Read this: 'The craziest day in cable news history'

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome the coronation of King Charles just over a week away is going to discuss how the BBC should cover it the plugs been pulled on BuzzFeed news.

We'll talk about why this toy reveal something fundamental Media is being distributed on the internet and as you may want to seem like a car sun is out at Fox News Don lemon is out at CNN it wasn't the word of one commentator the crazy in US cable news history and we're going to start there with Ben Smith editor and chief of the news outlets my phone order of a new book called traffic plus the man who set up BuzzFeed news and then we'll get back in a minute, but first of all fox and tucker Carlson why do you think he's gone it's not really clear the leader of this impact of this movement and United States and one morning.

Install walking up and decided to get enough of it and just pick up on that point this is arguably the best-known and most influential TV news anchor in the USA this is no small decision for Rupert Murdoch know this is the biggest star bigger Star Wars most powerful one who seemed to think he was another he was he was bigger than the company it sometime so you may know the football particularly Manchester United no one's bigger than the club the club often used to remind.

It's stars.

I guess we're going to find out whether that's true A Fox News you know the one of these factors becoming his massive favour of those getting fired in betting into Oblivion there is again in Glendale Bill O'Reilly remember those names this through Hillary phrase editor-in-chief of the digital magazine slate and Rasmus kleis Nielsen is director of the reuters Institute for the study of journalism, Hillary how would you categorise Tucker Carlson as a as a

In the US and how do you categorise the scale of his departure I mean exactly Ben said it was an exciting news week with her leaving the network is really big news because you're such a feud loved by 10 million + 30 and remember how many litre in bed with exponentially larger than saying Cooper CNN every night, but also somebody people love to hate readers.

Love to have a lot of issues with energy and entertainer is the Eternal sea certainly was a journalist at some point is he still I'm curious a recent broken engagement may have something to do with the sudden departure of Doctor Who is apparently the favoured Fox News host of Rupert Murdoch brief.

That sort of a fun one to play with because I also agree.

He was publicly and privately exposing pretty hideous views and sensibilities for you whether it was just an adding up of garden radiator violations or there was something that took the server the edge well certainly something is drawn Rupert Murdoch to take the decision.

He's not scared eighth Tucker carlson's not commented a commented on it either let's bring you in Rasmus because one thing I think it's always difficult to gauge within the UK is the the influence cable news anchors within us Media in US politics because there's no obvious broadcast equivalent for that here in the UK is there no, that's true though.

There are roughly equivalent.

I mean I think the influence that the Daily Mail and to some extent the sun we all send UK public Life and politics is perhaps not so different from that of Fox News United States

Brands are very clear cleaning editorially they are very popular story of Claire about to start in in addition to making some investments in news reporting they also play an important role than what some call the average industry where the providers of the form of commentary on entertainment that to channel is there an older white male and right-leaning audience and perhaps being angry is 1 way consumer live from Tucker Carlson no he's not talking but he did talk to you Ben just around the time you launching your news platform semaphore let's hear a little of the exchange that you had with Tucker Carlson show and I think and maybe this is maybe I'm wrong but your audience enjoyed it when you can afford gasoline on the Spires not when you try to put them out in the nature of cable news ratings.

The nature of cable of other side of ratings driven business the cable news in general of years in particular.

Seriously you know basically makes it impossible to do anything else.

I love this.

I didn't TV for 27 years, but don't have a reading start getting one who works for me as work with me an email to the people in charge who have all the power has water you carry or doing wrong.

It's pouring gasoline on the first become holding accountable today's some of your exchange with Tucker Carlson just thought you going to the bigger picture.

He seems to be suggesting that he doesn't use email and doesn't have a TV which is quite a and.

TV news anchor is caught himself a journalist you always cast himself as being above it all that paying attention for reading and how did you find him to to deal with you were asking that clip about the model of journalism the model of TV news that he was pursuing and the Fox was pursuing do you think that the model still holds even if he's not doing it for fox departure from foxes foxes traditionally head colourful entertaining Republican Party to want to get elected and 210 serve the bottom line of the company that they work for somebody with something different.

He was leading a right-wing populist movement in the Republican party.

I don't think critically compared with the Republican party's wanderlust elevated marginal figures the great interested in viktor Orban at other not American figures and was really.

Call Lena Dunham them were pretty different and he was more he was maybe more UK than the Tories well.

That's a comparison of not heard made before let me bring you in here because I think a lot of people watching this from from a fire in the UK would be thinking well.

