Read this: Jeremy Bowen: seeing through the fog of war

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome well.

I guess today needs very little introduction Jeremy Bowen join the BBC in 1984 as a journalism trainee he's gone on to become a celebrated foreign correspondent and one of the best-known face is a BBC News where is currently the international editor.

Thanks very much for asking me for front lines of journalism builders.

You're on the most difficult stories.

You've covered one of those is certainly Ukraine and we must start there because this week.

We heard the news that the air by journalist arm and shoulder that died this week.

I told by Russian artillery he was 32 years old and this is a conflict.

You know very closely yes, and he was killed somewhere in the east somewhere near back motorway.

I've spent the time to as last there at the end of last year these things I tried checking unfortunately in all the years.

I've been doing this.

I've known quite a few people have been killed and I was reading his Twitter account today and if you go back just a few days to May 1st he's posted a video where he and some soldiers which he's who are accompanying him a line down and he's describing than a pure terra as artillery fire comes in in those moments and you must have been in those moments there must be a decision to make sure whether you stay where to give you in a situation, where sells the landing around you don't have a choice is just got to put your head down trying to take over and over again soon and none of them hit you know I've had moment so I was the warring Grozny Chechnya in the winter of 94/95 and I got caught in an Astra and I

In the snow listening to the explosions all around me thinking you're going to die now or you going to suffer excruciating pain from being hit on his had a flat jacket and helmet and I was hunting down behind the next to the sort of 6-in kerbstone because it was only thing I could find I could just here these Explosions that seem to go on for ages, but people were about 30 seconds from the cluster bombs the guys.

I've been talking to some Chechen Rebels were killed and I just left them just before so yeah, I mean near death experiences sadly.

Have a part of it and I'm a bad point you don't have a choice about stair go you just please let us all be over at the end of it and when you're lying in the snow.

Do you have a moment to reflect on the situation you've ended up in whether you regret being there.

I thought to myself I remember it well thinking you really.

Miss this one up Jeremy this is you just pushed it too far you posted too far.

We shouldn't be that.

We shouldn't be hanging around anyway, but we will promise someone the lift we had a freelance working would be giving us some material.

You know they've been there strikes already.

It was a square in the middle of the city the buildings hospital is on fire.

You know the kitchens were saying things like it is a good day to die and no but we were waiting for this guy to emerge and he was late after that with like 25 pieces of crap morning vehicle and all kinds of it.

Was you know there are many moments like that, but my god when they're happy.

You said you don't forget them.

I'm sure you don't and how do they affect the decision-making that follows as your career continues to direct you towards well for me and I discuss with colleagues who had similar trajectory.

Many years I think when you started out.

You don't know what to expect and then you get a massive burst of adrenaline and huge highs and lows as well of course but mostly highs to begin within the something awful happens to you at the first War I went to Angel salvadore.

I thought it was in my hand warmer.

It was incredible you know in the jungle and in the middle of the city and drinking on the terrace afterwards swapping war stories with all these other people and we'll talk with pretty cool.

Probably quite soon.

I realised that the only reason for doing this is to have a strong giornalisti comparative is often we were coming to people's lives at their worst moments the lowest abs numbers are family just been killed and we be asking him about it.

Well.

You got to have a good reason for doing that otherwise as the worst kind of Sword of intrusive the job.

Is highly inclusive at times and time has gone by and friends of mine have been killed and I've seen the all things over many years I get no boss whatever from being in the situation night really try very hard to avoid being somewhere like that when I have been working in Ukraine with very good team and a lot of time with a camera man Fred Scott who's but my age 3060s done all the things I've done over many many years and I'm telling you that we want to leave to get out of a film we have to do and get out of that so there's been a shift between the young man in El Salvador and the side the older man reporting in the job.

You're doing changed as well some things never change the fundamentals of journalism.

Don't change you still have to be accurate you still have to be on time.

You still have to hit your deadlines you still have to be empathetic and very important who still going to be impartial particularly important for us guys are the BBC but yeah the tentacle side has changed on unbelievably I the first time I went to Afghanistan because when the soviets we're leaving in 89.

