a quite a large and also for the resistance movement in away everything comes through there and so we would be able to see people with being injured but also the help that came from the hospital to the displaced people died in the way visual visual place to start button actually see what's going on mind you filming it because of course of the sky news report.

It's a secret they were we've gone out of our way not to show exact location when I'm saying where it was which take all the people are in it most of whom were from the cities from very successful doctors and surgeons if their faces in it Dave accepted.to.

They want to be in it so clearly using the story matters because of all the work that you and your colleagues have put into covering but I wonder if it's a hard story to place in the news agenda while the war in Ukraine bats understandably gets an awful.

Lot of the attention in terms of the Worlds complex one of the interesting.

How many people farmers doctors teachers will come up and bring up the Ukraine thing straight away without even asking them all the time all that I'm on my way they say it's 2 years very similar timescale and we've got absolutely no help and all we read about is Ukraine getting this huge amount to help.

What is the difference with fighting for democracy? This is a

You get the Dr kucho place the day before parliament was about to get sworn in an elected Parliament so that's there their and they're saying we get absolutely nothing out what I know.

Do you say by the way, it's very difficult.

I don't know I think it's because nobody knows what's going on.

I don't believe the words of inherently if you like racist position taken by the world against my people I think what what it is.

Probably a couple of elephants once a certain amount of the United States have confirmed the the junta China is a neighbour real problem my sister and it's a very supportive of the my mum.

I thought all of these are issues.

If I think it's genuinely they haven't seen it.

So they don't know you to speak of that I can certainly not that I can do it when you start seeing the pictures of large numbers of people are GP's etc that you will actually get some action taking place and maybe that will can I ask you.

BBC Jeremy Bowen a few weeks ago when he was on the media show which is when you take these risks and put all this work into covering a story you still end up leaving some material out because you feel like it's not appropriate to share it sometimes.

It's because of the safety of the people you spoken to the party because sometimes images from war are too much to share.

How do you make those calculations both in terms of the sounds and the images that you that you provide us.

We we started our very first piece that we will try and the other day with a screaming of people in hospital have been changed.

I know people found that difficult when I lived through it.

So it was really difficult than it was a pretty confident at least three times a day and it lasted hours when I first saw that was when I first heard it.

I spoke to the team.

I said this will be the opening of our peace on certain.

It's like you do you think and it's interesting?

He knows how to film injuries whereby they are there for their past acceptable broadcast limited knows what he's doing loads of pictures we won't use for text but he knows how to film the sound was a real is a big one and I know it went to our senior editorial staff and some will not show but I had of news Jordan he said why we shine away from this if it is as bad as we should show it however difficult it is to take but it's on the first time that I can remember where the sound is Father far worse than the visual image which is quite rare up to tell me in to talk to us about your reporting trip you can see Stewart's report from Myanmar they can turn on Sky News this week is that correct are online as well? Thank you very much indeed for coming in at Stuart Ramsay Sky News Now next on the media show not the first time we can talk about social media because not for the first time.

It's had a crucial juncture Mark Zuckerberg metaverse launch.

He may well have heard about it.

It's an app that will feel very familiar if you see the use of scene Twitter and then Twitter itself is struggling with advertisers since Elon Musk took over last year or this isn't just about which billionaire has a product going out which is doing well by looking at social media.

We can better understand.

How are online lives are evolving look at this with Dave Lee from Bloomberg and also Elaine Moore from the ft.

Elaine's the presenter of a new series of the ft is tectonic podcast which is focused on social media, so it's great studio Elaine bowl start with Dave is live with this from New York and day before you go any further.

Just give us a beginner's guide to thread please or Friends is she said it's a Twitter clone.

It's time to capitalise on the fact that switches had serious struggles since Elon Musk took over the company late last year and it works in Motion

Come down not in chronological order.

They're dead algorithmically driven, and it's short text updates pictures short videos the things that used to sing on Twitter and it had a big head start of my right because if you already had an account with Instagram is very easy to come across.

Yeah, so one of the things that the other competitors to Twitter struggled with was in people that only for them to them on Twitter meta.

Had a huge star they had Instagram that's got almost 1.5 billion and they were able to match up people who are following each other Instagram and immediately help them find them on three people that were already within minutes.