Where does this Move by fox and the departure of Tucker Carlson fit into right wing American politics with the with the election going down the coming down the track it seems to me that right and centre politics in the US is not as simple as it once was with different types of Republican summer line with Donald Trump's son not is there something similar happening with right-wing media that it's becoming more fractured more difficult to describe in one way.

I mean I think it's come up around the Tarka conversation.

It is like could this mean a change her fox which is really the dominant most mainstream right-wing news platforms.

Winter's off to the raid and then some more kind of I guess you can take closer to the centre of places that have news and information.

It is catering to a crossover audience with dogs, but I think you know it's hard for me to imagine that this change with fox leaving the network is going to mean a dramatic centrally that would somehow still over were broadly into right-wing Media I mean there's the ratings are there foxes in I don't expect to be dramatically changing its philosophy that hope all is wishful thinking on the part of some other people out there, so I'm sort of waiting to see what headsprouts up because it could be works and I won't even realise what I mean by worse, but there is always worse out there or something that was surprised in a new way to bend.

Wizard of operating on his own creating a movement behind his ideas of the the replacement theory of you know what sort of bringing up minority voters replace white voters in and all of these things that motivated and happened to that grievance that we've talked about here too and I don't see that going away and you know perhaps even see more of it if we end up dinner in another sounds just frozen a little there, but thanks for the postman and Hillary of use the word in relation to what type of person has been doing we will follow very closely what he in fox do next so what do I ask the three of you all about that and by the way if you just joining us with their prices Nelson from the reuters Institute free from the digital magazine slate and Ben Smith who is the editor-in-chief of semaphore and also the author of the book traffic I wanted to ask you about another is.

News because it's no more this was a news organisation when it burst onto the scene at did things in a new way, when put it says it created a new breed of journalists and appear to understand more than most how to make the most of the internet but operation was closed sometime back and now the whole thing has gone Ben you set up BuzzFeed news for Janet understand you before we get the details understand Hillary the bentrider.

Hi you is that right? I would say go that far down the line, but he did call me to suggest that perhaps there was a to talk about working together and before you the details of what you did Ben Rasmus just give us a peer-to-peer portrait for us of the environment into which BuzzFeed decided to create a news organisation or a News website in the early 2010s.

I mean I think from the point of view of people working in the media was a moment.

Where offline audiences were declining the online audience was maybe a mile wide Bolton in sleep and not growing nearly as fast as offline audience were weird according to there is a real sense of Fear in the journalism profession in the newspaper industry was there even a future for journalism at the same time that phone companies charge video sharing site and about moment.

I'm particularly Facebook as a social Media platform with growing its potential in terms of user engagement and of course BuzzFeed was one of the pioneers of trying to Leverage distribution opportunities that social media in particular Facebook offer in return for access to content so BuzzFeed invested.

Heavily in that bill you know a lot of Engagement on social media then set about trying to figure out ways of bringing up revenue or engagement to actually cover the cost of the journalism and content creation that they did an initially I did that with a range of content but not news but then bend.

Call and you set up and use operation for BuzzFeed tell us the product you are trying to create the time and it was when I assumed wave of social media Facebook Twitter Pinterest WhatsApp crashing through Media relief for all their lives and who's this new space spending enormous amount of time and and and we saw the challenges.

How do you create a news organisation? That's totally native to that world that focused on making things to do in stories that was spread on Facebook and Twitter etc and were pretty successful, add.

I think we knew it was something in the truth that we are very dependant and we never found really a way to get away from there.

I think in the end of the social platforms from news and just declined very very abruptly over.

New Year's very difficult general in it before then, it's operation for a while.

There was a swagger and success to what you and your colleagues were doing in here.

Are you watching very BuzzFeed news was doing and reading your account and others accounts and it reminded me a little bit my experiences of the original.com boom in the late 90s where there seems to be quite a lot of money in around was that was that your observation and it was really it was exciting and I do think even if a lot of these projects haven't worn out or work even if they lasted for one year or 10-years.

There was a lot of learn and there was an expansion of our industry and one of the point I tried to make an IPS that was brave was places like BuzzFeed news.

Really did to create more pathways for people to become.

Alice and participate in journalism that but more diversity to your industry, it just brought a different range of experience that our newsrooms now or you know to the best of our ability operating that Talent that was a grown in these kind of exciting boom times that said the flip side was we talk a lot here about the pivot to video places underwent.