I think it was we arrived there with 1-ton equipment and to engineers had to spend 3 days rewiring the TV station before we could consider trying to get up pictures out onto some failing Soviet satellite now you do it all from a laptop basically using the complex has changed.

What about the content the journalism that you're producing.

Do you find yourself and just places in say Ukraine and feel a pressure to be constantly feeding social media or digital output rather than working right towards 11 report at the end of the day.

No, I don't feel that.

I don't feel that but and I probably someone insulated from those precious because I'm well.

I'm doing this for years.

I'm very experienced.

I'm quite long were the food chain BBC and I tend to do what I think is right rather than feeling pressure to do things that I don't want to do.

I think they funeral really awful place, so you're in back moving assuming you had a signal I would not dream of tweeting that I was there.

I don't want anyone to know I'm there.

I might well after was that I've been there said a few photos.

I think there's a good security as you not to do in terms of feeding lives.

No, I mean if my view now that after all these years is what I want to do.

I believe in more than ever I believe in quality not quantity.

I think they're just hitting.

Piano live deadlines and things well, there's a time and a place for that, but probably if you're back in Ukraine on the hotel roof if you're in some place in the field, then you could at your own pace get you describe some of the crucial relationships and you're doing this work particularly with the immediate crew.

You're working with but almost always within warzones.

You'll be in a place of conflict with the cooperation of at least one of the side.

How do you manage that relationship particularly when you are in the heat of battle and some of the people who are allowing you to be there are also maybe they offer a drink.

Maybe someone's injured and you help them.

How do you manage that relationship? Well? You're one of them things that has really changed that people I think all groups from Lidl I'm groups to government so much tighter control of the media in those areas.

They want to somehow control the message.

So they do like to keep a very close eye and insist on lots of permissions.

Just getting to someone.

Requires all kinds of permissions and permits to get in to get in there is power over but the only way you can really operate as a journalist is to realise that we are fairly power that's and you have to work around and within those structures with and build those structures and sometimes it requires.

He have to make certain compromises you no working in st.

Lucia in the days of modafinil these days and Syria when the Assad regime or another authoritarian plays you have to work within their system involves sometimes the lottery schmoozing, but when you mustn't do is compromise what comes out of it which is the journalism and if there are problems and things you can't see it's much is very important to be transparent and say it well.

We couldn't get that because I was asking about that.

Do you think the journalist in say Ukraine are transparent enough about the relationships around the system.

That is necessary for them to be there.

Do you think the the consumers of news understand that that's the equation.

Well, I don't know I mean some some people say that people might find it more interesting if we actually or into some of the you know the process.

I think we tend not to do it because we might think that processes.

That's a bit boring.

It's not really why where there's not about us.

You know I feel very strongly, but you have to be there was a situation for example last year when the Russians pulled out of house on in Southern part of Ukraine and and wanted to get in talk to the inhabitants about what it's been like see what the situation was and the Ukrainian said no one can go in and they block the roads that was because they were going around the City looking for collaborators, and they didn't like they didn't want to see them to touch on the fact that they could have been collaboration.

So course when they say.

And everybody tried to get it and we got in and following a convoy well.

They took away they threatened to take away people's press passes and they did take some away for a while though when you everything was working for one of the American newspapers.

Had just been presented with some kind of Medal of freedom by zelenska.

Take away his prescod.

I think they're giving them all back.

We lost one or maybe two for a few days, but it's a warning shot a lot of it to the personalities of the people who make the rules that's what I mean about working around system and you have to push the system because otherwise you just do as you're told as a reporter you're getting nowhere Radio 4 is called the frontlines of journalism and you for your expenses covering war but you also explored some fundamental questions about journalism The Pursuit of truth in particular, and when I was listening to the first few episodes, I was thinking.

Is there a problem here that journalist the wrestling with how to get to the truth and how to share it but perhaps their audiences are as concerned as they once were with what is true.

Well.

I think the one consequence of the current Media landscape in the media landscape work and I have probably forever and developing all kinds of different ways that we can't predict the particularly is there is so much opinion flying around and social media is a series can be a series of Echo Chambers and there's plenty Of Evidence the other people like to listen to watch what they like America is the best example of that you know if you're a trump supporter you you get all the stuff you need for fox and if you're on the other side of politics if you watch MSNBC you're not quite right on these people awful.