You know following hundreds of accounts are being followed by hundreds of other account as well, so that timeline which looks kind of quiet on somebody other competitors.

Bustling III compared to arriving at destination wedding where you suddenly go into rumour gold uncle Jesse Aaron going to get here tomorrow and that was that was the atmosphere as well.

That's how I found it to Elena's bring you in because the numbers are I assume welcome for Mark Zuckerberg and his mentor colleagues, but I'm looking at data from similarweb.

What's the number of daily active users on threads has dropped from 49 million to 2/23 in a week.

Would we expect that or is that a Bad Sign I love them and typically? I'll join all using a few days overtime my interest Windle and so other people's you'll see less less from people that you know you're just less interesting content and you'll go back to what was familiar in that lot into you had you mentioned Stuart mentioned his his collect from me and I saw that on Twitter this morning.

I didn't see it on threads.

I think that you are still where people go so although you'll

Count on thread.

I think people are still using it so much more to say there's been an awful.

Lot of commentary around Twitter and it's performance since Elon Musk bought it.

What does the data show there are lots of people telling us? It's not going very well on Twitter at the moment.

Is that backed up by The Numbers even it's not getting very well, so it's a private company ever since he bought it last year 44 billion, which was an unbelievably large sum of money and vastly over values.

He hasn't then he gives out data in dribs and drabs, so what he told us the advertising revenues half.

He doesn't say what time period but I guess that means about 2.5 billion this year.

It's going to make he's also said the interest payments are 1.5 billion this year, so then you add on some costs even if you get rid of the workforce is not breaking even so the very basics of running a company have failed fortress of Elon Musk business point of view but from a user's point of view and the users are particularly concerned about Twitter

Bottomline are they are they leaving is is there evidence behind the narrative that for some people? It's just not what it was.

That's true.

I think the two things are connected because I want is to put the advert in front of people.

They were worried that changes in content moderation and also this supposed fleeing of the audience means that there's no point fitting adverts and that's why they removed without taking revenues come down a lot.

I think that people keep their account.

I think there's lots of talk and there was lots talk.

I must bought the company last year and I think keep them and if there is something to read if there's a reason to go back there they'll keep going back so I don't know people like to talk about Duncan Elon Musk from Bloomberg let's bring in the Barry is a sociologist at the University of Edinburgh interview on the on the media.

So thank you very much indeed now.

There is a pitch being made to us by matter that threads will be a more.

To experience than Twitter which can be a little bit of an abrasive digital experience for better or for worse.

Do you think there is a market for a more and more positive experience than Twitter is offering play Daniel hickey and colleagues that we've seen on Twitter in the past year also increase and hate speech and automated content and so on and it's quite possible.

That is going to turn people off.

However.

We do also know that people are drawn online to engage with kind of outrage content right.

This is I am thinking of work.

I will Ian Brady and other shows the data that the Range the post is the more likely it is to get engagement hits and likes and retweets and so on so as much as we say we want to build this.

More sanitise digital town square or public sphere.

I'm not entirely sure that is what we want your evidence to suggest in fact that the more contagious more content online that spreads further is that which is kind of braids and mentally abusive at times and Elon Musk contest that hate speeches has gone up on Twitter this is and she's come back to a number of times but Dave is an interesting observation from Christopher that in many aspects of the media.

I can think of you know whether it be social media or some Mary is a broadcast strong opinions can't see argument.

Thanks.

It's popular so as such as it particularly logical to say that if there's too much of that on Twitter it will drive people away in degrees of control that the social networking over to see how to advice save and hate for the continent is there is ample recently Twitter started sharing.

Revenue with certain posters on Twitter who reaches a certain threshold of posts and what they're doing.

They're basically saying that the more engaging you are the more money we gonna give you that creates added pressure to be as outrageous as possible.

I think he's trying to do is not necessary reward that behaviour in the same way.

It's not as straightforward to go viral on Twitter and also made no clear that he's invited people back onto a previously removed from the platform for a feature of the things he was disgusting today in response to some some Bloomberg reporting is there was saying 99% of what is seen on Twitter today? Is it healthy concept now as I was saying somebody dribs and drabs of data on particularly useful and certainly wouldn't have passed must have when Twitter was a public company but the definition of what?

