Read this: How to interview Andrew Tate

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome well in the us.cnn.com is out to know one surprise really because a few days ago.

The Atlantic magazine laid bare problems the article will go down as one of the Great Beyond mistakes in recent memory will talk to former CNN Brian stelter about what's gone wrong at one of the world's best-known media companies also talked to the BBC's Lucy Williamson about interviewing and Anna's Tucker Carlson posters first show on Twitter water a man have quite different politics who's also recently departed Rupert Murdoch stable David on a virtual tell us about stopping times and starting out on his own on substack and David turn the media Studio with me hello.

Turn the mini editors many Media leaders when they changed as it really make a difference to the content that produced in the information that consumed one of the organisations.

Obviously I work for the BBC and I think you can say about the BBC it really doesn't make much difference if an organisation is pretty certain about what it's role is and has a strategy which is approved the top management and buying large the changes that the view of the residency you're going to be marginal now that the effect upon the personnel might not be great because particularly newspapers to see things in very different ways left very different occupations some editors might for example of a newspaper interesting comment and some editors just interested in using that we care very much about what goes on time will have a very big effect on the level of intervention at the editor takes in what's on the comment pages and who's there discuss cnnc you going in a few minutes with Brian stelter with David and with others to

Convertible let's turn to Andrew take we talked about in before on the media show he's a social media influencer is currently under house arrest in Romania as prosecutors investigate him and his brother for crimes include suspected human trafficking and rape Andrew Tate denies doing anything wrong and last week the BBC podcast interview with Andrew Lucy Williamson conducted it.

It was takes first TV with a major broadcaster since being released from custody my job was to meet a girl go on a few dates sleep with her get her to fall in love with me to the point where she do any I say and then getting on webcam, so we could become rich together.

I don't think that's what I personally said I can go again once again.

If any female on the planet has a problem with me.

I strongly recommend her to go to the police and try and pursue me for criminal wellbeing scooter place and route.

Phone in Romania and I've been talking to Lucy Williamson about it well.

We spent many months in Romania covering the story and as part of that we built relationships with all sides in the store including with his team and when he came out of custody in April into house arrest.

It became possible for him to talk to the media for the first time and so that was when we began exploring whether this might be something that the BBC wanted to do whether it was something that and you take himself wanted to do and we discussed with his PR chief whether that might be possible, so it take quite a long time.

There was a lot of vehicle issues to think about that one of editorial issues to think about but we continue the conversation.

I should make it clear through his PR we don't speak to play directly about anything and then it was really a question of his legal team deciding what the right date was for him to do it to to to not interfere with his court appearances.

There was an

Cancel that will pay for that was an appeal against that then we were told that he had a dental emergency so he needs to go and have that dealt with and in the end decided to go ahead with it last week were there any preconditions and what you could or couldn't ask no preconditions when we first talked about the interview and were told we get it as a courtesy.

We sent over list of general question areas that we might want to talk about but it was always very clear that we would have the right to answer any question we wanted to check that list of questions and in the days leading up to the interview.

You know we were very clear about why we were doing it that are Focus would be on the allegations that women have made against Mr Tate on the concerns that a lot of people have had around his influence on young people and it will be completely up to us what questions we asked so you could ask any questions that you wanted you would agree day.

Where is Andrew Tate's head of Communications tell us about the day itself the experience of of going in and setting up and beginning the interview? It was a different kind of interview because I mean you'll know this was like in most interviews you going as a journalist and your job is to build trust and this was an interview with there was an awful.

Lot of distrust us right from the stars and you take is made no secret of the fact that what he calls the mainstream Media is not to be trusted.

We knew that he had field interactions with a another BBC journalist previously and then use that film to try and humiliate that journalist and we were having to do the interview on his territory in the house because we couldn't agree more neutral location like a hotel room or somewhere else so we had to go into his compound and when we walked in we realise that.

Was filming the whole visit our interaction the whole interview and so yeah, the distrust was quite apparent and I'm interested that you mentioned.

He was filming a whole interview to because I think he's now subsequently released the entire exchange between the two of you while the BBC released a 10-minute edit tell us about the decision to do that then to do what Andrew Tate and his colleagues have done the interview according to our editorial priorities and this was not a getting to know you interview with Andrew Tate the reason that the BBC did the interview with him was to put those very serious allegations that women have made about him to him to see his response and to ask him about these concerns over his online and so this was a challenging interview.

It was one we wanted to hear his response to those specific things and it was those editorial principles that guided are edit we.

Interviews with world leaders very very few people we would put out an unedited 40-minute interview you know.