So that that's not really I mean that aspects of journalism about it, but it's also about opinion.

Do you find the level of scepticism that directed at your journalism tiring? It's a bit tedious really but yeah, yeah because I mean I'm honest journalist.

I do not meet up.

There was an incident in Ukraine last year when I was I was I was I didn't press the camera in a prone position it so having to someone behind we stood up and there was a huge thing on Twitter about how I was faking it and you know people did little memes where it was pathetic was like yeah.

I didn't engaged to begin with but then I saw something like 70000 likes.

I don't know got to say something I spoke to people here.

No more about social media than me and I thought you were going to say something so I said I said look this isn't true and you can say whatever you like about well.

I'm doing but you also insulting all the ukrainians because they were people being killed by that day you were.

Escape that schelling and you know if you want to really cool them by implication you welcome to a but I think some people do it because they just said lampooning another that there was an agenda which is they don't believe the kinds of things that we do and one of the ways of counting that is something you've already alluded to which is being more transparent about how you were showing how you come to produce the journalism that you have to do more we have to do more of that you've done a bit of that but as a as a goal I understand it but in practical terms.

What does it mean? How do you do that within the constraints of how journalism is produced weather is on the News at Ten on the BBC on the BBC News website or in tweed saw all of the different places you were well in broadcast journalism and daily television news which is why I've spent most of my time doing at the BBC there lots of constraints.

The time you have is one access is a another you can't put the pieces together if you haven't got the pictures and then when you got the pictures of young got a decent slot you can't get everything.

See you soon.

Silly.

Don't want to go into all the stuff about how you got your accreditation least I don't think so maybe there's a place for that in an accompanying social media message your website, please, but I think that if there is something that you want to see in your stopped from seeing it or they try to manipulate what you're doing.

You need to expose that I think you need to say well.

We will get to x village where these but we weren't allowed to but we were able to see this and a problem with this well, what can we learn from it? Maybe we learn some aspects of the or willing to be that person you need to show that maybe might have a government minder next to you and that clearly affects the way people speak so there's several parts of this equation is the procedure.

Is there transparency but then there's also impartiality? Would you talk about in details within your series and you had a series very interesting exchanges with with a number of your guests and the examples that was highlighted.

Not just by you but some of the people who was speaking to you was an article you wrote for the BBC in March about the Iraq invasion of 20 years ago and you called it a catastrophe and maintaining this is an impartial conclusion and some of the people you weren't being was saying hold on this is an opinion.

So how do you explain that difference? Well? I think it was all about the 20th anniversary the invasion of Iraq and 2003 and if on invasion plus one one day.

I said this is a catastrophe.

This is going to be a catastrophe would have been my opinion but 20 years later when you seen the consequences of it unfold and continue to unfold within terrible.

10 terrible detail then I think you're perfectly entitled say year was catastrophe and it turned into an incubator for the hardest word in the rise of Isis tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of people have died etc.

Etc.

Etc.

That's catastrophic catastrophe definition of the word and I've I've used repeatedly deliberately these words don't slip out because some people might think what you can describe.

What's happened and then you could let others decide what word should be attached to it that the description is partial but the addition of a single word steps into something more.

I think that in my role as the BBC international editor is my Duty 2 times to say well actually guys two and two does he play for as a very senior editor to do that more than some journalists.

I think that's why some people the BBC

This isn't some people aren't yeah.

I think that's part of the thing that not to bring in.

I mean I have loads of my opinions as I get hold of even more of them, but as you get older but but the thing is is that it's not my opinion what I have to show I got to that conclusion and so that piece that I said it was a catastrophe was about 15 or 1800 words basically describing why was one big story cupboard? I would imagine the store you covered the most in the last 1000 Years of the conflict between the israelis and the Palestinians and sometimes.

I'm watching your reports.

I think there's history which Jamie happs doesn't have space to get into his day-to-day reporting and if we have the BBC don't provide that.

Do we risk in some ways compromising our reporting by not providing that context where the loads on the israelis and the Palestinians over the years now for 10 years is probably more the consequences jihadist some things like that in Syria and Iraq but the history is really important if you work in the Middle East history is alive there in a way that people in really get so how do you get into all of that and the problem is you can't really always put in her sort of newsreel section black and white, but this is how we got here guys.