Something that shouldn't be on Twitter has shifted and really must have him to say that it's getting better.

It's not a precise comparison to talk to wear Twitter once was and I want to bring you in just before I do I should I should say that the background atmosphere it with the we can hear is because you're in Greece is that right.

I am increasing impact on my honeymoon speaking to the first and second of all thank you very much for joining us and 3rd.

Please apologise to your other half a letting a Steal You Away for half an hour.

That's really appreciate it.

Let me ask you just help how to get back a little hair Christopher and look beyond threads on Twitter can we see longer-term trends in how people approach social media and what they want from social media platforms particularly young people.

Can we say that what they want now is not the same as what they might have wanted 5 years ago.

Younger online users migrating to so-called video sharing platforms the spy these things tiktok Snapchat YouTube and others and I know that I recently enjoyed reading about Demise of the social networking aspect of social media people think about the Ofcom children's Media attitudes report in 2023 young people do report write the they are less willing to share information about themselves online and they do also report Seymour can add content and high-profile content creator content online which may be a bit of a tunnel the other thing to say if I'm is that they are still sharing quite a lot of content and that's remained relatively stable over the last 506 years as well 40% of users of different social media platforms still posted on.

I think to say we sing a real shift and how people in using social media and it's less social network key it is may be slightly missing the point more what's happening is that people are a bit more agile and they're shifting across platforms and sharing information and a different way.

That's interested.

You're saying there may be using different social destinations for different purposes as we've just been hearing about this and tell us more so there's big platforms like Instagram like Facebook I don't post on them anymore, but I seem to spend a lot of because I've become part of this big passive audience of luck as essentially with are watching the content consumers nothing more.

They are happy with the advertised the happy with that and I'm fine with me on Instagram I don't really miss seeing things from my friends because that content now comes in encrypted small private message in group that's WhatsApp please.

The whole thing has divided you have social networking turning into mass media and you have private messaging do you tell if your social networks right? It's Twitter used to be a place where you could complain about flights I saw it here in New York for the day and it had a Twitter username and it was dropped out because obviously they won't using it anymore.

I feel like that the interaction element of Twitter is lost now and when the when the platforms become more broadcasting platform as opposed to interaction platforms lose the the social networking part of social media, which I didn't have lost an incident.

How are you? I just want to finish by reading a quote from head of Instagram Adam mosseri.

He said that the threads app is not going to do anything to encourage politics and hard news which rather begs the question Lane how does he and they propose to stop?

They can't but even saying that journalist seem to join threads with so much and I'm considering the amount of things that have been written about Mark Zuckerberg up till now it was quite astonishing.

How will people to sign up to threads, so there's not much they can do to stop it's not like they're going to block the content but to make it so clear that this is not the space for us send out a statement and I think that it would make me promoting cast My Mind back to the Mists of time.

I don't remember Twitter launching and saying this is going to be a news platform it almost evolved into that and I guess that's what's changing now is the inside of the Communities deciding what platform is going to be for you.

Have a company telling you I'm finally the you should have rate limits.

This is a bit of a niche point but I want problems where it said we've just got so much pressure at the moment.

We can't serve up all the content that you might want to watch we know people from threads of alluded to this as well to what degree is social media prat.

Given the amount of boats and spam that's now being pushed through them so that the rate-limiting that something has happened.

It's where they live in the number of requests you can make to a server essentially they were limiting the number of tweets agency let alone post that for a for a brief while.

I'm friends.

That's a different just so just stopping accounts from doing lots of exercise, but a lot so you can follow those people that kind of stuff now the reason why these companies are thinking about this and you seem read it as well thinking about this.

Is it there is a proliferation of just posting but also scraping the content because as companies are trying to build up data for AI that's how they doing it with scraping very useful day.

Thank you very much for having me a question about rate limits in 35 seconds at the end of the program and letting you did thank you very much indeed to Dave leave from Bloomberg to lay more from the ft2 Christopher Barry from the University of Edinburgh and earlier on we heard from Stuart Ramsay from Sky

is as always say at the end of the media show do remember you can listen back to every single edition of the programme through the BBC Sounds app including this one which should be there in an hour or two thanks for listening.