I think there was a feeling that just because Andrew made a virtue of him putting out the unedited version it doesn't mean the BBC is going to be bounced into doing the same you know we have our own a tutorial principles and as I say this was a particular kind of interview and we wanted to to highlight their questions that we put to him and his responses to them.

They were number moments in the interview when I was watching and I was thinking what how would I handle this particular moment and one was when you were quoting Andrew Tate's website to him and he was questioning whether those were his words.

What do you do when an interviewee is essentially telling you that is in Plain Sight or at least what was in Plain Sight before it was removed isn't actually what we saw and what we think we saw.

I think you need to present the evidence in his.

Detail as you can and that's where it helps to have those quotes in to have spent all those months researching it and looking at what he said and done.

I don't think it's helpful to get drawn into the black and white of it, but I think if you can present in as much detail as possible it can help the audience judge the response to that and I think one of the things that is valuable even when an interviewee does not engage directly in the in the of what the interviewer is saying is there still a lot that can be learnt from the the manner in which they respond to those concerns or the manner in which they respond to the questions being put so the quote that you mentioned from his old website was really very striking in the matches exactly what a lead victims say he did.

I think his response to that question would have been interesting for much of the audience even if he disputed the fact that it existed now listening to you.

Lucy is evident you spent a long time preparing for those 40 minutes that you spent interviewing Andrew you went into this with your eyes open you would have known the once the interview was released it was going to find it in the middle of a huge amount of activity online.

How is that experience been?

There's been a lot of it.

I would say and you and you would have known that yes.

Yeah.

I was expecting that yeah, some of it is unpleasant some of it is very childish.

Some of it is actually funny there are also some very dark threats that are made and not just to journalists who interact with him, but spoken to young women who have spoken out in the mildest possible way online or disagreed with what he says and Andrew takes followers have attacked them with really dark threats and somebody serious backlash is coming their way you would have known the reaction to the interview would be hostile in part however it went and you would have known that the exchanges with Andrew tape we're going to be challenging in part as well.

How did you anticipate being in that moment and prepare for?

I spent quite a long time thinking through what he might say he's done interviews before so I could see patterns in how he responded to being challenged.

I spend some time thinking through how to deal with what might come back.

I asked several producers involved in the story to role play with me in O2 to go through it and to say throw things back in to see you know what might be the best way of handling things and I think going in I just had a few rules in my own head about not getting drawn into arguing the points but letting him speak for himself and the audience judge for themselves and also being cleared.

I wasn't there to answer questions that I hadn't agree to an interview.

He had agreed to an interview and so while he was free to answer anyway.

He wanted that that it was up to me.

Decide what to ask.

Do you have any regrets about doing it or do you still think it was the right thing? I think it was the right thing to do.

I think the fact that he had been robustly challenged about some of the allegations and claims and concerns around his behaviour meant that as long as we did it carefully and in the right way.

I think it was the right thing to do and I have an Avalanche of response from people not just a negative response we talked about but actually many many many people getting in touch from around the world saying how much I appreciate it seeing the interview and the chance to see is responses while you can watch Lucy Williams interview with Andrew Tate on BBC iPlayer you can also watch last night's Newsnight Richard further allegations my British woman of sexual violence by Tate in 2014 allegations that he vehemently denies still in the studio is David aaronovitch David you're listening.

With Lucy there, would you take the interview yet? I think this is an example if you're going to do something like this with somebody who is a struggle really to use the colour correct word here without have been able to actually but nevertheless who is right out there and who is a notorious elf Popper cyst and who has quite probably done a series and damage you have anything wrong, but I think he's done serious amount of damage simply by the attitudes which you can see online right now from him and son teaches quite seriously about the impact that he's having on discussions in the classroom know the interview that Lucy did Will mostly be seen by people who are not fans of Andrew Tate but may have children who counter it and so from the point of view of the list of you.

It's really valuable to do an interview which has been so well research and wishes, so well structured that you don't actually let him get away.

He wants to get away with which is essentially what he was trying to be honest all part of the interview and it's quite clear that what he was trying to keep it was also sent you trying to bully Lucy and she refused to be bullied and actually that was quite important to set before people of how to deal with people who are like him, but those listening as I was saying you can watch Lucy Williams interview with Andrew Tate on BBC iPlayer that was one issue in the day this week that we wanted to discuss another is what's happening within us news media because once again.

It is all going on CNN CEO Chris is out.

He's only been in the job since last period came in with a big agenda to win back right of centre of Americans it has not gone to plan let's bring in Brian stelter former CNN host very well-known Media commentator and brick cladding wnyc on the media podcast Brian you both very welcome here on the media show and Brian that start with you.

Take me back to early 2022 and what the new owners of Siena

And Chris Lake were hoping to achieve at the time.