Be there isn't time and also I found over the years that produces off and find is a bit boring and they say what it's all very well.

Can we just nip out the archive section so the way to do this how you write it and how you talk to people you the way to I think to in a news report to get the correct kind of analysis and context in is by user.

The drive of the talking television news that the drive of the pictures that you get from The Event and maybe some archive if you can work it in the bind with a very carefully worded script and carefully chosen clips, which will enable you to tell the story and at the same time explain it rather than I think mistakes happen sometimes when I first was Middle East edit about 15 years ago the people were doing the Editors thought it was the first time even had the job and editing programs who say when we got keys from Simon so Jeremy can you do the explain that so I said what so if you didn't get that Joe is not going to explain it.

So I'll do it was always I should get on material and I should then build this construct and that's why I tried it doesn't always work, but I think when it does work it works.

And he mentioned that you spend a lot of last 10 years talking about your head is some of the hardest would have been in Syria particularly when the Islamic state group was taking a lot of territory and that leads me to something else to talk to you about which is your close encounters with really significant historical figures one of them is president Assad of Syria let's listen to a brief part of your exchange with them a few years back.

What about barrel bomb do you want to know if your forces using I know about the army they use bullets and bombs.

I haven't heard of I'm using bottled or maybe looking for large bag full of explosives and projectiles which I dropped from helicopters and explode with devastating effect a lot of testimony about this.

We have gone and bought it, but you wouldn't deny that included under the category of bonds are these barrel bonds which are indiscriminate weapons? No, there's no how do you deal with it?

You're doing an interview like that and the interview is simply refuting what you're saying keep telling a lie and in the the series with done that exchanges actually the probe which is called the big.

Lie what you have to keep pushing you have to be sure of your your ground you have to be able to walk game with a bit in advance that interview with the sad really WarGames will probably save this and and then Sophie says this one you can answer counter with that and and bring up this proof or maybe this example and so working with others you know the team from hard Talk help me out and did a very good brief.

So you get these things which you push back album, but yeah if they're going to keep at it.

They're going to keep at it and in those moments on each side of the interview when you arrive when you're packing up both with.

the side but also good afternoon as well things interact with their colleagues about how they carry themselves absolutely Assad is incredibly polite in a old World Courtney way and leek to his feet when you get to the room will break his neck to make sure he's not the first person through the door after you and then he always have entered a few times and it gives you about 10 or 15 minutes one-on-one beforehand to have a little chat Gaddafi on the other hand you know he swept in the absolute caricature of his own image you know in a flowing ok robe aviator sunglasses slightly Spacey of the head of them massive convert a vehicle's so you know it's almost like being in the in the room with his spitting image puppet in the case of those two men you would also spent time reporting on the consequences of the actions of the

Government considerable amount and their victims, how did you Square the two men who are in front of you who was speaking to you with the parent conviction and what you knew to be the cause of their instructions.

Well, I tried to use it against them for example with Gaddafi he was saying my people love me.

They love me all.

I remember him saying they said in English and I said hang on a minute.

I was just earlier on today people were out on the streets of of Tripoli and they were protesting they know they were they were supporting me.

I said no.

They weren't they were saying down with Gaddafi it worked as you think you believed in his own propaganda you lived in a bubble butt so I think you can try and use things you've seen the great strength of the great strengths of being.

What is the UK have used your own eyes and your ears and you have proof that you then can show the people.

You're talking about two men constructing their own noted any government involved in any type of conflict will want to do that.

We're seeing that as well in the in the war and Ukraine do you think that the Western press has been to willing to see everything from the Ukrainian perspective because of how the complex has seen but the fact that putting began it unprovoked.

No, I don't think so you think there are some people you have been cheerleaders and but I think the the news organisations that have taken the coverage really seriously BBC CNN others that the British broadcasters the new of time.

No, I think they look at it very forensically however.