I was part of that especially when I was at huffpost in we we build a big robust video team to create video really specifically for Facebook and the challenge there is it videos expensive especially original video it's more time consuming was a lot of exciting but then when you do something at the whim of a platform.

That's not your own.

They can change their mind and say you know if this isn't really working for us.

We would rather have this kind of thing.

Only you have all of these skilled people who may be artists Guild is making this other thing or maybe it's not what they want make an app is challenging for Newsroom culture in all these other issues that we talk about an I found that as a Newsroom l.

Really challenging when I came to slate a year ago.

I was so really we don't have a video of Chima and in fact with slated back in the day was invest Evelyn audio.

They never really had the pivot to video and that really critical to our business on his sleep is well known for its wonderful podcasts and extensive audio offerings and this exposure to the power of the platforms if Rasmus although me to borrow the title of his book on this subject is something is Hilary Benn Juventus size 2 and it was outside in the statement from Jonah peretti the the guy is set up BuzzFeed who said he had chosen to over investing BuzzFeed news because of their work but said that he had.

Big platforms would provide the distribution of financial support required to support premium free journalism purpose-built for social media and razzmatazz people listen to Ben and to Hillary and payment from Jonah pretti, they might be thinking why did news organisations ever put this much power and influence in the hands of platforms over which they had almost no influence well.

I mean I think first of all we should recognise that many news organisations didn't do it.

They didn't best in social distribution because they wanted to reach audiences.

They were reaching otherwise or service system new ways, but they didn't make the level of investment and they certainly didn't assume that the future of the company.

It would be based on for-profit companies committing and money to support their journalism so many puppies across the world so much more cautious approach even if I tried to make something of the opportunities.

That's not a criticism of the beds that were made.

there is a job during this year, but he was a new entrant and going head-to-head with encumbrance would be a even more difficult probably than making something in work, but it wasn't that bed didn't pay off and we have a very interesting situation here where if we look back at the last 1015 years arguably the most successful new sites in the world are almost all outside the United States in terms of establishing sustainable business models for impressive innovative and interesting front of journalism that are sustainable in the long run and not an investors or Legacy Media who are growing afraid of their own mortality following terms of $90 into sustaining these bets you'll know where to try on Spain in Spanish and Latin America mediapart France are many sites like they're supposed the world that have built a sustainable basis or on digital journalism, Nottingham to Bingham

Nottingham restaurant Ireland social media as essential to be thinking that it might pay off only if I've got to bring you back in here because your party talking about BuzzFeed news 1000 years ago, but last year you set up a new news platform semaphore and you've written about the end of what you call the social web which is essentially what we've been describing a network consumption is driven by social media platforms have Now created this new news organisation.

How did your calculations shift? What are you building now? What do you think is in place of the social? Yeah? I mean I guess that just respond to rest my mate.

I think it is certainly true that a number of places.

You can have skipped social media and were very successful Adam that was true in the US is a bit very successful and recently sold for a billion dollars company that there are there some mothers that basically didn't make their fundamental bed and social the way we did.

And you did enormous amount of journalism Emily when the changes and consumers with a w in ultimately the end of the movie is about people saying they don't like it anymore.

I don't want to be there any more this is this is the set of machines human preferences and it's and where do I think there was a moment of orally seduced by the wide open choices and infinite variety of information and you could get into the people now.

Obviously feel very overwhelmed about and alienated by us and the opportunity is to say you know and that sort of problem that dissolve is how how do you give people something they can trust and connect to directly how do you know? How do you help to search navigate this crazy amount of information that there is a that? You know that.

And just before we're going to talk about the coronation of King Charles III at the moment but I must ask you you were at BuzzFeed when it was offered hundreds and hundreds of millions of Dollars by Disney for the company and you've written about how you are.

Keen on BuzzFeed saying know which it did do now you reflect on it.

What do you think about about that advice? You know I'm basically it's not a business.

So I was very proud of the journalism.

We did 3 years after and doubt that we would be able to do that sort of thing if we were essentially focused on helping Disney modernise is website one of the dumbest business decisions my history of Media from the perspective of shareholder value to turn down 604.

You're the cheapest you have a business partner who is overseeing the the running of the business pauses for a moment leave BuzzFeed from Omagh going to talk about the coronation of King Charles

Ben and Holly and Rasmus are going to stay with us the coronation is on Saturday May 6th of course.

There's a huge event for the media in perhaps especially so for the BBC Graham Smith CEO of the campaign Republic he wants to replace the monarchy Republic wants to replace the monarchy with an elected head of state Graham here in the media Studio with us.