I was in anger on CNN I love my time there hosting reliable sources are so kind of like this one covering the media and the programme was cancelled last August as part.

I think of a brother at the decanter personalised CNN to make it the something that wasn't feeling too everyone to Republicans Democrats everyone in America the challenge of us about that is so severely fractured pregnant and so are media habits and Chris has the president of the healthy and didn't really Express to the staff what exactly you wanted to do exactly how it went to change Stepaside there left in the dark.

They didn't know what the boss money.

They could just gas space on the tea leaves.

They were reading all along which was talking to report in the Atlantic for a profile that he will be positive the profile came out last Friday it was absolutely withering scaling.

It was as if self immolated and now here 5 Days Later he's been for sale.

Madagascar was titled inside the meltdown at CNN and after the consequences of its publication they'll be that's an extra article to go with it because it's added to the meltdown at CNN Brooke just come in and help us here with the reasons for CNN looking to reposition itself because of the Politics of its new owner and it's new leader with Chrysler coming in or with a commercial that seeing this made sense in terms of boosting its numbers as in editorial decision writing the media making it more moderate looking for absolute truth.

This was one of the phrase he used saying that people can say whether or not they like rain, but no one can say that it isn't what he did.

It's almost impossible to do it as Brian said in the political climate in the US there is a

Travel dilemma between lying on the air and covering much of the gop it's just inexpressibly obvious so I think that this had to be in about readings but also about John Malone who owns the company that owns CNN and his political leanings and perhaps David's political leanings.

I'm not quite as clear on and those are the people who now decide who the new leader of CNN is going to be I should add that the gop is shorthand for the Republican party David was coming here there people listening right in the UK thinking well.

This is an interesting media store in the US but what's it got to do with me just explain why the leadership and direction of CNN and the influence of cable news connect to us politics and the first great news at the park and I have thought for a long time seeing a century was the sort of the BBC of cable news.

Fantastic reporters going to all kinds of trying to be as impartial as possible and it seems to have been offended by the trump era.

Just as our colleagues in the states of saying essentially which on earth you find a way to journalistic balance through that kind of storm interesting you mention Donald Trump because you can definitely make a case for the wheels really started to come off at sea and recent weeks after a recent CNN Town Hall event with Donald Trump it was hosted by CNN kaitlan, Collins it was in front of a crowd at seeing it selected a crowd it was full of boisterous trump supporters and here are different colours and Donald Trump discussing the former presidents handling at classified documents the Federal Government was seeking them and then I'll give you a subpoena to return.

Are you ready? Can I talk to you mind?

It's very simple to you are nasty person that was the first time Donald Trump it appeared on CNN since 2016 Chris and sheena's time defended the decision but Brian stelter almost everyone else thought it had not gone well and it highlighted the ongoing challenge of handling Donald Trump it did this town hall back and say it was a Turning Point for CNN as an institution because the Debate should not be I might be weather book Donald Trump at how how dry vs.

Tate interrupt him or not have an audience or not and a lot of feelings that restrict it all wrong way, but I had to say I think he was on the way for the town hall in the reason I say that is the institution the news on the head with reacted him already and I hate to say that because I've known that almost 20-years.

I'm very fond of him.

I know it.

Juicer extraordinary but for some reason he never won the staff over he was never able to convince the staff that his vision was the right one.

They basically are left in the dark and then they with him at the trump Town Hall happen, then what is going on here in Brixton tonight? Isn't about let it about David as well to owns the company and has been a very involved and Sian and now they're going to be questions about whether he's to involve are the Media mobile trying to run The Newsroom are coming back to you earlier point about it's not whether to book Donald Trump it's how you handle the booking but isn't the point that for years now the news media in the Global Media I've been trying to work out how to handle Donald Trump and lots of cases.

They don't seem to be able to come up with an answer that works for their business or there audiences that is a problem sometimes the business and the audiences interests don't absolutely convergent journalism is supposed to be for most about accuracy.

Donald Trump is quite the way Lucinda dealt with the date in the earlier discussion, don't be bullied don't give an opportunity for others to cheer and adversarial when adversarial attitudes and questions are called for are demanded and that's the way that you talk to trump and it should be the only way that you talk to trump, but isn't their underlying this Brian a more uncomfortable truths which is however CNN handles Donald Trump however it approaches looking for new cable TV in its role in US politics and us Media is in Decline and the news media is fundamentally struggling to deal with political candidates.

You have completely different approaches to Democracy in truth to some of their predecessors something about the United States and that include something about the media.