There is a weakness in what we doing that we cannot get anywhere near the Russian front lines that only allow their trusted people in there, but you are getting to events and people that we know war crimes tribunals for example are interested in in looking at and it's starting to become more frequent that the work of Germany

Required in those kind of legal environments is that something you're you're comfortable with it if request coming from the international criminal Court or whatever 4 separate trials in the former Yugoslavia war crimes process including raditz and carriages for the Bosnian serb leaders and I felt you on the great sort of cliches that report it say is they say people say what you do at the symbol bearing witness.

Well, I didn't say anything in the courtroom.

I wouldn't have said on her.

I didn't have any secrets.

I didn't blow any contacts, but what I did do I was going to a lot of detail about what we reported and what we saw and to be honest with you if that help put some of these war criminals Behind Bars I'm delighted about it.

She didn't feel that cross sign into something where a journalist is seeking an outcome that sounds like you were glad of the outcome.

I was closer.

I come here it was because I witness Crimes of War it's in people being killed at the orders of these people.

Yeah, course I was on a human level very happy about it, but happy I was satisfied that I had been part of a legal process which was as much as putting people in jail was about creating a record and that in the census what we do.

You know another journalistic.

Cliche.

Is is the first draught of history will the millions of pages of evidence play the accumulated at the war crimes tribunals are a massive resource for historians in the future and my reported as part of that because they accept a lot of what I did as evidence that was my reporting was fairly done one of the questions all journalists are themselves.

Is is it worth it and of course.

That's the most fundamental question when someone dies such as ra, my colleague in Ukraine this week.

How did you feel seen the Arab League allowing Syria to rejoin after a number of years you?

High profile interview with president Assad he's been investigated and criticised and examined in lots of different ways and he is coming back into the Fold how do I feel?

Picasso it coming hello, he's he's a fact of life there and the the his opponents have been beaten have been been quite a long time ago and I think they are lovely you know they are accepting the fact that Syria led by acid is a reality and they have their own reasons some of which might be seen as a bit sorted.

I'll grab it because go or to do with their their regional strategic interests for doing this and you know he's these the firmament and he whatever myself but I said he's been extremely tenacious and his country's broken hundreds of thousands of people a dead for 15 million have been displaced half of those are a refugees abroad.

You know the consequences of his water to hold on the power have been absolutely.

But he's still there and when you think not just of the interview that you did with him, but the risk that you and many other journalist working reporting.

What was happening in Syria does the fact that he still there does the fact that he is rejoining the arab league does the fact that his role in the world is being normalised undermine those in your mind at all.

No.

I don't think it does not at all.

I don't think it does it all because I think was worth doing was it's always worth doing and trying to explain things as they as they go along you know I was gosh.

It's 10 years ago now was that that time when in Damascus use chemical weapons and armour having threaten to take action if you cross the Red Line didn't and after that the Syrians were incredibly emboldened and it was a massive failure of Amir

Policy helped by by their allies as well because I never really know what to do there and and that was 10 years ago and I said is still there so it shows on this is something you might apply to Ukraine and Putin is that if you hang around you cannot last your enemies if you are from an authoritarian country with the Assad family senior to power in Syria more than 50 years ago 1970 and meanwhile American presidents every four years play selection and they just hang around.

I'm sure that's what I put in st.

Himself by they might be there forever the next.

I might not want to spend the money.

They definitely they were aware of the fact that democracy changes changes governments with reasonable pace in the west.

Are you covered Syria in your role of Middle East editon? You've now become international additive.

Essentially means you can cover any country in the world.

Is that right? Well? I might just some of my colleagues my everything I do the same about that but within reason and without and I'm having in my in my early career.

I'm was quite frequently as we saying the world news reporting pink-footed, so I don't I'm not that kind of person.

I don't have a wish to don't want the the victim to become the abuser the reason I mention your job title of alluded to this is to use your friends.

You are reasonably far up the food chaining BBC News Germany from journalism trainee Peter international.

I wonder how you assess the health of BBC News it's still here still a very big beast within the journalist firmament, but it's not the same as it was when you joined it in 1984 on my god knows what's the experience of BBC news now compared with back then we had.

Softer crisis, I think it's just part of the territory is the BBC as well as having loads of friends has enemies and people want to see us fail at times and sometimes.