Are you reading the letter to the BBC in the last few weeks asking for a review royal coverage with specific reference to the coronation.

How do you think the BBC should go about it, but I think in the same way that it covers any other public institution such as Parliament sample with complete detachment.

I think the I mean by speaking the 2 biggest complaints I guess I have about BBC coverage of the first layer takes.

What is a minority interest and projects.

It is a majority interested implies to its cover the whole countries celebrating was there not we know this from extensive polling and it also fails to hold.

To account so it doesn't really get into the more serious issues very much and he was quite a lot of serious stories of the come out through other parts of the media so in terms of the car and lots of things to discuss around the accession around the the king his character his record and go to ask about no some fairly serious accusations as well around then that should be part of the things to pick up.

I'm not sure the BBC's however suggested that every single person in the country is in favour of the of The Royle Family BBC Ulster BBC if anyone could contribute to this discussion weather BBC executive or BBC reporter in the BBC declined but it gave us a statement saying will believe I report his fair and Julian partial and news always seeks to reflect a range of viewpoints are royal coverage.

We will report on all aspects of the coronation of the BBC know you're saying it's not asking sufficient questions of the royal family just in the last few days.

Discussion you to pass on on Radio 4 on Sunday there was the today debate last night on Radio 4 Nicky Campbell's on a phone in on 5 live.

There was Panorama on Monday night all of these and different included people who have questions and concerns about the royal family there is sometimes these discussions, but I'm in the broad-brush and when I said you get to minority interest as a majority interest didn't say that the BBC says that everybody supports and celebrates it but you know only 9% and he asked about the Coronation 1.15% on another bottle and if you watch BBC coverage the impression that gives is that this is a national celebration with said we going to do about what people doing to celebrate.

Can we also talked to be interested in that we can trade number to you'll be aware of BBC survey that found that 58% of people support the monarchy overall, but what?

He suggested as you want a diversity of viewpoints in your suggesting.

This is black or white and as such hasn't the list of examples.

I've just given you satisfied your Desire for that diverse viewpoints to be reflected.

This is this is one brief period of time.

I think the during the course of the Year every year and even when we have the death of the queen of the section of the king.

There was almost no dissenting voices.

There was almost no discussion debate about the exceptional channels.

Can you record or whether or not? This is acceptable and during the course of the large part of the BBC's coverage today is largely critical and lacking any diversity of voice and you'll be where the BBC would contest that that characterisation bring you in here because there are challenges for the BBC is a national broadcaster as a public.

Broadcaster and author journalistic organisation to both cover and national events and report on that national event.

Yeah, I mean the editorial approach.

Generally to do in process is to index it to the balance of of party politics and electoral politics and caused that becomes a little bit hard when it's not about the daily coverage of electoral politics but about other events that strongly about even though they may not come and universal support and respect there a few things in life do so this can be you know World Cup football Olympics or in this case it could be the monarchy.

I mean I think it's entirely doesn't to child to be seem to have it paid about how it carries Sultan Society both editorial Leah in in news and it's brought her out, but I'll note that in all my years of research in this area.

I can't recall a single the bait in which a politician or campaign organisation said the prom with the BBC is too much attention to me and my phone.

It almost seems to be the opposite.

So you know it's just interesting that these criticisms always seem to be about more me basically as we like the same music and early about you know that's your mother people.

That's not the criticism completely and characterisation of the complaint and complain to the BBC projects.

What is the interest as a majority interest and does failed to hold to account example of which numbers one way or the other suggesting that that the interest in the monarchy and support 4 monitors and minority interest difference between they are happy to retain the monarchy and people are actually wanting to support it being Fusey astic about it and that's the difference.

Let me bring in Brent Smith here.

Just for the end of the program because Ben when you're in charge of BuzzFeed you were telling us before we came.

You have you had an idea of doing a different type of coverage didn't work for you.

You like your gas that suppose I'm a small I Republic in which every right to be being American and problem is the internet love the Royal then I assume the basic reason the BBC put some on all the time because people love to watch it and they change the channel when you start criticising them and I think that's that's certainly what we found that the internet the new place in the UK we're gonna have to leave it.

Thank you very much to all of you, Graham Smith Republic Ben Smith Ada 24/7 for author of a new book traffic Hillary Freya editor-in-chief of the digital magazine Slater from the reuters Institute for the study of journalism and the author of the power of the platforms remember this edition and all editions of the meteor shower available via BBC sounds but from me and from the team for this program at least goodbye.