Alternative universal Media to prop up him and his lies and that puts me in any adversarial pasta, that's not Siri that's Donald Trump's fault but the point for president in Bristol with the consequences, so there's a business model problem as you said the businessman or severe pressure and tauriel challenge which is how to be louder than Liars has turned up to demagogues and want to be dictators while trying to win over the audience while trying to win over the audience and in a way that editorial problem that makes the business model problem worse and that is only work not least with the US election coming down the track and 2024.

Thank you very much indeed for your time for Gladstone as well.

David aaronovitch.

You're staying here because the last 3 minutes of the program and must ask you what things are going you recording is for many years on the times.

You've stepped out of ribbon.

Murdoch's empire and into a world of your own on Saturday how is the world of your own.

I like the way, what's your population is earlier which is essentially I loved incidentally beam bracket.

It would also left in the last couple of my thoughts and David show has a real the interesting thing is that you know there's a moment when someone is going to say to you now.

Will you push off please and here's a bit of money and it's always so the question is what it is.

You do next then the first thing.

I realise when I lost my job at the times was I gone from a really huge platform.

I have underestimated just how much that does for you really then it's easier and also just the fact that it is all done for your in the paper every week or twice a week at there.

It is it you have to bother how is produced you don't have to bother what it looks like.

That's not your job and you don't do the publicity for it somebody else.

Does it and then all of a sudden you're there and you still want to say things.

Possibly but you made not the same more thing that how you going to do it and so I've bought into this thing called substack as have a lot of other writers who found themselves in similar in similar positions which is a really extraordinary platform because it's so well organised and essential.

It's a kind of monetised blog.

You can get paid subscribers too as well as not paid subscribers, but what it's like.

That is a bit like a period every Thursday at the National Theatre ok and you doing you can I take it for granted about go the flyers etc? You see the NEC the adverts on the Tube and son and then all of a sudden you start a theatre up in your back garden and you get to choose everything instead of being stymied by now.

You can't do this context has done it.

All.

We are too much of that.

That's too long etc.

You choose everything and so you get that very close connection with the people who choose to come in but do you miss the oversight do you miss someone going actually David

No, I'm really really so maybe I should I mean and quite often will say that right as are their own worst enemy and only that have been edited and it's true my first two pieces on Stubbs both roles in at 3500 words which was preposterous.

I was going to have to write whatever you like.

Whenever you like it in response to breeders in the response you're right.

It's unbelievable luxury.

The business problem.

Is it a party to which anyone will come and so far the answer is and so far the answer is that 548 subscribers of cam and Batman about 9000 subscribers so far after 2 months? It's called it's called day.

It's called notes from the Underground with David I also wanted to ask you because we've been talking about Andrew te2.

Gave that interview to the BBC we talked about Chrysler to gain access to the Atlantic at the moment was saying Prince Harry giving evidence at the High Court as part of.

In case against the Daily Mirror Phillip Schofield gay very high profile interview to Al Miraj and on the BBC these are all men who in very different ways and in very different circumstances are using the media to put their side of their stories.

What are you learning from the different approaches that are being taken and how the media handles its role in their it really is very interesting the most controversial in some ways will be the Phillip Schofield interview.

I'm in Prince Harry's in court giving evidence and has a long and he's had the book to put his side of the case is that the TV series please and and interviews and now he's doing in a court of law and there is a person who is absolutely convinced that he has a big story to tell and he wants to make sure that everybody gets it at Phillip Schofield it wasn't all clear by Phillip Schofield of the interview that he did it wasn't hopefully then by the BBC wanted to do an interview with her because she was in the middle of the story of huge interest of the audience.

Another know what the story is that's what so kind of it.

That's what so kind of Extraordinary they told me about it and also there is a kind of conflict quite often between what the audience might be interested in and what the what the editorial process to say this is important as what we spend our time on however that such as you know that's a very old debate inside all kind of Media organisations which which has gone but I wasn't sure if you had anything you particularly wanted to say I wouldn't help and maybe that's what I thought was interesting was the way in which something like Elon Musk or something like Kate wants to try and actually hold it over the Legacy media as they call etc.

So they have control and we're going to have to adapt responses to that and sometimes taking on an interview is one way of facing down the media that they criticise that's what they think so they say I'm going to put it out at 40 minutes, then.

I think organisations like the BBC or

Well, ok, we're so we're going to say well organised with will find that we will we will do that actually maybe we'll put out a 40 minutes in this case the BBC put out 10 minutes, but you can find BBC iPlayer resource management David thank you very much and Furious on the media.

Show we appreciate it Davids taxis available as we just been hearing.

Thanks very much as well the former CNN host and media commentator Brian stelter to Gladstone who hosts of wnyc on the media podcast thanks due to my colleague from BBC News Lucy Williamson who joined us earlier you can hear this edition and all editions of the media show on BBC Sounds app for now.

Thanks for listening.