We haven't been are best friends and with a x the BBC shoots itself in the foot as for BBC News it was much smaller back then because we did a fraction of the number programs that we did that we do now and there were they weren't all the networks that wasn't the social media and now the priorities digital and there's an infinite amount of space for four digit.

So it's a much bigger beast.

I would say he was going to tell her yes, I think it is I think I'll leadership is good.

I'm not this time might bbcper manager believe in the stuff.

We are one of the few organisations that despite all the awful cats that we've had to India and the way that the licence fee has.

Restricted by the government as a means of putting pressure on us we are they still have the resources to do a good job and get round the world and do that when I started at the American Legacy as they call them TV network CVs ABC mbc1 massive international news now.

You barely see them and we are much bigger international use particularly, then we were then and people all around the world tune into the BBC and isomers think back home in the UK people don't quite realised the around the world people rely on on what we do and if it's in good health.

It's also certainly in a highly politicised environment within that with the number of stories recently has it always been like that or do you think the the politics around the BBC the way the BBC News interacts with Westminster has become more volatile more potent.

I think the it's been speeded up buy things like the rise of the WhatsApp group.

We talked about this in my new series of Venice in conversation with Laura kuenssberg about how she was basically a running commentary practically on cabinet meetings of the height of the brexit psychodrama different people sending WhatsApp messages to do her as she put it they've got a bomb in their pockets now you can use in their phones.

There was always pressure you know David Dimbleby when he did a recent series there was remarkable piece of video was talking to Harold Wilson and how many questions and how was refuses to answer them and says you are not ever to broadcast this and it was broadcast until now they founded in deep in the bowels of take library in Brentford Worrell is these days the film library and and so was revealed long after the vrt.

So I think whatever that but I think that that thing.

Bit more febrile, I'm bit more feverish because of the way that the world is speed it up now.

It wasn't before you know there's this every time you go to those that we passed that statue of George Orwell down there and he says you know if Liberty means anything isn't one of his saying there's next to it.

It's something like in Liberty means anything it's the is being able to tell people think they don't want to hear and you tell people particularly people have passed things.

They don't want to hear and make them sometimes a little bit silly or dumb then like it and they're going to try and get them back.

And one aspect of the the politicised environment the BBC's in is there it's routinely accused of not being impartial is routinely accused of actually having a side on one story or another and the director-general Tim Davie is put an emphasis on impartiality the soon-to-be former chairman, Richard Sharp but nervous on impartiality has someone who's been doing impartiality for 40 years for the BBC today.

Did you take umbrage that the new leadership was saying look we still got work to do reminder you resting on your laurels, then you had it you will always got to be remember people.

I was a very young reporter the boss.

I had at the time telling me mentioning my very senior colleagues Martin Bell Brown Band at the time the guys who were 2030 years older than me saying saying about them, they don't they.

Do better and you've always got to try and do better and I see there's a very telling quote.

Ok, which I found in the research for the series another BBC director-general say green in 1965 and I quote listen the in the programme do the speech and he said impartiality did not does not mean by neutral about basic moral values truthfulness Justice freedom compassion tolerance he said we're not neutral about things like racism impartiality not mean some spurious neutrality you have she said this and he said that the truth lies somewhere in between it does not mean that what it means I become a journalist to be impartial I became a journalist to tell the truth and tell true and interesting stories and for me impartiality is a

A technique a discipline that enables I hope my reporting to have credibility and that's why the BBC makes a whole thing about it and to be honest.

I think it's a really important value to hold onto I think we've had it then we would be open to weigh more Chris's when we get home but just what did you make the tango the BBC got into over Gary Lineker

Well, I think it was probably supercharged by the fact that the the whole environment at the moment, you know the pressures on the BBC that the the accusations of lack of I think that was a problem there and so far is and they recognise that the way that they had to deal with it that Gary because of his job and his contract was in a different station to me.

I'm on the staff for the BBC I'm a journalist, so I'm subjected to if you like full fat impartiality rules on the question which was not properly to find really was if you're not someone in my position if you're a guy who gets handsomely rewarded for talking about football and you want them want to talk about something else will where's that particularly stand and I think they did the right thing to try and pull back from conflict and say lot we got to talk about this and make some proper rules bad and there's a review on the way and will hear that.

I just wonder you no listen to the series listen to you now.

You seem utterly convinced of impartiality of something which improves your journalism.

I don't doubt that for a moment have there been moment though, it's been hard where you've really come close to thinking on this.

This is the exception by talking detail about that in one of the programs on the Radio 4 Series and podcast series and it was in Sarajevo during the war 1990s to the war the seat and been going on for very long to kids who were killed by snipers during a botched evacuation wasn't much more than the baby other one was a toddler and then took a long story short there the funeral was shelled by the Serbs

And they were killed by The Sun or the evidence pointed to that and I was just I was not wet behind the ears.

I don't quite a lot of stuff stories by then and I was outraged.

I was absolutely outraged by the you know the obscenity of having kids children's home by these children have been looked after hiding behind gravestones as Motors with floating around them the grandmother of one of the dead kids had a massive holding her arm from a wound and we had such a big hole it took stuff to feel dressings into it and they disappeared into the holder arm and blood everywhere and I just thought this is absolutely barbaric and I'm going to say so get on my soapbox and say this isn't a soapbox or would it necessarily?

Justifiable outrage no, I thought I thought about it and I'll formulated the piece to camera in my mind and I had a look at the one I actually did it again today as about it because we're doing some tweets and that's one of them the video and and I thought no it's going to actually be a lot more powerful because it is so powerful if I just tell the story that's way more powerful than saying you know I'm really angry about this.

I'm really angry about this and I'm such an important.

I'm going to tell you how angry I am.

I'm really angry this is awful.

I'm so upset by

I mean so What it's not about me the thing is about being a reporter.

It is not about you and less.

You are specifically doing something that is branded.

This is my personal look at something.

It is not about me.

It's about them about the people who the story happens to so I thought myself you know what no just tell me what happened to these poor people.

It's going to have a lot more power and it did that wasn't stereo.

Sorry over many years ago.

I've been in Ukraine recently where you going next well.

I don't know really I'm probably be in Ukraine before the end of the summer.

I would have thought I've been in Ukraine once already this year been in Iraq this year been in Jerusalem as we speak there's you know I shouldn't hotting up situation going on and Gaza with everything has been happening.

There is really attacks on Islamic Jihad Islamic Jihad sending rockets into Israel

I've also as well as that's what I'm trying to do is international this was not just to reactive stuff, but I'm I'd like to get into some penis and bigger issues about some global things of things that happen around the globe like migration stuff like that.

We started talking about conflict.

We've ended up talking about conflict you may visit you describe the beginning of a conversation how you're not doing this for the thrill of it anymore that when you go you're very glad to be out of a dangerous situation.

Do you ever have the journalist equivalent of when a boxer gets to a point and they think I don't want to bring any more does the taxi ever turn up outside your house and you think actually I don't know if I want to go yeah, definitely.

I remember my children with small going to see them before I got on the early morning taxi to go to some place.

You know taxis outside.

It's 5 in the morning as I'm sleeping children and looking at them and thinking well.

I'm I going to see you again and the number of times that the taxi I live in South the taxi to get to Heathrow crosses Vauxhall Bridge and then goes along the embankment and I've been going along that road that for so many years too early flight so sometimes.

I think I'm not going to the levels do I really want to keep on doing this but actually what I what I used to tell myself then when I was even having a bite my sleeping kids.

I thought well.

No this is just your mind warning you about the worst in fact.

You know from your own experience that when you get there it won't be so bad.

They will be away through it.

And what you doing is important and I do think that if I have any credibility as a journalist it's because I have been prepared to see things for myself and take things second-hand and I think that's continues to be an important thing to do and I mean yes, I've got to say that when I was a young trainee at the BBC inexperienced correspondent who came in and he's finished work and he said you know it is such a relief to drive down the M4 and not turn left into Heathrow I have not yet at that point but I can see how one day you must be kept to that point however.

You know what if I was out if I'm staying at home and there's a story on the way should be doing like one of my colleagues.

I'll be thinking right sit down.

We'll be there people listening very glad that you are there Jeremy thank you very much.

Jeremy series frontlines of journalism is available all of the episodes are on BBC sounds right now as indeed are all of the recent episodes of the media Show Jeremy thanks again.